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All this has happened before March.21.2010 30 48

http://web.archive.org/web/20110815012022/http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/03/21/all-this-has-happened-before/

All this has happened before and is happening again By Shane Nolan

"The environmental move ment was basically hijacked by political and social activists,who came in and very cleverly learned how to use green rhetoric and green language to cloak agendas that had more to do with anti-corporatism,anti-globalisation, anti - business and very little to with science and ecology..and that is when I left" - Patrick Moore founder and former president of Greenpeace

After finally realising my life long dream to get into college I began writing little tidbits and ideas that had formed in my head over the past year of how my main interest in life, science could be used for the betterment of mankind. This at least more noble rather than for being bastardized for the corruptible ideologies of capitalism and communism throughout the cold war era and again when history repeated itself during the first decade of our current century with the politicization of this field allowing it to be essentially hijacked by both democrats and republicans globally first with the "sexed up" Iraq WMD documents and then the global warming debacle we had .So I did research and looked into new and emerging technologies that relieve the worlds ills from poverty,environmental degradation etc.

Unfortunately as I had just enrolled in a four-year college course and my work suffered to the point that it had to be abandoned altogether. So one idle weekend I was searching for videos on Richard Dawkins (by then I had become interested in the creationism/intelligent design and evolution debate and happened across a video called "The Truth about Religion" on you tube and was amazed at what a steaming pile of shit this was as I was laughing out loud It wasn't until an idle Saturday in February of 2009 that I watched the same video again to disprove it my self that I found out it was from an internet conspiracy movie called "Zeitgeist"(which I eventually watched in full...and laughed even more) and there was another more factual(I'm stretching the word here) sequel called Addendum.

So after watching Addendum I was enamoured by the Zeitgeist Movements goal and Jacques Fresco since I agreed(and still do) with on some,but not all of the views he had to present particularly on education.Addendum was a relief that at least someone got the concept out.Due to this passion for all the concepts of the movement I had long believed in I became one of those people who used every social networking site,similarly themed videos on you tube and even yahoo answers to defend and "spread the message" of the movie(Addendum only).I was treading that thin line between calm rationality and fanaticism preparing arguments in my head with the adrenaline coursing through my veins .I introduced the idea to my brother who had his own dreams of building his business(I didn't show him any of the "material" as even I laughed at all of the designs)and he just roared at me for about an hour about it being garbage and even when I told him of the RBE Foundation (which I had joined by then) who were actually serious about this he then laughed in front of my face and called all of us idiots.

By then I had become less fanatical but it finally hit me harder than a Pan Galactic gargleblaster that we've already been here before:

Lets run down the list:

1.Wideley released and award-winning movie waking people up to a major problem in the world...check

2.Use of the same debunked graphs and data and Powerpoint presentations....check

3.Capitalising on major social or environmental catastrophe...check

4.Prophesing social/environmental doom....check

5.Reuse of human/animal suffering to reiterate the point...check

6.Unquestioneable self appointed leaders with no qualifications on what they are talking about...check

7.Jet crossing all over the world on other peoples money from luxury standard home....check

8.Using said money to also fund "their research" ...check

9.Prophet figure utilising their own company as the only solution through selling products and means of solving the problem...check

10.Same automated emails and messages about being too busy with spreading the message to answer...check

11.Anti-capitalist, anti-corporate agendas....check

12.Hollywood movie about people looking back how "primitive" current society was...check

13.Saturate the market with new and innovative ways of "spreading the message"

14.Oscar win and Nobel peace prize from global awareness campaign ...I sure hope not

The truth that most "movementarians" as I like to references The Zeitgeist Movement and all those involved are pretty much spouting the same shit the environmentalist movement have been spouting since Rachel Carson decided to carry out mass genocide in Africa and Al Gore replaced Patrick Swayze as Captain Planet. In fact most of them are pretty much from the same camps(you can move sheep from flock to flock that doesn't make any less sheep) and wont even admit the fact that they are doing the same mistakes all over again.

This is why most people and media outlets wont listen to them because they've had the same shit pushed down their throats already and not because of their "conditioning" or they are "too into the system". The reality is that people have already been bitten and are hesitant to join or even consider a group that spouts the same notions of activism and some of these "activists" are guilty of this and even brainwashing people into their cult before they consider looking at anything critically [1].

Like most fields of study there are three types of people in the world of science: scientists who are experts in their field and adhere to the stringent protocols of the peer review process and have credentials ,then you have enthusiasts people who are not experts and have no credentials but where its more of a hobby and still are aware of and respect the processes involved ,and then of course there is the bullshitter people who know nothing about anything and show total disregard for the peer review processes, usually out for a buck.

The reality is that the Zeitgeist movies were made for a specific audience ,Jacque and Roxanne have succeeded on grasping the blissful ignorance of the masses with effective teaming with a fellow bullshitter (and a good one too). Unfortunately as usual genuine and well-meaning people are getting hooked into it and this is saddening and like before to see them defending the fanatic and cultish members simply by being there and taking part like any other fanatical activist groups makes it even more depressing. Essentially this hive mind is a mish-mash of creationist and extremist environmentalist ideological nonsense drowning out any progress and reason by making them feel guilty for having a life.

Former members and those working for the RBEF voiced serious concerns about transparency ,organisation and the actual research needed for this to be done repeatedly attempted to get them sorted out and bring them to the attention of the "three stooges" as I like to call them.Roxanne and Jacques cleverly skirted around these issues in every interview they have(sound familiar) [2] ,the RBEF sorted them out (with a fraction of the members and resources at their disposal I might add )and ended up being presented with the threat of legal action and were unable to officially do anything due to pending legalisation. This is contrary to the fact that Roxanne and Jacques even stated in interviews in which they would condone the implementation of an RBE by groups other than The Venus Project [3].

