Tags: LOL, Erics new thread was not as successful as planned, HERDING CATS, Falkner pulled out too quickly., OMGZ MOLTEN STEELZ, THE FEDERAL RESERVE MAKES ME POOR!, GOLD STANDARD BLOWS, who added all these stupid tags?, Another stupid tag I added, I LIKE TAGZ, Money is no object!, who didn't added all these stupid tags?, More tags please [ Add Tags ]
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|Eric||Posted: Jul 29, 2010 - 00:58|
Oooh baby, baby, baby, baby, ... EEE baby, baby, baby.
This topic was created because the original thread got so ridiculously off topic.
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|WurmD||Posted: Jul 30, 2010 - 11:27|
Which article? Link to it?
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|Kaiser Falkner||Posted: Jul 30, 2010 - 11:29|
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|sorry||Posted: Jul 30, 2010 - 11:29|
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|Agent Matt||Posted: Jul 30, 2010 - 11:30|
Genuine American Monster
Well this is off to a typical start.
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|Kaiser Falkner||Posted: Jul 30, 2010 - 11:30|
I WIN! SUCK IT AARONMHATCH!
wow... I'm feeling very sassy today.
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|Agent Matt||Posted: Jul 30, 2010 - 11:31|
Genuine American Monster
IF U WANT TO FITE ERIN START A NEW THREAD OMG READ RULES OR I FITE U
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|sorry||Posted: Jul 30, 2010 - 11:32|
Actually, Falkner, you posted the wrong link.
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|Agent Matt||Posted: Jul 30, 2010 - 11:33|
Genuine American Monster
Funniest thread all day.
ERIC THE CAT HERDER
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|anticultist||Posted: Jul 30, 2010 - 11:34|
Brainwashing you for money
Damn Eric is going to have to start a new thread this ones gone well off topic.
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|sorry||Posted: Jul 30, 2010 - 11:34|
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|Kaiser Falkner||Posted: Jul 30, 2010 - 11:34|
Woops, my bad. Aaronmhatch's link is the correct one. Mine is the one that leads to the critique of the movie, not the movement. And since we all know "the movies aren't the movement" my link is of no importance. Apologies to everyone except Aaron.
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|Agent Matt||Posted: Jul 30, 2010 - 11:34|
Genuine American Monster
I am lol'ing so hard.
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|sorry||Posted: Jul 30, 2010 - 11:35|
Non-received apology not accepted.
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|Agent Matt||Posted: Jul 30, 2010 - 11:36|
Genuine American Monster
THIS IS MADNESS
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|Kaiser Falkner||Posted: Jul 30, 2010 - 11:41|
Let's get it back on track then:
"There's no leadership accountability. Peter Joseph is the de facto leader of TZM, there's absolutely no democratic, technocratic, or meritocratic way for anyone else to effect change within the movement. If there was, I imagine that the movies and conspiracy theories would be pushed even further away, and Peter Joseph would no longer be center stage -- which is why it won't happen." (General Problems: Point 1)
I wrote about this on my blog as well, and I think its a fairly salient point for all movements. It is especially a problem considering that the premise behind what TZM wants to accomplish is an RBE independent of the elitist government they see emerging (and TVP has come out and said as much on their own mission statement). What this means, however, is that the movement is also structurally dependent upon the dissemination and creation of information. This not only means technical knowledge (i.e. Jacque Frescoes "expertise," or other engineers and invetors) but also upon the spread of ideas (i.e. the Banking Cartel's control over war, the governments role in bring about the NWO, etc). What is interesting is that there is a tension between the anti-authoritarian attitudes held by members of TZM and the inherent authority structure that exists in the movement. The counter argument would reliably be that there is no formal structure, but then we have to overlook things like moderators on forums and the fact that there are members who wield the power to exclude and those who don't. Even if the leader isn't Peter Joseph, there is still a disparity in power- especially over the spreading of knowledge and membership. Now, if TZM were to admit to this structural tension, they then begin down a logically slippery slope that completely underminds what they think they are trying to accomplish.
