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KeppPosted: Oct 13, 2010 - 17:29
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I am having a hard time finding this info for some reason. Do any peer reviewed studies exist confirming global warming skeptics side of the argument?

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MuertosPosted: Oct 13, 2010 - 17:45
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Yes, but "peer reviewed," as I'm sure you know, doesn't mean "unimpeachable." The few peer reviewed materials that do deny global warming, such as the Gerlich and Tseuschner paper claiming global warming violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics (Brad270's favorite), generally make their creators look pretty foolish.

A good source to check anti-AGW bias is SourceWatch (www.sourcewatch.org) which has some good information on global warming denial front organizations. Typically whatever anti-AGW stuff that is or appears to be peer reviewed will be disseminated by a front.

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KeppPosted: Oct 13, 2010 - 17:47
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Thanks!

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sorryPosted: Oct 13, 2010 - 18:07
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This is something I've wondered about. How does the hierarchy of global warming research look? At the top, is there a small number of researchers studying on site, such as at the poles; and then below that is a larger group who take the smaller group's research and expand on that; and then a larger group expands on that research?

If the global warming research goes as described above, how large is the small number of people at the top? Is it feasible for this group to lie about their data, causing a trickling down effect where all subsequent research is flawed? Or, is there enough ability for the subsequent researchers to double check on the primary data?

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Jimmy BiscuitPosted: Oct 13, 2010 - 18:45
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i would defo like some more info on this topic...are there any existing articles on this site...i still find it difficult to navigate and find stuff around here beyong the 'popular articles'

my view is that climate science is not as conclusive as it is presented to us (e.g. is the solar system warming, and if so what are the implication for the notion of man made warming on earth?).

also, the recent climate gate debarcle DID leave some unaswered questions as far as I can tell...e.g. there did seem to be an attempted pervertion of the peer review process.

On balance, i do believe in man made warming, but have a few more unanswered questions that i do about the NWO etc..

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KeppPosted: Oct 13, 2010 - 18:50
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Just for the record I'm not a anthropogenic global warming denier, I just needed the info for a debate.

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Agent MattPosted: Oct 13, 2010 - 18:51
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My skeptic flag goes off whenever anyone tells me that there is conclusive evidence that global warming is a man made phenomenon. A simple glance at the locations of centralized populations vs the landscape today shows that at one point what is now desert was once lush. Heck, according to that PBS documentary series Becoming Human, climate change was one of the major factors in our ancestors becoming more intelligent in order to survive the changes.

So I'm not really sure where I stand on the issue other than to say: climate change is happening and pollution is bad whether its related to it or not. But I don't think it is going to be cause some massive extinction. I think humanity will adapt and overcome as always. Its what we do.

I kinda think environmentalists and their political opponents have hijacked this debate.

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Edward L WinstonPosted: Oct 13, 2010 - 18:54
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Everyone knows the dinosaurs were wiped out by their overuse of SUVs and coal fire power plants.

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GenogzaPosted: Oct 13, 2010 - 19:28
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I have to agree with Matt on this one almost all the way. While I do believe in climate change, I hate what it has become. The far left version of "The War On Terror", with nothing but exaggerations, nit-picking, and fear mongering.

I remember when I first started hearing this type of rhetoric back in high school, and then Waterworld came out like my senior year, and the teachers were leaching on to that movie like it was going to happen by around this time. And just like the 1999, 2000, 2012, Doomsday's, they always seem to get pushed back as the years loom.

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MuertosPosted: Oct 13, 2010 - 19:52
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I disagree with Matt and Genzoga.

To me the science is pretty conclusive. I don't see any way around the conclusion that human activity is seriously and substantially altering climate patterns on the earth. I mean, how much more conclusive can long-term scientific evidence be?

The "debate," to the extent there is one, is totally artificial, at least with respect to the scientific facts of whether climate change is happening and whether humans are causing most of it.

