Skeptic Project

This topic was created because the original thread got so ridiculously off topic.

Original: http://conspiracyscience.com/forums/topic/article-the-zeitgeist-movement/</p>

Thread rules:
1) This thread is only to discuss the article
2) If you want to argue with someone, create a new thread
3) No off topic posts!

http://conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/</p>

Say "plz."

Well this is off to a typical start.

IF U WANT TO FITE ERIN START A NEW THREAD OMG READ RULES OR I FITE U

Funniest thread all day.

ERIC THE CAT HERDER

nerf herder

I am lol'ing so hard.

THIS IS MADNESS

Good points Kaiser.

I think it's pretty obvious that there's a disconnect between the way the ZM is really structured and the way many of its members think (or wish) it's structured. Merola is the leader, clearly, and he's unusually heavy-handed in brooking no compromise whatsoever. As I recently pointed out to a ZM member who's been emailing me, the ZM is going to have to jettison Merola if they want to have any credibility in the mainstream.

General Problems:
3. They make no effort to actively help anyone.

I personally do. I participated in a food collection effort this year for one.

There are a lot of organizations and individuals doing charity, or fighting to solve particular problems. TZM is not one of them, it is complimentary to them. By having members participate in activities of other organizations and give information on the reason why such particular problem exists. The root causes can start to be fixed.

It's kinda pointless to just spend effort on solving a symptom (like bunch of ppl hungry), if the root cause is not being addressed (bad distribution? something)

I say to other volunteer "let's spend half our time doing this (food collecting) and half our time raising awareness to the Why hungry ppl exist"

TZM is, in this sense, complimentary to all organizations that only focus on a particular problem.

They should really try some form of democracy on those forums - voting for moderators and stuff like that. This authoritarian-anarchy crap isn't working out for them too well.

I say to other volunteer "let's spend half our time doing this (food collecting) and half our time raising awareness to the Why hungry ppl exist"

You can blame it on money but until you find a better alternative (and no, an RBE is not a better alternative), you're never gonna get rid of it.

Agreed with Matt.

One of the charities I'm involved in helps send deserving kids to college. I've personally spent nearly $10,000 of my own money to send a kid (not in any way related to me) to college. He's a very smart guy, likes science and mathematics, and wants to give back to the community. Without the help of this nonprofit, he would not be able to go to college.

I venture to say this one person is going to do more for society than the entire Zeitgeist Movement will ever accomplish. ONE person.

TZM would never in a million years support a charity like this. They think people with education and credentials are meaningless. In fact they have contempt for them. TZM ideology would say my money has been utterly wasted--but that money is actually going to do something tangible for the world.

Welcome TeeZedem. I look forward to discussions with you.

One thing you may want to keep in mind is the tag on the top of this post which is "HERDING CATS." It's really true here. Many of the regulars have different opinions here and we've had some personality clashes based on disagreement with what one or another member thinks is or is not productive discussions about the ZM. Doubtless you'll encounter this wide range of opinion!

Well let's get started, I apologize for the long post.

Stupid law of gravity. If I didn't know it was there I could fly.

TZM doesn’t violate the laws of physics. It doesn’t advocate that you should try.

You think theres a huge change of human consciousness on the cards and all that bullshit?

Yeah I do, much like there was a similar change of consciousness that got the American Revolution started.

Yes, and I'll agree once TZM teaches people anything at all.

Sometimes the tiniest bit of knowledge is enough. For example, how many of you on this forum were taught anything about monetary policy in high school? Or any economics? I wasn’t exposed to any economics until I took a few courses in university. No mention of how money was created in those introductory courses. I had to learn that on my own. It is surprising to me how little people actually know about monetary policy and how money works, considering it is the most important thing in our society.

Sitting on a forum? Handing out DVDs?

You have this expectation that we should go out like gangbusters and start doing things like saving the world. If we go out and do this without a plan it is a lot of wasted and miss-channeled effort. Which is not to say as individuals we don’t do anything, but as a movement we need to consider our direction carefully.

That's what worries me and that's what seperates Marxism from other post-industrial ideas, that it takes generations to start therefore we should trust someone else to help move us there -- I don't have to mention why this hasn't worked many times in the past.

