Skeptic Project

Why do I get a faint vibe that he's actually saying

"I don't believe what the scientists say. I'm not a scientist. Therefore, the scientists are wrong / lying."

He's friends with truthers, that might blur his point of view.

VTV and Thunder promote conspiracy theories?(new to this type of discussions)anyone got any links showing this

I sent an email to VTV about this, dunno if he will reply or not.

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http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=231&id=288445&limit=10&limitstart=40#290191

After all this time you still don't understand anything about this topic???

You claim
1. "Lakes" of molten metal
2. The "official story" is that the jet fuel melted the core columns "all the way down".

1. MOLTEN METAL:

There was certainly molten metal, there was a lot of metal in the building and the debris pile was hot. So what? It certainly wasn't molten steel and even if there was small amounts could have been produced through oxidisation. But no temperature readings show steel melting temperatures, no metallurgists analysed any of it, no one no one took any pictures and none of it was saved despite clean up crews and firefighters working at ground zero for MONTHS and despite investigations of the steel in the Fresh Kills landfill by various independent researchers.

Molten metal was also described in WTC6, yes Building 6. -- http://tinyurl.com/32lba69 --- It was described as being so hot molten metal was running down the walls and that debris past the columns was red hot, molten and running. Does that mean WTC6 was a demolition? And why do you think truthers never tell you that Building 6 has the same reports when they are talking about molten metal? Why do you still trust them?

2. OFFICIAL STORY/JET FUEL -

Come on, seriously? You seriously believe that that this is what the "official story" says happened? How is it you can be so wrong about absolutely everything? The idea that the jet fuel would melt any of the core columns is absurd let alone" all the way down."

At least try and understand that which you're denying. The jet fuel was just what started the raging fires, office fires are some of the worst fires there can be due to all the combustible materials in the buildings. It is well known that office fires can get up to well over 1000oC and these office fires were started by a lot of burning jet fuel! Now, you don't need to melt any columns they just needed to weaken. The "official story" is that the floor trusses sagged in which pulled in on the perimeter columns (which you can see happening) and the building tips. Its load bearing connections are no longer together and the top block falls on the floor below it. The floors are not load bearing. So you have all that weight crushing ONE floor, then the next, then the next, then the next. It was inevitable and unstoppable. Nothing about melting any of the floors.

You don't need to be a scientist to understand truthers are nothing more than incompetents and liars, I dont understand why you keep trusting them for information.

I'll put some stuff into this, this will be the first 9/11 thing I have ever really contributed too... (this is a bit long and I am sure I can get things wrong so your welcome to do your own research and correct as well as add points as needed.) (most things I didn't know I googled :)

So i saw this

"VTV says: Well the fireman who were cleaning things up remember what they called "lakes" of molten metal. Like you are in a foundry."

My first job was in a foundry and worked it throughout my youth. I consider myself knowledgeable on metals, melting, welding etc... First the melting point of steel really depends on the amount of alloys (mixture of metals) inside of it. Also lets keep in mind when planes, commits and anything else crashes and makes a indentation into something else it causes a hole... This is important as when you put something hot into a hole, not only is it contained but the heat accumulates and gets hotter. Now I'm taking a guess but steel melts around 2500 F (1370 degrees C)(pending on mixture give or take). Look at oven or a firepit, then watch the planes crash into the buildings again.

One has to factor in some other things about 9/11 which I currently do not know off hand but... The buildings are how old, older buildings obviously have been around for awhile, consider NYC history and the area it's in. The geographical location, find some information on the geographic location of where the twin towers are on, that could play a factor as the building may happen to be over top a sewer or the geographical location is not really the best for building anything on. Lets consider the planes themselves and the materials on the planes which is a very big variable it may be possible the planes is made out of something that enhances jet fuel ten fold as well as the building itself. As well as whatever was on the planes themselves has sometype of burning enhancement fuel or bomb as well we really don't know...

I've seen a 9/11 video where a fireman talks about how when they were sifting through the debris how they had to stop every so often because it was so hot... Now lets factor in something here again, the fireman more than like is some dude who lived in NYC his whole life, now as much as he knows about fires, 9/11 is definitely a special case or soemthing you don't see everyday. Now him being a city boy he or she may not understand what a smouldering fire is... But fires can stay alive for a long ass time under a heap of stuff as long as their is enough oxygen getting to it (it could last for weeks). lets also keep in mind and this is purely a accusation but most people that are firefighters in NYC are more than likely 2nd generation handed down from dad to son and that may further along the ignorance of not knowing to much about fires.

here are some interesting finds on wiki about smouldering fires before the fires turn into strong combustable fires.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoulder</p>

"The characteristic temperature and heat released during smouldering are low compared to those in the flaming combustion (i.e., ~600°C vs. ~1500°C)."

"Smouldering emits toxic gases (e.g., carbon monoxide) at a higher yield than flaming fires and leaves behind a significant amount of solid residue. The emitted gases are flammable and could later be ignited in the gas phase, triggering the transition to flaming combustion."

