Skeptic Project

"In the past 2 weeks I've actually been impressed with aj because he's reeeally been talking a lot of sense." - Brenton Eccles

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=231&id=242914&limit=10&limitstart=10

The irony of your signature is delicious:

""One of the reasons for conspiracy theories is an assumption that people in high places always know what they are doing. When they do something that makes no sense, devious reasons are imagined by conspiracy theorists, when in fact it may be due to plain old ignorance." T. Sowell"

Doublethinkdoublethinkdoublethink.

I hope Brenton comes back, because I had ideas for threads to start about ZM, but there's no point if there is no one to argue with.

Frankly, Alex has been talking a lot of sense. I don't normally listen to him ever, but just out of curiosity I thought I'd check out his commentary on the healthcare bill - and I saw him strictly analyzing it from a point of quoting exactly what's in the bill, as opposed to theorising what it implies.

There is no doublethink whatsoever.

I've never contradicted myself here at all.

I'm somewhat disappointed in Peter banning Ed, but I haven't decided how to deal with it yet.

I should add that I've been absent because I've been extremely busy. Among other things, I got accepted to be involved in the makePOVERTYhistory road trip (http://theroadtrip.com.au/) after applying and being picked with 1,000 others out of 1,700 applicants.

"Frankly, Alex has been talking a lot of sense. I don't normally listen to him ever, but just out of curiosity I thought I'd check out his commentary on the healthcare bill - and I saw him strictly analyzing it from a point of quoting exactly what's in the bill, as opposed to theorising what it implies."

Which is why your old blog links Alex Jones. Maybe you should listen to him on a regular basis so you could see what a nutjob he is.

But please give us the perspective of an Australian teenager on the healthcare bill, by all means.

"There is no doublethink whatsoever."

lol

"I've never contradicted myself here at all."

lol

"I'm somewhat disappointed in Peter banning Ed, but I haven't decided how to deal with it yet."

You can't even get Merola to stop embarrassing your movement with 911 stuff. As if you could "deal with it" in the first place.

"I should add that I've been absent because I've been extremely busy. Among other things, I got accepted to be involved in the makePOVERTYhistory road trip (http://theroadtrip.com.au/) after applying and being picked with 1,000 others out of 1,700 applicants."

Kudos on doing something worthwhile, but being so busy didn't seem to stop you from making a podcast about ZDay or posting on the Zeitgeist forums. So I kinda question that's why you've been absent, and I think you're making an excuse for always losing the argument here.

But welcome back Brenton!

Welcome back Brenton. I am also glad you're doing something to help real people beyond the Zeitgeist Movement.

As for contradictions, I'm curious if you'd like to revisit a statement that you previously made on this forum.

"I certainly advocate showing it [Zeitgeist I] to conspiracy theorists, because, if you show them ZI and then follow with ZII you have an opportunity to reorient then away from those views as far as possible. So despite the huge problem of the first film, it can be (and has been by me) used in that way to move people away from caring about that nonsense."

In this post you declared ZI a "huge problem," presumably because of the conspiracy theories. That's precisely the sentiment that Peter Merola sharply disagreed with when he banned Ed. Also, I'm curious, if you want to move people away from caring about that nonsense, would one of the people you want to reorient be Peter Merola, considering he is the chief conspiracy theorist in your movement? If so, would you be comfortable stating that to Merola point blank, that he needs to be reoriented away from conspiracy theories?

Not trying to be snarky at all, but I'm just interested in how this contradiction will be resolved.

"Matt, What 'old blog'? I have no recollection of linking AJ."

The blog you had linked from your Zeitgeist forum profile. I don't really feel like bothering to proxy my way past the ban right now to bother with it. I saw it, I know I saw it and you would have some goofy rationalization for having it there in the first place anyways if I made the effort.

"my location has no relevance to my thoughts on the healthcare bill. I'm personally biased if a healthcare model does not follow the Nordic type of system (Norway & Iceland) because they've got the best track-record."

So basically you have no idea how the American political system works, and in typical Zeitgeister fashion you are just telling people what you like.

Gotcha.

The Green Party you claim to love so much will never have a chance in the American political system. Mostly because it refuses to distance itself from shit like Zeitgeist and conspiracy theories.

"By 'deal' with Ed's banning, I meant to make (public) comment on it on the forums - because that's all I really can do, and thus elicit others rethinking his banning."

Why don't you tell Merola he is full of shit and ruins the movement with his conspiracy theories? I mean, as long as he is involved it only creates enemies for you. What does Merola do for you other than attract people you claim to not want?

I don't really understand how you do this mental dance. Could you explain it?

