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Forum - Response to bkyle's analysis of "10 Canned ZM Responses" topic.

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MuertosPosted: Jul 16, 2010 - 12:08
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I felt this deserved a separate topic because the discussion is pretty in-depth. Plus, that other ZM topic is getting junked up by Matt and Nanos arguing, so it's worth rebooting it as a separate topic.

Bkyle responded (here: http://conspiracyscience.com/forums/topic/article-the-zeitgeist-movement/page/27) to the "Top 10 Canned Responses of the Zeitgeist Movement" blog (here: http://conspiracyscience.com/blog/2010/06/19/zeitgeisters-greatest-hits-confronting-canned-responses-to-criticisms-of-the-zeitgeist-movement/). Bkyle, thanks for being willing to have a reasoned discussion about this instead of just shouting these canned responses louder, as some other ZM members have done when we question them.

I'm not going to argue that the movies aren't the movement. The movies started the movement and the association cannot be lost for the reasons you make clear.

Thank you for admitting this. It's refreshing to see a ZM who doesn't immediately contort into intellectual backflips when confronted with the primacy of the movies to the ZM.

My comment is, "So what?" Peter, along with a lot of us, were a little naive a few years ago about conspiracy theories. He's a young man, and passionate, and human, so he makes mistakes, just like the rest of us. He was/is a musician and video producer, not a politician or sociologist who has the experience to choose his words carefully. Knowing what he knows now, I bet he would love to go back in time and make the movies differently.

"So what?" Well, a lot.

First off, there is no evidence that Merola regrets ANY of the positions he took in Zeitgeist I. In fact he has doubled down on them, and as I believe Ed pointed out in the other topic, he's putting out a 300-page (!) "study guide" with the release of the remastered Zeitgeist, presumably to defend Archarya S and his 9/11 Truther sources from attack by people like us.

In this topic (http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=232&id=120738) Merola repeatedly reaffirms his belief in conspiracy theories, especially 9/11 conspiracy theories. He states:

Obviously, I am in full support, or I would not have made Part 2 of the Z1....The Movement is much larger than 9/11 truth at this point. Exposing such a thing has value for it will continue to erode confidence in the system. However, the debate is very annoying in the mainstream and every time we see a clear discovery, we quickly see well organized propaganda based rubukes that confuse the issue. (such as the hilarious
NIST study of WTC7 )...I can do nothing but sigh when I hear people try to make up excuses about how WT7 fell "from fire". The NIST report was a circus of bullshit made through reverse black box modeling to fit a predefined conclusion. In the end, sadly, logical reasoning does nothing to inform most of the public at this
day and age.

It doesn't sound to me like Merola regrets a thing he said in Z1, do you?

If one believes the Movement has good intentions, one can likely forgive some mis-steps early in the Movement's development. When the original Zeitgeist movie was made, there was no plan for a movement. When Addendum was made, Peter thought it might be worth seeing how much interest was out there for changing the world. To be critical of the Movement in general because of Peter's early mistakes is short-sighted.

First, I don't believe that the ZM has entirely good intentions. You want to make the world a better place, and yes, that is a good intention. However, you want to do it by having computers in charge, which is a dehumanizing, grotesque and offensive notion in my opinion. However, that's beside the point.

As I indicated, I seriously doubt Merola believes that he made any "early mistakes" with Zeitgeist I. He's fully behind it and from his thoughts I reproduced here, it seems that if he had it all to do over again he'd do it exactly the same way.

Please define conspiracy theorists, and provide details why this group you're labelling are bad, which is what I assume you're implying.

If you mean that people who are open-minded and willing to give all ideas/theories fair consideration, regardless if some people think those ideas are not worth considering deserve such a label, then you're entitled to your opinion and you can name-call such people as you like. We won't mind.

By "conspiracy theorists," I mean people, like Peter Merola, who believe that major events such as 9/11, the Kennedy assassination, etc. did not happen the way that all the evidence indicates that they happened, but instead believe they were caused by some other nefarious group acting out of evil motives, and their responsibility for these events is hidden from public view. These views are not legitimate because they are irrational and totally against all the evidence. Peter Merola is a conspiracy theorist--he's a 9/11 Truther for instance. Jaccque Fresco is a conspiracy theorist--he believes in the Illuminati. These people hold irrational beliefs and encourage others to share those irrational beliefs.

It has nothing to do with "giving all ideas/theories fair consideration." Conspiracy theorists love to use this argument to show how unfair they think the label "conspiracy theorist" is, but it's just a semantic game. You know what I mean by "conspiracy theorist." Playing games with the definition is disingenuous.

It has been my experience that most Zeitgeisters are conspiracy theorists. A disproportionate number of them (disproportionate to the public at large) are 9/11 Truthers, which is not surprising considering they joined the movement because of the 9/11 conspiracy allegations in Zeitgeist I and Zeitgeist Addendum. Need evidence that most Zeitgeist members are conspiracy theorists? Look at the number of conspiracy related topics in the "MISCELLANEOUS" section of the forum. They're droning on about David Icke, about the BP spill being staged, global warming is a hoax, etc. Not to mention that people who refute these theories, such as Ed, are banned and expelled fro the movement.

What does this mean [the ZM is a conspiracy movement]? Are you implying that the main goal of the Movement is to spread conspiracy theories? Well, you're entitled to your own opinion, but it isn't true. The main goal of the Movement is to raise awareness of problems with the world, and to propose positive change, like that suggested with the Venus Project.

