Skeptic Project

@Ed

You need to calm down man.

"@VTV:

"I have also seen "debunking" that amounts to little more then name calling. "

Please show me one example of pure name calling in anything I have said.

Also, please explain what name calling I engaged in in the thread that I was banned in. I pointed out clear examples of quote-mines and dishonesty in Zeitgeist and was prepared to give many more but no one was interested, then I was banned."

I didn't say you were namecalling anyone. Meurtos suggested that supposedly Peter has been totally debunked on everything and I said that I have seen a lot of "debunking" that amounts to little more then namecalling. I didn't say "ed was namecalling" at any point during my post.

I also didn't say you were banned for namecalling. I explained why you were banned.

@VTV:

"I didn't say you were namecalling anyone." -VTV

As the longest running MAIN "debunker" of 911 conspiracies on the ZGM how then can you use that as an excuse if you accept that I didn't name call anyone? What false claims did I make?

I don't think you have ever debated me on 911, if you want to take this to another thread I can always prove to you that 911 Truth is one big fat lie. I have made the challenge that so long as no critical questions are ignored and as long as points are accepted to be wrong when they are I can prove to THEIR OWN SATISFACTION that people like Steven Jones, Richard Gage, Michael Ruppert, David Ray Griffin are liars and/or incompetents and not to be trusted or associated with.

Unfortunately it will also make you completely embarrassed to ever want to promote Zeitgeist 1 ever again.

PS:

You have not addressed what i said about your points about my ban. Your claims are completely untrue and Peter is demonstrably a liar and hypocrite just on this issue alone.

@Ed

You are quickly lowering in quality here in your responses. I still maintain you need to take a step back and calm down before you continue.

"Or I will make you look more and more ridiculous."

See Ed, this dissapoints me. You started out good and now your just threatening me with humiliation if I don't comply with you. That's really sad. But you would be wasting your time Ed. I don't really care what you do to make me look "ridiculous" in your mind as it is of no consequence to me.

"Its not that I didn't LIKE it, I already knew everything you said. it completely missed the entire point that was very clear.

You basically just regurgitated everything from the standard Zeitgeist handbook, as it were. That won't work with me, I already know it. Some questions you will be asked by people don't have a stock answer so you will actually have to try and figure out what they are actually asking you."

I don't agree. I gave you the correct answers. I am sorry if that is not good enough for you but you are clearly getting a bit too emotional now.

"No I'm explaining to you the reality and consequences of your position..."

There was no reality in your statement Ed. You created a fictional scenerio that would never take place and then asked me to address it.

"You have said many times that charitable work now is pointless, that's why you criticised anti-cultists contribution to the water charity. You act like this is a useless and irrelevant endeavour, YOU and the ZGM want to provide water for all(!), right? This is the same reason why Fresco doesn't use renewable energies, they don't think it will help spread the word so what's the point, right?"

If it is a solution it will end the problem. Not perpetuate it. Also, there is a project coming together to get the Venus Project on renewable energies.

"So the issue is that you may not be saying that people should STOP their charity work but if they agree with the rhetoric of the ZGM they will see that their charity work is irrelevant and doesn't really help and their time would be better spent working towards the Venus Project solution.

That means that the more charity workers support the Movement to the level you want and believe all that same stuff then people will die, people will go hungry, get sick, the environment will suffer.

These are the CONSEQUENCES of what you believe and what you promote and something you clearly haven't thought through."

Ed, I think we are getting to the point that you are so upset that we are not really exchanging information. Your kind of arguing with yourself and your not really listening to my responses all the while claiming that I am not listening to you. If for some reason every activist on the planet stopped doing the charity work they were doing I think you over-estimate the effect this would have. If the charity work continued I think you also over-estimate what effect it is having.

We do care about all of these things. The problem is the dam needs to be re-built entirely. Not patched.

"How about the conspiracy to convince us to go to war in Iraq?"

