Skeptic Project

Hey been at med school found sometime to get on the CS site.

Before I get into things I'd like to pose a question to people on the CS forums and anybody else on their. What corruption in the monetary world could be carried out in a resource based economy? any new forms of corruption could develop in a RBE setting based on TVP? Any other thoughts on it?

Alright going onto the topic of money of course I will be talking about the Zeitgeist movement. At that the Zeitgeist movement would advocate that money is bad or that what they are saying is that money is "outdated". Well lets debunk this right now money isn't outdated and it's still currently in use and working very well at that :)

People who say that money is outdated are living in a conspiracy world or a very science fiction type of world. I'm sure some logical conspiracy response from the typical zeitgeister will be... Well money is bad and outdated because in africa, in asia, in walmart, and in mexico, and people are poor as well cause of money. My response to them is get a job but not only that stop complaining about other countries and simply focus on yourself and at that take the Ghandi route and be the change you want to see in this world. If you have such a problem don't get people to join your cult, don't scream about all the problems in the world and everything that's bad because their happens to be some good things in this world as well as the bad. At that money isn't bad.

Sure their is all sorts of bad things coming from money from embezzling, to ponzi schemes, to some-type of corruption with some sort of company. Their is good things as well with money such as trading skills and services for money which leads to cars being built, bridges built, roads maintained etc... To say that a resource based economy will save everything and will be perfect or is better than money is truly emphasizing the words "ignorance is bliss" to a key.

One point towards the venus project is.... A lot of the corruption with money we do have can be conceptually taken over and adapted towards a resource based economy. From the black markets we do have, to embezzling (might be possible to carry over to RBE), to a much broader concept which is hoarding of resources... How can one say a RBE is better than money if it's not even tested... This is like a religion in many respects it's like believing a heaven without actually going to visit before hand.

yes again money has bad things but it also has good things as well. Money in all respect without doing much research on the topic more than likely started out as a legitimate form of payment and eventually turned into and evolved so to say tot he extent that it is today. What makes you think that RBE will not evolve into something else? This is very silly to believe it won't if you hypothetically believe that it will solve all problems for maybe 10 seconds before corruptions find it's way.

No I'm not saying their is no hope for human kind. I find that I have anarchist ideals after talking with Eric and Edward for a bit. I have lived and believed in the anarchist ideals nearly my whole life without having the word "anarchist" in my vocabulary. I believe things will change organically and I find RBE to be a hook line and sinker for fools and at that the zeitgeist movement is *laughable* trying to implement based on conspiracy theories is a joke. Things happen organically and gradual, we simply do not have things that will materialize resources out of air. Things will happen so gradual that no one will even notice, that if and when money gets "outdated" their will be no parades about it, their will be no celebrations, as it simply comes in and stays it will simply be and be accepted at that as well as hardly noticed but always used whatever it is that eliminates money. Until then money is still a great resource that has developed organically and has been proven to adapt to change it's been around for thousands of years; that's proof enough how useful, adaptive this concept is and how simple it is. Money helped us get us where we our toady and I wouldn't doubt in the next thousand years we will still be using some form of monetary exchange. I guess I expect TZm to be around for a thousand years before the change happens (just joking) and I'd expect them to have statues of Fresco and Peter Merola worshiping them as gods as well (wish I was joking about that part).

Don't worry about the money because it isn't evil. Start doing things to better human kind. Make and build projects. Don't talk about doom and gloom when you do nothing to solve these problems once so ever; instead start doing something or your nothing but promoting Peter Merola's movies and nothing else. TZM and TVP needs to drop the RBE concept or it will be always a complete laughing stock (after doing some thought on this). Their is a reason money has lasted this wrong and that's exactly why it's still being used and not "out of date" like you would like people to believe in that obvious lie.

I'm glad to see Venus and possible TZm are supporting the open source concept which is always a good thing to be able to maybe not admit they were wrong about open source not playing a part to supporting in a way which is what RBOSE, Open Ecology has been doing from the start. Glad TZM and TVP eventually agree with RBOSE about this concept :)

Well said.