It doesn’t need to take generations, with information so readily available ideas can propagate like wildfire. Think of this site for example, your ideas about conspiracy theories propagate outwards and have much influence on people, perhaps saving them from making a terrible mistake. Likewise I am here to provide some context for your particular beliefs about TZM and TVP.

I think it *is* possible. That's what Peter Joseph doesn't like his members knowing about me. I'm the most widely known critic of TZM on the Internet, yet ironically I believe many of the same things and have the same goals.

So in essence we have a lot more in common than we have differences. We should build on that common ground rather than spend so much time tearing at each others arguments.

Based on what? They just will? I hate to break it to you, people lost faith in government decades ago.

Interesting you should state that and at the same time wonder why Truthers exist? Lets be fair, people don’t trust the government and why should they? For example the second Gulf of Tonkin incident that was partly used to justify military action in Vietnam, there is no evidence that it really happened. Did the government lie or is it just incompetent? Neither is a very palatable scenario. This is not to say you shouldn’t stick to your guns, but be gentler with those that think that their government engages in conspiracy, the track record shows that people are right to be suspicious even if they are not right.

The industrial food system has actually fed more people than regular agriculture ever could. Even Fresco wants complete industrialization and automation of food production and preparation. The reason there is starvation and hunger is because people don't have the capital to buy food, it has nothing to do with industrialization. They can't often grow food in their areas because of overpopulation, drought, and many other reasons so they need to be able to get it from elsewhere, which they can't, regardless of industrialization.

I agree that factory farms have increased the amount of food that can be produced per acre. But you argument that the reason people are starving because they don’t have capital to buy the food is weak. With hydroponics you can grow food in any environment, desert, tundra, ice cap. The idea is that money (i.e. capital) prevents use from feeding people when we have the technology, resources, and labour available to do so many times over is a failure of our imagination and a failure of our present system.

That is a canned Zeitgeister response. It is also totally disingenuous, because it presupposes that if the ZM critic has no comprehensive answer to all the world's problems, which the ZM claims to have, then there is no reasonable objection to pursuing the ZM's agenda and therefore all criticism of the ZM is illegitimate.
The world doesn't work that way.

Ah the "world doesn’t work that way" argument. Unless something we suggest violates the law of physics, then the world works anyway we want it too. We are not being disingenuous if we ask you for alternative solutions; we don’t pretend to have all the answers. For example if you could find a better way to cure society’s ills, or even one ill, we would like to hear it. True we are of the opinion that many suggestions are just bandaids (like more regulations, return to sound money). An RBE is not a panacea for all of our ills, but in my opinion it is a good start.

Nah, I abandoned the idea that TZM will ever make it far enough to become a threat.

Interesting though, how much of your forum is devoted to TZM. I’m culling these comments from a thread that has 33 pages. The largest thread for sure, but one thread of many.

Doctors Without Borders do things. The Zeitgeist Movement makes forum posts about why donating to Haitian relief efforts are bad.

Nobody would accuse all of our members being smart or tactful, and I sure nobody would make the same accusation here of your members. I donated, but I don’t represent everyone’s opinion.

What happens when Merola and the members get big enough and overthrow the government, and he remembers how much he dislikes me? Will he ban me from the movement's meetings? Will I have to go off and start my own movement on the other side of the planet?

Are you worried? We sincerely believe that once people see a working RBE on a small scale, any doubts they have about its ability to prosper will be allayed.

Because as it stands, he does not tolerate healthy criticism. What happens when someone disagrees with him in real life?

People disagree with Peter in real life all the time. What you need to take into consideration is that is takes balls to start a movement; it also takes tenacity to keep it going. It is well and good to have a good idea, but as evidenced here, you’ve got to defend it, and you have to defend all aspects of your life and your ideals. I sure couldn’t do it. And if any of you could, I tip my hat to you.

States typically aren't that welcoming to movements that want to overthrow them, I can't imagine they'll just "wake up" and "get it."

King George was not to keen on welcoming that idea either. Look how far that got him.

Let's talk about that. What are you, Three, doing to stop your movement from spreading conspiracy theories?

We don’t talk about it in our chapter or to the people we talk to about the movement. That seems to be pretty effective at stopping the spread.

