Skeptic Project

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=263&id=315260

Thought i'd get your attention. They didn't say that but often your Zeitgeister will make claims that it as a hundred billion people in it's movement and that they need critical mass of 500 trillion before they can do anything.

Now they all praise Egypt and ask for support of the Egypt chapter but someone pointed out to me in IRC that TZM doesn't have a Egypt chapter. And when I see such comments as this

>>Aldersai: You can point egyptians toward resource based economy or you can let them build same monetary system again.

Its your choice what about you educate people. Now is good chance to educate them about resource based economy. If you will skip over this chance, there will be no other chance. Right now they seeking new system when they destroying old, but if they don't know about resource based economy, they use again monetary system. New hierarchial system will be created and old story start again. So, now is chance to get at least middle countries working toward resource based economy.

So egyptians, educate people about resource based economy and turn those countries toward resource based economy.

Jacque quote: This shit has to go!<<

>>surbitonpete: I am thinking a country could perhaps become almost an RBE by 'only' using money for trading with other countries and working towards a moneyless self supporting system within. They need to start working on supplying human needs for free first, food, water and energy.<<

It simply emphasizes the delusions of communism these people are advocating.

I predicted three days ago that the Zeitards would claim that the Egypt thing is their idea, and that the Egyptian people want an RBE.

The scary thing is, I bet that right now a substantial number of Zeitards really believe this.

Delusion knows no bounds.

But you CAN riot your way to a resource based economy! Isn't it the cure for all that ails the world, TeeZedem?

On a economic standpoint I think RBE is weak as hell. A monetary system can't really be toppled easily at all and it's by far very very very versatile and the proof is that we have been using it for thousands of years. Governments/countries collapsed and restarted and it's still kicking.

A RBE does not have a sound structure. Think about outside sources that would take advantages of the system aka what you TeeZedumb would define as trolls...

I for one would not go along with that system ever and would fight against your system. engineering experience, as well as computer skills would be the experience needed to wreck your RBE. The thing is I don't need a reason why TeeZeedumb, because I'm simply a monkey animal! ALEX JONES RAWR!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhqUk28OwHs

@Billl

and I will SSJ3 on you Kaaa mmeee, hhaaaa mmeeee HAAAAAA!!!!

@TeeZedumb your forgetting before that if you happen to believe in evolution we were a bunch of monkies , and before that we were dividing cells, and before that just a bunch of amino acids. In all of that it is a natural process that occurred that made us who we are today. It was the progression of evolution that helped us and then technology to aid us.

I don’t need to believe in evolution, the evidence speaks volumes in support of it. But interesting you should use the evolution analogy, do you perhaps believe that monetary based capitalism is the apex of economic evolution? This far and no farther?

In all it was simply a natural progression of society as a whole. What TZM advocates is not natural and seemed to be forced. When I see such words as "you will be in the minority", is that suppose to be some type of intimidation tactic (as well as another TZM delusion)? This thought process is exactly why TZM/TVP will not happen, because in fact it is communism and the people in TZM are being lied to. The person that is lying to them is Peter Joseph Merola and he should hold his head in shame for such a thing.

I agree with you, monetary based economics was a necessary and natural progression from tribal based living, and then on to bartering. Without the invention of money we could not have the specialization we have today. But every system has their time in the sun and then it becomes necessary to move on. My use of the phrase “you will be in the minority” is not meant to be an intimidation of any sort. I would see it more akin to people who like to run uphill with 100lbs strapped to their back, most people choose the path of least resistance, you are choosing a harder path. I will put to rest this idea of TVP/TZM is communism by making a concession, so we don’t need to endlessly discuss this issue over and over again. TVP/TZM has many aspects in common with stateless communism that was advocated by Marx, but never has Marx’s idea been put into practice. There is a debate raging on the TZM forums right now between those that support communist/socialist ideas and are a bit peeved that PJ has slagged them in the new documentary. It comes down to the connotation of the word “communism”, in the US there is a knee jerk reaction to such a word, evoking visions of Mao and Stalin, not nice people with not nice governments, but their version of communism was corrupt, much like capitalism has been corrupted by corporatism, the only difference being is we all live in the capitalist/corporatist society, not a communist one. Imagine how our argument would be framed if we were having this conversation behind the firewalls in China or over dial-up in Cuba (I partly jest). You would be still be calling out the RBE and your basic defense would be that the current system works, although poorly.