I'm not implying, but I'm stating clearly that I believe a major goal of the ZM is to spread conspiracy theories. This goal is very carefully unacknowledged in the official ZM materials (such as the Orientation Guide) so Merola can proclaim, to people like us who dislike conspiracy theories, that his movement has nothing to do with them. In truth, conspiracy theories underlie everything the ZM does. The whole reason the Venus Project is touted at the end of Zeitgeist Addendum is as a "cure" for all these terrible conspiracies. Merola has stated this clearly--he got into the Venus Project as a way to ameliorate all the evil he thinks is being done by all these conspiracies.

Furthermore, the promotion of conspiracy theories is the only thing the ZM is likely to achieve. Building a "resource based economy" is a pipedream, no more valid than any other utopian idea that's come and gone in the last 100+ years. Also, very few ZM members seem to want to do anything to bring it about, and certainly they have no plans to do so. Therefore, what will the ZM accomplish except spreading conspiracy theories and conspiracy thinking? They won't accomplish anything else, so they can succeed at this, at least, and have already done so. This is the problem with the ZM.

People are free to do whatever they want. Perhaps you're right that some ZM supporters hand them out. I've been to some ZM public events to raise awareness and I've never seen Zeitgeist I DVD's handed out. I've only seen Addendum DVD's and the Orientation DVD's. I would argue that supporters of the Movement promoting Zeitgeist I is not as widespread as you're implying.

Does it matter? ZM defenders assume that handing out Zeitgeist: Addendum is acceptable because supposedly it's not tainted by conspiracy theories. That's not true, because it is. Z:A posits the exact same theories as the first movie, but it just spends less time on them. Every time a ZM member hands out an Addendum DVD, he or she is promoting conspiracy theories.

Perhaps it comes do to the classic conundrum, "Does the 'ends' justify the 'means'"? In this case, I say it does. For a movement to succeed, it needs supporters. How those supporters are initially made aware of the movement does not matter to me, if the movement's goal is for the betterment of everyone and for the good of the planet.

I can't accept this. The ends do NOT justify the means, and in my opinion it is horrifying and ominous that you believe it does.

If lying to people about conspiracy theories is acceptable to you to get them to join the ZM, what else are you willing to excuse? Character assassination? Would it be OK if Peter Merola put a section in his upcoming film full of false accusations about his critics, making up stuff to discredit them? That's OK in your view, isn't it, because it furthers the goal of the ZM?

What about theft? Murder? Genocide? I've seen very ominous posts on the ZM forums about how the use of force would be justifiable to bring about a RBE, or to trigger the societal collapse that most ZM seem to want in order to get their project off the ground. Does this bother you? If it doesn't, I am frightened of you. Honestly frightened, because this shit isn't right.

If you believe the Movement's goal is good, but the movies influence means to you that it cannot succeed, then I suggest you keep your opinions to yourself. Why try to sabotage a Movement if you agree with their goal?

But I don't believe the Movement's goal is good. The only goal the ZM is likely to achieve is spreading conspiracy theories, and that's a very bad thing that I fight actively against. As for the goal the ZM is unlikely to achieve--remaking the world in Jacque Fresco's image, with computers ruling the world--that is also a bad goal, but I'm not too concerned about that because it will never happen. Therefore, I focus on what the ZM actually IS doing, not the pie-in-the-sky goals they will never achieve. What the ZM actually is doing is wrong, in my opinion, and I will do what I can to hinder them from achieving that goal, by exposing the misrepresentations in the films and the idiocy of the conspiracy theories promoted by ZM members.

If you believe that the movies have tainted everyone in the Movement and the goal of the Movement is truly not for the good of the planet, but instead is secretly trying to make things worse or at least keep them as bad as they already are, then I suggest you look in the mirror next time you're trying to define a conspiracy theorist.

So I'm a conspiracy theorist, then? Hmm, that sounds like #7 on the list of canned responses!

#1 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
NanosPosted: Jul 16, 2010 - 12:51
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> you want to do it by having computers in charge, which is a dehumanizing, grotesque and offensive notion in my opinion.

Its not so bad, after all, traffic lights aren't that bad are they..

(Note, I'm more a fan of roundabouts myself..)

> Jaccque Fresco is a conspiracy theorist--he believes in the Illuminati.

The Illuminati is just another name for a bunch of rich folk deciding whats the best way to run the world. (Incidently sometimes done on more efficient forums than this. (Why just the other day one of them insulted me by calling me rich pretending to be poor, as otherwise how could I afford to pay the subsription to their little playground..)

> These people hold irrational beliefs and encourage others to share those irrational beliefs.

But yes, generally the vast majority of beliefs they hold are incorrect.

I wouldn't necessarly call them irrational, as they do often employ logic, its just their ability to understand is not always good enough to see that they don't either have enough facts, or understand how to employ logic and facts to come to a sensible conclusion.

> It has been my experience that most Zeitgeisters are conspiracy theorists.

Same. (Which is no suprise considering how they came to the TZM forum in the first place via PJ's films.)

On the old TVP forum, there was rather a lack of people like that, and more practical minded folk who wanted to build things..

My hope was that any efforts to bring in more new blood would increase that number, rather than fill the place with mostly idiots.

> the promotion of conspiracy theories is the only thing the ZM is likely to achieve.

Generally agreed.

> very few ZM members seem to want to do anything to bring it about, and certainly they have no plans to do so.

And often, if they do talk about it, they get thrown off..

> Every time a ZM member hands out an Addendum DVD, he or she is promoting conspiracy theories.