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|Muertos||Posted: Jul 30, 2010 - 12:30|
Paid Disinformation Blogger
Good points Kaiser.
I think it's pretty obvious that there's a disconnect between the way the ZM is really structured and the way many of its members think (or wish) it's structured. Merola is the leader, clearly, and he's unusually heavy-handed in brooking no compromise whatsoever. As I recently pointed out to a ZM member who's been emailing me, the ZM is going to have to jettison Merola if they want to have any credibility in the mainstream.
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|Agent Matt||Posted: Jul 30, 2010 - 12:34|
Genuine American Monster
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|WurmD||Posted: Jul 30, 2010 - 13:32|
I personally do. I participated in a food collection effort this year for one.
There are a lot of organizations and individuals doing charity, or fighting to solve particular problems. TZM is not one of them, it is complimentary to them. By having members participate in activities of other organizations and give information on the reason why such particular problem exists. The root causes can start to be fixed.
It's kinda pointless to just spend effort on solving a symptom (like bunch of ppl hungry), if the root cause is not being addressed (bad distribution? something)
I say to other volunteer "let's spend half our time doing this (food collecting) and half our time raising awareness to the Why hungry ppl exist"
TZM is, in this sense, complimentary to all organizations that only focus on a particular problem.
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|Sil the Shill||Posted: Jul 30, 2010 - 13:35|
"It's kinda pointless to just spend effort on solving a symptom (like bunch of ppl hungry)"
I'm sure I could find a bunch of hungry people who would certainly disagree.
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|domokato||Posted: Jul 30, 2010 - 13:36|
They should really try some form of democracy on those forums - voting for moderators and stuff like that. This authoritarian-anarchy crap isn't working out for them too well.
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|Kaiser Falkner||Posted: Jul 30, 2010 - 13:41|
Community service is an admirable thing, and one not dependent upon a revisionist perspective of societal ills. The question is whether or not a type of activism is CENTRAL to the movement or rather tangental. Consider that it is entirely possible for a Marxist to help in a soup kitchen because there is nothing explicitly against it in Marxist doctrine. Now, the Marxist could of course spread his ideology to those he feeds, but, unlike TZM, Marxist doctrine is dependent upon Worker action. You see, community service and help is not central to Marxist ideology and thus not claimable by Marxists as a uniquely Marxist act. Indeed, many capitalists could also help in community service, or- for that matter- anyone with a personal moral center that is indiciative of community service.
The question is whether TZM has an activist aspect that is unique to its own ideology. The movement itself has nothing that actively and uniquely works to reverse the problems it sees beyond spreading the word. By further claiming that TZM is supplimentary to community service, and not vice versa, you are implying that TZM serves an existing structure and does not actively change it. This is a slight but very important distinction.
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|domokato||Posted: Jul 30, 2010 - 13:47|
You can blame it on money but until you find a better alternative (and no, an RBE is not a better alternative), you're never gonna get rid of it.
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|Agent Matt||Posted: Jul 30, 2010 - 14:06|
Genuine American Monster
The problem is that I, along with every psychologist and geneticist, don't believe your root cause.
You cannot overcome this problem.
Science will not allow you to.
I commend you for volunteering your time to charities. You do more for humanity than Peter Merola or Jacque Fresco ever has or ever will.
And I do mean that sincerely.
Hungry people don't give a shit about politics. They don't give a shit about philosophy.
They give a shit about eating food. Nothing more.
These are issues we have the luxury to debate. Hungry people do not.
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|Muertos||Posted: Jul 30, 2010 - 15:32|
Paid Disinformation Blogger
Agreed with Matt.
One of the charities I'm involved in helps send deserving kids to college. I've personally spent nearly $10,000 of my own money to send a kid (not in any way related to me) to college. He's a very smart guy, likes science and mathematics, and wants to give back to the community. Without the help of this nonprofit, he would not be able to go to college.
I venture to say this one person is going to do more for society than the entire Zeitgeist Movement will ever accomplish. ONE person.