Which brings me to the final point,the truth is we don't need to go through all this crap.We don't need to keep coming up with new ways of spreading the message (because like the environmentalist movement the culture it mainly operates in it has already saturated the internet)or do that all anymore because we have research centres,we don't have to make any more movies or books because there is already a wealth of work about post-scarity societies from Star Trek TNG [4] and Voyager series (every episode available on YouTube for FREE),hints in Douglas Adams [5,6] work and dealt with by virtually every science fiction author from the 60s and 70s.Even I thought up of this without ever hearing about the Technocrats and Jacques or anything to do with The Venus Project which reiterates the point that trade marking is pointless. Furthermore we don't have to seek much outside donations as if every member were to donate $100(hardly breaking the bank here) they would have more than $30 million to give existing research centres enough to get new automated technologies etc a good start. This is more than enough to get things off the ground (or keep the "Feed Peter & Roxanne fund" going for very long time).More than likely Jacques figured once he left the Technocratic movement that the idea of a society similar to his "RBE" would eventually come about naturally enough as society and technology improved.After joining up with Roxanne and later Peter he would start all this little business with ensuing legal wrangling bullshit to capitalise on this and invent some nonsense that it was not his idea(along with a plethora of documentaries with people stroking his ego raw).Simply put you have three lump heads who have no clue, they are talking purely for the sake of being credited with something that is not their idea. They simply are more concerned now with their image and ego and preventing anything actually happening and damaging any real legitimate attempts to bring this about if the concept becomes mainstream.

They are wasting peoples time and money by going from city regurgitating the same nonsense and poorly researched materials and what they are doing is cruel and irresponsible by manipulating those not given the chance to develop their critical skills to boycott and protest( Protest what has managed to elude me) and begin to slide down the slippery slope into fanaticism that led to the current state of groups such as PETA , another group headed by self-appointed leaders and has gone to the extent of supporting and defending terrorism in the form of the ALF.

Jacques , Peter and Roxanne have this nonsense that this is somehow related to the civil rights movement(just like PETA) and are yet at the same time pissing on the graves of those who died to make genuine change(still giving people the impression that there is some big bogey man out to get us - the fact that people are still handing out the same shitty first movie strengthens this).The fact that these are same views shared by many of the remaining scientists left in that faux movement and they are not wanting to listen to any of these "dissenting views" clearly shows where they are going by removing the very people who are actually needed. Without stopping this nonsense mark my word it ends up the same as every other "movement" seen so far: Celebrities and politicians joining and donating just to improve their image but again not doing anything at all , complete saturation of the media and it coming up in practically every Disney and Pixar movie .

In order for the implantation of an RBE to be successful or the concept goes mainstream the following must occur:

1)They have to accept the fact that they were never elected into place.Its practically impossible for the entire "movement" to progress with them doing annual promotional work and making all the decisions(it's also unfair)

2)They have to hold back the advertising campaign completely,as stated earlier if every member donated a mere $100.00 we could get serious funding for existing research centres.Again people hate having rhetoric shoved down their throat without evidence.

3)Any of the proposed cities are not necessary for now at all and both the film and theme park are totally unnecessary

Jacque says never give anyone the right to their own opinion and isn't in any way exempt from this he should simply say "I don't know" instead of spouting the rubbish he does (since if people want to get the same information they just have to watch the same lectures, and what the hell does he know ?) the fact that he has no credentials or respect for the scientific and academic peer review process(along with the other two) means that they simply don't have the right to do what they are doing, and also why moderates and the majority of people in the world will easily see through them once given the chance(you can replace tyranny with another form of tyranny and called it democracy but it's still tyranny).The three of them preach about the fact that politicians and corporations would be the first in line to prevent this from coming to fruition but the fact is they are the only ones that are stifling progress. This is the real tragedy of it all: the very concept that they say could very well save humanity for the time being is getting dragged through mire for the sake of the ego's of three very irresponsible and selfish people. Same shit, different name

References:

1. http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=55303891744&topic=13177 - Look at my group that i posted in the first post in this forum, it deals with exactly the same issues as the zeitgeist yet that first impression is effective in aquiring people. They go in with a more open and curious mind...not a critical mind!

2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLCKmPxtFDM - unable to answer basic questions

3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9rLpHt3bL4 - part one of that particular interview where it is stated.Also unable to answer basic questions again and trying to look smart by talking in metaphorical science majiggy language they also made up.

4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzqW0YaN2ho - Examples of a resource based economy in star trek(mistaken for communism in this video).You can as said earlier watch any episode on YouTube

5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5ITvG938Cs - Episode 2 of Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy(to be honest most of the stuff coming out the three muppets mouth during the entirety of Z-Day 2010 is equivalent to everything from 3:30 on that video.

6. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOZWYDXaQLs - Episode 2 of Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.Another but less relevant reference in the series

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Anticultist blog comments

Thanks for the post Shane. It's good to have someone else around who can see it for what it is.
michi said this on March 22, 2010 at 1:48 am | Reply

Thanks for the post Shane.
An interesting and fun read, I am glad you bothered to make this for the blog its a good addition to the exisiting posts we have made here, and I think its also a relief to see that other people have observed the ridiculous nature of their movement.
anticultist said this on March 22, 2010 at 12:31 pm | Reply

Yeah thanks I know there is a few spelling/grammer mistakes here and there but i was in the middle of alot project work for college.For the same reason I was unable to to get to Z-Day and find any of the remaining less fanatical types and fellow scientists to at least give them the other side of the story(or at least directing their energies towards more constructive action).Jacque,Roxanne and Peter should be in Dublin during August for more of their Vogon poetry so I might be able to prevent any well meaning people making a mistake of funding these freeloaders.
Shane Nolan said this on March 23, 2010 at 7:08 pm | Reply

hahaha I chuckled at those hitch hikers clips, the poetry and the videoing themselves and making their own money out of leaves etc...
People seem to like this post, its been linked on the zeitgeist facebook as well, and all the 'dissenters' dig it.
anticultist said this on March 23, 2010 at 7:30 pm | Reply

Hey anticultist I see you've had your first run in with a zeitgeister from the Emerald Isle(Xtylish) courtesy of my flirtations on my native forum.For any one from there(or indeed any where else)just stumbling from there to this article excuse my langauge on this post above(and bad grammar) just keep in mind I was inbetween three major projects for college and so my adrenaline was constantly upped on the ante during writing it so.
Shane Nolan said this on April 28, 2010 at 10:54 pm | Reply