See TeeZeDumb you are being hooked line and sinker into this BS. You buy all his DVD's and promote all his BS to make Peter famous. You are in fact what I would call a salesman or a a person marketing a "idea". You are in fact nothing more than a spam bot. I'm not just saying it's just you but you but others are cult drone communist spam bot for the TZM/TVP movement.

You make the assumption that I fall in the demographic that you envision most Zeitgeisters fall into: young, high school/college student, unemployed. The fact is I have earned my degree in science and currently work as a designated professional in finance. Peter’s fame is irrelevant to me and the ends I want to see. It is the ideas that matter. And calling me a spam bot is hardly accurate. It’s not like I post on here “Zeitgeist for the win!” That would be annoying. I do advocate ideas, the question is what ideas do you advocate?

If your going to talk about free speech I don't know much about the 1st amendment but I will say when a group of people are about a particular thing and someone comes in and introduces something else and at that keeps doing it over and over again repeatably and what it's spamming is in fact known for doing this over the internet that such terms as "Zeittard" are developed you my friend have no more rights than a spam bot... In that I have always advocated and give a thumbs up in banning spam bots. I don't even think religious organizations are this bad (could be wrong).

Well Billl that could characterize your behaviour as well. You repeat many of the same arguments that we have already hashed over. Indeed, you seem to spend about as much time fighting us as we spend promoting the idea. Perhaps the most effective way you could do this is by illustrating for me how sustainability and capitalism could be arrived at, or any other system currently in practice for that matter. Actually I think the moniker Zeitard was developed to make your ability to dismiss ideas…easier and more efficient. Labeling suits that purpose nicely. Rather than engage what I have to say, you throw the label and then you don’t have to listen. But I repeat, as I always have, you can boot me from these forums at any time if that is your prerogative.

TeeZedumb I think your making TZM into a bit of a violent group and at a hypocrite as well. I laughed when you said "roll up on our hood" and hood in contexts means the projects, and projects are in fact where poor people live. LOL yeah sure I'll roll up on your hood to pity you moneyless fools. Well I got to give you props at least your in reality when it comes to where TZM/TVP members will be, which is as you say is the "hood".

So you see no consequence to your actions of stating that as a military super genius you could wreck your local community with impunity and endanger whomever you like. You need to understand that your actions would be hurting your neighbours, people with whom you associate with and collaborate with on a daily basis. If you lack that empathy how would you expect anyone to co-operate with you? It would be naïve in the extreme to think that any community would let one person endanger the lives of many. And not so interesting you should find hilarity in what I said about our “hood” (hilarity was intentional), but more interesting in what context you found the hilarity, how many billions live today as moneyless fools? The difference being that today’s moneyless fool has nothing and is worried about where their next meal is coming from and tends to riot when they don’t get it. Even the most selfish of us must realize either by accident or subconsciously that by elevating everyone’s standard of living by providing them the access to necessities without thought of profit makes them less likely to resort to violence to get what they need.