This is why I never handed out any such DVD's as there was never any suitable material to put on it that didn't make them look foolish.

Ideally it should look something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0SK_Bto4Ro

> What the ZM actually is doing is wrong, in my opinion

Generally agreed there.

#2 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Sil the ShillPosted: Jul 16, 2010 - 13:26
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"The Illuminati is just another name for a bunch of rich folk deciding whats the best way to run the world. (Incidently sometimes done on more efficient forums than this. (Why just the other day one of them insulted me by calling me rich pretending to be poor, as otherwise how could I afford to pay the subsription to their little playground..)"

Are you saying you pay to access the official Illuminati (of conspiracy theory fame) forums?

#3 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
CyborgJesusPosted: Jul 16, 2010 - 13:45
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Level: 6
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If yes, I just discovered my next business idea.

#4 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
oreolvrsPosted: Jul 16, 2010 - 13:48
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Level: 1
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".No one says TVP's ideas are unique. Fresco repeatedly states that TVP will take the best understandings we have today and put them into use" - The fact they continually proport it as the lifes work of Jacque Fresco and barely ever give credit to Marcuse etc. shows that thats a flat out lie EDIT - Check the zeitgeist movement orientation video for an example of this and Peters interviews on radio

"We have fantastic technologies sitting on the sidelines that should be in common use. Why are they not? Often they are not profitable to produce, or, more commonly, the institutions in the current system are making too much money on the old technologies so they have no incentives to change." - I agree partially.I personally would like to get my local government from setting up Recirculating Aquaculture Systems,algea photobioreacters as a food and energy source and help people become more self sufficient in terms of energy and food but unfortunately i really dont see that happening that much.

#5 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Sil the ShillPosted: Jul 16, 2010 - 14:00
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Level: 9
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"If yes, I just discovered my next business idea. "

Charging CT'ers tons of cash to interview members of the Illuminati. As long as we confirm all their beliefs to be true, they'll keep paying us. I think that Benjamin Fulford guy has videos of people he claims to be members of the Illuminati... but what he says goes against what most CT's believe, so they call him shills. Just carry their party line and we'll carry the cash all the way to the bank.

#6 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
MuertosPosted: Jul 16, 2010 - 14:05
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Paid Disinformation Blogger

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If possible I'd like to keep this thread on the topic of TZM's standard arguments and my evaluation of them, as opposed to a substantive critique of the Venus Project (except to the extent those topics overlap).

#7 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
anticultistPosted: Jul 16, 2010 - 14:21
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Brainwashing you for money

Level: 15
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The main goal of the Movement is to raise awareness of problems with the world, and to propose positive change, like that suggested with the Venus Project.

This would be sincere if what they were raising awareness of was actually true, but what they are basing their claims off is lies and naieve statements.
For instance: bankers run the world, the monetary system is to blame for all the worlds problems, all resources should be the heritage of all the people, the world should be borderless, the elite are a shadowy group hiding behind the scenes running the show, 911 was an inside job, your government lie about everything and do nothing valuable or efficient.

The list goes on and on, and everything above is fabricated and unverified.
Providing a few examples of things that are bad does not make the applecart worth tipping over, and redesigning a new one thats ran by computers and self delivers to your doorstep free of charge is ridiculous.

Firstly resources are owned by nations already, they will not give them up freely, nations are different , climates and cultures are different. therefore the implementation of no borders and everyone living in the same way is not theoretically plausible.
There are covert groups that do shady things, but this does not mean there are people wanting to run the world and depopulate it and turn everyone into worker drones for their benefit.
There are dodgy government agencies and people but this does not make the entire membership corrupt, the system and rules could do with a rehash and adjustment sure, and sack all the corrupt members.

The monetary system is not proven to be the only problem we need to worry about, it is not proven to be the root cause of everything, and to want to eradicate it for the RBE where everything is free is not going to be possible. As stated before nations own resources and wont give them away freely to another country, they are already being abused and invaded for them, think about it for a while.
911 was not an inside job it goes against all evidence to state it was on the measly evidence of a few youtube videos and random sound bites.

In short TVP/TZM are full of shit and are doing nothing of value for society other than spread manufactured lies and are corrupting the view of many ordinary people who dont know any better.

#8 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Jul 16, 2010 - 14:41
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HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
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"What does this mean [the ZM is a conspiracy movement]? Are you implying that the main goal of the Movement is to spread conspiracy theories?"

I would like to speak on this point, quoted from bkyle by Muertos. I have recently written a short critique of Resource Based Economy as supported by the Venus Project at my blog where I deal with this precise issue (found in the second part here: http://falknerslegend.tumblr.com/post/782994996/rejection-of-the-state-the-paradox-of-anarchy-and). What I want to immediately point out is that the unachievable goal of the Zeitgeist Movement as it intersects with the Venus Project is dependent upon a conspiracy point of view.

The Venus Project's officially stated goal contains the following:

"We must emphasize that this approach to global governance has nothing whatever in common with the present aims of an elite to form a world government with themselves and large corporations at the helm, and the vast majority of the world’s population subservient to them. Our vision of globalization empowers each and every person on the planet to be the best they can be, not to live in abject subjugation to a corporate governing body"

One need only think back briefly to the overarching claim of the Zeitgeist film: a global banking elite are plotting a world take over in the New World Order. This is an undeniable conclusion drawn from the Zeitgeist film itself, and so it must be utterly obvious that those who see this film are explicitly exposed to this idea. Now we need to follow the logical steps of anyone motivated by Zeitgeist and Z2 to see exactly how embedded the RBE is with the Conspiracy Theories supported by Merola.