Ah hes a fellow Irish man, oh well I will give him some slack because he lives on the same island as you and Azzy, but just this once.
anticultist said this on April 28, 2010 at 10:58 pm | Reply

This is the real tragedy of it all: the very concept that they say could very well save humanity for the time being is getting dragged through mire for the sake of the ego's of three very irresponsible and selfish people. Same shit, different name
--------
yes, well, lets get to work then and make tvp obsolete the old fashioned way.
:)
prometheuspan said this on April 29, 2010 at 3:11 am | Reply

That quote from the former President of GreenPeace is quite revealing.
Hmmm...
Pretty much everything said here is what I'm thinking now.
Great read BTW, I had the same romanticism with them being equal to the Civil Rights Movement after watching Zeitgeist: Addendum and seeing the MLK quote on their website (which is not there anymore) which has been used before by other organizations:
http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=231&id=242914#242945
From Shane:
"Without stopping this nonsense mark my word it ends up the same as every other "movement" seen so far: Celebrities and politicians joining and donating just to improve their image but again not doing anything at all, complete saturation of the media and it coming up in practically every Disney and Pixar movie."
Politician: VTV (check)
Actress: TVPChallenge (check)
It's funny that you say that because I noticed that TVP chick works or worked for NBC and comes out of nowhere as pro-TVP. You just can't make this stuff up:
Sources:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3281001
vimeo.com/user3047967
anewworldsociety.ning.com/profile/BrandyHume
twitter.com/TVPchallenge
http://www.proscoutblog.com/our-new-discoveries-here-and-there
http://www.facebook.com/TVPchallenge
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/v-radio/2010/03/16/the-venus-project-challenge-brandy-hume-interview
Then Peter Joseph makes this comment about if the Zeitgeist Movement was to be on NBC:
http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=9&id=250977#250993
From Peter Joseph:
"The films were an "inspiration" for TZM - not necessarily defining of it. I know it sounds like an absurd formality, but when one of us is on NBC and the reporter says 'so- your movement is based on those joseph films, right?' We say:
'No, the films were a inspiration- the Movement is its own entity.' "
And to add icing on the cake, I find it funny that there is or was a program on NBC called ZEITGEIST:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26852192
Forgive me, I'm off and on with TV personally.
I guess that goes back to the art of advertising:
http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/01/05/the-art-of-advertising-within-the-zeitgeist-movement
But I will admit, before Zeitgeist: Addendum, I wasn't aware of an RBE at all and didn't learn about people who talked about post-scarcity before, but looking at history and seeing where all this is coming from has become obvious and I understand the title of this blog. Reading this makes me want to go back to college.
Again, thanks for sharing Shane.
BranManFloMore said this on May 5, 2010 at 4:52 pm | Reply

to be perfectly blunt, nothing that TVP has to offer is anything more than at best the sum of Civil Engineering + Sociology + Energy Science applied to economics.
This isn't new, and its not revolutionary. They don't have one single good idea that ten other people didn't think of first.
The only difference is that they are willing to appropriate and lie more than the average movement and have no qualms about pretending to know things that they don't.
This brings us to the other side. While they repeat a lot of good ideas, they also repeat as many garbage ones, and Jaques for being a French guy seems to have stolen all of the main cultist axioms from Armageddon Theology.
There is nothing new about TVP, all they have done is bring a large collection of cutting edge ideas in to one place and then
make believe that they are the only ones to ever think of them.
Meanwhile, I actually do have original thoughts, and for this reason its important to ban me immediately.
prometheuspan said this on May 6, 2010 at 3:04 am | Reply

hello i totally agree with you for the most part. im also a zm member but im troubled with all the things they don't address. we should start our own movement shit, lol. no really though.
alicia said this on July 5, 2010 at 5:04 pm | Reply

Why not register to vote instead? You can actually make a difference that way.
NWO Agent said this on July 8, 2010 at 1:47 am | Reply

Yes try and get your local government to set up hydroponic farming on either a comunity/commercial scale or set up grants for people in your locale to set up their own means of becoming self sufficient with other technologies like I have been researching here:
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=390&t=1735&hilit=food+biochemistry
Shane Nolan said this on July 11, 2010 at 4:56 pm | Reply

It isn't hard to run for local office. There are tons of spots that are uncontested because there are never any opponents. That's how you bring about the sort of change you're wanting.
NWO Agent said this on July 12, 2010 at 4:26 pm

i don't know about starting a new movement, however, i am increasingly feeling like thats the only good way out of this.
I'd like to heal the assorted splinter groups together, but that seems unlikely.
I don't want to go egotist, but it increasingly seems the only way to get anything done.
And then I'd need people to do things i can't do like techie stuff.
This leads me back to RBEF, which is the most on the ball of the splinter groups.
It also brings up face to face to peer at the core problems and issues which none of these groups or any humans anywhere seem to be able to solve, which is generating a viable and lucid metaprocess.
I'm burned out. Way out. Way burned. Everything has been flipped around upside down.
In a sane world TZM would be using me to draft and I'd have the full attention and energy of hundreds of folks.
A more sane RBEF would actually read and respond to my posts rather than more or less allow me to operate as an internal splinter group.
Today I found that my website for the duration of the election- mytalktoday.com has been taken down- so much for all the fun i was going to have with i-told-you-sos in 2012.
Lately i find that my best friend is autocad. It doesn't argue with me or make demands that i figure out how to compensate for its insanity or stupidity or greed or fear. I draw, it looks good, i feel good. But nobody but me gets to really appreciate it.
Rambling on, I know, but how would we start a new group and make it work? from here?
prometheuspan said this on July 13, 2010 at 5:07 am | Reply

I know how you feel p man at this point As I said befor over at RBEF the one thing we could use is people from existing NPOs etc. to join our ranks .Not only do they know the ropes and how to get things organised they already have the commitment to doing the volunteer work needed without any excuses(ideal since the idea of an RBE would fit nicely into the their goals) and more importantly teach us a thing or two with regards to how to get things done.That was the problem with TVP/TZM and now RBEF,which is a shame now because now I actually have the lucidity and free time to get some work done in an area I might have some use in that isnt garbage - not great but not garbage either.To be honest p man with regards to starting up a new movement I really dont know if that would work.Ughh maybe Im just frustrated too or just rambling nonsensically on from a hard day working at college for the summer.
Shane Nolan said this on July 13, 2010 at 6:08 pm | Reply