I feel a fairly strong need to get involved at this point because there are some fairly flimsy theoretical arguments being made that need to be addressed. This argument is that we can somehow trace the monetary system from a point of pre-currency economies through the capitalist-financial system as if there are these clear breaks in the continuum where we can somehow identify where the system suddenly became a system of injustice. Essentially, there is a powerful myth that societies moved from pre-currency to currency economies. This myth, I argue, is remarkably devoid of deeper understanding of anthropological evidence.
The idea that there was, at some point, a pure barter society that used no means of currency or monetary practice is, essentially, false. In his book “The Gift” Marcel Mauss describes how pacific islanders engaged in Gift Economies which did not operate along the lines of a barter system. Instead, the exchange of goods extended power structures when an obligation to reciprocate did not exist. In other words this represents a kind of debt. Yes, debt existed before a monetary system existed and in many ways it was far more powerful than the kind of debt we now live under. Mauss work showed that all objects in these societies, though they did not have currency through which they mediated exchange, did carry extensive values that went beyond the object itself. If someone is gifted a necklace, they are not expected to reciprocate with another gift in kind, but they are then held under the original gifter’s power unless they overcome the value of the gift they were given. In this way, items of value constantly circulate through the society. I suggest that anyone interested in the anthropology of political-economy read Mauss’ work in order to understand the fiction behind “pure-barter economies.” Indeed, to say that there was a time when only barter existed is to say one has the archeological and historical data necessary to suggest such exchanges were really that simple. Again, many anthropologists show that pre-currency societies did not simply “give this for that” but that all exchange is socially mediated through symbolic gestures and objects. And not all societies followed the same trajectory towards the creation of currency. Currency, as a means of exchange, was invented countless times and all across the globe with radically different cultural implications. To say that we followed a set path from "tribal living" to barter on to currency and we now await a new phases is evolutionary reductionism. If you examine even the existance of currency you see that it has evolved countless times itself. What evidence is there to suggest that the current economic-currency systems wont simply evolve within a much more gradient like curve rather than some sudden break? Again, one would require archeaological evidence to show that we just "suddenly" introduce new symbology like that. Even the history of currency itself is remarkably difficult to track with the introduction of metallurgic currency emerging in the Near East. The truth is, such a sudden emergence is hard to prove and henceforth makes it difficult to argue that currency will simply just vanish or that we will move to a post-currency society. Not only does that beg questions of continued socially-mediated exchange, it presumes a material reality that does not exist.
Furthermore, claiming that the current system is in some way disjointed from a history of economic development overlooks the inherent symbolic continuities that exist. There appears to be this idea that our money is somehow more of a fiction than other currencies and economic systems. After all, the whole push behind the “gold standard” movement is that our money is just fiat nonsense with no basis in reality. But the picture is inherently more complicated since, when you look back on monetary societies, it becomes clear that currency has always been a fiction- even gold. For more on this I recommend the excellent episode of “This American Life” entitled “Inventing Money” which can be found here (http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/423/the-invention-of-money). Even gold, when you really think about it, is simply a symbol. Symbols are those things upon which members of a community agree upon. Language is a symbol as is the Cross or a gold coin or a $5 bill. Indeed, it is impossible to find human societies and communities did not mediate meaning through symbology, and thus suggesting that money can simply be done away with betrays a fundamental aspect of all human activity. Again, even in bartering, the exchange of goods also carried symbolic meanings and often wasn’t really true bartering at all. It is imperative that those people suggesting otherwise stop resorting to tautological arguments to support their claims, but instead find the evidence necessary to substantiate their claims.
The RBE model necessitates a total inundation of society will all goods it needs without threat of running out, and that goods can simply be given to those who need or want them. But such a system ignores the symbolic and cultural implications of any system, not to mention the question of what happens when things like tungsten run out or a disaster disrupts production of any sector of goods. You see, the idea that we can live in a system of unmediated exchange goes not only against the real aspects of human history (where I didn’t really want your goat, but I exchanged with you because I had a strong kinship tie with you, or because I wanted to actually place you into debt so I could get labor out of you in exchange) but it also presumes that we as people are capable of living in such a world. All action has symbolic importance when it is communal, and all exchange is much more complicated than a simple movement of goods between people. No exchange is really only between two people in a society, and these examples of “barter” systems rely only on theoretical models without a substantial basis in history.

@TeeZedumb I'll hit this shortly because I know your upset with the massive amount of text I skimmed briefly. When I speak of evolution I make sure you recognize that their are in fact other things besides barter before we traded "stuff" that you fail to recognize and you in fact cherry pick "ideas" to sell your group. If you recognize that amino acids, monkeys and dividing cells helped us be what we are at which came about in a very natural progression your argument about barter and things of that scale would become moot because we just didn't "always barter". We were something else before that but we "naturally progressed" out of it into something else.

Good meme’s out compete bad meme’s so they are as subject to evolutionary processes as biological systems. My mentioning of barter wasn’t meant to be an exhaustive list. But I will be more careful about qualifying that in the future.