I've seen a little of what an RBE world could be like:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1309201/95k-year-benefits-family-12-homed-1k-week-house.html</p>

In my mind, an RBE future, is one with money, lots of it!

> My response to them is get a job

Totally agreed.

Jobs, are the way forward, for us to build anything.

We need to be finding them, creating them, helping each other get them, starting businesses. (I quite like the idea of profit sharing ones myself..)

> How can one say a RBE is better than money if it's not even tested...

Indeed.

I can't wait to test various RBE style solutions myself, starting in virtual worlds where the consquences of things going bad isn't so bad compared to real life. (MMORPG here we come!)

I notice RBEF is keen on the testing part, and recently some of their folk got 'banned' by TZM after some mods poked their nose into a perfectly good debate about the economic model of an RBE and started to through folk in what appeared a, don't talk about this subject here thing. (Though could have just been, once anything gets heated, we ban people, no matter if the subject they are talking about is rather important, rather than use proportional response to try and change peoples behaviour..)

A common theme in virtually all groups that I've seen trying to improve the world is a lack of money, and a lack of ability to earn it.

Fix that, and I reckon you will be in a far better position to fix the world when you can afford to build things, as its things we need that make change.

At least in the internet age many things are very cheap now..

Thats a, lets go and create businesses online as it can be a very cheap solution to earn money.

Excuse me why I go and try and be the UK's version of Bill Gates & Donald Trump ;-)

My thoughts are, eve if peter is right about how bad things are now, they are still better that what things used to be like. People have many more rights and protection then they did during the industrial revolution, we no longer employ children to work in coal mines simply because they are desperate for money. Also things are even better then the middle ages, where you had no chance what so ever of getting a head in life if you were a simple peasant.

Today, if you have the drive, you can push forward and become anything you want to be.
Really though peter couldn't say much about today, what he did complain about was just a pretext to us all getting RFID chipped and becoming the north American union in 2008.........oh wait its 2010 now.

Side note.....
According to peter the bankers control ALL the money, then they start wars to make more....but if they have it all anyway whats with the fake wars??

> What zeitgeisters have to realize is talk is nothing if no one is building

Indeed.

I saw a recent idea of one of them that on the face of it is brilliant, except they decided to use it not to generate any money...

http://www.lazeitgeist.com/advertise</p>

Now, if they just used the idea to instead generate money, they could be like this kid:

http://www.mobile-marketing-blog.net/2010/08/16-year-old-millionaire-turns-to-mobile.html</p>

Why, I'm even going to copy the idea myself, and in time replace the adverts on my own forums, with adverts from my own service and make even more money.

If Z folk did just this simple thing themselves, they would have money to build this RBE world they want.

Else, it will just cost someone to run a server for no use whatsoever, except to show the world how they spend money, rather than make it..

there needs to be a medium of exchange because people value things differently and bartering would just not work in this age we live in. if we didnt have currency we'd find something else to keep track of our produce and labours, like bottle caps or twigs or IOU's (essentially what money is anyway)

@ Cyborg Jaysus!

To address how we could track consumption in an RBE

TED Speaker Jesse Schell - forgive the NWO-implied title, this is youtube, nothing to do with moi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nka-_Mhp7f0

@TeeZedem as much as your attempting to "revert" the system into a form of stability which is very respectable, as I myself see you got most of your ideas and opinions from the zeitgeist movie I will not get into to much but I believe your more or less just like all the other zeitgeisters saying hey what about all the starving people in Africa. Their is someone starving in the world, we gotta feed them!?! More or less TeeZedem as much as Peter Merola would like to think he's the king with the world on his egoistical self-appointed shoulders he certainly has no control over it. Worry about yourself, progress your own knowledge you certainly cannot change a system, nor can the zeitgeist movement but I will get more into this towards the bottom where I'll talk about RBE.