You're nutty as a fruitcake.
NWO Agent said this on July 14, 2010 at 9:51 pm | Reply

Uggh.Im starting to realise something.Maybe working with like minded local governments as well as with NPOs/NGOs etc on a global scale really is the only solution .
"It isn't hard to run for local office. There are tons of spots that are uncontested because there are never any opponents. That's how you bring about the sort of change you're wanting."
Youre right.You are so very right.At this point it seems the only way possible.At least then you dont get caught up in the whole woo that TZM/TVP,RBOSE and then RBEF got caught up.Maybe this whole thing of changing the world for the better needs unsung heroes working in the background.Maybe we need to rethink our whole strategy here with regards to an RBE.Work closely with local governments and the other groups as I stated before informing them of our goals and research and implementing an RBE through them(in particular green tech).Perhaps thats the problem: groups that say they are going to change the world through a revolution usually end up dying out,fasding into obscurity and becoming the butt end of jokes and pop culture a victim of their own ego and desire for recognition.Perhaps the less mainstream society knows about this the better.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_revolution#Post_World_War_Two
An RBE is going to happen anyways perhaps its best we just work with research centres,thorough politics etc for a silent revolution.
"You're nutty as a fruitcake."
Perhaps I am or perhaps I just need some sleep.
Shane Nolan said this on July 17, 2010 at 10:53 pm | Reply

shane, i am holding out a hope that RBEF can pull it together.
Otherwise, I do have my own whole wiki and face book, and the more i think about it the more i can prolly do a lot more than I have so far.
This whole thing has put me face up against the whole problem in some new ways and this has got me to thinking in new directions,
and also i find myself letting go of the idea of trying to work within a group to start as much.
Increasingly, my own competence outweighs any other concern about such groups and I realize that as much as I would like to find a group worthy of my participation and on track- there isn't one.
And damnit. Humanity needs one. At least one. One honest to goodness not sheeplized, not evil, not doublethought, not stupid, not dumbledowned, not lazy, not distracted, not befuddled lucid problem solving progressive scientific organization for positive social evolution.
Its not that I want to be different or better than other such movements. I wish to god that there were movements i could join. But there aren't. One way or another they are all a waste of time and energy and that in and of itself is humanities number one tragedy. If real change is going to come, what quarter can it come from?
I realize more and more every day that i have a profound and unique responsibility. The question becomes how to pull that off,
without egotism, and how to hand it off to humanity considering that it would appear that being the start up dictator is more or less required.
If anybody has any leads on organizations i wouldn't have to sell my soul to or doublethink my way through believing could actually have an impact... I'm all ears.
Otherwise, its looking to me like it starts with me.
prometheuspan said this on July 19, 2010 at 3:47 pm | Reply

I see what you mean this whole new drama that is going on now at RBEF is disheartening.I agree trying to get people to do anything at all there is a hurdle to say the least(perhaps TZMs passifying techniques to prevent real action worked too good).The PreResearch section is a ghost town at this point even though it should be the one area that is bubbling with activity.I have a few ideas on getting new recruits over there by weeding out the dilligent from the woo seekers by scouring the net outside of TZM but alas there doesnt seem to be much point.If the basic structure of the whole group isnt going to set up by those with that responsibility then is there really any point for any of us to be there?
Anyways Ill try to implement those ideas see if they work and maybe get more of the Brainstorming done.However if the fates have written a different path then at least youll get a few more people to help you out if starting from scratch is the only option.
At this point I going to make some attempt to at least get my local government to set up some sort of a sustainable process for keeping my locale green.It might not be world changing but its a start.
Shane Nolan said this on July 21, 2010 at 9:36 pm | Reply

Well just checked out progress there...things seem to getting back on track.For a second there things were getting bleak
Shane Nolan said this on July 22, 2010 at 10:48 am | Reply

i seem to have broken through with cosar. a light finally went on.
it would be nice to see you there on the rights and responsibilities thread.
actually, you 2 anticultist, this is what it really comes down to all of it.
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=412&t=2355
TZM fails because they don't demand responsibilities from the admins and don't link rights to responsibilities.
RBEF was looking like it was going to go that same route until i broke thru with cosar. Now lets just try to get this to carry over to DM and Venux.
prometheuspan said this on July 22, 2010 at 2:38 pm | Reply

No thanks i am not interested in joining any group any longer. I am happy roaming about doing my own thing over here and participating in Conspracy Science threads.
Good luck over there doing what it is you all do, it is just not for me.
anticultist said this on July 22, 2010 at 3:10 pm | Reply

[...] All this has happened before [...]
Zeitgeist Blogs: Zeitgeist is a Mind Heist « Zeitgeist Movement Exposed said this on November 10, 2010 at 9:10 pm | Reply

[...] All this has happened before [...]
Zeitgeist Blogs: Zeitgeist is a Mind Heist « Zeitgeist Movement Exposed said this on November 10, 2010 at 9:12 pm | Reply

Click to get back to topic starter

Click to get back to topic starter


Earth 2 movie Fails [ For the Venus Project] and creators cut Fresco loose ! April.8.2010 32 50
3 part

http://web.archive.org/web/20110920191042/http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/04/08/earth-2-movie-venus-proect-fails-and-reators-cut-fresco-loose/

We always said we were on a journey; a journey of exploration, a journey of learning. Given the subject matter of Earth 2.0 - namely the new operating principles our species needs to employ if we are to have a sustainable biospherical future - creative ups and downs in the pre-production process were always going to be inevitable. But it still came as a distinct shock to us when we got into a bit of a rumble with The Venus Project (see an earlier blog article about our initial visit to The Venus Project a few months back). Well, it started out as a bit of a rumble but soon escalated to the point where we were forced to part company with working with them. In retrospect this is no bad thing and has meant that we are learning to stand on our own two feet independently of other projects. After all, we are making an independent movie and our creativity is at the behest of no organisation or movement (other than the biosphere of course).

