Skeptic Project

They still exist? Wow, I thought all of those morons simply bought Ipads and joined the Occupy Movement.

Quote from anticultist

Fresh batch of fucktards with a sprinkling of the old lot to act superior among them.

They still use that quiz before one can register?

I am an independent researcher with over thirty years experience, particularly with respect to current economic, social and political problems. My involvement in these subjects requires in itself a significant amount of detailed explanation, which I would be happy to go into at some other time.

There are however, issues which have recently arisen and need to be addressed immediately. The subject of The Zeitgeist Movement, The Venus Project and the concept of a Resource Based Economic Model in general have become a common talking points among many economists with the number set to grow.

I spent over five years as a member and activist of TZM, the last six months of which I decided to undertake a number of experimental exercises to determine the efficacy and viability of the movement as to whether or not it was capable of meeting its stated objectives as described in Zeitgeist Addendum and Zeitgeist Moving Forward.

As I stepped back and began to take a more analytical approach to understanding why the movement was making little progress in meeting its objectives, a decidedly different picture began to emerge.

My goal at this point was to help the movement become more effective in achieving its objectives and to develop ways to increase the sustainability of the product of those objectives. I identified two key obstacles which I offered as a critique and asked for feedback. Simple enough.

My first question was addressed to both members and non-members and was designed to determine what they saw as the greatest strengths and weaknesses of the Zeitgeist Movement UK. With specific reference to the weaknesses, I asked how these could be resolved. This met with little to no response. I interpreted this lack of response (naturally) as a form of apathy. So I inadvertently discovered a weakness.

I noticed on the TZM UK FaceBook page common phrases, quotes and patterns of behaviour which I recognised from personal examinations of zealous religious groups. I discussed this as a concern years before and suggested at the time that the movement seemed to have adopted some rather disturbing religious overtones. I then offered a perfectly valid criticism which was that the members of the movement had adopted all the features of a cult mindset, which lead me to asking the most significant question of all. This is what I offered first of all, purely as a concern:

In the interests of presenting a fair and balanced debate as to whether or not The Zeitgeist Movement is capable of delivering on its stated objectives in its current form, I have sought out this insightful short clip for some meaningful talking points. Individually and for your own interests it would serve you well to give it some consideration.


A short video presentation by: Dr. Robert, J Lifton on thought reform and The Zeitgeist Movement, from the point of view that it shares many of the same features of a cult. Again the results are as follows.

Please excuse the typo's.

The interesting point (and paradoxical if you will) is that, if this post is ignored it validates the point Dr Robert J Lifton is making here.

There is no question of the relevance of this item

It cannot be denied that there are (to say the least) some striking similarities between The Zeitgeist Movement and the dreaded C word. One could even call it self evident.

I have transcripts of what followed for further discussion. The conclusion is that The Zeitgeist Movement has become a self realizing cult and with hindsight, that outcome was inevitable.

My stance on internet cults as of now is there isn't enough academic work geared towards studying the possibility of cults being able to exists purely on the internet. Therefore for me it's hard to say Destinian, TZM or other internet based groups can be called a cult. However I do think TVP/TZM as more of a religion/faith-based group at which it's ideology is based around a RBE or RBEM.

I suppose in a way right now there are two religious denomination within a resource based economy belief system. One denomination affiliates itself with TVP and believes in a resource based economy, the other denomination is TZM and believes in a modified version of a TVP RBE called a Resource Based Economic Model.

My longer explanation can be located on a topic I made on SP.
http://other.skepticproject.com/forum/5360/learning-more-about-internet-based-cults/#0

A religious denomination is a subgroup within a religion that operates under a common name, tradition, and identity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_denomination

"RBE vs RBEM: Out of a general respect to TVP's work with what they consider to be the proprietary notion of a "Resource-Based Economy" [RBE] and its definition, some in The Movement prefer to adapt to the term "Resource-Based Economic Model" [RBEM] to separate from the Fresco-specific association/definition and allow for a more general flexible understanding of the Train of Thought."
http://chapters.thezeitgeistmovement.com/or/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=76&Itemid=89

(5) What are some of the central characteristics of the solution proposed (RBEM)?
http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/faq#faq5




I'd also throw in that the most active and dogmatic part within TVP/TZM is within the linguistic team. I would also throw down Gman who is the leader of the linguistic group is more of dogmatic lieutenant/devout worshiper of TVP, TZM and RBE/RBEM (I talk to the guy not a bad guy but very dogmatic). you can often here them saying they need to spread awareness or spread the word. The relatively small Linguistic team constantly looks and translates material into different languages. I don't think it's to far fetch that there doing some form of self brain washing by doing this not to complicated but very repetitious work.

More on the linguistic team
http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/forum/5374/is-the-zeitgeist-movement-a-cult-part-2/#reply-9094d728


@LLCohen "My first question was addressed to both members and non-members and was designed to determine what they saw as the greatest strengths and weaknesses of the Zeitgeist Movement UK. With specific reference to the weaknesses, I asked how these could be resolved. This met with little to no response. I interpreted this lack of response (naturally) as a form of apathy. So I inadvertently discovered a weakness."

This has been done before check out this letter to Peter.
http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/forum/384/letter-to-peter-merola/#post-6612
Peter's response
http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/forum/384/letter-to-peter-merola/#post-6706

The subject of The Zeitgeist Movement, The Venus Project and the concept of a Resource Based Economic Model in general have become a common talking points among many economists with the number set to grow.