Also when you mention China and their interests or in that any country really it's one system that has developed organically to fit it's needs. Therefore although it's a good suggestion America needs to develop it's owns system that it can understand and digest and I personally believe a type of organic system will emerge. It's kind of like asking Warren Buffet or Donald Trump how they make their millions/billions, they certainly are not going to tell use how they do it, so how can adopting something the Chinese government do help, I highly doubt we understand entirely what they do. I do know some aspects that are not read through google per sey about china reverse engineering most of it's manufacture companies based off american ones, and in simple note America doesn't reverse engineer anything in a timely manner and that happens to be something in the Chinese model that's unspoken of. I believe things need to again happen organically as that is probably the best bet. This kind of reminds me about economist they can often tell people why a company is successful but fall short as to why a company fails. It's easier to explain success then explain failures for an economist if it was "that easy" to simply adopt another system we would of done it by now as much so as to become a Donald Trump or Warren Buffet.

When you talk about "What about my job?" sure that's one possibility unfortunately I cannot read the future I can only make it :)

About RBE, If you agree with my statement that "I actually agree with the comment that money will fade gradually and how there will be no parade when it does.",then why start a RBE, it sounds like you don't have to much faith into the RBE from the beginning or you wouldn't have made such a statement also sounds like your attempting to "force" a RBE or start one up where one isn't at but those are of course accusations. Not to get into discussing RBE to much what makes you think RBE is going to work? Is it because Dr. Peter Josef Merola and Dr. Jacque Fresco says it is? This reminds me of something I value ideology wise even though their clever statements to me I find their always right on the money (no pun intended) . I'm talking about Murphy's law. Here are some quotes from it "If anything can go wrong, it will", "If there is a possibility of several things going wrong, the one that will cause the most damage will be the one to go wrong", "If anything just cannot go wrong, it will anyway", If anything just cannot go wrong, it will anyway, "Enough research will tend to support whatever theory." etc... Basically RBE will have it's flaws like the monetary system most likely have equal flaws like the monetary system. You neglected to talk about forms of monetary corruption that could conceptually be carried on in RBE. In general shit happens, just because you have different shit doesn't mean their is potential for corruption. I'd suggest stop talking about it and doing it TeeZeedem, I'll borrow a quote from Peter Molyneux if it's such a HOT stock tip then why are you not buying the stock for yourself? You only make it a HOT stock tip because you deem it so. Action speak louder than words, you think RBE works then prove it, if you believe RBE will be the best thing ever then do it, if you believe their will be no forms of corruption with RBE then do it, in general stop talking about it and do it...

back to this statement "I actually agree with the comment that money will fade gradually and how there will be no parade when it does." Then their is no need for a Zeitgeist movement and you all can just go about your business and drop zeitgeist altogether. Until your actually doing things to attempt to enhance humanity not in a philosophical, conspiracy theorist but in a physical sense build shit the Zeitgeist movement will always fail. As long as you have Dr. Peter Joseph Merola, Dr. Fresco as the leaders of zeitgeist movement and the venus project it will fail. As long as the only thing the Zeitgeist movement does is mainly a advertising platform for Dr. Peter Joseph Merola to say the economic system is bad, that 9/11 was caused by the economic system, that gravity is a authoritative dictatorship, or other very stoner like talk coming from Peter is why it will fail. The fact that people beelive in what Dr. Peter Joseph merola and Dr. Fresco say like the bible and even go to extents of interpreting what they mean like priests do to a bible when they say well Fresco said this or Peter said this is why I hope it fails. If I am wrong which I hope I'm not then I'll figure it out then in a organic and natural way what I will be doing.

@TeeZedem I did enjoy reading your response. Anyways when you say...