Signs of looming trouble began in New York in mid-March. We were there to meet up again with Jacque Fresco (director of The Venus Project) along with his partner Roxanne Meadows. They were appearing at the annual Z-Day event (part of the Zeitgeist Movement). Now, up until this point we had been working very closely with Jacque. Indeed, we had lined him up to be the first main 'actor' in Earth 2.0. We wanted to him to delineate the core principles of The Venus Project such as the sharing of the Earth's resources. In fact, the idea has been to focus one section of Earth 2.0 on the notion of sharing and all that this implies.
The trouble began one morning over breakfast. As we sat and talked in a 71st Street restaurant, a background 'issue' came to the fore once more. Basically, Jacque and Roxanne do not like metaphysics. Anything spiritual or pertaining to the expansion of consciousness is anathema to The Venus Project. They even refer to popular spiritual ideas as "verbal masturbation". We knew this harsh stance of theirs only too well from previous meetings but had not let it interfere with our collaboration. Yet it was becoming ever more clear, at least to us, that The Venus Project will not be able to deliver its healing promise all by itself but needs to be driven by raised consciousness and changed values, both of which are psychological in nature and also unavoidably connected to emotion and spirit.


In other words, it is not enough to change social conditions and surround people with humane and intelligently applied technology (Mr Fresco's futurising revolves around this). All that means nothing if people themselves do not change inwardly in terms of their consciousness and their values. No matter how prevalent you make resources, no matter how utopian you engineer culture, no matter how efficient your mag-lev trains are, no matter how free you are of laborious work, people will still remain subject to petty negative emotions and will still have unhealthy relationships with one another. They will still identify with various exclusive groups, they will still be mean and angry and envious and be subject to all those other negative manifestations that we suffer from. These negative aspects of the human psyche are mechanical (i.e. they happen on their own) and effect us all regardless of external conditions. Yes, you can certainly design a culture which brings out the best in people and which does away with scarcity and financial corruption and such. But unless people develop themselves inwardly through mindfulness and self-knowledge, they will still find something to covet, something to get angry about, something to compete over, something to bear a grudge over, something to form a chip on the shoulder about, someone to be angry at, someone to fight with, someone to make into an enemy, someone to be envious of, and so on. And it is through a lack of consciousness and attentiveness to our relationships that leads to all of the above. Relationships are everything. Our relationships, with others and also toward environmental influences, define our lives. The chief problems of humanity therefore boil down to unhealthy relationships - with one another, with the rest of the biospherical web of life, and, ultimately, with the rest of the cosmos.
Consider how luxurious our lives are now compared with people living in the Middle Ages (back then there was no running water, no electricity, no shops, no cheap clothing, no fast food, no public transport, no spare time, no media, no internet, no mobile phones, no NHS, no welfare, no human rights, etc). We in the West now have pretty much everything in comparison. Yet we are still subject to stress, depression, existential malaise, greed, ego inflation, hatred, ecological insensitivity, racism, alcoholic violence, religious war, along with all manner of other negative manifestations and problematic relationships.
Thus, to reiterate, only inner psychological change - a change in values, an increase in self-knowledge, and a changed conception of our relationship to the biosphere and to one another - can pave the way toward healthy long term cultural change. Which means that radical personal change must precede radical social change. Our culture and all that our culture values and promotes is a direct reflection of the values of the collective psyche. If we change our minds and our values, if we become more sensitive to the life-support system that is the biosphere, if we change how we relate to one another and to the rest of Nature, if we upgrade our conception of the meaning of life, then our culture will change also.


Anyhow, we told Jacque and Roxanne that alongside The Venus Project our film will perforce feature other positive directions for change, other important visionary ideas. In particular, along with sharing, we will likely feature a section on symbiosis as well as a section pertaining to consciousness and self-knowledge (i.e. those ideas and practices that directly address the inner world outlined above). Plus a section on the various technologies at our disposal that can help to promote sharing, symbiosis and a new relationship with the rest of Nature. And all done in an artistic cinematic style.


Sounds fair enough? Not so. Explaining that Earth 2.0 wanted to present other strands of thought alongside the ideals of The Venus Project caused tremendous consternation. It soon became clear that The Venus Project is so rigid and inflexible that it will not associate itself with any other ideas. Worse, when we tried to explain why we wanted to feature a section on symbiosis (because it is a sustainable operating principle long employed throughout the web of life), Jacque and Roxanne would not have it. Indeed, they would not even allow the conversation to proceed forward. And I dearly wanted to tell them about mitochondria (the energy producing organelles inside our cells that have their own DNA thereby revealing their symbiotic origins). But it was impossible. They did not wish to listen.


This stubborn conviction that The Venus Project possesses the only practical way to solve the world's problems proved to be so marked that voices became raised. Yet we bent over backwards trying to reason with them. Surely being featured in a major release cinematic film would be for the best and would help them to spread their message regardless if it was included as part of a broader spectrum of new ideas? I mean, their Florida residence was at that time for sale. They need publicity and funds. But no, they adamantly refused to mix their ideas with other ideas, particularly if those other ideas were about learning from Nature or about metaphysics and self-knowledge. And so it was that we parted company.
Looking back on these events, what we have learned is that one can differentiate between The Venus Project (a rigid organisation) and some of the ideas it promotes (which are adaptable). For instance, the idea that the Earth's resources be shared and that mankind behave like the global family that it actually is, is not a new idea nor is it copyrighted to The Venus Project. In fact, much of what Jacque Fresco talks about and writes about is voiced by any number of wise people. Thus, Earth 2.0 will still explore the notion of sharing planetary wealth and behaving toward one another in a non-competitive non-profit way. And rather than focus on the circular cities of Jacque Fresco, Earth 2.0 will look at current urban upgrades and current technologies that can bring us back into harmony with the larger biospherical system of which we are a part. Indeed, Earth 2.0 will look at what the web of life can teach us about sustainable behaviour - after all, life has had three and a half billion years to hone the art of sustainability.