Teezedumb you basically admit that TZM/TVP is communism and you basically say although indirectly that Peter Joseph Merola is a liar. You should be agreeing with me that Peter Joseph Merola should hang his head low for now saying what TZM/TVP which is in fact communism with robots/technocracy.

You’re attributing words to my actions that I have not expressed. I have not implied PJ is a liar. I simply agree more with the communist/socialists that there are some strong similarities between the RBE concept and what Marx proposed. And rather than argue over labels, we should put it aside and begin to co-operate.

You are a spam bot when I see your name being a advertisement as "TeezeDumb" you are in fact a spam bot. When a thread that may pop eyeballs on CS comes out about TZM/TVP you come and spam it up as to put promotions in it, or cool it down on CS and make it not as big of deal for TZM prying eyes that may come upon the site. yeah, you're a spambot... I'll put it this way if a guy on TZM forum called himself consrpiacysciencedotcom they wouldn't last to long and in most (all) cases admin/mods/members on TZm forums would assume this individual had a particular agenda...

I asked to be registered here with the upfront expressed idea of what I would be doing and who I would represent. You imply that what I am doing is sneaky and underhanded, but in fact I have been transparent about the entire process. If my name offends you so much I could ask to have it changed, but that would not change what I stand for. If you’d rather have a site where everyone shares your opinion then by all means campaign to have me banned. So of course I have an agenda, but I have never hidden it.

Teezedumb I have never fought anything? Please point out where I have? If your talking about stating my opinion yes I have like everybody else on CS. If you defining stating ones opinion as fighting TZM/TVP then you seriously need a reality check. I happen to not just talk about TZM, I talk about Alex Jones, Hamburger, william Cooper and other things yet interestingly enough you only point out TZM. Of course you would just say TZM because your obviously not bias... Zeitard is not being dismissive it's defining you people in a way as zombies, as drones, as cult members, as communists but in retrospect to keep up with the time I'll call you guys spam bots promoting communism.

Oh really?

I for one would not go along with that system ever and would fight against your system.

Your words. I have no problem with your opinion, I would appreciate more facts. Posting up pictures of VTV’s personal life hardly qualifies as good debate and really just makes you look like an ass. You’ve got legitimate concerns I’d like to hear them, but what I hear most of the time is that you don’t like PJ, you think he is a conspiracy theorist and you think VTV is fat. I’m not saying you guys have no grounds for concern; I just need to gauge how far we have to go as a movement to address those concerns. Of course if the answer is “nothing, never, no way, no how” will ever change your perception this exercise is moot. What you all need to understand is you actually have a real impact regardless of what others may say. This is not to stroke your ego, but this site is the canary in the coalmine. Your objections are usually first on the scene and it gives us time to respond to them or at least express a concern about them.

And as for your focus not being primarily on TZM, I’ll concede that because no doubt I suffer from some confirmation bias as we only collide on anti-TZM posts. Although I recall you getting all over my case when I had posted an anti-911 Truth thread accusing me of peddling my wares, when in fact all I was doing was relating my debate against a truther. So the bias exists for both of us. As for me being dismissive, obviously the fact that I have hung on here as long as I have, proves that I am not dismissive. I could leave at any time, it would be easier for me to do so, but someone needs to hear the harsh criticisms.

I'm not sure why you decide to put words in my mouth saying such things as "So you see no consequence to your actions of stating that as a military super genius" or " you could wreck your local community with impunity and endanger whomever you like". I will not dignify such a statement with a statement besides this statement XD.

I am positive I read that you had military, engineering and computer programming experience. Never mind, I apologize for attributing that to you. When I am wrong I say I am wrong.