"TeeZwdem says: Certainly an RBE will have its flaws, but the strength of any system is demonstrated not by how well it operates under optimal conditions but by how it deals with adversity. Take for example, pure capitalism, in a society motivated solely by profit, problems are only fixed if profit can be made from fixing them. The rest of the time is spent externalizing costs onto the environment until the environment cannot absorb anymore. Not a very expedient way to live is it. Now of course we don't have pure capitalism, but the tendency is there."

I don't want to get into hypothetical that's another Zeitgeister tactics I've observed on the forums where it's like well I can do this and that in RBE oohh yeah well i can jerk off into a soup can and give it to a friend in RBE and not feel bad about it... RBE isn't really their isn't any academic research but I will however point out some things for instance...

" Certainly there could be hoarding, but for what purpose? Where are you going to store it when private property doesn't really exist anymore. "

Easy so all of that particular resource is accessible to the few. Private property doesn't exist and this is suppose to be better? In a democracy we have private property in a RBE we don't? How is RBE any better than Democracy again?

"You can't sell it there is no market for it. You could try to barter your ill gotten resources."

Of course you can't sell things for money in the sense of money in a TZM/TVP RBE but you can barter, you can create black markets (hidden market designed to function without oppression) , you can create unique items (ex: diamond rings, rubies), you can create a need for it(EX: sex, tv, cars, computers), etc...

"You can be certain your neighbours are going to be pissed at you, and who is going to protect you from them? So yes the propensity to be greedy can and will still exist, but as an individual you can't do that much harm before you are put in check by others in your community."

Why would they get pissed at me? See in RBE if everybody gets what they want then they should have what they need. So their isn't a need for them to get pissed amrite? If it so happens a person wants to hoard things privately and use his/her special item or commodities that is a limited to get special perks I'd think others would be jealous of him? Of course in RBE their is no crime but you would be suggesting that force would be taken on such a individual within this RBE society who has done nothing to anybody; at that the violent aggressor being the person that attacks the person hoarding may steal his/her commodities for self benefit and may start hoarding as well seeing the benefits. Since RBE does not addresses hoarding as a problem but rather money as a problem I just look at RBE as the same crap different bag. How is this better than what we have now? I just see issues coming from this all the time, you even admit people will be forced to stop I imagine possibly through acts of violence if necessary, don't we already do that now?

"The RBE is already starting, look at Open Source Ecology for example. They are building technology. This idea is not limited to TZM or TVP, this is springing up all over."

I don't think OSE is about RBE i'll have to ask someone in RBOSE whose affiliated with OSe about this or a friend in it. OSE is about open sourceless technology, which they have started with a tractor. I remember Peter Joseph Merola saying he doesn't think open source has any relevance to what he is doing but I find that funny since open source software is something functional, it works and it's free for everyone to download at least most of them.

Another project I suggest you come in and take a look at RBOSE which stands for Resource Based Open Source Environment. We have been working on a few things from open farming, open reprap, to software development.

www.rbose.org

"I take it you don't like Peter of Jacque very much. You are entitled to your opinion I am certainly not going to hold it against you. Peter has backed off from the 9/11 stuff, which I take as a good sign. You can read it here."

I saw this I made a whole topic about it :D check it out. Not only is Dr. Peter Joseph Merola for conspiracy theories he thinks the economy spawned 9/11 it's so laughable it's sad...

http://conspiracyscience.com/forums/topic/dr-peter-merola-says-911-spawned-from-the-economic-system#post-18388

@TeeZedem I did enjoy reading your response. Anyways when you say...
I don't want to get into hypothetical that's another Zeitgeister tactics I've observed on the forums where it's like well I can do this and that in RBE oohh yeah well i can jerk off into a soup can and give it to a friend in RBE and not feel bad about it... RBE isn't really their isn't any academic research but I will however point out some things for instance...

Well you got me there, no academic research because an RBE has never existed. Although if I am allowed to make a comparison, I am sure this conversation never came up when people started switching from barter to money. People just did it and it caught on and eventually money out competed barter. Because it was a good idea at the time. I think an RBE is a good idea and I think that a similar transition will take place. Of course if RBE is a bad idea like some think on this forum, then it will go nowhere. No skin off of anyone’s back.