The Venus Project has positioned itself as a diametric opposite to the "present aims of an elite to form a world government with themselves and large corporations at the helm." There is absolutely no distance between the conclusions of the Zeitgeist and Zeitgeist Addendum films and the premise of the Venus Project. The Venus Project is overtly working to resist this "new world government" which is precisely the same New World Order supported by the Zeitgeist films. Thus, support of the Venus Project in its entirety is dependent upon accepting this diametric opposition. If you support the Venus Project, and its goal is to resist the New World Order, then you must believe that the New World Order exists. If you do not agree with this fundamental goal of the Venus Project, your support still goes towards a system designed around this opposition.

The Venus Project is thus validated not only by those who explicitly believe in this Conspiracy Theory and support the Venus Project, but also by those who are not careful enough to be conscious of the goals of the Venus Project. It is analogous as giving money to PETA because you disagree with medical testing on animals but ignore the fact that PETA has funded eco-terrorism. While you are supporting a positive change in your own position, you are also directly supporting a negative aspect.

It should then be immediately clear that the Venus Project, by its own, official statements is based upon faulty Conspiracy Theories. Thus, the nexus between the Venus Project and the Zeitgeist Movement is this commonly shared error. Those who try to ignore this aspect are still fully supporting the spread of Conspiracy Theories in the movement itself.

#9 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
NanosPosted: Jul 16, 2010 - 17:28
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> Are you saying you pay to access the official Illuminati
> (of conspiracy theory fame) forums?

Yes.

Part of my plan involves using my new forum software to house their forum content for them. (Also a possibility of a government contract too.)

It may amuse you that TVP/TZM is not mentioned in a single post on their forums, its that important!

#10 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Sil the ShillPosted: Jul 16, 2010 - 17:34
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Level: 9
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I can't tell if you're serious or not, or if you actually believe in an "Illuminati" the way it is defined modernly.

#11 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
CyborgJesusPosted: Jul 16, 2010 - 17:50
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Level: 6
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I'd be interested in a link.

#12 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
MuertosPosted: Jul 16, 2010 - 17:54
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Paid Disinformation Blogger

Level: 14
CS Original

Nanos, please tell me you're kidding.

#13 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
NanosPosted: Jul 16, 2010 - 18:09
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Level: 0
CS Original

Sadly I cannot tell you where to find it at this time.

#14 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
SkyPosted: Jul 16, 2010 - 18:15
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Level: 3
CS Original

Why not?

#15 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
NanosPosted: Jul 16, 2010 - 18:26
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Level: 0
CS Original

Commerical reasons.

(Gee, now I sound like Fresco!)

#16 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
NanosPosted: Jul 16, 2010 - 18:28
(0)
 

Level: 0
CS Original

I will though, its just the company I'm competing with, I want them to go out of business, so I don't want to help them at all by mentioning them. (Bit like how some view TZM..)

Its not too hard to dig up who I'm talking about if you use google..

But I'll leave that exersize up to the reader for now :-)

I wouldn't worry about it though, soon your be able to chat to them yourself!

#17 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
EdPosted: Jul 16, 2010 - 18:55
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Level: 10
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@Bkyle:

Muertos pretty much said everything but...

People are free to do whatever they want. Perhaps you're right that some ZM supporters hand them out. I've been to some ZM public events to raise awareness and I've never seen Zeitgeist I DVD's handed out. I've only seen Addendum DVD's and the Orientation DVD's. I would argue that supporters of the Movement promoting Zeitgeist I is not as widespread as you're implying.

1. Why does the Venus project say that people SHOULD be setting up SCREENINGS of Zeitgeist 1?
http://www.thevenusproject.com/get-involved/what-you-can-do</p>

2. Zeitgeist Addendum has still got conspiracy theories in them, it still says 911 was in an inside job and that Al Qaeda doesnt exist (and then uses a falsely attributed quote to prove it)

3. Addendum is still an "addendum" to Zeitgeist 1. Go find the official trailer, he refers to it as "Part IV". As in, Zeitgeist was 3 parts, Addendum is Part 4.

4. As Muertos says, Peter is about to release a new version of Zeitgeist 1 promoting all the same nonsense the first one did, and allegedly he hired a team of researches to make his source guide (LOL).

5. Peter has said that Zeitgeist 1 is good because it is the "core generator of interest to this day" for the Movement.

He takes these conspiracy theories very seriously and he is just pretending that it has nothing to do with the movement while also promoting it with the Movement and hoping everyone buys that excuse.

In the same way as he claims he isnt a leader and just hopes everyone buys it. Yes, peter isnt a leader even though he created the ZGM, created the official website, created an official radio address, makes policy decisions, his word is final and he decides who is going to be considered an official member and who isn't.Peter is a leader by every definition but for some reason many Zeitgeisters claim he isnt a leader just because he claims he isnt. Is there are wonder why the ZGM are accused of acting like a cult? (He even named the different local groups "chapters" for gods sake.) Many in the ZGM do blatantly act a certain way and then tell you they arent straight after doing it and you're just left dumbfounded that someone can deny they just did what they just did.

#18 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
EdPosted: Jul 16, 2010 - 19:09
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Level: 10
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"We must emphasize that this approach to global governance has nothing whatever in common with the present aims of an elite to form a world government with themselves and large corporations at the helm, and the vast majority of the world’s population subservient to them.

http://www.thevenusproject.com/a-new-social-design/resource-based-economy</p>

OMG I've been trying to find that quote for ages! I KNEW I saw that!

