Skeptic Project

OK, I've got my dander up now. This Greyson Curnutt character came to the Facebook topic to try to "make peace" and has ended up peddling the Zeitgeist Movement line that charity is "a band-aid on a knife wound" and a total waste of time.

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=69507397806&topic=16582

I'm sorry, this pisses me off. Seriously.

These people really have no clue, no empathy, and no understanding of how the real world works.

The idea you'd disregard charity and volunteer work as even an option, and instead say only world revolution would work, is ... I don't even have a word, border-line sociopath maybe? I wouldn't go that far with most, actually, because I don't think they really think the whole thing through. They don't realize that in the mean time millions would starve to death and die of preventable diseases (even though many TZM members are anti-vaccination anyway). Anyone who understands this and still says charity is bad, instead only work on TZM, is probably a sociopath.

Maybe Greyson means well, but the damage is done, TZM is a sinking ship and a waste of time. It's already automatically equated with stupidity and conspiracy theories.

Maybe he should talk to that TZM girl who can make $60,000 a year sitting on the toilet.

I'd understand the position IF they had some practical means of changing the circumstances these people live in. But they don't, and I doubt that TZM is actually interested in the third world. They like to have their RBE for themselves; nothing wrong with that, but then pissing on people who actually want to help is just idiotic.

This is standard protocol for them, they all believe this and state it openly whenever they get the chance.

I have a few of them peddling that shit on my blog and I replied in the same way, I find it dispicable that they cant even comprehend how callous they are.

I hesitate to revisit the conversation because it makes me cringe. I literally feel dirty dealing with these people. It's been a long time since a CT pissed me off on that level.

ME: I just got told by a Zeitgeist Movement member that my charity activities are a waste of time. Nice compassion there, buddy! #TZM #TVP #RBE

[these are the hashtags this Lightrider guy has been using to promote TZM]

Lightrider: You cannot solve the problems of the monetary system by working with the monetary system.

Me: Tell that to the kid in the Philippines whose sight I saved by donating my glasses. How is your ideology going to help him?

Lightrider: My ideology helps nobody. Technical solutions to common human problems is what is helpful. Why not give glasses 2 all who need them

Me: I cannot believe I'm reading this. How can you be against charity? That is absolutely monstrous.
Me: For people who claim to want to save the world, you Zeitgeisters have remarkably little compassion. #TZM #TVP #RBE

Lightrider: When we build compassion into the mechanisms of our society, we will not need to have charitable efforts as an afterthought. #TZM

Me: I never would've believed I'd be criticized for trying to help people, but that's what the Zeitgeist Movement just did. Sick. #TZM #TVP #RBE

Lightrider: I understand that is difficult for you to process the ideas that we propose. I hope you see that there is not only negativity. #TZM
Lightrider: To be clear, the movement is not against charity or charitable efforts. The person who told you that is giving their own opinion.
Lightrider: Our focus is creating a resource based economy that provides abundantly for all people using science and technology. #TZM #TVP #RBE
Lightrider: I would like to thank you for being selfless in your efforts. The point is that ultimately charity will not solve our problems.
Lightrider: Not as long as we continue 2 support and maintain an inherently self destructive monetary system that creates poverty intentionally
Lightrider: It is likely that we agree more than we disagree. I am sorry that you keep getting negative messages, but that is not our intention
Lightrider: I hope you stop painting all people who identify with the movement with the same brush of negativity, as it is simply not true.
Lightrider: Thank you for helping make people aware of the movement though, and I hope you realize that we are working for your benefit. #TZM

Me: You are not working for my benefit. You are working for the benefit of one person: Peter Joseph Merola. #TZM #TVP #RBE
Me: And if you think I will give any quarter to your disgusting and dehumanizing ideology, you are sorely mistaken. #TZM #TVP #RBE

Lightrider: To the contrary, we are not at all dehumanizing or disgusting. Although it might seem so from the perspective of our current system
Lightrider: I hope you are one day soon relieved of your fear and aggression because I am sure you are not at all happy being vitriolic.

Me: Your ideology is vile at its very core. It is irrational, emotionless, inhuman and fulsome.#TZM #TVP #RBE

Lightrider: I disagree with that assessment, but I suspect you are far too emotional to understand why. I hope you reconsider your position.
Lightrider: Thank you again for engaging me in discussion. I hope that you realize directing your anger at the powerless is not helpful to any1

Me: I am not directing anger at the powerless. I'm calling out charlatans and conspiracy theorists for the liars that they are.
Me: You're duping gullible people into supporting a dangerous authoritarian ideology, and I won't sit still for that. #TZM #TVP #RBE

Lightrider: The only authority we recognize is reality and the emergent nature of the universe. We promote no tyrant or theological leader.
Lightrider: It seems that you are confusing our message and ideas with something else. I urge you to learn more about what we r actually doing.

Me: The message your movement sends is very clear: agree with Peter Joseph Merola on everything, especially his conspiracy theories.
Me: How you can follow such a leader, and think that his ideas are worthy of rational consideration, astonishes me.

Lightrider: Peter is not the leader of anyone. He makes films that are in support of the movement and Venus Project. You are incorrect on that.
Lightrider: Secondly, Peter has publicly stated that we are not at all focused on the true cause of the attacks of 9/11. It is useless to argue
Lightrider: on this issue because it will not likely bring about relevant change. As I said, I hope you learn more about what you criticize.
Lightrider: I am sure your efforts can be far more useful doing something other than attacking what you don't understand. I hope I have helped.

