Skeptic Project

I spent some time making this and for some reason my phone want post on the site so I'll leave the post on SP and link it. This is more of a clarification thread towards VTV's comments.


http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,97823,page=19


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I will try not to respond in lengthy paragraphs like this in the future.


@VTV

Hi VTV, I do admit what I have said may upset people but I do believe to the best of my knowledge that the information is accurate. I will not provide more evidence because simply the evidence I care to provide is referenced below. Although in some circumstances I will provide more links in cases I feel need it.

I'm not going to debate VTV or argue with VTV as that is not my intent here and that would honestly lead nowhere. However I may go through some things for clarification as I feel necessary to do so. I didn't come onto this site to smear TZM however corboy wanted to know some information and I merely presented him with some. My intent was to put down the information I had at hand.


I'd like to say VTV is what I would define as a aggressive manipulator. By the tone of VTV's response he's very aggressive and it's obvious he's attempting to twist things around.

VTV intent would be defined as doing acts of Covert-Aggression. As I would say VTV is narcissistic type of personality he is often positioning himself for of course the betterment of himself. VTV will often use deceit and twisted logic until he gets what he wants or to other extents verbally beat people into submission as shown by his statements or silence them.

I will show a archived TZM official site emphasizing (down below) VTV's lack of skills when it comes to honest discussion. I saved a discussion between VTV and a economist at which VTV defines it as a debate (I do not). Although the economist provides evidence VTV provides little more than empty notions. I do find the debate humorous though as VTV actually thinks he made some points... He actually thinks he made valid points within the thread, it's just mind blowing. At no point between the discussion with the economist and VTV, did VTV make a single relevant point.

After reading everything in the Trumpet Call of God thread I have to admit TZM has similarities to that group, although I would not define these groups as internet cults do to the lack of academic evidence justifying such a term.

As far as RBOSE goes and how open source groups operate I would say RBOSE onto itself is a project. Although I am not directly affiliated with RBOSE anymore I do work indirectly with individuals/projects with RBOSE and from what I see RBOSE is kind of like freenod except projects are more physical base than software base. RBOSE concept is to allow open source projects to be on it's communication medium as long as they follow the guidelines (mainly being open source). No one can really be banished from RBOSE however projects within RBOSE have structures and these projects may have rules at which it's entirely possible that a person could be banned from a particular project but be able to stay on RBOSE mediums. Therefore that's almost the same way Freenod irc service works in concept basically.

I agree and support banning is done throughout other open source project community. So people can get banned from projects within RBOSE however no one (exceptions being spam) can be banned off RBOSE medium as well as no one can bar someone off from working on a open source projects even if they were banned from the project itself that they want to continue to work on.

RBOSE itself left TZM because many people within RBOSE believe the open source ideology was more tangible than the TZM utopian ideology. RBOSE split from TZM and TZM acted like a jealous girlfriend and started doing attacks.

I will post a letter in .pdf below showing a RBOSE letter to Peter Joseph. The letter contains problems RBOSE members saw within TZM during around 2009 the letter was written. As well as I will post the response Peter Joseph made to the letter RBOSE made.

Going to respond to Dark Dancers statement that VTV posted up


" Gilbert
As unfortunate as it is, this seems the route to go. There are good people within the RBOSE group and i wont be the last to acknowledge that.
Having said that amongst other moderators i have been allmost a daily returning subject in the RBOSE irc, more often than not in a very negative light being slandered with homophobic comments ( being a heterosexual person this doesn't hurt as much) but its still homophobic and sickens me, having lies spread about me, calling me unnecesarry for the movement.

I do not need acknowledgement of any kind, but it is kind of hurtful spending an average of 8 hours on the movement per day ( if not more sometimes) trying very hard to get our movement to progress, aiding chapters, setting up chapters and then to be notified that some jerk off that feels bitter that the movement didnt go his way call me useless. At that point it gets annoying.

Then the wors part, infiltration in chapters. I was prepared to leave the RBOSE issue alone and forget about it, until individuals in the RBOSE group started to mess with the chapters. At first it was changing links in some chapter sites to link the IRC to the RBOSE instead of TZM server( this was a chapter site based on a wiki so anyone could edit it). Then it became worse, emailing chapters to get them to collaborate with RBOSE, infiltrating Zdays with RBOSE propaganda and then showing up to face to face meetings to cause problems and promote RBOSE.

