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Forum - TZM Orientation Guide: has anyone debunked it?

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Agent MattPosted: Jul 01, 2010 - 11:53
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Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

If not, I'll do it.

#1 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
sorryPosted: Jul 01, 2010 - 11:56
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Level: 12
CS Original

Even if someone has, your's will be funnier.

#2 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
anticultistPosted: Jul 01, 2010 - 12:06
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Brainwashing you for money

Level: 15
CS Original

I havent seen anyones online debunking of it yet, thats why they throw it around like its a heavyweight champ.

Get her done.

#3 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Jul 01, 2010 - 12:24
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Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

I'll start on it tonight.

#4 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
CyborgJesusPosted: Jul 01, 2010 - 12:54
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Level: 6
CS Original

It fails from the beginning. A few things I would agree with, though.

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Sil the ShillPosted: Jul 01, 2010 - 14:18
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Level: 9
CS Original

Is it something that can be debunked? I mean, I would love to see it... but I always thought it was similar to the people who say "Ron Paul can't be debunked!", I haven't read it but I guess there should be plenty of claims that can be debunked and some things that are just ideas.

#6 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Jul 01, 2010 - 14:40
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Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

Well I shall call it a "skeptical analysis" then.

#7 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
EdPosted: Jul 01, 2010 - 14:55
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Level: 10
CS Original

The problem I remember with the Orientation Guide wasn't so much what it was based on, but rather what it concluded IE. The Venus Project idealistic fantasies. IE. I think it makes very many accurate observations about various things but then takes giant leaps in order to get where it wants to take you.

#8 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Jul 01, 2010 - 15:13
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Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

"I think it makes very many accurate observations about various things but then takes giant leaps in order to get where it wants to take you."

I'm very skeptical about these very many accurate observations.

But we shall see.

#9 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Jul 01, 2010 - 17:09
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Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

Here we go.

Into the abyss...

#10 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Jul 01, 2010 - 17:19
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Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

This fucking sucks. I do not believe the average Zeitgeister has read this crap.

#11 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
sorryPosted: Jul 01, 2010 - 17:20
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Level: 12
CS Original

Coming from someone who's read most of it, I agree. It's full of assumptions, lies, and misconceptions that are all written as fact.

#12 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Jul 01, 2010 - 17:28
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Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

I honestly don't know how to go about doing this. Suggestions?

#13 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
sorryPosted: Jul 01, 2010 - 17:31
(0)
 

Level: 12
CS Original

I don't know. All you can do is find evidence that refutes the claims.

#14 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Jul 01, 2010 - 17:35
(0)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

The problem is that there is just so much...

It is quite easy to take statements out, such as:

"This study reveals how suffering and aggression can be the results of environmental depravity, and
how powerful the environment is in shaping our behavior and values."

Later, it says:

"As the Merva & Fowles study presented previously clearly shows, socially offensive behavior is directly related to socioeconomic circumstances."

At one point, he says that the study shows that environment can be simply "powerful." Then later he claims that same study showed that socially offensive behavior is directly related to socioeconomic circumstances. Well, it doesn't say that and whoever wrote this stupid thing flat out said so two pages before.

"Some people who consider the tenets of a Resource-Based Economy think that the system would be

difficult due to something called “Human Nature”. The argument is that humans are inherently

competitive, greedy and blindly self-serving, implying that no matter how technically good things are
in society, there will always be ‘corrupt’ people who want to abuse others and seek dominance.
"

That isn't the argument at all. The argument is that humans are inherently influenced by the combination of genes that created them. This is nothing more than a misanthropic straw man.

#15 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
sorryPosted: Jul 01, 2010 - 17:37
(0)
 

Level: 12
CS Original

Socioeconomic circumstances can be considered part of the environment.

#16 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Jul 01, 2010 - 17:38
(0)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

Yes, but on one page he says it "can be powerful."

Then two pages later he says the study showed it was "directly related."

How does he go from "can be powerful" to "directly related"?

#17 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
oreolvrsPosted: Jul 01, 2010 - 17:41
(0)
 

Level: 1
CS Original

"The problem is that there is just so much..." - Then maybe you should do it as a group project together

#18 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
sorryPosted: Jul 01, 2010 - 17:42
(0)
 

Level: 12
CS Original

The environment can be powerfully influential (as in, not directly correlated), yet a subsection of it - socioeconomic status - is directly correlated. He doesn't say environment is directly correlated because he doesn't think all aspects of it are.

What you can say is that he's contradicting his blank slate stance by saying the environment has a "powerful" effect. Granted, the word "powerful" is subjective. But why doesn't he just say the environment has total control over behavior?

You can also analyze the study that apparently shows a direct correlation.

#19 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Sil the ShillPosted: Jul 01, 2010 - 17:42
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Level: 9
CS Original

Perhaps you could do it in a different way than say, the way Edward analyzes most of the movies. The TZM Orientation guide is a reference, right? So maybe you can write your analysis of it as a reference to. Like lists of inconsistencies, like what you posted above and other things like that. Or separate it into things that can be debunked like "Studies show X amount of Y something something Z" if reality is far off from what Peter is saying, and then also have list of ideas that can't be debunked but are certainly open to a 'skeptical analysis'.

#20 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Jul 01, 2010 - 17:43
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Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

That is a good idea. Edward could we get some sort of Wiki page that everyone can edit going on this?

#21 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Jul 01, 2010 - 17:44
(0)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

"He doesn't say environment is directly correlated because he doesn't think all aspects of it are."

But he says:

"The source of any so-called crime is really society itself. There is no such thing as a “criminal”."

#22 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
sorryPosted: Jul 01, 2010 - 17:45
(0)
 

Level: 12
CS Original

So, there's a contradiction to point out. This whole blank slate theory can be criticized as being a major theme of the guide.

#23 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Jul 01, 2010 - 17:45
(0)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

Man, theres like 83 pages of contradictions. ;_;

#24 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
sorryPosted: Jul 01, 2010 - 17:49
(0)
 

Level: 12
CS Original

That's why I said I only read "most" of it; and ONLY so I could help people cheat on that quiz.

#25 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Jul 01, 2010 - 17:50
(0)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

" Therefore, since it is the
environment that influences our behavior itself, if we find patterns of behavior in our society that are
socially offensive and abusive, we should look to the environment to figure out why those behaviors
manifest to begin with.
"

I notice an awful lot of socially offensive and abusive behavior amongst the ultra wealthy. Does this mean that their environment of abundance caused it?

#26 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Sil the ShillPosted: Jul 01, 2010 - 17:51
(0)
 

Level: 9
CS Original

It's not just environment though, and I guess a good way to debunk that claim is to find sources of studies that show that certain genetic traits make people predisposed to certain personality traits.

#27 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
sorryPosted: Jul 01, 2010 - 17:52
(0)
 

Level: 12
CS Original

Matt, that's because the wealthy have a nasty coke (scarce) habit.

#28 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Jul 01, 2010 - 17:53
(0)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

But not all wealthy people do coke!

I am so mad at myself for saying I would do this.

#29 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
sorryPosted: Jul 01, 2010 - 17:55
(0)
 

Level: 12
CS Original

Nah, they're aaaallll doing it. It's proof of blank slate.

#30 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]