Skeptic Project

3. “Okay, what’s your program for solving the world’s problems?”

"This argument is a shameless attempt at agenda control." -Meurtos.

I don't know why you need to say "shameless", but I agree it is changing the conversation. Supporters of TZM don't want to talk about conspiracy theories. They don't bring up any when talking about TZM to people who are unfamiliar with the Movement. From what I've personally seen, they don't talk about conspiracy theories when they get together in person. PJ doesn't talk about conspiracy theories in his radio blogcast shows.

Sure, there are some people who love to talk about conspiracy theories and do so on TZM forums. There's probably at least one person at every major office/workplace that loves to talk about them too.

"It tries to place the ZM critic in a no-win scenario: if you can’t come up with a program on the spot to solve the world’s problems, the ZM member will respond along the lines of, “Well, since I have the Venus Project and you admit you have no better idea, why not try the Venus Project?”" -Meurtos.

I agree, I can see perhaps some people do this. This is an easy win when debating with most people.

However, I believe it is a fair question, just not for an immediate response. Take your time. A day, a week, a month, or more.

Also, the question shouldn't be personal. Take out the "your program" part. Perhaps rephrase it, like, "Is there a better proposal out there for fixing the World's problems?" The "your" part makes the question too much like an attack, and the attack feels inferior.

What I like about the question is it gets people thinking about possible solutions. I believe there is too much apathy in the attitudes of today. Too often people comment things like, "Oh well, that's life," or "I'm just one person, what am I going to do about life's problems." Instead of thinking about how we need to change, they submit to a view that life can't change. With attitudes like that, we'd still be living in a monarchy where slavery was common. (I don't mean the so-called "slavery" of today with low wages and high-costs of living keeping people in jobs they despise.)

As soon as one starts thinking of possible solutions, opportunities become visible. We need people thinking of what's possible.

"And if you reject the legitimacy of the question, the ZM member will attempt to claim the moral high ground by asking why you want to talk about that ooky conspiracy stuff when you should be debating the efficacy of various proposals to save the world." -Meurtos.

I have to agree with this "more high ground" response. I don't want to debate conspiracy theories. That's not what I believe TZM is about. I know you see it differently. From the _real_ supporters of TZM I've seen in person, they want to help the world change for the better. Not only do they "want" to help, they feel the world must change. Debating conspiracy theories doesn't help with that goal.

"By accepting debate on these terms you’ve implicitly limited the universe of permissible options to two, and only two, alternatives" -Meurtos.

Perhaps some people, like your vacuum cleaner salesman, perhaps they demand an immediate alternative solution. I don't. Take your time and come up with a good solution. The important thing is that you're actively thinking about it, which is what Fresco has spent the majority of his life doing.

"This question should not be tolerated in a debate regarding the ZM, at least not when you're talking about conspiracy theories promoted and supported by the ZM." -Meurtos.

Okay, I can agree with that statement. I'm probably speaking for many supporters of TZM when I say that I don't want to talk about the idea that the only thing TZM is capable of is spreading conspiracy theories. Therefore you can have that conversation with yourself. When you're done agreeing with yourself and want to start discussing solutions to fix the World, I'm ready to talk.

When you're done agreeing with yourself and want to start discussing solutions to fix the World, I'm ready to talk

Off you trot then, because youre not getting a conversation like that from me. A conversation on how to fix the world, pffffft arm chair politics and sociologists. You guys couldnt fix a dripping tap, I would not even trust your group to fix its own dinner, failures.

You ZM guys don't understand the world's problems well enough to propose any good solutions - that's the problem.

For many problems, no one understands them well enough. To think you do, based on various conspiracy theories no less, is arrogant and naive.

4. “I’m agnostic regarding conspiracy theories” or, related, “What happened on 9/11 isn’t relevant.”

"The objective is still to change the subject from conspiracy theories to the Venus Project" -Muertos.

I agree. Why spend time talking about conspiracy theories when one believes they are a distraction from the real goal of TZM?

"...the fact that the Zeitgeist movies’ and many ZM members’ views regarding conspiracies, particularly 9/11 conspiracies, are directly relevant to how seriously we (the non-ZM rest of the world) should take the ZM" -Muertos.

This is your opinion. If you get stuck on arguing conspiracy theories and not seeing the value and necessity of changing the world, then who has the problem?

"Conspiracy theories regarding 9/11 are factually unsupportable. 9/11 conspiracy theories that are easily disproven by only a few minutes’ research. What happened on 9/11 can, and has been, proven beyond doubt with factual, empirical evidence." -Muertos.