Returning to the notion that the world is made of relationships and that it is relationships that must evolve and be upgraded if we are to have a sustainable planetary tenure - this notion of relationships came to the fore with the break with The Venus Project. For the plain fact of the matter is that The Venus Project is, by its very nature, incapable of relating to many people. It is as though it has been in a bubble for the last 30 years, separated from the rest of the world, and has lost the power of empathetic communication. So whereas Mr Fresco can speak well on stage about various subjects, as far as current trends are concerned wherein people are upgrading their lives in an eco-friendly way, this is something that seems outside the scope of The Venus Project (having visited the sprawling headquarters of The Venus Project numerous times it is rather ironic that, despite copious Florida sunshine, there are no solar panels, nor are there any signs of home-grown vegetables).

The biggest problem however is when the issue at hand turns to mind and spirit - for this is something that leaves The Venus Project cold and mute. Yet we are all in this reality together and thus we have to relate to one another via common ground. This common ground is the biosphere, Nature, the web of life on Earth, that larger life support system into which humanity is woven. And the common ground is also our inner life, our consciousness. This too we share and this too we can upgrade. All this must be taken into account by Earth 2.0. So now we stand on our own two feet and now we move forward with determination and confidence. This is the Way.

Simon G. Powell - Earth 2.0 scriptwriter - April 2010


http://earth2movie.blogspot.com/2010/04/earth-20-finds-its-own-way.html

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Anticultist blog comments

Welcome to the club. Literally hundreds of people gave their blood, sweat and tears, since the 1960′s, to help make Fresco's dream possible. Once these followers are parted with their money, their services are no longer required, and they are dumped, and he leaves town. Marxism (by any other name)cannot tolerate spiritual beliefs, because you need to break a few eggs to make an Omelette. Just ask Pol Pot or Fidel Castro. Ask Fresco where the money came from to purchase the Venus Property in the first place. And what happened to the investors who never got their money back. Fresco's favorite line is "The Venus project IS NOT a DEMOCRACY". It's his way or the highway. Imagine if he was in a position of power where he could "really" do some damage! It's great being an avowed Atheist, morality is "relative" regardless of who is hurt in the process. The rules of morality are made up as you go along. That being said, his reading list is still well worth looking at, artistic drawings have their limitations without foundational information.
Euripide Sneed said this on April 8, 2010 at 5:44 am | Reply

Hey there thanks for passing by.
You said Ask where he got his money for the Venus Project land and also insinuated he takes money and then cuts people off and runs. At least thats what I am interpreting.
Would you care to elaborate on this and provide us with a history of what you know, have heard and perhaps some names and evidence?
I would love to read more about this.
anticultist said this on April 8, 2010 at 3:15 pm | Reply

Well i guess that this cult are losing more and more credability with each passing day.At this point he is certainly giving credability to his critics claims of hypocrisy and this becoming a dictatorship as ive said before JF,RM and PJ should not be going around putting down religion and spiratual beliefs so strongly as there would be many moderates who would agree with concepts of TVP but wouldnt be ready to put away their religious/spiratual beliefs just now or at all.I'm atheist myself but I dont rubbish other peoples beliefs (i only have a problem with the fundies) and I know tht groups that do rubbish something as widespread and ingrained in society as religion/sprituality usually dont last very long
Shane Nolan said this on April 8, 2010 at 1:27 pm | Reply

Indeed.
They seem to think they are doing themselves a service by casting aside the majority of the worlds population, yet at the same time are attempting to recruit the worlds population.
This in itself is a juxtaposed mess they are making of their movement.
The way i see it is like this, Jaque has always been a stubborn old fucker [watch his interviews old and new for evidence], and he will not budge an inch on his beliefs and borrowed ideas. He is possibly one of the most difficult and arrogant people I have had the displeasure of watching and listening to, so it hardly suprises me a bit that he has never gotten anywhere in all this time. In the 35 years he has been working at this he has had 7 businesses with different people, the only person to have stuck with him all through it is Roxanne his younger bed buddy. Now judging from this latest escapade it is clear why he has had zero zuccess at achieving his goals, he is not someone people seem to like working with.
And one has to ask the question, is he doing it intentionally ?
Perhaps he has a lack of empathy and inability for cooperation that is so extreme he is bordering on mania or manipulation. ?
anticultist said this on April 8, 2010 at 3:26 pm | Reply