This is not even everything that went down, but enough to say it has to stop in one way or another,

Either the RBOSE platform gets rid of the people who are sick and cannot be helped from behind a computer, or anyone in the chapters area who refuses to stop cooperation with this perverse group will be removed from any official or coordinating position, and if they are selfish enough to drag their whole chapter in, they will be reverted to non official. This policy was approved by the chapters at an international meeting, and is therefore made by our community.

If you don't decide to wake up to the ramifications of your actions, thats a pity.

Have a nice life nonetheless.

Gilbert"

Gilbert as well as VTV as well as Tanktop were reading the RBOSE IRC logs. They are basically archived logs within a few IRC channels that are publically put up on a website for mostly RBOSE members to use and reference. As most RBOSE memebrs have jobs or were not in IRC all the time there needed to be a way for people to catch up on what's happening and therefore we tested archiving IRC logs thinking it be the best bet for a person to catch up on information.

The problem or backfiring of this idea is that people would post things in a IRC chat server that was not particularly good things. As RBOSE concept is that they do not banish people off main RBOSE channels. The problem with this is the material archived would often be looked at by TZMers who would consistently refer to these archived logs. They would often show and use these logs against RBOSE. It got to the extent that RBOSE members knew TZMers were reading the logs and at which RBOSE members would say things to antagonize TZMers who read the logs within the main IRC channels. I have to admit it I joined in on it as it was so odd as to why TZM would pay attention to our IRC logs so much (have better things to do?) and funny they would twist that as some type of evidence against RBOSE. However logic would say why even do this if RBOSE is it's own thing? RBOSE obviously doesn't want to go back to TZM so why do it?

Again I relate it to breaking up with a girl, TZM was very spiteful girl, it lost a lot of good developers. TZM was desperately trying to get the dev team back together but once that was not a possibility they began to do such petty things as this.

As far as the rest of this stuff Gilbert said (Gilbert is the second man on the totem pole within TZM). I have to say he's basing it off the archive IRC logs at which I wouldn't say those logs are legit. I mean if someone really wanted to why stop at RBOSE IRC logs why not base fact on other IRC servers channels and what people say in them as well?

I do not think DarkDancer or for that matter Peter Joseph are in a position to label someone as sick. I think it's so odd someone would label such people as I'm assuming when they mean sick they are meaning mentally sick. It's just odd, doesn't sound right. Who made DarkDancer or Peter Joseph to define whose mentally sick. I'm also troubled by Dark dancer (as well as Peter Joseph) attempting to control TZM members to stay away from RBOSE. It's so futile, RBOSE memebrs left because of this sort of thing, why would RBOSE want more of this???

" At first it was changing links in some chapter sites to link the IRC to the RBOSE instead of TZM server"

What happened is a RBOSE member owned the domain www.tk-TZM.com (not sure if that's the correct domain). However that domain would link to the TZM irc server. Then what happened is this person decided they would change the link to redirect back to RBOSE IRC link. Basically when someone puts down connection info for IRC server for www.tk-tzm.com it redirects to RBOSE IRC not TZM IRC. No one changed anything on the website it was the domain itself changed by the owner to redirect to RBOSE IRC server. It's within that person right to do so and it certainly was not the only domain that went onto the TZM IRC server (anybody can redirect a domain to go to a website, a irc server etc...). However Darkdancer found out someone did this because he read the RBOSE archive logs, if we never had those logs he would of never of known or cared... As far as the person redirecting the domain sure it may have been a problematic action, but it was not a hacking job as Darkdancer or VTV suggest. I believe they changed the domain to not be spiteful but more so to test some bouncers they had on another server. They needed a easy to remember domain instead of pulling up the ever changing IP. As well as they changed it as they no longer supported TZM. Not a hacking job just a domain redirect, that people who don't know any better or want to twist into there thinking call it a hacking job for what I assume is more convincing dramatic effect.

As far as RBOSE e-mail spam, RBOSE material spam at Zday or whatever I have not heard about the e-mail spam within RBSOE although I know there are allegations of it based on RBOSE IRC logs. As far as the RBOSE material spam it was not at a ZDay event and it was done by one individual. The individual was not Grits and I thought he was a pretty ok person as well. However this individual made his own papers for people to join RBOSE at which as a individual he's free to do so and I don't have a problem in him doing so if he's allowed to do so. However that issue would need to be taken up with him as I certainly would not do that nor would I support people doing it unless it was ok to do.