According to people like VTV and the the ZGM charity is pointless patchwork, so you should really spend your time spreading the word not with donating money and time helping people.

Pointless is a strong word. Patchwork is true. Charity currently addresses the symptoms of poverty and misery, not the root causes.

So what qualifications does Merola have, in your opinion, to lead this movement?

He put himself out there with his movies and his radio show. He is not a stuttering jackass. That’s pretty good for me.

What has Peter Merola done to warrant the approbation of the people in the ZM who fawn over him?

He has created the rallying point so like minded people can coalesce. Again it takes balls to start a movement that calls for the removal of money and abundance for all.

What has Jacque Fresco done to warrant the approbation of the people in the ZM who fawn over him?

He has lectured and worked to this end (an RBE) for 70 years.

For a movement without leaders, you sure have a lot of leaders.

Yep, anyone with a set, some brains and who can string sentences together in a pleasing, informative manner can step up.

Yes, but what I want is to enslave young children because I might enjoy it. Let's take this off of me actually. There people who are actual pedophiles. Are you suggesting that they like it due to problems attaining resources or monetary issues? What if they just like it for the fun of it?

Smart move, taking it off you. Sexual fetishism and deviance mostly due to environment and repression. People who suffer from guilt and stress about sexual feeling find all sorts of strange and exotic outlets for their desires. The people who like it, I wonder if they still feel guilt and stress over it? I would bet that they do.

My point is that most members of The Venus Project have not taken into account the possibility of deviant behavior. You assume that there is some "correct" set of behaviors that will take place when resources are plentiful.

There is a correct set of behaviour, it is behaviour that your community will tolerate.

What if the child likes it? Now, both parties are happy.

To understand abuse, you need to understand power. If a relationship has an imbalance of power, then it cannot be described as anything but abuse as there can be no true consent. Another word for the phrase imbalance of power is inequality.

I can not train a dog to have sex with a cat, for example. Certain things are ingrained.

Yet he has no problem humping your leg. Unless leg humping is ingrained.

No. Laws do not prevent pedophilia. What I am saying is that
1. it is hypocritical for a movement to declare no laws and then say that something like pedophilia is wrong.
2. I don't understand how an RBE would remove pedophilia from society.

We can certainly declare something as undesirable and to be discouraged. But we don’t need laws to do this. We design the environment to remove the stimulus that causes bad behaviour, and no we don’t design out children, but we investigate the root cause of the attraction, understand it and fix it.

In fact, I'm proposing that pedophilia and incest will run rampant. People will make love to their family members and friends because everyone will love one another. It'll all be bliss.

Geez, because in the years prior that we didn’t have laws to stop this sort of behaviour, this had run rampant. If that was the case we’d all be inbred and we probably wouldn’t have much in the way of technology and civilization. But we would have plenty of banjo’s.

Three,
I do agree that many abhorrent behaviours are a result of our environment, however I disagree that...
1. The Venus Project can ever set up a society where people are conditioned to the extent where abhorrent behaviour doesn't exist.
2. All you need is one SINGLE example of paedophilia to fuck the whole thing up, but that's kind of irrelevant since all you really need is a single example of someone wanting to trade or barter with someone else and the whole theory of Fresco falls apart.

Considering that much of our abhorrent behaviour exists because of our current system of scarcity propagation and inequality, we can reduce much of it by changing our motivations. Technological unemployment is a reality, and this contributes to the stresses that lead to theft, robbery, violence, drug and alcohol abuse, rape, and murder.

Also you speak about an RBE like we would have no power to police ourselves in the event of the scenario you describe. This isn’t true, in a fully mature RBE you wouldn’t have police, but everyone in the community would be responsible for each other. If someone was acting in a harmful way you can bet that your neighbours would stop it.

Peter Joseph is clearly a leader and to say he isn't is just delusional.

Yep that is a fair assessment. But he could certainly be replaced, or could share some of his leadership duties with anyone who was capable.

Three needs an external enemy, just like TZM. Without external enemies, its just another metaphysical forum.

Well isn’t this self-evident? You don’t form a movement without having something concrete to struggle against. Governments use this tactic as well, Cold War, War on Drugs, War on Terror etc. Ultimately what we would like is to have “enemies” that everyone shares in common, like hunger, disease, poverty.