I think the question "what do we do about global warming" is a totally separate one, and that clearly is a legitimate debate. I agree with Matt to the extent that, humanity will adapt and we'll find some way to either reverse it or mitigate it, eventually. It won't be a mass extinction or doomsday unless we're really fucking stupid as a species, and I don't think we're that stupid. Personally I don't agree with the idea of carbon taxes. But when you have entire nations such as Vanuatu and the Maldives who are literally going to be wiped off the map in 50 years' time, I don't see how you avoid the conclusion that some action must be taken.

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CyborgJesusPosted: Oct 13, 2010 - 19:59
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I'm with the lefties. Their argument - that further warming will enable a huge chain of positive feedback, the effects of which are hard to predict and that even the models, which were too conservative in guessing where we would be by now, seem to be united in the point that long-term results will be devastating for people & natural environments - does make more sense to me than any of the "weeeeell, it's always worked out well in the past"-alternatives.

Will climate change make the whole world an uninhabitable place of doom (DO WE HAV TO BUILD UNDERWATER CITIES NAO)?
Most likely not. But I still would stay away from property near seawater, and keep an eye on international spread of disease and vermin.

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Agent MattPosted: Oct 13, 2010 - 20:04
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@Muertos,

I never said that humanity doesn't contribute or alter climate change. I said I don't buy into the idea that humanity causes climate change, which is a favorite meme of the far left and the enviro-nuts.

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GenogzaPosted: Oct 13, 2010 - 21:52
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Life's Too Short

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Muertos,

My biggest problem has always been with the solution. And while I do agree we(humans) are contributing to the warming, and the science does suggest this, I just have to be skeptical that there's some exaggeration when the science is not consistent in it's projections. The only consistency I've found is in the rhetoric. Personally I try to stay away from this topic, because it always ends up the same way: Countless sites everyone here can go back and forth on, from countless scientists, giving countless explanations, with countless rebuttals.

But going back to the solution, which really pisses me off, is that it always comes back to the same thing(And this is where the politicians come in) : Carbon Tax.

So the worlds best scientists can agree that we're destroying our planet(Which is obvious), but they can't seem to find out a way(cheaper alternatives) other then to ask for money?

Now I don't know about the rest of you all here, but anytime a solution ends in "We need your money," I instantly become skeptical.

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Agent MattPosted: Oct 13, 2010 - 21:58
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I don't think a carbon tax would work. I think the best solution is to put federal money into R&D of renewable resources, which the current administration has done. What's the point in buying solar panels made in China if your goal is helping to reduce climate change?

Also I think we need to bring nuclear power back to the table.

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MuertosPosted: Oct 14, 2010 - 00:21
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I think the best solution is to put federal money into R&D of renewable resources, which the current administration has done. What's the point in buying solar panels made in China if your goal is helping to reduce climate change?

Agreed 100%. Massive federally-spearheaded R&D program designed to wean us off fossil fuels in 10 years or less. Put the same level of political urgency and resources behind it as we did World War II or even the moon program.

It's a win-win. If global warming is as bad as the scientists say it is, and I believe it is, then we've dodged that bullet. If global warming isn't as bad, then we've weaned ourselves off fossil fuel, achieved substantial energy independence and can say a big "fuck you" to every oil-producing country in the world, especially those we pretend to like but secretly hate, such as Saudi Arabia.

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EdPosted: Oct 14, 2010 - 07:36
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I never said that humanity doesn't contribute or alter climate change. I said I don't buy into the idea that humanity causes climate change,

Both are true. Also, climate change occurs naturally but humans are accelerating it to degrees that will cause highly undesirable results from the environment.

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Agent MattPosted: Oct 14, 2010 - 07:55
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Industry is what will develop the renewable resources needed to wean ourselves off fossil fuels, therefore the anti-industry rhetoric of the far left and most environmental groups* is counter productive.

That's the only real stance I have on this issue.