"I can't "reorient" Peter. All I can do is hope that he'll do it himself. It's obvious that meeting Jacque Fresco was lifechanging for Peter."

So lifechanging he still can't admit to being wrong. He can't do the one thing most adults on the planet are capable of doing. But hey, he went to Fresco's igloo and became a changed man and stuff.

"I think -most- still agree (at least) with his philosophy of environmental (and thus human) sustainability."

I don't. I think assholes like Fresco have hijacked the environmental and ecological movement and turned it into a circus sideshow. He has done nothing for the planet or humanity. All talk and pretty pictures, nothing of substance or merit whatsoever. What does Fresco really do for a starving African family while he waters his twenty five acre lawn anyways?

"I can't "reorient" Peter. All I can do is hope that he'll do it himself."

An interesting statement.

To what degree, if any, Brenton, are you willing to publicly disagree with Peter Merola?

You have stated that the conspiracy theories that he so cherishes, and continues to believe are the #1 most important recruiting tool for the Zeitgeist Movement, are "nonsense." Are you therefore willing to make either of the following statements--?
1--You think Peter Merola is wrong in believing in "nonsense" conspiracy theories? -Or-
2--You disagree with the emphasis that Merola himself has placed on conspiracy theories as his main recruiting tool?

When you were here last your main point, it seemed to me, was that those of us on this forum who disagree with the Zeitgeist Movement because of its emphasis on conspiracy theories are not being fair to the movement, presumably because conspiracy theories are little more than a minor detail.

Is this still what you believe? Do you feel that Merola's avowed emphasis on conspiracy theories, as stated in his message banning Ed (and as stated in his action of banning Ed, which you claim to disagree with), is inconsistent with the position you've taken here on this forum?

If you're willing to overlook Merola's conspiracy theorizing, does that you mean you condone him lying to his audience in order to serve the "greater good" of getting people interested in Jacque Fresco's drawings? Or does it bother you? Even just a little?

"Matt, What 'old blog'? I have no recollection of linking AJ."

http://hollur.blogspot.com/2009/04/epidemic-swine-flu-report.html</p>

You've got a bad memory, Brenton.

I don't believe a film can even begin to change the world, far from it.

If you were as busy as me, you would forget about a blog that you never used more than a few times, too. I recall linking to Alex's flu rants because he was being critical of what was obvious harping over a weak strain. However, as I've expressed on here before: I'm not anti-vaccine, and I actually praise the WHO - one of our international organizations thatre absolutely wonderful.

Please, instead of reading into a statement I make -ask questions- about that statement. No to fundamentalist Christianity, weapons, etc - that should be obvious. Yes, to a culture that cares about how it's society is managed (his conspiracy theories aside).

Just as I'm able to ignore your silly continuous position of aggression, I'm able to see past Alex's shortcomings. That's all I care to say on the man.

And why would I compare homosexauls to pedophiles when I myself am gay?

It's like as if you play some sort of convenient game where you can forget details about me that you KNOW, whereas conveniently remember others. You know I'm gay, you know I am pro everything that is actually progressive (and therefore stand against alex's solutions) - when I make simplistic statements without expanding on them don't fucking read into them and take them slas they are - because that's how I intend statements I make like that to be seen.

Muertos, I disagree with them on lots of things.

I don't like Peters rhetoric on the first film - if the movement is evolving then so should it's stance on ZG1.
The movement should be doing proactive things with the people it has, this is why i work with other orgs.

I recently heard Fresco saying that everyone cooking their breakfast in their own home is "big business" and that such things should be done on industrial production levels. Well, I fucking hate industrial production everything mentalities ... And I love cooking, and nobodys gonna make me or anyone else go to an industrial size centre to have our food cooked for us, fuck that. Inventing in the kichen is like meditation to me, and ant society that thinks that should not exist can crawl up its own ass.

"Is this still what you believe? Do you feel that Merola's avowed emphasis on conspiracy theories, as stated in his message banning Ed (and as stated in his action of banning Ed, which you claim to disagree with), is inconsistent with the position you've taken here on this forum?"
he has inconsistency with himself. on one day z1 is not the movement, yet people who aggressively pursue it's problems are removed.

I agree with you Matt, there is this major inconsistency. If ZM was totally distanced from conspiracy it would be nowhere near the emotionally charged environment it is.

I think about leaving every day.
I agree with the need for resource management, etc, etc, and did before ever seeing z:a but ...
I've seriously been thinking about Con Sci Ed's proposal to create an organisation to pursue social change both practically (eg., making communities more resilient) and communicatively.