False equivalence logic fail. We know exactly why the war in Iraq happened. No speculation or quote mining required.

@VTV

Please go back a page, I responded to all that crap about my banning.

You have been ignoring my points and that is why I'm getting more and more pissed off with you.

If you want to be a good spokesman for the Movement you really need to stop this.

@Meurtos

"Totally untrue. The Gulf of Tonkin affair was actually 2 separate incidents, one of which was verified as an actual attack by North Vietnamese forces; the other was a misinterpretation of events by a Navy commander, who communicated this to Washington that same night. There was no conspiracy involved and it certainly wasn't a "false flag."

I don't agree. And I have seen testimony by people on the ships to back that up. I am not going to argue with you about it but I do not agree.

"Not false-flag terrorism."

They spread false propaganda about the Iranian president in an effort to cause violence and unrest so that they could replace that president with one who would give us their oil. They ordered someone in the CIA to do this. I disagree with your definition.

"Misinterpretation of events. Not false-flag terrorism, or even close to it."

Again I don't agree.

"Dreadful policy choice and abuse of power, no question, but neither a conspiracy nor a false-flag event."

The claim that there were weapons of mass destruction was completely false. It was an effort to terrorize the American people into backing a war based on lies. There was in fact a Conspiracy in the neo-conservative movement to accomplish just that. If you want conclusive evidence about this watch the film "No End In Sight" as it gets into it with interviews with people who were actually there including people in the administration at the time.

"There's a difference between the issue of someone's credibility and an "ad hominem" attack. Merola's veracity and his track record of interpreting broad societal themes and historical processes--which is very poor--is directly relevant to whether the Venus Project is the right thing to improve society and move history in another direction. If a financial advisor tells you to invest in pork bellies because they're going up, why isn't that advisor's record of successful prediction of commodities markets extremely relevant to your decision whether or not to follow his advice? If it turns out he's batting zero, how is it an "ad hominem" to point this out?"

None of the stuff you claim he was "debunked" or to have a "proven bad track record" with has anything to do with the Resource Based Economy model at all. The concept itself is not in any way altered by Peter Joseph's involvement whatsoever. It is the same concept it was before Zeitgeist Addendum. It is the same concept now. This is why talking about 911, or whatever other conspiracy stuff you think you have debunked him on is not relevant and a distraction from the point. I can be a bad weatherman and be bad at predicting the weather and still support a viable cause.

If Peter Joseph said 911 was an inside job and also said 2+2=4 that does not suddenly make 2+2=4 an incorrect statement.

"None of the stuff you claim he was "debunked" or to have a "proven bad track record" with has anything to do with the Resource Based Economy model at all"

Actually, I think it does. It demonstrates that people who throw the scientific method away do not have credible scientific solutions for humanity's problems.

Jimbo said that. He's smart.

"Wrong about everything? Really?"

Yes, he is. And I refuse to be drawn down a rhetorical rabbit hole for you to dodge legitimate criticism.

"This is why I don't concentrate on this stuff too much and work instead on solutions."

Then why in the world would I believe that you have a scientific solution for humanity's problems when you show no respect whatsoever to the scientific method and nothing but disdain for its institutions?

What you preach is dogma, not solutions.

>> They spread false propaganda about the Iranian president in an effort to cause violence and unrest so that they could replace that president with one who would give us their oil. They ordered someone in the CIA to do this. I disagree with your definition.

How is black propaganda the same thing as false-flag? No wonder CTs define any event ever as false-flag... oh wait no any event America or Britain is involved with is a false-flag. If the Islamic Republic of Iran puts out black propaganda, well then it's just propaganda, it's not false-flag when it's used by Hezbollah or anything.

@VTV:

"See Ed, this dissapoints me. You started out good and now your just threatening me with humiliation if I don't comply with you. That's really sad. But you would be wasting your time Ed. I don't really care what you do to make me look "ridiculous" in your mind as it is of no consequence to me. " - VTV

If the only way you and Peter can argue this and other topics is by lying about people and making things up or by ignoring peoples points, then to point that out will make you and him look ridiculous.