*This does not apply to NRDC or the Nature Conservancy, both of which I consider to be fairly reasonable organizations and I have financially supported both. But Greenpeace and the Sierra Club suck balls.

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Jimmy BiscuitPosted: Oct 14, 2010 - 09:47
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You guys are forgetting the most important points!!

We all know that man made global warming is a hoax, simply used to usher in the first global taxation sytem in history (carbon taxes), which is of course one step closer to a one world government, orchestrated by that pesky NWO.

Don't forget as well that there is all that free energy capability that has been backward engineered from all those UFO reckages. The NWO is holding this technology back of course, providing further necessity for a global tax to limit carbon emissions.

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Agent MattPosted: Oct 14, 2010 - 09:56
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How would a global tax even work? The IRS can't stop people from cheating on their income taxes.

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sorryPosted: Oct 14, 2010 - 10:04
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What does people cheating have to do with how the global tax would work? What's of more importance is who would enforce it and do the accounting. Would the tax be a flat rate across the world?

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Agent MattPosted: Oct 14, 2010 - 10:06
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Because if a domestic income tax can't even be enforced, why should I think a global carbon tax can?

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sorryPosted: Oct 14, 2010 - 10:16
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What percentage is caught cheating on the national income tax? What percentage is assumed to be cheating?

I don't know if a carbon tax is a good idea. I also don't know if its enactment ought to be decided based on its efficacy.

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Agent MattPosted: Oct 14, 2010 - 10:17
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"But I don't know if its enactment ought to be decided based on its efficacy."

Then what's the point?

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sorryPosted: Oct 14, 2010 - 10:20
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If the enacters had a plan that would successfully enforce and account for say 90-95% of all people, that might be sufficient enough for them to pass it.

Of course, how they'd do so is anyone's guess.

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Agent MattPosted: Oct 14, 2010 - 10:24
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Well that's just it, I don't think it is possible to successfully enforce a fair, global carbon tax. A cursory glance at the environmental practices of our commercial competitors seems to support this opinion.

I don't really see why Americans should pay higher taxes just because some island that's going under water is going under water regardless when we have absolutely no reason to think other countries will follow a global tax in good faith.

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sorryPosted: Oct 14, 2010 - 10:28
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I feel like the different countries today are akin to the different provinces in the US 1700s. Eventually, the sovereignty will be sacrificed, and a global government will make each country like a state is in the US today.

Maybe robots and satellites will manage these global mandates. :P

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Agent MattPosted: Oct 14, 2010 - 10:32
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I don't see that comparison at all. There is a massive cultural difference between provinces in the 1700s in a domestic context and nations today in a global context.

I would go so far as to say a global government is impossible.

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sorryPosted: Oct 14, 2010 - 10:41
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I find that interesting, seeing as how I think it's inevitable given the impact globalization has had via technological, cultural, political, economic, and ethical milestones of the past 100 years.

Why do you think it's impossible?

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Agent MattPosted: Oct 14, 2010 - 10:47
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Genuine American Monster

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Because globalization is guided by trade and profit, not altruism.

What ethical milestones have been achieved in Africa aside from the ending of apartheid? What ethical milestones have been achieved in India or China?

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sorryPosted: Oct 14, 2010 - 10:55
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I don't know enough about Africa's history, but the apartheid seems like a pretty big deal. The continent has become significantly more industrialized, with many outsiders coming in to build schools, hospitals, and to provide altruistic aid. I see Africa being saturated with outside assistance and domination.

The progress of multiculturalism from the past century makes me wonder how much further it will go in the next. Will the United States erase state borders? Certainly, I think that would happen before a global government takes power.

If you were to disagree that the states will eventually drop their boarders or at least drop their state laws and regulations, what is going to stop it? Is it the states' desire to maintain their sovereignty for cultural or historic pride? Are there any practical - by that I mean extremely necessary - reasons to maintain the sovereign borders? I understand the practicality of local government branches; other than that, is there a practical reason?

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