In reference to your question, I don't want to elaborate to the point that it sounds like I want to bash Fresco. Because, in fact, there are many worse people in this world. And, he lives a life of frugalness, having survived the depression. So, those of us who invested in his projects do not have the interest in ever taking him to court, because he has been and always will be a "grandfather" figure to us. That being said, "fool me twice, shame on ME". He doesn't solicit money from people to buy fancy cars (as do some religious leaders), almost ALL the money he receives goes back into his art work, and toy models. So, under the circumstances, I gave him a "pass" for his actions, a long time ago, and in fact learned a lot from his various lectures. I learned to think straight, and corrected many of my metaphysical "assumptions" about the universe. But, like many eccentric "creative types", he has a sort of tunnel vision when it comes to remembering who his friends and supporters are. You're IN today, OUT tomorrow!
In the 1970s he was having regular membership meetings at his home in Miami. With a weekly group of maybe 10 to 12 followers. Up until then, everything was only on paper, with "nothing" to show the rest of the "non-believing" world. So, the group (called Sociocyberneering at the time) signed an agreement to purchase some land (near Miami where they all lived) and they agreed to make regular monthly payments until the land was paid off. It would take several years to complete the payoff. The group had the vision to "live the dream" in their own little dome community. The community was to be self-sustaining with agriculture and other manufacturing products Fresco had designs for. They even donated funds for some small dome molds, which could be used for acquiring government grants. The group made regular payments, many of them making only minimum wage (most of members were low income, well meaning do-gooders). Whatever it took to make the monthly payments was done, even if it meant skipping a few meals a week. The goal was to show the world "what is possible with futuristic science on your side".
One day, without discussion, the land that was purchased was sold. A new "legal entity" was created in the middle of nowhere (Venus), so that the investors would not be able to live there and commute to work at the same time. The new entity was called the "Venus Project". The proceeds from the sold land was "funneled" into this new entity. The original investors in Sociocyberneering would have no "standing" or voting rights in the new entity. There was no other reason to change legal entities except to protect the funds from those who had built up the fund. If the goal was just to locate a nicer neighborhood, the Sociocyberneering entity could have continued to have control and voting rights of the new land. But, not so if you "dissolve" (under the attorney's advice) the first entity, and create a second entity. Those members who were upset about this surprise move were assured that they were still welcome to "visit" the new entity and new land "anytime" they wanted to. But, they would have NO voting privileges as to how the money would be spent with the new entity. In the beginning, the 2 hour drive from Miami was tolerated, just to "visit" the new property. But, in the end, most of the investors cut their losses, and stopped contributing further, and said goodbye to any money they had deposited. The bottom line is that we are talking about events that happened over 30 years ago. Some of the members of the time are no longer alive. Most have all lost contact with each other. But, it is safe to say, in spite of all the financial disappointment that happened, most if not all the former members would like to see Fresco succeed. BUT, they prefer to admire him from "afar", in the same way you can watch and enjoy a "Kung Fu" demonstration on stage, without having to jump on stage in the middle of all the "Kung-Pow" and get kicked by a "well meaning" performer. I would recommend anyone who has not heard any of his lectures to do so. He is one of the best of what he does, namely, explaining "systems approach" methodology to those students who never heard of the phrase. And also he helps people understand "TEC" (total enclosure) systems, as found on cruise ships, and applied to small futuristic communities. I'm sorry I have no other specific details about what happened 30 years ago. I am a strong believer that people should "experience him" directly, on their own terms, and determine yourself what he is or "is not" in terms of his personal behavior. I was particularly moved by your "experience" at the beginning of this blog, and how your well meaning words just "bounced off" him. But, to be honest, if I were to meet Einstein in person, I can't guarantee that he would be any easier to deal with on a "human" level. "Uncommon people" many times cannot relate to us "common people", and maybe it has always been that way.....
Euripide Sneed said this on April 8, 2010 at 11:37 pm | Reply

Thank you for taking time to give us this information, I think I can validate that what you are saying is correct from the video.
"The venus Project Welcome to the future" where it introduces the other members of socio cyberneering [update these arent the sociocyberneering members], I watched this a while back to find out more about Jacques past. It seemed like it was a small school of people just like you said.
I think what you said about the liquidating of assets and then turning it over to the present owners and voiding the team was a very shrewd and calculating thing to do.
You appear to be a lot more willing to forgive and give the man credit than most people I know would be.
To me this seems plain dishonest and it makes me worry and wonder about the present memberships efforts to make this man and woman [because she is not innocent in this at all, she was there during all this] more money, as I have discussed in my 'venus project is not just non profit' thread here on this blog.
How you handled this says more about your character than his/hers so again thankyou for that post.
For the readers wanting to see this sociocyberneering video please start at part 1 below, all parts are stored on youtube.

anticultist said this on April 9, 2010 at 2:37 am | Reply
I think there might be a mix-up with the video. There is no mention of Sociocyberneering or their membership in it. As far as Venus Project is concerned, there is no voting membership that I know of. Just Jacque. That was the main advantage of dissolving Sociocyberneering, no more "votes" to contend with.
In reference to your other point about forgiveness, I must confess that I WAS distressed while it was all happening, and it DID take several years to cool down. The same is true for the other members. It is "not" his goal to bite the hand that feeds him, it just happens with him "naturally" out of habit. He is focused on the goal, and not the intricacies of "give and take" which is all a part of working with a team. He works best when he is alone, period. He just wants someone to hand him a billion dollars and "shut up", and not ask any questions. Consequently, none of the multiple millionaires who were introduced to him in the past, by some of his supporters, were interested or enticed to "buy in" to an "offer/relationship" like that. It's almost funny that he seems "surprised" that no one in a position of responsibility wants to just "dump" a bag of money on his lap, with no questions asked. We try to explain to him that this only happens in the movies, but he is never amused by this observation. Anyway, keep up the good work, and I will enjoy reading your updates in the future...
Euripide Sneed said this on April 9, 2010 at 5:08 am | Reply

Ah right the reason I said this [about the video] was because it mentions Grover herring perhaps the attorney you mentioned ? And then went on to introduce other people, I simply thought these people were part of that sociocyberneering team because none of them are mentioned or even present now.
It semed to fit with your story a bit.
There are a lot of people he has been linked to in business in the past:
grover herring
cathrine coniber
charles kindler
creighton a dickerson
don gillette
millard deutsch
richard fogleman
sam laurie
steve doll
I am beginning to wonder if these people have the same experiences and opinions about him as yourself, hence why the business connections dissolved and they are no longer around.
anticultist said this on April 9, 2010 at 12:07 pm | Reply

Exactly. OK now I understand the reference to this video.
There never was any classroom. People sat on a couch in his living room at the peak of the membership in Miami. Over half the pictures in the video, including classrooms, is "stock video" that the film maker took from some video library. The people you list were all volunteers who tried to contribute to his cause at one time or another. They come and go like a revolving door. They come in "excited" and "inspired", and leave "despondent", knowing that the organization is about teaching, but not necessarily about "team work" and "doing". It has always been a one man show, and always will be. I compare it with "grade school". It's a "crucial" experience towards teaching us the 3 "R"s, it prepares us for the real world or college, but the course is fixed and limited. You will never learn Calculus, Chemistry or Physics there. It's a nice place to visit, "but I wouldn't want to live there" as the old saying goes. But, I must stress that it is up to the individual, to decide when they have had enough. Some people have had enough after 1 lecture, others continued to learn for several years before leaving. 90% of the lecture content has not changed since the 1950′s. And that's OK. That's what grade school is about. Should we stop teaching basic math in grade school simply because it was taught 100 years ago? No, children still need to learn 1+1 before they move on to Calculus. We can't start children on Calculus (at least, not with current technology). We need Fresco to pull us out of the "mental mud" that society exposes us to as children, in that he teaches us to think more clearly, with our "brains full of mush". BUT, then that moment must come, and only "you" will know when that time "is", and you are told "time for you to leave" (either by Fresco, or your inner voice)....
Euripide Sneed said this on April 9, 2010 at 2:56 pm | Reply

