Skeptic Project

So what exactly is the purpose of the websites you linked? I can't really access them from my Ipod so i cant visit them all right now, the ones i can access seem alittle confusing. Are they sites debunking claims made by consiracy theorists such as with the letter to George Washington? Is it a site that tries to show what the ideals of the real original bavarian illuminati were? And that the claims made by religious folk and conspiracy theorists aren't valid?

Newbie,

These sites debunk Illuminati conspiracy theories inasmuch as they are serious, academic treatments of the actual, historical Bavarian Illuminati (1776 to roughly 1820, when we lost their last traces). Many of their goals -- separation of powers, abolition of the European monarchies, etc. -- are things we take for granted today. Melanson's site is actually www.bavarian-illuminati.info (sorry for the typo).

Snyder's exchange with Washington is often misquoted by conspiracy theorists to make it look like Washington knew about the Illuminati presence in the states. The actual quote is "It was not my intention to doubt that, the Doctrines of the Illuminati, and principles of Jacobinism had not spread in the United States. On the contrary, no one is more truly satisfied of this fact than I am." Conspiracies often delete the phrase "the Doctrines of." As you can see, that's a huge difference.

George Snyder was an anti-Masonic agitator who presented himself as a minister to Washington and sent him a copy of John Robison's "Proofs of a Conspiracy." This book, written around the time Barruel published his "Code of the Illuminati," pretty much lays the foundation of modern day conspiracy theories. Both books were written in the bloody aftermath of the Robespierre's "Reign of Terror" during the French Revolution.

Since then the by now defunct Illuminati have been blamed for pretty much every major political and economic disaster. The story of the historic Illuminati is a fascinating and -- in the English speaking world -- wide open field of study.

Quote from Newbie

oh, ok gotcha

Of course, things get interesting when conspiracy theorists claim that the Bavarian Illuminati were not the "real" Illuminati when they are confronted with historic facts. I've seen them do that more than once. They'll also claim that agendas can change over time. That's when I point out the difference between what's "possible" and what has been established as documented fact -- and that's where the discussion usually ends.

I just had a discussion with someone on facebook, not about the Illuminati, but the alleged "giant" skeletons.

I showed him the snopes article, then explained to him that "giants" are a biophysical impossibility. His reply was, "But can all these photos be faked?"

The moral of the story is that when someone absolutely refuses to accept reality, because Oz is so much more interesting than Kansas, there's really no stopping them.

Quote from Joe

Newbie
You see ,Dr_Benedict_Zaroff create me if I am wrong, the Illuminati was founded by people influenced by the ideas of the Enlightenment. Most of the people who pushed the CT where Reactionaries i.e. Monarchs, Clergy, Noblemen; basically people in power who feared them as a threat to the old order. Then when you had the French Revolution happened the Illuminati became the boogey man of the Reactionary element. Meanwhile in the early United States the Illuminati was picked up by Anti-Jefferson Preachers, located mainly in New England, who thought through Thomas Jefferson the Illuminati was going to bring radical Republicanism, as seen in France, to the U.S. and also destroy Christianity.
Edit: Also, Dr_Benedict_Zaroff, is Terry Melanson also a CTer?

You're pretty much spot on, Joe. Terry is not a CTer, but he does present some otherwise pretty dry material in a pretty sensationalist manner.

Tried pretty hard to read this thread and care.

Couldn't do either one.

The fact is: no one can persuade you to stop believing in the Illuminati through rational dialogue because belief in something as ridiculous as the Illuminati is inherently irrational.

You have to choose to not believe in the Illuminati. No amount of outside persuasion will make that happen.

Indeed, the Illuminati did exist once, but the modern day conspiracy theories really are ridiculous, unfortunately, so many people fall for it. I don't believe in this crap anymore anyway, I just hope that lasts now

Quote from Agent Matt

"You could say that trying to talk sense to a true believer is pretty futile. But I've seen a few of them "wake up," to borrow one of their phrases. "

Did they wake up because of your persuasion or did they wake up because they chose to?

There is no new information on this subject. There are no recent breakthroughs to expose belief in the Illuminati as retarded. The information is there, as it has been for years, if people want it. If they don't, any persuasion is a waste of time and effort.

I do not accept that someone can be persuaded into abandoning beliefs. They must choose to.

YEAH BUT MATT A RAPPER RAPPED IT IN HIS SONG ABOUT BEING WITH THE ILLUMINATI YOU CAN'T DENY THE FATC THAT RAPPER HAVE CREDIBILITY IN THE ACADEMIC WORLD CAUSE THEY RAP AND THEREFORE THAT'S GOT CRED IN THE STREETS IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.

YOU BETTER WATCH IT MATT IF YOU DISRESPECT ILLUMINATI RAPPERS THEY GOING TO COME AFTER YOU ILLUMINATI STYLE BRO! SEE RAPPERS DO HAVE CRED ABOUT BEING ILLUMINATI AND i BELIEVE IT SO I'M SCARED AND YOU SHOULD BE TOO. GIVE ME REASON WHY I SHOULDN'T;T AND YES THEY GOT ACADEMIC CRED CAUSE THERE RAPPER SO PLEASE DON'T SAY THEY DON'T HAVE CRED TO MAKE ME LOOK STUPID CAUSE I'M NOT. RAPPERS GOTZ THE CREDS WHERE I COME FROM BRO!

Educate yourself, Newbie. It's the best way to convince yourself that it's all BS.

The best thing to do is read and read and learn and learn. I find the more people open up to learn more and educate themselves, the more things seam to fall into place and make sense.

Always remember fear is a powerful emotion, and most of the time it's used by people who are trying to sell you something, or sell you ON something.

like when I see what CT'ers consider "Illuminati symbolism" I get alittle doubtful or scared, even though I know these theories are stupid and that the symbolism is probably there for many other reasons. Or when I see people like Vigilant Citizen or Donald Marshall (you can google him), I get doubtful, though I try to remember that there are delusional people in the world.

In the end all the "Illuminati symbolism" boils down to the eye and pyramid on the Great Seal of America, which is neither Illuminati nor Masonic, but was created from standard references on heraldry like Cesare Ripa's "Iconologia or Moral Emblems," which you can find online at:

http://emblem.libraries.psu.edu/Ripa/Images/ripatoc.htm

The problem is that CTers are so much in love with their own mythology that the actual scientific or historical facts don't really interest them.

Just take a look at that famous 9/11 picture of the metal support beams that were cut at an angle. CTer use it at evidence for planted demo charges, but that pic was taken during the clean up, when they were cutting those beams at an angle.

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