When you say "how many billions live today as moneyless fools?", I find that this is a typical statement a TZmer states yet TZM/TVP excuse me Peter Joseph Merola states giving poor food, clothes, shelter, a job is waisting your time the only thing that is truly viable is TZM/TVP. Peter's statement is not rational. If your using such a statement as a plug for TZM/TVP yet you are not actually preventing or attempting to prevent such things you shouldn't be using the statement as you automatically become a liar. So in short you are a liar because TZm/TVP does nothing nor supports doing anything to help the poor with viable solution. Teezedumb I want this out their that you are in fact a liar that is promoting communism. I don't think you know any better but your a snake oils salesman and like any salesman they believe in their "cause" of selling a vacuum cleaner. Although most salesman can back up what they say you cannot. Also note not all salesman are bad salesman or dishonest; dishonesty as a salesman doesn't get you far.

This is the recurring argument that I am talking about, rehashing the same things over and over again and attributing attitudes that obviously don’t exist. PJ thinks charity is a band aid solution, that it will not fix anything long term, but has he ever explicitly said that people should forgo being charitable? If so I would really like to hear that. This is common misinformation, that is being willful ignorant, or willfully misconstruing what PJ said. I can’t speak for all members, but I support various charities. This is not a violation of anything PJ has said, indeed, because no such directive exists. Everyone who is part of the movement wants a change that benefits everyone. So who is in fact lying? This argument of yours is weak. I am promoting an RBE just so we are clear. You can label me communist all you like but that doesn’t make it so.

I see it is also conveniently ignored everything I have said previously and construed that as “not backing up what I said.” What purpose do I have to lie? I’m actually quite comfortable financially in this system, have a wife, two kids, a car that is paid for, a house that I don’t owe a heck of a lot on and a job that virtually guarantees that I will be employed for the rest of my life. By your estimation there is no reason for me to support an RBE and every reason not to. Yet I do. Does that make me a liar? Crazy? Or do I see the hurdles my children have to clear to get as far as I have and does that keep me up at night?

I am beginning to think that Muertos, you and a few others accuse us of saying the same things over and over again; it is because you keep asking the same questions over and over again and you do not like the answers you are getting.

Your almost like a missionary promoting things that can't be proven, wait you are a missionary.

Ascribing religious characteristics now? When are you going to get to the meat of the issue? Where is your grand argument? I don’t think you added one thing that Muertos hasn’t already said, and already said better.

At that i'll leave people with a picture of what a RBE will look like as Teezedumb says "in the hood".

Strong finish, I’ll give you points for that.

@Kaiser

That was impressive. Good stuff. I will take your book suggestions and read them over.

@teezedumb I'll hit upon a few things and leave other things alone.

Peter is a liar and you are a liar. The difference is you don't know your a liar but your a liar by believing a liar in the first place which is Peter Merola. The fact that you do not realizes this emphasizes the need for major educational reform at least in america. You admit TVP RBE is communism well get your leader Peter Merola to say it as well. It's communism with robots.

teezedumb you neglect to mention what pictures I posted up about VTV to make it seem like I posted up some horribly awful pictures. I simply don't do that and won't do that. What I posted up is some hilarious larping pictures. I thought the pictures were funny because of course it's larping and role playing and it reminds me of furries for some reason. You also neglect the fact that VTV has posted up personal information about myself as well as others going to the extent of making a blog about me and others. My thinking was well this isn't to bad and larping is pretty funny looking so why not poke fun.

Obviously VTV had a problem with it and he should of e-mailed me personally and told me and I would of gladly of told someone to take that stuff off. One will find I'm actually a very reasonable individual. Keep in mind VTV has a blacklist section of his "enemies" on the TZM joomla forum and you neglect to mention that as well teezedumb. VTV somehow thinks, this is the "best form" of action in blacklisting people. Ultimately though, VTV never contacted me or anybody on CS concerning such problems on. Any reasonable rational person would at least contact individuals with such problems he did not.

teezedumb your name is such to promote that's why of course you are here. In that you are a spam bot.

As far as "getting to the meat of the issue" that is in fact what your lacking. RBE is fake fiction communism your trying to push off as fact. I can only go to your so called "meat of the issue" on if a RBE works as much as me trying to get to "the meat of the issue" on if reptilians really exist; both at which have been unproven in their own absurdities.

yup trot along cock breath

@ TeeZeedem, Also try to pick up "The Great Transformation" by Karly Polanyi. Very easy and informative read.

buh bye now