Matt, I'm deleting that blog because I don't even know why it's online. The blog I do use can be found at brentoneccles.wordpress.com

>> I recently heard Fresco saying that everyone cooking their breakfast in their own home is "big business" and that such things should be done on industrial production levels. Well, I fucking hate industrial production everything mentalities

Well the central purpose of the technocratic ideals of The Venus Project are automation of as much as possible, and that's in direct contrast to home cooked meals. Of course, I also like cooking, and I enjoy home cooked meals, but many of those towards the center of the technocratic movement and its spin offs (such as the venus project) basically view the world in a Soylent Orange and Soylent Red (no people though).

"And why would I compare homosexauls to pedophiles when I myself am gay?"

I didn't say you did. I was attempting to point out the absurdity of a gay person being a fan of a homophobe like Alex Jones. He hates gays, man. He's a Bircher.

"when I make simplistic statements without expanding on them don't fucking read into them and take them slas they are - because that's how I intend statements I make like that to be seen."

Oh Brenton, your movement is doomed to failure and this is why. You absolutely will not accept that you can't control peoples' perceptions. When you figure that one out, life will be so much easier.

I actually think you're a pretty decent, if infuriating, kid. I'd like to see you bail on this stupid shit and spend your energy doing something worthwhile.

Believe it or not, I'm a progressive myself. But stuff like Zeitgeist and TVP destroys your ability to speak to anyone but the choir.

Check the edit, Brenton. You should really read up on the John Birch Society, their literature formed much of his beliefs.

I don't think you would like the John Birch Society.

"It's just that, to me, when someone makes a simple statement the higher intellectual thing to do is ask questions - not to assume."

When you refuse to give straight answers to peoples' questions, all they have left is assumption and perception. This is not the first time we have had a disagreement Brenton, this thread does not exist in a vacuum.

You're so damn cocksure about this stuff and you can't even remember what you've said, when you've said it or what blogs you've had. I mean Jesus man, I'm a pothead and my memory is better than this.

"I don't care much for who he was influenced by (you're talking about Jones, not Fresco?), because I don't actually support him other than listening to him sometimes. And that's not what he wants - he wants finance."

Interesting. I'm not even gay but when someone says all gays are child molesters the rest of their perspective is probably pretty suspect.

This kinda speaks volumes about your inability to differentiate between good information and bad information. Please don't take that as an insult, because it isn't. But you really need to work on how you analyze information, especially information that says it has all the answers. No one has all the answers.

On that old blog, you linked a WorldNetDaily article. WorldNetDaily is a crazy, fundamentalist Christian fringe rightwing site.

Alex gets a lot of his stuff from there. I just find it amazing that you would source people who are the very social problems you claim to want to fix.

"Believe it or not, but I actually do question Fresco's proposals. Especially since, prior to PJ's lectures: he had nothing but the anecdotes he's infamous for."

Thanks for saying that. I honestly cannot figure out what this guy has done for anyone. I can't find any humanitarian efforts he has been involved in whatsoever. It is all fringe conspiracy crapola.

"As I noted, I'm honestly on the brink of leaving and starting an organisation ( hopefully with Edward, since he's hinted this to me ) that seriously pursues methods of improving human society while maintaining intellectual integrity. It'd be great to see something HONEST go viral for once."

I wish you nothing but the best of luck doing so. And if you keep it free of woo, you just might find me supporting it.

"You're right. I have contradicted myself for the ZM, and that's what the game of "my politics" causes. I'm sorry (and I really mean that - I shouldn't be aggressive toward you and neither should you toward me - when and where we can help it). Let's start a clean slate based on actual analysis of any topics at hand, if you'll allow."

Sounds good Brenton. Like I said, I think you're a decent kid. In fact, you have just exhibited more maturity than Merola ever has.

"I do hope you're not implying that I think gays are pedophiles (as I've stated, I myself am gay) - I know that's not what you're saying but I just need to point this out because it could be read that way."

Nope, just that you need to be a little more careful about who you listen to.

You don't have to listen to me. I don't want you to take anything I post as gospel.

I just want you to think about it and if you agree that's just fine too.

@ Brenton: "As I noted, I'm honestly on the brink of leaving and starting an organisation ( hopefully with Edward, since he's hinted this to me ) that seriously pursues methods of improving human society while maintaining intellectual integrity. It'd be great to see something HONEST go viral for once."

I agree completely.

@ Matt: "I wish you nothing but the best of luck doing so. And if you keep it free of woo, you just might find me supporting it."

I agree completely. If you can guarantee 100% that what you want to do has nothing whatsoever to do with conspiracy theories, I'd be very interested in seeing what you come up with. I do a lot of charity work (in the real world, not online) and am always interested in using online forums to leverage and increase "boots on the ground" type efforts for helping people.