@LLCohen Really? I'd like to know there thoughts as well. TVP and TZM typical MO is to ignore people with credentials unless there semi mainstream or unless they support there cause.

@LLCohen what's your stance on a resource based economy or a resource based economic model?

Quote from LLCohen

Those who are fortunate enough to have the education and/or wherewithal can simply walk away from the movements. However, those less educated are susceptible to become victimized by, what is in my view a mindless cult.

That sounds plausible. My own disassociation with TZM was largely due to its lack of critical reflection, open discussion and realistic strategic objectives, weighed against my prospects elsewhere.

If this decision making process is at least somewhat common - and from the interaction with other former TZM members/sympathizers I'd suspect that it is - we'd see the kind of shift you're describing, leaving TZM over time with the kinds of people who don't mind TZM/TVP's particularly cult-ish aspects.

@ LLCohen - it took you 5 years to realize the issues that are clear to every first year student of economics. Weakness? Everything about TZM and RBE screams weakness. Combination of communism and fascism will never achieve what Fresco dreams about all his life, Merola and similar attention whores can spend their days readind Das Kapital all they want but they will still fail to grasp anything of relevance.

THAT is why TZM and RBE don't matter, you cannot make assumptions and act on them if your main premise is wrong and you're an imbecile who lacks any real education. This is not aimed at you.

Quote from Evil Elvis

@ LLCohen - it took you 5 years to realize the issues that are clear to every first year student of economics.

To be fair this is 99.9% of people's responces when confronted with any kind of economic material.

@Evil Elvis I'd agree with that. There whole scheme now instead of promoting collapse porn there trying to scare people with planned obsolescence. Which my thoughts on that are in short that once they have a understanding (I have a small understanding) of the free market economy; They understand that to bank on planned obsolesce in the way they advertise it to come, which they promote it as coming fast and furious is not the way change happens in a free market economy. The freemarket economy is too complicated to just bank on one thing as to destroy it and to bank on just one thing being planned obsolesce out of many other things going wrong is very ignorant and narrow minded (irony that I call them narrow minded, they often call free market supporters narrow minded).

I can respect a person whose lived life, had experience, and got screwed over and now is in TVP/TZM but the majority of these people within TVP/TZM have not tried life and got a education, worked hard, or anything. These people just want to do less and expect more. TVP/TZM as much as they are a religion based around resource based economy or resource based economic model, they are also a group of complainers, who attract the conspiratorial sections of today's society from 9/11 twoofers to medical woo people. Maybe I'd have respect for a individual whose actually tried to better themsevles and I mean TRIED in a honest attempt and they can't seem to get by; I've personally come across a few in my time however I have zero respect or sympathy for individuals who do NOT give a HONEST attempt at life such as what makes up the majority within TVP/TZM.

When I was younger I was one of those fellows who was on his own and did not have a penny to my name. I made it out but again I can understand people who have actually TRIED in a HONEST attempt and for some reason can't seem to make it, sometimes people just get LUCKY and make it deserving or not so deserving they make it some how (some even thank god for making it). However I don't believe in luck, in the long run if a person wants to advance there position in life definitely do not rely on being lucky (I'm not a lucky person), and I do not thank god for the things I accomplished (although I am spiritual my accomplishments are of my own). It takes hardwork/dedication along with blood, sweat, and tears, not luck to get to where a person wants to go.

People often think life is unfair and I have to agree with them life is very unfair. If a person thinks life should somehow be fair then there living in a fantasy world. There definitely not living life if there feeling sorry for themselves bemoaning america or the world. Come to a realization that life is unfair, but that doesn't mean life stops because it's unfair for them , they have to work hard to achieve things for themsevles but realize that others who achieve the same success or better simply may not have to work as hard as others because there a legacy or something else. Life is unfair like that but if a individual works hard they can make it.

I'm not here to give a motivational talk I'm here to talk about reality and even if your in your RBE or RBEM life will be unfair it's always that way trust me it never stops NOT being UNFAIR that is the reality of things. Again bemoaning about how life is unfair will not cut it, life will always be unfair, it's up to the person as to what they do about it. Complaining and not living life or barely living life (bottom feeders) will not cut it.

Quote from JimJesus

I used to be a Green. The more I learned about economics the more I drifted away.

Yeah, that's my experience w/ theoretical Marxism. Sure, some of the ideas are interesting and I wouldn't dismiss all of it, but once you compare them with the contemporary economic concepts, they do seem to have aged rather badly.

I'm still a sucker for heterodox economics, but I'd amplify Burgerguy's argument - not only is it futile to try fixing the world before fixing your own life, but you'll have to do far better than average to have any strategic maneuverability.

Well this is it, TZM consists of kids who never lifted a finger in their life yet feel compelled to change the world, reality, way of thinking, understanding and blah, blah, blah. I usually like arrogant people but there has to be some substance behind the arrogance, otherwise it is just juvenile stubbornness.

OK, I've been watching this for a while now. I'm not seeing a shit stream to laugh at because no body is on it. TZM BOT floods videos of Merola and the other threads are anywhere from 2-4 posts long except the economists thread and thhat's only because they're just rephrasing the same dumb argument against the ECP. "THE ECONOMY IS COLLAPSING, SO IT'S CLEARLY WRONG"

TZM is so fucking dead, it's sad.