I try my best to point out every stupid piece of crappy reasoning I see. It is in your interest to just discuss this like a reasonable person. Reasonable misunderstandings are fine, ask me if you don't understand, but you are doing this intentionally.

"don't agree. I gave you the correct answers. I am sorry if that is not good enough for you but you are clearly getting a bit too emotional now. " - VTV

Interesting, how can they be the "correct answers" to a question I never asked? And you accuse me of strawmen?

I didn't ask what the ZGM opinion of charity was, how to feed the poor or provide clean drinking water or anything like that, I made a specific point and asked a specific question that was completely ignored. Lets see if this improves...

"You created a fictional scenerio that would never take place and then asked me to address it. " - VTV

And now I've explained what I meant by that in more detail, lets see if you address it...

"If it is a solution it will end the problem. Not perpetuate it. Also, there is a project coming together to get the Venus Project on renewable energies. " VTV

Not looking good VTV, you are still missing the point... lets see if you get it as you reply to the rest of my post.

(* btw on the subject of renewable energies, the ZGM is trying to get the Venus Project on renewables? WTF takes this long? Jacque has been at this for over 50 years right? What the hell has he accomplished? And who's the lucky people that get to donate the money to get THEM on it I wonder! Why haven';t they done any work to get any money to buy it themselves? Oh yes, the models, drawings, videos and tours are far more important.)

"Ed, I think we are getting to the point that you are so upset that we are not really exchanging information. [...]

We do care about all of these things. The problem is the dam needs to be re-built entirely. Not patched. " - VTV

You have said over and over that charity is pointless and irrelevant and that time is better spent on ZGM promotion. That why you were so negative about anti-cultist's charity water aid.

Society needs to be re-built not patched, you said.

So therefore IF more and more people working for and contributing to charities join the ZGM and believe THIS same philosophy then the LESS AND LESS GETS DONE for those charities.

So that's why I asked, at what point you guys will start helping people? All the Zeitgeisters I've seen talk about the "re-built" society they want think it will be beyond their lifetimes! Thats a helleva long time to wait while more and more people stop doing charity work if you had the success you want.

"We haven't even talked about solutions yet scientifically because all anyone really seems to want to debate here is stuff that has little to nothing to do with the Venus Project itself. The Scientific method is on every page of the Venus Project."

Because you have no solutions, no structure and no credible plans. You have no scientific explanations on how to accomplish what you wish to accomplish. You have no credible explanations for the inconsistencies within the movement.

You have dogma and a belief system. Nothing more.

This is a borderline religion.

anticultist where are those images you are claiming as evidence? Is there any proof as to when the pictures were taken? Is it even relevant in the end as compared to the overall attendance over the entire planet?

I garantee you your blog will never see anyone creating worldwide events for it.

Now I am going to go actually participate in my life. Later.

I think the real problem isn't that the movement has members who are conspiracy theorists, but that the content is either being pushed directly or allowed to be pushed by its members. And I will prove this easily:

During this recent Z-day, I'm pretty sure that a number of state and international chapters were showing screenings of Zeitgeist 1 AND Zeitgeist Addendum. Zeitgeist Addendum, I might be able to give a pass since it doesn't have THAT much conspiracy theory, but Z1 does.

Why did TZM allow Zeitgeist 1 show on Z-Day when it wasn't supposed to be about conspiracy theories, but about the RBE? Even if it was just 1, that's 1 too many. Especially since the Z-day events, before being posted on the Z-day website website, undergo admin approval.

@jimbo,

Because the conspiracy movies are the movement's chief recruiting tool and since Merola has deemed such recruitment practices acceptable you will just have to deal with the cognitive dissonance and like it.

"I'm also curious on how he'll dodge the Zeitgeist 1 showings on Z-day."

Same way Christians dodge the lack of dinosaurs in the Bible. They ignore it.