Last night I went on web archive and looked at old versions of their site and couldnt find it, I didnt think to look there!

No wonder Fresco likes Zeitgeist

#19 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Jul 16, 2010 - 23:17
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HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
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Glad I could help out, Ed.

#20 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Sil the ShillPosted: Jul 17, 2010 - 14:39
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Level: 9
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"4. As Muertos says, Peter is about to release a new version of Zeitgeist 1 promoting all the same nonsense the first one did, and allegedly he hired a team of researches to make his source guide (LOL). "

I feel so neglected! I brought that up and Muertos said Ed did, and Ed said Muertos did. AM I JUST ANOTHER AVATAR TO YOU PEOPLE

#21 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
anticultistPosted: Jul 17, 2010 - 14:51
(0)
 

Brainwashing you for money

Level: 15
CS Original

We are all Eds here

#22 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Sil the ShillPosted: Jul 17, 2010 - 14:55
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Level: 9
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Oh, right. Sorry anti-Ed.

#23 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
anticultistPosted: Jul 17, 2010 - 15:02
(0)
 

Brainwashing you for money

Level: 15
CS Original
#24 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Jul 17, 2010 - 16:53
(0)
 

HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
CS Original

I see what you did there.

#25 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
bkylePosted: Jul 19, 2010 - 01:41
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Level: 0
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Sorry for the delayed response...

"By 'conspiracy theorists,' I mean people, like Peter Merola, who believe that major events such as 9/11, the Kennedy assassination, etc. did not happen the way that all the evidence indicates that they happened, but instead believe they were caused by some other nefarious group acting out of evil motives, and their responsibility for these events is hidden from public view. These views are not legitimate because they are irrational and totally against all the evidence." -Muertos.

All evidence? Aren't there many people out there hanging on to what they believe is evidence contrary to the official stories? For example, Charlie Sheen, a very public figure, believes he knows of plenty of evidence supporting that the official 9/11 story is wrong. He's challenged any public news person to bring him on to debate these "facts", and no one has called him on it, to my knowledge.

"It has nothing to do with "giving all ideas/theories fair consideration." Conspiracy theorists love to use this argument to show how unfair they think the label 'conspiracy theorist' is, but it's just a semantic game." -Muertos.

Sure it does. Everyone should make up their own mind independently, and not just blindly follow stories, whether official or un-official. In fact, true patriots should question the stories their leaders give as much as possible. It keeps the leaders honest.

"Furthermore, the promotion of conspiracy theories is the only thing the ZM is likely to achieve. Building a "resource based economy" is a pipedream, no more valid than any other utopian idea that's come and gone in the last 100+ years." -Muertos.

Calling a view of a better future a 'pipedream' is an easy way to write it off. If you believe it will never happen, then you won't even try. If you believe anything can happen, then it opens up possibilities.

Check out the post I created in the TZM forum called "It'll NEVER work":
http://conspiracyscience.com/forums/topic/itll-never-work</p>

Because we have better technology and understanding and communication than any time in the last 100+ years, then this attempt is fundamentally different than any previous attempt. Yes, earlier movements each had better technology and communication than any time in history before them, but they don't have what we have today.

More importantly, there is a common feeling that humanity is destroying the Earth with its careless actions. The technologies of the early 20th century don't come close to the scale of destruction we commit on a daily basis.

"Also, very few ZM members seem to want to do anything to bring it about, and certainly they have no plans to do so. Therefore, what will the ZM accomplish except spreading conspiracy theories and conspiracy thinking?" -Muertos.

No true. All supporters of TZM want to do something, but now is the time for talking and spreading word. Later when the Movmement is a sufficient size, the next steps will begin. There currently are no plans after this current phase, but there will be. The Movement can't skip to phase 2 before finishing phase 1. Trying to predict what phase 2 will include are impossible and would be distracting.

"If lying to people about conspiracy theories is acceptable to you to get them to join the ZM, what else are you willing to excuse? Character assassination? Would it be OK if Peter Merola put a section in his upcoming film full of false accusations about his critics, making up stuff to discredit them? That's OK in your view, isn't it, because it furthers the goal of the ZM? What about theft? Murder? Genocide? I've seen very ominous posts on the ZM forums about how the use of force would be justifiable to bring about a RBE, or to trigger the societal collapse that most ZM seem to want in order to get their project off the ground. Does this bother you? If it doesn't, I am frightened of you. Honestly frightened, because this shit isn't right." -Muertos.

Wow. What other words would you like to try putting in my mouth?

First, discussions aren't lies if one believes what they're saying. If PJ believes everything he put in his Zeitgeist movies, then they aren't lies to him. Based on your beliefs, you may consider them lies. If all evidence available doesn't make the issues clear to everyone, then each person is entitled to their opinion.

Of course I don't believe "all means" justify the "ends". No sane person would support the actions you listed. Would such actions bother me? Of course they would. That goes without saying. Such actions would destroy any movement. None of the actions you listed or OK for anyone at any time. I take offence that you would suggest I could support such things.

#26 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
bkylePosted: Jul 19, 2010 - 01:42
(0)
 

Level: 0
CS Original

Muertos, I like how you indent quotes. How does one do that on these forums?

#27 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
bkylePosted: Jul 19, 2010 - 01:44
(0)
 

Level: 0
CS Original

Sorry it took so long to get these next set of comments out. Some days are busier than others...