TZM would never in a million years support a charity like this. They think people with education and credentials are meaningless. In fact they have contempt for them. TZM ideology would say my money has been utterly wasted--but that money is actually going to do something tangible for the world.
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|Vasper85||Posted: Aug 20, 2010 - 14:34|
I’ve joined the Zeitgeist Movement a few months back. I am a self-appointed advocate for TZM and TVP as it pertains to an RBE. I have a degree in Biology, and I am working as a designated accountant. I don’t live in my mom’s basement and I am not a truther.
I thank you for allowing me access to your forums and I intend to be as respectful as possible. I don’t not require nor expect the same from you. This is your house and I am in it.
There is a lot of material on here and I am currently making a diligent effort to go through it. I admit at first I will probably cherry pick some posts, so feel free to bring your questions that have been unsatisfactorily answered by others, and I will give it my best shot.
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|Muertos||Posted: Aug 20, 2010 - 14:51|
Paid Disinformation Blogger
Welcome TeeZedem. I look forward to discussions with you.
One thing you may want to keep in mind is the tag on the top of this post which is "HERDING CATS." It's really true here. Many of the regulars have different opinions here and we've had some personality clashes based on disagreement with what one or another member thinks is or is not productive discussions about the ZM. Doubtless you'll encounter this wide range of opinion!
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|CyborgJesus||Posted: Aug 20, 2010 - 14:58|
Nice introduction. Hope you'll find what you're looking for.
I agree with some ideas of TZM (Critique of the profit structure), I disagree with the "solutions" they propose (moneyless society, global shift, no gov) as well as their predictions (economy will collapse, TZM will reach crit. mass) and their management sure is a mess.
Promoting critical thinking, while gaining members through pseudoscientific movies (Z1, Addendum to some extent) sounds hypocritical to me, at least when you don't tell them that Z1 isn't a "documentary", but a low budget "Da Vinci Code".
PJ looks like a likable guy, but seems to be extremely insecure. Critical questions become "attacks" or "noise", while he himself was so far unable to admit his mistakes in Z1. That aren't traits of a good leader. The habit of banning people who disagree instead of engaging in debate and improving TZMs philosophy doesn't make the movement more attractive to me either.
That's my very short take on TZM. You'll probably find a couple more, CS is far from being homogeneous.
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|Vasper85||Posted: Aug 20, 2010 - 15:07|
Well let's get started, I apologize for the long post.
TZM doesn’t violate the laws of physics. It doesn’t advocate that you should try.
Yeah I do, much like there was a similar change of consciousness that got the American Revolution started.
Sometimes the tiniest bit of knowledge is enough. For example, how many of you on this forum were taught anything about monetary policy in high school? Or any economics? I wasn’t exposed to any economics until I took a few courses in university. No mention of how money was created in those introductory courses. I had to learn that on my own. It is surprising to me how little people actually know about monetary policy and how money works, considering it is the most important thing in our society.
You have this expectation that we should go out like gangbusters and start doing things like saving the world. If we go out and do this without a plan it is a lot of wasted and miss-channeled effort. Which is not to say as individuals we don’t do anything, but as a movement we need to consider our direction carefully.
It doesn’t need to take generations, with information so readily available ideas can propagate like wildfire. Think of this site for example, your ideas about conspiracy theories propagate outwards and have much influence on people, perhaps saving them from making a terrible mistake. Likewise I am here to provide some context for your particular beliefs about TZM and TVP.
So in essence we have a lot more in common than we have differences. We should build on that common ground rather than spend so much time tearing at each others arguments.
Interesting you should state that and at the same time wonder why Truthers exist? Lets be fair, people don’t trust the government and why should they? For example the second Gulf of Tonkin incident that was partly used to justify military action in Vietnam, there is no evidence that it really happened. Did the government lie or is it just incompetent? Neither is a very palatable scenario. This is not to say you shouldn’t stick to your guns, but be gentler with those that think that their government engages in conspiracy, the track record shows that people are right to be suspicious even if they are not right.