This conversation almost made me ill. Literally. I don't even want to answer this guy because just talking to him makes me feel soiled and unclean somehow.

How can these people live with themselves?

Its an excuse not to give up any of their own luxuries.

That's what its really about.

I don't usually get emotionally invested in arguments with CTs but this one really brought me down. I don't even know if I have the strength to argue with Zeitgeisters for a while after this. I mean, how do you get lower than attacking someone for doing charity?

I heard on the CBC today that people are dying from cholera because supplies that have already been bought and paid for by money supplied by charitable donation is being held up at the port in Haiti by red tape (read: officals are waiting for bribes).

Charity is what we have to do to make up for the inadequate nature of the current system.

I fully support charities and volunteering, because right now, we got nothing better and it drives me crazy that people go without food and clean water when our politicians could say, "fuck this defense budget, let's build desalination plants and vertical farms instead, and while we are at it, let's educate a fuckload of those motherfuckers with the leftovers, because goddamn it, I'm tired of blowing shit up." I have to do something, so I donate and volunteer.

Case in point South Korea announced a significant increase to their defense budget next year, that already sits at 27 billion dollars. Could you imagine the good that could be accomplished with 27 billion dollars? Could you imagine the good that could be accomplished with the US defense budget? But instead we build products that are meant to be destroyed and have a narrow functional purpose and that purpose usually is the destruction of infrastructure and death of other human beings. That to me is sociopathic.

So Muertos how about it? Can you reconcile the schizophrenic nature of the current system? That we waste enormouse amounts of resources so we can build death machines, but at the same time sacrifice our time and money to help the unfortunate, there is no other way to characterize that but as schizophrenic.

Well you've missed the point as you tend to do. The waves of charity that donated the money to prevent this very problem by purchasing the needed supplies(clean water and proper sanitation) sit stranded because individuals in the Haitian government need their "fees". This behavior is pathetic. But this behavior is not surprising considering that the primary motive that drives society is that of profit. This is in direct conflict with the notion of giving.

Obviously the system of charity is inefficient, so what do we do about it? How about we try to make an environment where either charity wasn't needed because resources were made abundantly available or at the very least find some way of minimizing this need to profit at any expense so as to get people the help they so desperately need. But we can't fix the problem Matt until we recognize that 1) there is a problem and 2) what is the cause of that problem.

I'm going to go out on a limb a paraphrase something I read from Einstein, although I couldn't source it. "If I were to go out and solve the problems of the world, I would use 99% of my time to thoroughly understand the nature of the problems and with the remaining 1% I would come up with the solution."

We can continue down the path of dealing with problems in an ad hoc fashion or we can figure out the the root cause of the problem and fix the supporting system to solve it and prevent future problems.

Charity is an ad hoc solution, it is there to smooth over problems after they have arisen, it does not prevent problems nor address the root cause of what created the problems to begin with.

So when you all get all fired up because one of our members says "charity is a band-aid" this is the context in which we speak. We are emphatically not against helping out our fellow man who is clearly suffering, of course we want to help and we do what we can as individuals. We are emphatically for addressing the cause of the problem before it becomes a problem, thus preventing the suffering in the first place. I don't see what is so hard to understand about that.

So Muertos how about it? Can you reconcile the schizophrenic nature of the current system? That we waste enormouse amounts of resources so we can build death machines, but at the same time sacrifice our time and money to help the unfortunate, there is no other way to characterize that but as schizophrenic.

I don't have to "reconcile the schizophrenic nature of the current system," whatever it is you think that means.

I'm helping kids who need help. The Zeitgeist Movement is not. The Zeitgeist Movement tells me that what I'm doing is pointless. That is insulting and wrong.

Claiming "we don't oppose anybody doing charity" is ridiculous, because you don't believe in charity. It's the same as saying, "Fine, go waste your time, silly misguided person, there's nothing good that will come of it anyway, but I'm not going to waste MY time by actually helping people because I'm building a Resource Based Economy!"

It's an excuse for doing nothing.

And trying to justify your ideology by claiming there's some sort of huge collapse coming merely highlights how closely TZM is wedded to conspiracy theories. Praying for an economic and social collapse to validate your own program is classic conspiracist thinking.

Is there a "problem" in the sense that there is a panacea for it that you can download in PDF format?

No, there is not.

@Matt

Exceedingly helpful and illuminating as always.

Don't you get it! charity/volunteering is just a band-aid fixes! You gotta spread Peter's movies around and make him famous to cause any real change! You've gotta tell people about the Venus project and how great it is and show people 3d models of toy buildings, and show them toy cars and toy trains with toy people with toy people smiling faces.

I often called myself a bit of a Fresco everytime I think back to when I was a 12 year old lego builder building, lego buildings, lego trains, lego people, lego robots, legos cars. I to am a Fresco as well I have been thinknig bout making a website dedicated to the venus project but creating venus project themes but with legos. even making a Venus project lego theme park!

Once again TZM cloaks its true motives by saying, "Pay attention to what we say, not what we do."

TZM helps no one. So far as I know not a single child has been fed, not a single meal has been served, not a single item of clothing has been donated to a needy person as a result of official action by the Zeitgeist Movement.

Your priorities are posting on an Internet message board to "get the word out" about your supposedly great world-changing solution to all our problems. It's clear TZM believes this to be a better use of its time than actual efforts to help real people in the real world.

Since TZM takes no real action to help people, why should I credit off-the-cuff statements by individual members that "we want to help people" and "we support charity?" Put your money where your mouth is, TeeZedem.

Oh, I forgot. TZM doesn't even want to raise money. Well, forget it then.