2. “Any ZM member can come up with their own content. The movies are simply Peter’s content.”

"The purpose of this argument, similar to the previous one, is to minimize the relevance of Peter Merola’s personal beliefs on conspiracy theories to the ZM as a whole in an attempt to decouple the ZM from the Zeitgeist films and pretend that the ZM does not have, as a strong but unacknowledged goal, to promote conspiracy theories and conspiracy thinking." -Muertos.

Yes and no. If you're trying to spin the Zeitgeist Movement as a group of people who's goal is to promote conspiracy theories, then yes, this is a common response so the discussion doesn't go down that rat-hole.

Most supporters of the Zeitgeist Movement do not think of themselves as promoters of conspiracy theories. This is not to say they are not human and on occasion discuss unproven ideas. Everyone does it. One of your co-workers gets laid off, and the other staff starts discussing what "really" happened to get them fired. Was their a relationship going on? Were they trying to take too much power? Did some co-workers get together and talk badly about the person to get the kicked out the door? It's natural for people to wonder and imagine what "the truth" really is behind stories they are exposed to.

The 'no' part is your accusation that a goal of the Zeitgeist Movement is to promote conspiracy theories and thinking. There is no supporter that would agree with that statement because it is not true. This is your opinion. You're entitled to it, but repeating it enough times does not make it true. Please give evidence to support this claim. Ie: Provide a link to where any supporter of the Zeitgeist Movement says this is a goal. If it truly was, I would not support the Movement. If such a goal was made clear to supporters of TZM, I believe they would leave in droves as quickly as possible.

On second thought, I'll go so far as to say I believe people supporting TZM have such strong belief that change is needed that they would kick out anyone trying to be a leader who's words or action expose that their main goal for TZM was to spread conspiracy theories. That would include PJ himself. That's the beauty of a leaderless movement. The Movement makes decisions as a group through the individual actions of their supporters. When they like an idea, they act on it. When they don't, they won't. It would hurt the Movement to lose PJ, but there's enough support now that I don't think it would be the end.

"This argument is extremely misleading." -Muertos.

So is the bringing up an implication that the goal of the Zeitgeist Movement is to promote conspiracy theories and thinking. This response tries to cut short spending time on this argument.

"It ignores the reality of who is in charge of the ZM and what the name Zeitgeist really means." -Muertos.

No one is in charge of The Zeitgeist Movement. Peter has said that if he disappeared, the Movement should go one with out him. Fresco is certainly not in charge. At 92, he can hardly carry on a conversation.

Supporters create their own local chapter to spread word of The Movement and its goals of helping people come to understand the benefits of a RBE, how making a transition to sustainably managing worldwide resources is not just a good idea but is essential to out future, and that we don't have to put up with the nonsense and tragedy we are exposed to in our normal every day lives.

What nonsense? Working jobs we hate just so we can make a meagre living. Working so hard that life passes us by and we're always so exhausted. Not spending enough time with family, friends and our communities. Not trusting our neighbours because the media teaches us to fear them.

What tragedy? The blind-eye we're forced to have to the homeless and poor in our cities. The young forced into work instead of school. The sick and injured whose lives become ruined when their money runs out. Our young people who go to fight wars that don't matter, and return home in caskets.

"...it stretches credibility to believe that any member of the ZM can make a movie with any content and use the Zeitgeist title" - Meurtos.

Of course anyone can make their own Zeitgeist Movement videos. Anyone can do whatever they want. Many, many people have done this already. Go to YouTube and search for "Zeitgeist" or "Zeitgeist Movement". Their are hundreds of movies with Zeitgeist in the title, both for and against the Movement, with more being added every week. Ie:

Charlie Chaplin: Zeitgeist Remix
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSMuZ5DmG5I

Zeitgeist or Jesus - What is truth?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6u9yMTPSyNQ

Better yet, search for "Zeitgeist III" or "Zeitgeist 3":

Zeitgeist III 2009 (NEW) PT1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRl8yVtTIoA

"Merola would almost certainly take some action to get me to take the title Zeitgeist off my movie that disagrees with him. There is no way in hell that my own personal “content,” at odds with the official ideology of the ZM, would be allowed to stand under that name." -Muertos.

People make new videos all the time refuting Zeitgeist and the Movement. It's impossible for PJ to take action against everyone using the Zeitgeist name. Besides, it doesn't even matter. The good stuff floats to the top and the crap sinks to the bottom and gets lost. Go ahead and create your own Zeitgeist movie. I think you have nothing to fear.

"This argument is very silly, as these examples demonstrate." -Muertos.

I agree. You're the one who brought it up.

#28 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
anticultistPosted: Jul 19, 2010 - 06:10
(0)
 

Brainwashing you for money

Level: 15
CS Original

Most supporters of the Zeitgeist Movement do not think of themselves as promoters of conspiracy theories.

Thats not the point because a conspiracy theory movie recruited them and they use that very same recruitment technique themselves by handing out said movies to people. They promote CT's whether willingly or ignorantly via these movies and until they remove the CT's from the movie and stop handing it out they will always be promoters of CT's.

Your example after this point is unimportant when you consider the reality of the above statement.

The 'no' part is your accusation that a goal of the Zeitgeist Movement is to promote conspiracy theories and thinking. There is no supporter that would agree with that statement because it is not true. This is your opinion.