I agree that factory farms have increased the amount of food that can be produced per acre. But you argument that the reason people are starving because they don’t have capital to buy the food is weak. With hydroponics you can grow food in any environment, desert, tundra, ice cap. The idea is that money (i.e. capital) prevents use from feeding people when we have the technology, resources, and labour available to do so many times over is a failure of our imagination and a failure of our present system.
Ah the "world doesn’t work that way" argument. Unless something we suggest violates the law of physics, then the world works anyway we want it too. We are not being disingenuous if we ask you for alternative solutions; we don’t pretend to have all the answers. For example if you could find a better way to cure society’s ills, or even one ill, we would like to hear it. True we are of the opinion that many suggestions are just bandaids (like more regulations, return to sound money). An RBE is not a panacea for all of our ills, but in my opinion it is a good start.
Interesting though, how much of your forum is devoted to TZM. I’m culling these comments from a thread that has 33 pages. The largest thread for sure, but one thread of many.
Nobody would accuse all of our members being smart or tactful, and I sure nobody would make the same accusation here of your members. I donated, but I don’t represent everyone’s opinion.
Are you worried? We sincerely believe that once people see a working RBE on a small scale, any doubts they have about its ability to prosper will be allayed.
People disagree with Peter in real life all the time. What you need to take into consideration is that is takes balls to start a movement; it also takes tenacity to keep it going. It is well and good to have a good idea, but as evidenced here, you’ve got to defend it, and you have to defend all aspects of your life and your ideals. I sure couldn’t do it. And if any of you could, I tip my hat to you.
King George was not to keen on welcoming that idea either. Look how far that got him.
We don’t talk about it in our chapter or to the people we talk to about the movement. That seems to be pretty effective at stopping the spread.
Pointless is a strong word. Patchwork is true. Charity currently addresses the symptoms of poverty and misery, not the root causes.
He put himself out there with his movies and his radio show. He is not a stuttering jackass. That’s pretty good for me.
He has created the rallying point so like minded people can coalesce. Again it takes balls to start a movement that calls for the removal of money and abundance for all.
He has lectured and worked to this end (an RBE) for 70 years.
Yep, anyone with a set, some brains and who can string sentences together in a pleasing, informative manner can step up.
Smart move, taking it off you. Sexual fetishism and deviance mostly due to environment and repression. People who suffer from guilt and stress about sexual feeling find all sorts of strange and exotic outlets for their desires. The people who like it, I wonder if they still feel guilt and stress over it? I would bet that they do.
There is a correct set of behaviour, it is behaviour that your community will tolerate.
To understand abuse, you need to understand power. If a relationship has an imbalance of power, then it cannot be described as anything but abuse as there can be no true consent. Another word for the phrase imbalance of power is inequality.
Yet he has no problem humping your leg. Unless leg humping is ingrained.
We can certainly declare something as undesirable and to be discouraged. But we don’t need laws to do this. We design the environment to remove the stimulus that causes bad behaviour, and no we don’t design out children, but we investigate the root cause of the attraction, understand it and fix it.
Geez, because in the years prior that we didn’t have laws to stop this sort of behaviour, this had run rampant. If that was the case we’d all be inbred and we probably wouldn’t have much in the way of technology and civilization. But we would have plenty of banjo’s.
Considering that much of our abhorrent behaviour exists because of our current system of scarcity propagation and inequality, we can reduce much of it by changing our motivations. Technological unemployment is a reality, and this contributes to the stresses that lead to theft, robbery, violence, drug and alcohol abuse, rape, and murder.
Also you speak about an RBE like we would have no power to police ourselves in the event of the scenario you describe. This isn’t true, in a fully mature RBE you wouldn’t have police, but everyone in the community would be responsible for each other. If someone was acting in a harmful way you can bet that your neighbours would stop it.
Yep that is a fair assessment. But he could certainly be replaced, or could share some of his leadership duties with anyone who was capable.