Easy so all of that particular resource is accessible to the few. Private property doesn't exist and this is suppose to be better? In a democracy we have private property in a RBE we don't? How is RBE any better than Democracy again?

Well ask yourself Bill, why do we have private property today? Why is private property so important to us? Where did the idea of private property rights originate?

Of course you can't sell things for money in the sense of money in a TZM/TVP RBE but you can barter, you can create black markets (hidden market designed to function without oppression) , you can create unique items (ex: diamond rings, rubies), you can create a need for it(EX: sex, tv, cars, computers), etc...

Interesting how you mention the phrase “create a need for it.” Which pretty much sums up our entire consumerist culture. American society wasn’t always like this. Have you watched The Century of Self? Americans were conditioned to consume. The logic follows if you can condition them to consume you should be able to deprogram that conditioning.

Why would they get pissed at me? See in RBE if everybody gets what they want then they should have what they need. So their isn't a need for them to get pissed amrite? If it so happens a person wants to hoard things privately and use his/her special item or commodities that is a limited to get special perks I'd think others would be jealous of him? Of course in RBE their is no crime but you would be suggesting that force would be taken on such a individual within this RBE society who has done nothing to anybody; at that the violent aggressor being the person that attacks the person hoarding may steal his/her commodities for self benefit and may start hoarding as well seeing the benefits. Since RBE does not addresses hoarding as a problem but rather money as a problem I just look at RBE as the same crap different bag. How is this better than what we have now? I just see issues coming from this all the time, you even admit people will be forced to stop I imagine possibly through acts of violence if necessary, don't we already do that now?

I guess I should have got on you about that earlier using wants and needs interchangeably. Lazy of me, my bad. Yes there is a difference between wants and needs. An RBE is focus on providing needs, not wants. So you want to have a gold covered castle, which is not going to happen. I suggest that the community will probably use something similar to common law, either you repay or repair the damage you have done or you will be outlawed as in “outside of the law”. So the protection afforded to you by civilization will be stripped away and no one needs deal with you. So you have a choice, to be frank, you can behave like a jackass and either fall into line with acceptable behaviour (i.e. not hoarding, no endangering the lives of those in the community), or you can continue your jackassery and be exiled. Considering the comfort and abundance you would be leaving, why would you risk that? The key distinction between our society now and an RBE would be that the government is force; an RBE would be an social contract at which you could exit whenever you chose not to live peaceably with your fellow man, with one caveat, once you leave there is no coming back. In the old days, mugshots of outlaws were pasted on walls, in a technological society it is even easier, automatic facial recognition software will deactivate any system you attempt to use in an RBE, you become a ghost in the city, person non-grata.

I don't think OSE is about RBE i'll have to ask someone in RBOSE whose affiliated with OSe about this or a friend in it. OSE is about open sourceless technology, which they have started with a tractor. I remember Peter Joseph Merola saying he doesn't think open source has any relevance to what he is doing but I find that funny since open source software is something functional, it works and it's free for everyone to download at least most of them.

Another project I suggest you come in and take a look at RBOSE which stands for Resource Based Open Source Environment. We have been working on a few things from open farming, open reprap, to software development.

http://www.rbose.org

I’ll definitely check that out. As for OSE, they mention that they are producing technology for a post-scarcity society. And that is the key isn’t it, concrete examples of technology.