You just used the very same opinionated nonsense , you said NO member would agree with that statement, well I can just go on over to the forum and find multiple CT threads and members who would happily say they promote and believe these strange concepts.
Also allow me to say this, whether you believe you are a promoter or claim not to be is not important if you are handing out DVD's or digital copies of conspiracy theory movies. You see by doing this you are a CT.

Here is a clear cut example to put it in perspective:
Lets say there was a racist and nazi section in zeitgeist, and you handed it out willingly without questioning it, I would be quite right to accuse you of being a nazi racist, and if after this you continued to ignore that point and hand it out and promote it I would be right in saying it. Whether you are racist is irrelevant because you promote racism and a movie about it.

On second thought, I'll go so far as to say I believe people supporting TZM have such strong belief that change is needed that they would kick out anyone trying to be a leader who's words or action expose that their main goal for TZM was to spread conspiracy theories. That would include PJ himself.

Then its about time you confromnted him on the forum about it and rally the troops to kick him out because he IS a conspiracy theorist, he is self admitted everywhere online in radio shows, interviews, posts on your forum so why are you pretending he isnt ? There are numerous examples in threads on this forum taken from his own words showing his clear cut beliefs in CT's. In fact Zeitgeist 1 and 2 are filled with CT's and he still to this day bases everything about his movement upon those core beliefs. he is even doing a new version of zeitgeist 1 with a 300 page booklet to back up his claims that 911 was an inside job, Acarya S pseudo intellectual claims are fact and that his claims about the monetary system/fed are correct...he is continuing on in his CT beliefs even more now than before.

That's the beauty of a leaderless movement. The Movement makes decisions as a group through the individual actions of their supporters. When they like an idea, they act on it. When they don't, they won't.

But since you dont have a leaderless movement you have no clue what the beauty or problems of one really are, because while you say you can make decisions and act upon them thats just fanciful claims. None of you make any decisions about anything in the movement. Do you for instance decide what you are going to promote in the zeitgeist z days? do you decide you are going to show alex jones movies on zday instead ? do you decide when Jacque will build his city ? do you decide what jacque talks about in his lectures to the world? do you decide where the money thats earnt is used? do you decide who stays in the forums? no all you probably decide is what thread to post on the forum and which ones to talk in.

No one is in charge of The Zeitgeist Movement. Peter has said that if he disappeared, the Movement should go one with out him. Fresco is certainly not in charge. At 92, he can hardly carry on a conversation.

Nonsense, you are just repeating canned responses and rhetoric, this is Bullshit.
They both own the damn movement outright, they decide everything that occurs and what you all talk about regarding it and therefore promote.

Supporters create their own local chapter to spread word of The Movement and its goals

Yes and the promoting of CT's and Peter Josephs latest key words and pseudo intellectual rants are high on the list, as well as Jacques inane repetitive ramblings which are unfounded in any scientific basis. Those are what you promote, you see you follow the leaders, you dont all decide to promote Charitable causes and talk about eco villages that are not Venus Project related because thats not part of the agenda, the leaders want you to promote their personal beliefs and agenda.

Of course anyone can make their own Zeitgeist Movement videos. Anyone can do whatever they want....People make new videos all the time refuting Zeitgeist and the Movement. It's impossible for PJ to take action against everyone using the Zeitgeist name. Besides, it doesn't even matter.

This is ignoring the points Muertos was making which was that if he used the zeitgeist name and became well known and started making an impact upon the zeitgeist movements public image, Peter would be very unhappy because it was not promoting what he wanted, therefore the leader would step in and claim his copyright and stop Muertos from damaging his movements ideology. Even though you claim there is no leader and you can make your own content and direction up, which you cant if you are to be a member of their group.

#29 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
MuertosPosted: Jul 20, 2010 - 22:05
(0)
 

Paid Disinformation Blogger

Level: 14
CS Original

Response to bkyle, yes mine is delayed too. :)

All evidence? Aren't there many people out there hanging on to what they believe is evidence contrary to the official stories? For example, Charlie Sheen, a very public figure, believes he knows of plenty of evidence supporting that the official 9/11 story is wrong. He's challenged any public news person to bring him on to debate these "facts", and no one has called him on it, to my knowledge.

Yes, all evidence.

There are people, such as Peter Merola, hanging on to what they believe is evidence contrary to the official stories. They are wrong to do so, because that "evidence" is faulty, and one has to ignore logic and reason in order to believe it. Charlie Sheen is a perfect example of a misguided person who believes this crap. Peter Merola is another.

When it comes to events like 9/11 or the JFK assassination, where what happened can be proven with empirical evidence, belief in a conspiracy is not acceptable within the bounds of logic or reason. It's like denying gravity. You can't do it and still be rational. Belief in conspiracy theories is irrational, and should be discouraged. That's what we're doing here on ConspSci, and why we don't like the Zeitgeist Movement.

Sure it does. Everyone should make up their own mind independently, and not just blindly follow stories, whether official or un-official. In fact, true patriots should question the stories their leaders give as much as possible. It keeps the leaders honest.

Conspiracy theorists use this argument--"question everything"--as license to reject evidence. Yes, be open minded. But don't be so open minded that your brain falls out. You must accept the conclusion to which evidence leads. Failure to do so, whether innocently or willfully, is irrational.

Calling a view of a better future a 'pipedream' is an easy way to write it off. If you believe it will never happen, then you won't even try. If you believe anything can happen, then it opens up possibilities. Check out the post I created in the TZM forum called "It'll NEVER work":
http://conspiracyscience.com/forums/topic/itll-never-work

As I said in that topic, your examples are totally inapposite. Because somebody 130 years ago didn't think a light bulb or an airplane was possible says absolutely nothing about whether this bizarre social utopian movement of yours has any realistic chance of success.