Well, Three wasn't here long but he hit all of the canned Zeitgeister comebacks while he was here. We heard:
1. "The movies aren't the movement"
2. "Peter Joseph isn't the leader"
3. "We are not a cult because we're not religious"
4. "Well, do YOU have a better idea to save the world?"
5. "Zeitgeist 1 is great because it challenges people"
6. "I'm not a conspiracy theorist!" *posts no-planer video*
7. "YOU all are the real conspiracy theorists!"
8. "We've got momentum and will soon achieve critical mass"
Did I miss anything?

I think number one is stupid. Of course both Zeitgeist movies are intimately intertwined with the movement. It is the medium that got us interested in the movement to begin with. It is true as a movement we identify more with ZA, but most of us have watch Z1 as well.

As I said before he certainly fits the bill. Maybe we as a movement would be more comfortable with term “spokesperson”.

No one has asked for any money or for me to sign over my property. In fact they encourage you to go out and read books. And research stuff. Most cults would definitely limit that sort of thing. If you look at the suggested reading list on TVP’s site there is a fair number of books on the list that are mainstream and very intellectual.

Well do you? It is easy to criticize, much harder to offer solutions. You don’t want to listen to our solution, fine. I think it is a great solution and until something better comes along, I’m going to ride this bus for awhile.

Well it has challenged some of you. Special Ed put together this site to debunk a film and a movement. That requires a fair bit of time and effort to devote to fact checking.

Well I’m not going to be posting any 9/11 videos. I believe you can make a convincing case about just about anything as long as you present it to an audience that is not very savvy. I don’t believe that correlation and causation is the same thing.

I’m not even going to address point 7. That is a dumb accusation, us for making it and you for posting it.

You are not going to get anywhere without enough popular support. You have the impression that we are a do-nothing movement. We are talking to other groups who are doing things like open source ecology for example. Those of us who want to jump on board, do so. Just because we identify ourselves as ZM members doesn’t mean we don’t support or collaborate with similar groups with similar ideas. VTV interviews these groups all the time on his show. It all comes down to networking.

I love it when people claim that education is the first step towards social change but then show nothing but contempt for academic institutions.

The contempt stems from the fact that you need a piece of paper to tell people that you actually know what you know. Do you really need a piece of paper to tell you or anyone else that? What is the difference between someone who goes to university and takes Economics and writes all the exams to get a degree and the person who reads all the same books, “audits” all the same classes? I would submit that the person who went through all that trouble to read all the same books and audit the classes would actually have a better handle on the knowledge because they actually wanted to be there. If you are paying for a class, more likely than not you are going to do what you need to do to pass. I acknowledge this is a generalization.

Only in Zeitgeister logic does it make more sense to plan for city building before you build one single house.

The idea is that a city could be a holistic closed system. But I agree we should start on the small stuff first. Even if it provides a slight advantage to maintenance cost, heating, power saving, or durability the idea would catch on.

Fresco did with the money he stole from his former group.

I find I have to take this comment with a grain of salt, if Jacques did steal that money to invest in his place in Venus, Florida, why did no one file charges? Or sue him? Did they have a contract with the original land purchased? How can you sell that land that everyone owns and funnel it to buy one property that he is the sole owner? He would have to have buy in from the rest, or he would’ve had to pay out to his fellow “investors”. I profess I am not a legal expert but Euripide Sneed was speaking about how he and his fellow investors would have no standing in the property in the Venus, which implies he did have standing in the original property. Did he waive his rights?

A: RBE has to be global
B: Nothing that hasn't been tested before will ever be applied globally

An RBE just requires a landmass, any size landmass will do, but the bigger it is the more self-sufficient it will be. We could start by calculating the carrying capacity of a couple of acres. Using arbitrary numbers, let’s say starts out 1 acre = less than one person. Then you work on ways to solve the immediate problems which prevent that acre from totally sustaining that one person. Once you hit 1 acre=1 person you work on increasing that efficiency until 1 acre equal = 2 people. And so on and so forth. So you can work out the micro concepts and take those advancements and apply them to larger and larger communities.

Check out this article <Your politics are boring as fuck>:

I think you would like to know that bkyle took that link back to our chapter forum and posted it as a worthy link to read.