No one cared to infiltrate Zday and spread RBOSE material inside of it. Although I have heard talks about it, but people talk about a lot of things.

I will agree it is none of my business what you do in your personal life and I have no clue what you do on a day to day bases. However when lets say a person makes a blog suggesting they need money or they will be out on the streets/lose there kids, and they share that information with others. This individual is inviting a audience into there personal life. Although I will not fault a individual wanting money, as money helps pay the bills. I would suggest to this person to find a more sustainable position of income, and that this begging may not be a realistic future.

The TZM IRC server was shut down because some developer called Anarchist had a problem with the TZM IRC being to restrictive. Anarchist basically deleted the files backend of the IRC server. And that was that. tanktop (paid web dev for TZM) decided it was to much trouble to have IRC server as well as he didn't know much about IRC protocols backend wise. So even if Tanktop got the IRC server up without Anarchist, the problem would be that he doesn't know enough about IRC to do things properly incase a problem should come up. Grits as far as my knowledge was not the sole reason why the IRC server came down.

I am actually doing a extensive RBE criteria list (still in the works). Information about my criteria list will be below, however I will say there is not one shred of evidence that a RBE is based on science. I'm not asking a person to give examples of other examples I'm asking a person to show me models of a RBE, to build this RBE utopian based society, make a paper and get it published academically. Simply referring to things that are "RBE like" and saying that's a RBE and therefore most be based on science, is not science, is not proof, is not anything but wishful thinking. I'd say the believers of a RBE are basing it more on faith than on facts and that is what concerns me.

People are attracted to a RBE because it's without money. You don't have to work in a RBE. Computer do all the work . Resources are shared equally among the Earth. It's a obvious hook line a sinker for the jobless. Again, the main motivation for wanting an RBE or RBEM is not having to work. Its such a juvenile and incoherent ideology.

As internet cults go. I did not come onto Rick Ross to accuse any group of being a cult. I actually believe there needs to be more academic works published to back up such statements. However I will not fault anybody for making such claims.



References:

Dealing With Manipulative People
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing11.html


VTV's debate with a economist 1-9
http://st0rage.org/~graalreborn11/pet/VTV%20debate%20economist/index1.php
http://st0rage.org/~graalreborn11/pet/VTV%20debate%20economist/index2.php
http://st0rage.org/~graalreborn11/pet/VTV%20debate%20economist/index3.php
http://st0rage.org/~graalreborn11/pet/VTV%20debate%20economist/index4.php
http://st0rage.org/~graalreborn11/pet/VTV%20debate%20economist/index5.php
http://st0rage.org/~graalreborn11/pet/VTV%20debate%20economist/index6.php
http://st0rage.org/~graalreborn11/pet/VTV%20debate%20economist/index7.php
http://st0rage.org/~graalreborn11/pet/VTV%20debate%20economist/index8.php
http://st0rage.org/~graalreborn11/pet/VTV%20debate%20economist/index9.php


Reference to VTV's debate with a economist on Skeptic Project website
http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/forum/1305/debate-tzm-against-economists/

.PDF of RBOSE letter to Peter
http://www.filedropper.com/lettertopeter

.PDF of Peter's response towards RBOSE
http://www.filedropper.com/petersreplytotheletter

Concept of my RBE criteria list
http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/forum/5262/tvp-faq-this-coming-sunday-3/#reply-9ffc178c
http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/forum/5262/tvp-faq-this-coming-sunday-3/#reply-3abad595
http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/forum/5262/tvp-faq-this-coming-sunday-3/#reply-117e8899


Grits acting civil towards Peter Joseph
http://st0rage.org/~graalreborn11/Grits%20harassed%20by%20Thunder%20and%20Peter/Gmail%20-%20threats%20made%20via%20voice%20mail%20by%20%27Thunder%27%20-%20plautus@gmail.com.htm


Zeitology 101 (Peter Joseph Merola e-mail harassment to Plautus Satire) Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhuvoB1HfZg

Peter Joseph Merola threatens people with Restraining Orders (Mirrored)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VicytlMhTsM


Trumpets Call of God Rick Ross Site Topic
http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?6,62059,page=1