No true. All supporters of TZM want to do something, but now is the time for talking and spreading word. Later when the Movmement is a sufficient size, the next steps will begin. There currently are no plans after this current phase, but there will be. The Movement can't skip to phase 2 before finishing phase 1. Trying to predict what phase 2 will include are impossible and would be distracting.

Ludicrous argument. You're admitting that the ZM hasn't got jack shit for a plan, which does not endear the rest of the world to accepting that your movement supposedly knows what it's talking about.

I'm going to build a house. I'll start by pouring the foundation. Don't distract me by asking me to predict what I'll do when I'm done pouring the foundation!

First, discussions aren't lies if one believes what they're saying. If PJ believes everything he put in his Zeitgeist movies, then they aren't lies to him. Based on your beliefs, you may consider them lies. If all evidence available doesn't make the issues clear to everyone, then each person is entitled to their opinion.

This is another conspiracy theorist argument, "everyone is entitled to their opinion." Yes, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But not everyone is entitled to their own facts.

Peter Merola is either ignorant of the facts of 9/11, Federal Reserve and the history of religion, or else he is willfully denying them. If it's the former, then he is not trustworthy as the spokesman for a utopian movement because it's obvious that his command of facts is extremely poor. If it's the latter, then he's a liar, and he is also not trustworthy as the spokesman for a utopian movement.

Either way, Merola is a charlatan. Whether he's a charlatan innocently or deliberately is anyone's guess, but he's still pushing falsehoods, and falsehoods should be corrected.

"The Iraq War was a bad idea" is an opinion.
"The Federal Reserve should be abolished" is an opinion.
"We should have a resource based economy" is an opinion.

"The government blew up the WTC towers" is a purported statement of fact. It is not an opinion. It is wrong, and should be corrected.

"Jesus never lived" is a purported statement of fact. It is not an opinion. It is wrong, and should be corrected.

"Evil bankers rule the world" is a purported statement of fact. It is not an opinion. It is wrong, and should be corrected.

"The movies aren't the movement" is a purported statement of fact. It is not an opinion. It is wrong, and should be corrected.

See the difference?

Most supporters of the Zeitgeist Movement do not think of themselves as promoters of conspiracy theories.

It is irrelevant what ZM members think of themselves as. Most members of cults believe themselves to be the most enlightened people in the world. That doesn't make it so.

The 'no' part is your accusation that a goal of the Zeitgeist Movement is to promote conspiracy theories and thinking. There is no supporter that would agree with that statement because it is not true. This is your opinion.

Sure it isn't true? How many ZM members who are conspiracy theorists talk in terms of spreading "the truth"? Don't they want to spread what they believe is "the truth"? As Un-Ed-Ucated/FalknersLegend pointed out, the Venus Project is predicated on a conspiracist view of the world, which is factually unsupportable. By promoting the Venus Project, ZM members are, by definition, promoting conspiracy theories.

And as I pointed out above, it's irrelevant what ZM think they are doing; its what they actually ARE doing that's the point. Whether they would agree that they're a conspiracy movement or not, they ARE spreading conspiracy theories and conspiracy ideology.

No one is in charge of The Zeitgeist Movement. Peter has said that if he disappeared, the Movement should go one with out him.

That means absolutely nothing. Communism continued when Stalin died; that didn't mean that Stalin wasn't the leader of the Communist Party in the USSR.

If Merola is not the leader, who is the person deciding what is the ideological orthodoxy of the ZM? If he and people appointed by him aren't making decisions as to who is a "supporter" of your movement and who is an "enemy" of it, how do you explain this topic?

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=60&id=154760

People make new videos all the time refuting Zeitgeist and the Movement. It's impossible for PJ to take action against everyone using the Zeitgeist name. Besides, it doesn't even matter. The good stuff floats to the top and the crap sinks to the bottom and gets lost.

I think what you really mean is, Peter Merola takes no notice until and unless the opposing viewpoints begin to have some influene and cachet--and then he acts on them.

Look at his attitude toward this site. He thinks this site is a threat to him and to the ZM. If Edward Winston happened to be a member of the ZM when he created this site, what would have happened to him? Merola would definitely have taken action.

Look at some of the things, in the ZM forum topic I linked to above, that people have been banned for.

"Deliberate association of the movement or the community with conspiratorial and theoretical organizations to distract from or to reduce the actual message of the movement."

"Posting of anti-zeitgeist videos."

"Repeated attacks against the Zeitgeist Movement and the Venus Project."

"Constantly making threads to try and cast doubt on the motivations of the Zeitgeist Movement and the Venus Project."

"Repeatedly interrupting Zeitgeist meetings to promote his own as he put it "anti-authoritarian" websites."

"Referring to Jacque Fresco, Roxanne Meadows etc as "The ZM Aristocracy" and suggesting that the Venus Project is not relevant to the Zeitgeist Movement. (He says that saying that Zeitgeist movement is the activist arm of the Venus Project is "rhetoric"). Pushing his agenda of the use of psychedelic drug use."

These statements are proof positive that people who go against what Merola and his lieutenants frame as the orthodoxy of the movement are disciplined and eventually cast out of it. PROOF POSITIVE, bkyle. I don't see how you get around this.

I stand by everything I wrote in my blog.

#30 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]

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