"Many materials can sustain a smouldering reaction, including coal, tobacco, decaying wood and sawdust, biomass fuels on the forest surface (duff) and subsurface (peat), cotton clothing and string, and polymeric foams (e.g., upholstery and bedding materials)."

"World Trade Center Debris: After the attack, fire and subsequent collapse of the Twin Towers on September 11 2001, the colossal pile of debris left on the site smouldered for more than five months[9]. It resisted attempts by fire fighters to extinguish it until most of the rubble was removed. The effects of the gaseous and aerosolized products of smouldering on the health of the emergency workers were significant but the details are still a matter of debate"

Now lets go away from 9.11 here but go more into smouldering files and types of smouldering fires, from wildfires to coalmines smoudlering fires can last for months and even years. I case that stands out in my mind is a coal mind in PA that caught on fire> (article below)

http://www.offroaders.com/album/centralia/centralia.htm</p>

"The ruins of Centralia Pennsylvania no longer exists on some maps. The story began sometime in 1962 along the outskirts of town when trash was burned in the pit of an abandoned strip mine, which connected to a coal vein running near the surface. The burning trash caught the exposed vein of coal on fire. The fire was thought to be extinguished but it apparently wasn't when it erupted in the pit a few days later. Again the fire was doused with water for hours and thought to be out. But it wasn't. The coal then began to burn underground. That was in 1962. For the next two decades, workers battled the fire, flushing the mines with water and fly ash, excavated the burning material and dug trenches, backfilled, drilling again and again in an attempt to find the boundaries of the fire and plan to put the fire out or at least contain it.

All efforts failed to do either as government officials delayed to take any real action to save the village. By the early 1980s the fire had affected approximately 200 acres and homes had to be abandoned as carbon monoxide levels reached life threatening levels. An engineering study concluded in 1983 that the fire could burn for another century or even more and "could conceivably spread over an area of approximately 3,700 acres."
Now in my opinion if you need to make a cheap foundry how would one go about doing it? Well something interesting is you don't need a oven per sey to actually cook the metal I have actually made a oven by digging itno the earth about 3 to 2 feet down at a angle. Basically set a fire down within the earth, keep that going for 1 or 2 hours then put in the metal. The fire will carve and harden the earth around it (keep in mind if your ground is clay like mine the better it is), this is prime time to add in the metal as the heat is built up to such an extent to melt metal. Feed the fires every once in awhile but after a hour or so it should be good enough for casting. The thing to realize here is that one can melt metals pretty much anywhere that can support a oven like self-contained environment for the heat to build up.

Another thing look into nature and extreme example of a foundry like environment is a volcano. Volcano's explode through heat and pressure. The lava starts off in a liquid stage but eventually goes into a type of smouldering magma.

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/what-is-magma-made-of.html</p>

"Magma is primarily made up of elements like oxygen, silicon, aluminum, iron, magnesium, titanium, calcium, sodium, potassium and phosphorous."

Back to 9/11, Lets keep in mind steel is just a metal alloy that is made up of iron and carbon (possibly a few other alloys as well depending but mainly iron and carbon). Is it such a surprise that steel beams can be melted when the environment for such conditions being a hole in a side of a building that has very combustible materials in it could provide the fodder for a oven like environment. Which if you look at those 9/11 pictures it looks like nothing but a giant foundry oven and the planes may provide enough fodder for the fires to have a pretty productive foundry like oven environment.

Let me go on another spiel. I believe their is some sort of engineer group that supports that the 9/11 buildings was some sort of governmental plot that science can prove that the buildings fall was in fact done very methodically. me being a engineer I can tell this group a few things. first of all I know a fellow engineer who doesn't know how to fix a light switch yet has a BA in engineering. I also know that experience accounts 10 fold to theory and class work. I have seen from this engineering Ct engineering group is that they lack a whole lot of experience even though they brag that they have over 25,000 years of experience (work experience that is as a collective whole); I'm going to say they have never really gotten their hands dirty or know such intricate details of combustion. it doesn't take a degree to work at a foundry and i have a feeling most people who work around melting, smelting, or something type of combustible material on a daily bases can tell these engineers a whole hell of a lot not just on 9/11 but very methodical details on melting points of metal etc.. If they had any sense they would consider the possibility that these buildings fell because a giant plane crashed into it but no they don't....

To wrap things up I personally think the buildings fell do to a oven like environment affect when the planes crashed into the building. The temperatures rised to such an extent that it melted things such as steel beams. When the firemen were cleaning things up and saw liquid hot metal and scream conspiracy theory; it's more than likely do to smouldering keeping temperatures up and creating a oven like environment which can produce combustible gas substances as well as raise temptures to such an extent to keep metals hot and even melt metals. Lets not even facotr in that the gas pipes in the building could be obvious fodder for this as well... naw lazer beams direct by Mr.Fresco and hologram planes did it....

I'd like to look at the time of when the planes hit to how long it took for them to collapse. Also if gas pipes were run throughout the buildings.

I'll probably go back onto a foundry forum and ask some guy their opinions about 9/11

http://backyardmetalcasting.com/forums/