Forgive me for my ignorance, but I don't know this is true. I've seen a lot of information from all sides, each trying to sell their angle. How am I supposed to know what is true? I think of myself as agnostic on the issue of 9/11. Apparently I shouldn't be because, according to you, I just haven't seen the right information. Please point me where I should look to see all of the 9/11 theories are disproved with only a few minutes of research.

"Why, therefore, should anyone trust a movie that lies to them about 9/11 to propose a viable solution to the world’s problems in the form of the Venus Project?" -Muertos.

For arguments sake, let's pretend all of the 9/11 conspiracy theories are not true. PJ made Z1 3 years ago. What is obvious to you now was probably not so obvious to people three years ago. I'm certain PJ is not so certain now as he was then about the validity of his beliefs back then, but (and this is the important part) you anti-TZM people would tear him apart if he admitted he was wrong. In the echo chamber that is the WWW, there would be endless cries of, "How can we trust someone's opinion about saving the planet when he himself admits he was so wrong about 9/11?!?" Why these two topics are related is only via the association made in the Zeitgeist movies. Why can one not be correct on the second point (TVP is a good idea) and wrong on the first point (9/11 was an inside job)?

Let's get un-stuck from 9/11 here and widen the discussion. Part 3 of Z1 has plenty of conspiracy theories of countries using some events they facilitated to manipulate their people using propaganda. Are you saying they are all un-true? Is there not an example in history of leaders of countries lying to their people to further some internal cause? I say there have been, and the point of the Zeitgeist movies conspiracy theories is to keep people on their toes and paying attention. Even if 9/11 was precisely as the government-fed media reported it, I argue that we always need to be wary of our leaders, for the good of our countrymen. Can it be disputed that power corrupts? It's only the degree of corruption we argue about.

"they must try to sweep the conspiracy theory questions under the rug or minimize their importance in order to remain credible in the debate" -Muertos.

It depends what is being debated. If the debate is all about how TZM has been spreading conspiracy theories because of some early associations with 9/11 theories in Z1, then yes, you are right that the ZM supporter is trying to avoid this conversation. If the debate is about why humanity must change their ways to save the planet and how we should do that, then absolutely we should move past associations with 9/11 conspiracy theories and stay focussed on the Movement's real goal.

"if the ZM ever did achieve the 50 million members they say they want to get, these hair-splitting arguments are far too attenuated to translate successfully to any forum broad or persuasive enough to attract that sort of mainstream cachet--people would just assume that Zeitgeisters are conspiracy theorists, which in fact most of them are." -Muertos.

I know you disagree, Muertos, but I say, "Who cares?" TVP is a solution I like the sound of. The more people that support it, the better. What if some of those supporters are Christians or Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist? Does that matter? What if some of those supporters believe in life on other planets? What if some of those supporters keep a Japanese "Maneki Neko" toy cat at home for good luck? If you can completely scratch off a whole cause because of the beliefs of some portion of its supporters, its going to be very difficult for you to support any change.

Could it be that the supporters of TZM have it right, despite their unrelated beliefs? Could it be that The Venus Project is not perfect, but is exponentially better than the path humanity is on today?

"You ZM guys don't understand the world's problems well enough to propose any good solutions - that's the problem." -domokato.

Wow, you CS guys like to generalize a lot. How can you say supporters of TZM don't understand the world well enough? How many TZM supporters do you know personally enough to speak with such conviction about their understanding?

Lots. I was on their forums for a good year or so before they banned me, so I got to have quite a few long, drawn out conversations with a lot of them. But even if I didn't, I could reach that same conclusion because, as I said, TZM claims it understands and can fix the world's problems based on conspiracy theories and bad science, which is stupid.

If there is at least one person with good enough understanding, according to whatever measuring stick you use, is that sufficient? Or is there a minimum percentage that need this understanding before you're okay with it? Or do you just feel I don't know enough, and I'm important enough that the whole Movement will fail because of my lack of understanding?

I'm saying TZM has an ideology that most of its members adhere to, with only slight variations (too much variation and you're banned), and that the ideology is flawed.

> listening to a panel of academically respectable people

I would hope that half the panel is made up of industrialists and not just academics, who can often at times not really understand the real world costs and tend towards solutions that are not affordable!

> Realistically, you and I can probably live out our lives and die in the relative
> comfort we're accustomed too.

Thats nice the two of you are sorted, for folk like me there is no happy ending unless we make it.. (Nor has there been for me for the last 36 years..)