Well isn’t this self-evident? You don’t form a movement without having something concrete to struggle against. Governments use this tactic as well, Cold War, War on Drugs, War on Terror etc. Ultimately what we would like is to have “enemies” that everyone shares in common, like hunger, disease, poverty.
I think number one is stupid. Of course both Zeitgeist movies are intimately intertwined with the movement. It is the medium that got us interested in the movement to begin with. It is true as a movement we identify more with ZA, but most of us have watch Z1 as well.
As I said before he certainly fits the bill. Maybe we as a movement would be more comfortable with term “spokesperson”.
No one has asked for any money or for me to sign over my property. In fact they encourage you to go out and read books. And research stuff. Most cults would definitely limit that sort of thing. If you look at the suggested reading list on TVP’s site there is a fair number of books on the list that are mainstream and very intellectual.
Well do you? It is easy to criticize, much harder to offer solutions. You don’t want to listen to our solution, fine. I think it is a great solution and until something better comes along, I’m going to ride this bus for awhile.
Well it has challenged some of you. Special Ed put together this site to debunk a film and a movement. That requires a fair bit of time and effort to devote to fact checking.
Well I’m not going to be posting any 9/11 videos. I believe you can make a convincing case about just about anything as long as you present it to an audience that is not very savvy. I don’t believe that correlation and causation is the same thing.
I’m not even going to address point 7. That is a dumb accusation, us for making it and you for posting it.
You are not going to get anywhere without enough popular support. You have the impression that we are a do-nothing movement. We are talking to other groups who are doing things like open source ecology for example. Those of us who want to jump on board, do so. Just because we identify ourselves as ZM members doesn’t mean we don’t support or collaborate with similar groups with similar ideas. VTV interviews these groups all the time on his show. It all comes down to networking.
The contempt stems from the fact that you need a piece of paper to tell people that you actually know what you know. Do you really need a piece of paper to tell you or anyone else that? What is the difference between someone who goes to university and takes Economics and writes all the exams to get a degree and the person who reads all the same books, “audits” all the same classes? I would submit that the person who went through all that trouble to read all the same books and audit the classes would actually have a better handle on the knowledge because they actually wanted to be there. If you are paying for a class, more likely than not you are going to do what you need to do to pass. I acknowledge this is a generalization.
The idea is that a city could be a holistic closed system. But I agree we should start on the small stuff first. Even if it provides a slight advantage to maintenance cost, heating, power saving, or durability the idea would catch on.
I find I have to take this comment with a grain of salt, if Jacques did steal that money to invest in his place in Venus, Florida, why did no one file charges? Or sue him? Did they have a contract with the original land purchased? How can you sell that land that everyone owns and funnel it to buy one property that he is the sole owner? He would have to have buy in from the rest, or he would’ve had to pay out to his fellow “investors”. I profess I am not a legal expert but Euripide Sneed was speaking about how he and his fellow investors would have no standing in the property in the Venus, which implies he did have standing in the original property. Did he waive his rights?
An RBE just requires a landmass, any size landmass will do, but the bigger it is the more self-sufficient it will be. We could start by calculating the carrying capacity of a couple of acres. Using arbitrary numbers, let’s say starts out 1 acre = less than one person. Then you work on ways to solve the immediate problems which prevent that acre from totally sustaining that one person. Once you hit 1 acre=1 person you work on increasing that efficiency until 1 acre equal = 2 people. And so on and so forth. So you can work out the micro concepts and take those advancements and apply them to larger and larger communities.
I think you would like to know that bkyle took that link back to our chapter forum and posted it as a worthy link to read.
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|sorry||Posted: Aug 20, 2010 - 15:34|
I haven't read your whole post, TeeZedem, because I'm on my way out the door. Regarding consciousness, however, it seems that this is a popular word used to describe social awareness. Rather than humans actually being connected via a singular consciousness, it could simply be that an attitude shared by a large group of people brought them together. I don't understand why this similarity in attitude means that there is a collective consciousness permeating human society.
It just seems like a pretentious way of describing a phenomena.
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