I saw this I made a whole topic about it :D check it out. Not only is Dr. Peter Joseph Merola for conspiracy theories he thinks the economy spawned 9/11 it's so laughable it's sad...
http://conspiracyscience.com/forums/topic/dr-peter-merola-says-911-spawned-from-the-economic-system#post-18388

I read that and truthfully as long as Peter doesn’t railroad the movement by talking about 9/11 anymore then I am fine with it. If he thinks that the economic system caused 9/11 from the perspective of the inequalities it creates then I see nothing wrong with that. If 19 Saudi’s got on a few planes to teach the Americans a lesson because of the inequality they were experiencing at the hands of the US gov’t, it is not unreasonable to attribute that behaviour to the very system that drives the entire world, money. It is certainly a more acceptable position to take than to say that the government planned it all and demo’d the buildings. I think however this rivalry between CS and TZM has pretty much made Peter person non-grata here. Let me restate that more clearly, I don’t think Peter could say or do anything to redeem himself in your eyes collectively. But as an outsider here, (again I am grateful for the forum), I see a lot of Peter bashing. If you disagree with him, that is fine, but I would stick with the facts, rather than make it personal. Think about it from the perspective of someone who is on the fence about TZM, if they see a number of threads referring to Peter sarcastically as Dr.Peter Joseph Merola, I would think they’d have a negative reaction. You have problems with Peter’s credentials, then challenge his credentials. Arguing the facts is always best, is always strongest, and it is just more civilized.

The problem with the cybernetic process of a RBE is an extreme positive feedback* in scenarios of scarcity.

*(Positive Feedback means that if some process starts to get imbalanced, it gains momentum and gets more and more imbalanced. The opposite, negative feedback, brings the process back to normal - air conditioners and automatic driving systems for trucks work that way)

Let's say some important good gets scarce.

Ideal solution: Use gets limited per person to avoid situations of extreme lack, capitalism regulates this over the price mechanism, planned economies of the past per rations.

RBE: Unless there is some government force to restrict consumption, the computers will just say that the good is getting more and more scarce, people will increase their demand, just to go sure they're adequately supplied for the future, further increasing the scarcity of the good.

It's not about whether this scenario will happen, but that it can, and the ideal economic system has to cope with as many possible scenarios as possible.

I don't see a moneyless society w/o government be able to do that, at least not in the foreseeable future.

@CyborgJesus: That's a great point. Tragedy of the Commons. It tends not to happen in small communities, but in a larger society I think it could be very problematic since individuals are no longer affecting just their neighbors by their economic actions, but also people halfway across the globe that they've never met. How will an RBE handle these runaway consumption situations? How will an RBE distinguish between normal consumption and runaway consumption?

There are just too many holes in RBE theory that needs to be filled before anyone can or should take it seriously.

Muertos, I'm worried more about Mike Adams, Joe Mercola, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, and Ron Paul way more than I am of Merola. All he does is parrot debunked conspiracy theories in an effort to change the world into a "happy" place.

The above nutjobs instigate much more intra and interpersonal harm than some art school dropout. They spread fear, anger, and solutions to them (kill Obama, purchase untested products, avoid doctors, destroy liberals) on a daily basis.

The Ten Commandments are in the Old Testament.

@Sky
...but of course also in the new one. Those missionaries follow the new one.

@CyborgJesus
"It's not even a hypothesis, because nobody wants to do any research on it. "
Correction... There is no money from this kind of research. What did J. P. Morgan ask, when Nicola Tesla proposed using a completed Wardenclyffe Tower to transmit electrical power all around the world for anyone to take: ~"How can we make money off of this?". He couldn't, since that power would be distributed to the world and individuals couldn't be cut off, even if it would have been tested and worked.

And governments worry about the stability of the current economic model. Even though European Union is heavily financing research on nanotechnology, it is not for the creation of an RBE.

"What did J. P. Morgan ask, when Nicola Tesla proposed using a completed Wardenclyffe Tower to transmit electrical power all around the world for anyone to take: ~"How can we make money off of this?". He couldn't, since that power would be distributed to the world and individuals couldn't be cut off, even if it would have been tested and worked."

If you can really do that then go invent it, investors will be climbing down your throat for that technology. You'll be super rich.

Zeitgeist pretends that abundant, efficient technology isn't what capitalism wants, on the contrary, thats exactly what capitalists want.