Personally I dont need Fresco nor never really did, I thought like him and about the stuff he does before I ever came across him. The reason I liked VP was because it was similar to the way I had previously thought, and as many members will testify it is like a kinship in finding someone with a similar kind of outlook that draws them there.
Indeed many people think and have thought about the things Fresco discusses, so there is certainly nothing unique about him or his concepts.
I like the way you say it though, [paraphrasing] Fresco is a primary school teacher, his content is basic and unscientific. When you become bored you need to get serious and Fresco provides little serious content other than ideas and pictures.
anticultist said this on April 9, 2010 at 4:03 pm | Reply

True, AC. True. I agree. And as Anon said, he's boring.
mickeymouse2012 said this on April 10, 2010 at 10:21 am

What makes Fresco so appealing? I honestly do not understand. I have watched his videos and read his material. But I have yet to feel any awesome lightning bolt of inspiration strike my brain. Mostly I am bored to tears.
Anon said this on April 9, 2010 at 3:40 pm | Reply

Yes, for many adult minds, there is no lightning bolt listening to Fresco. Fresco's entire "lecture circuit" is a combination of several influences in his life: The (ancient) movie "The shape of things to come" (Wells), The Technocracy Movement, The works of BF Skinner, The works of Buckminister Fuller (modified by Monolithic Dome concepts), and books such as Tyranny of Words, The Natural History of Nonsense, Science & Sanity, Mechanistic Conception of Life, Pavlov, Prefabrication theory using space age plastics, and finally "Engineers & Price System" (Veblin). There are 100 more books, but these are the core concepts of his lecture circuit. Many students graduating high school today or in College will probably "never" read most of these books in their life time. And they probably have no desire to. So, a lecture from Fresco puts all these concepts together in just a few hours. But, I agree, it is best to read the books directly if you have the time.
Euripide Sneed said this on April 9, 2010 at 4:58 pm | Reply

Did you happen to see on their website last year they were trying to sell their land in venus for $700,000 and then cut and run to Ecuador ?
Sorry I dont mean that to be rude mentioning it, just wondered what your thoughts about that were if you had not seen it.
Personally speaking when the group found out about it there were all kinds of arguments going about. The land had been up for sale for a long time too, and they kept reducing the price, Roxanne and the others even made out like they were doing people a favour selling it so cheaply.
But in the context of this information its clear now that no matter how much they sell it for they are going to always make a profit off it, and I am willing to bet most of it was paid by all these members in the 1970′s.
What incredible nerve these two have, in the emails in a thread here she makes out like we should feel sorry for her hardships, what a pile of baloney this really makes me angry.
anticultist said this on April 9, 2010 at 6:45 pm | Reply

The property near Miami was was purchased for approximately $16,000, which was a lot of money in the 70′s, when people were trying to live on minimum wage. I don't know how much it was sold for, since it was still undeveloped. Probably approximately the same price. The property in Venus was approximately $40K, because it was more acreage. I believe that the property in Venus is under his own name so that there is no distribution requirement if he sells the property. When he sold his home in Miami for over $100K (or maybe $150K?), there was enough money to pay for the Venus property, with the help of the Sociocyberneering funds. So, he did put up a few buildings on the Venus property which would serve as his new home. But, the value of all the buildings "combined" would be under $100K because they are sort of made of metal and gunnite, as opposed to more expensive materials like bricks or lumber. So, the asking price of the land is a little high compared to values of the surrounding acreage. Yes, I had read someplace that some politicians in Ecuador invited them to live there at their own expense, and maybe help with tourism. It is possible they may have even offered him a grant to build some safer housing that could survive disasters of weather or earth quakes. But, I've been out of the loop for many decades.
Euripide Sneed said this on April 9, 2010 at 8:47 pm | Reply

Jacque must of owned a large house back then in the 70′s to be able to sell it for that ammount of money.
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/housing/census/historic/values.html
anticultist said this on April 9, 2010 at 9:28 pm | Reply


This is verbal masturbation?
And BSing your way to a life of luxury at the serfdom of others isnt?
Shane Nolan said this on April 9, 2010 at 10:10 pm | Reply

Inspirational video!
The housing prices in Miami have always been higher than the "Florida" average. There is a lot of unused land in Florida. A chart of "Miami" that only goes back 20 years gives a closer approximation, as follows: http://mysite.verizon.net/vodkajim/housingbubble/miami.html
The home was actually a 2 bedroom, in a borderline neighborhood. It needs to be understood that he never "made it big" doing what he does. He mostly was, and is, unemployed. His income from giving lectures at his home was only $10-$20 per lecture, 2 or 3 times a week. Roxanne, being an unemployed art major, helped a little with the rent. But, no, I don't envy his current financial status. This recent "lecture circuit" is probably more lucrative than anything he has done before. But, I have NO idea what his going rate is these days to be a "guest speaker", plus per diem? But, it definitely helps to pay the bills, compared to what he was making doing "odd jobs". Now, if he actually gets $700K for that land, I will change my opinion about him being poor. That would make a nice nest egg. But, I think the actual value might be closer to $200K-$300K, if they can get that much.
Euripide Sneed said this on April 9, 2010 at 11:28 pm | Reply

The current quotes stated on ZM page are he gets $8000 $6000 to speak [acording to an email TVP sent to the poland chapter], and Roxanne publicly stated they will not fly coach due to Jacques poor health, so theres the added cost of 1st class air fare.
Milking it ?
oh and Roxanne always has to travel with him as well as another condition.
Also for someone who is against woo and spirituality its interesting to note he charged them this and travelled to Cancun to do a 2012 tipping point lecture filled with woo and spirituality.
Perhaps when it comes to money even the great Fresco can be bought ?
the so-called 2012 Prophets Tipping Point Conference. This was all a bit strange and 'new agey' but it was powerful circumstantial currents what took us there m'lud. Surprisingly the conference took place in an ultra posh five star hotel - not the sort of place you go to on a budget (this led to lots of jokes about it being a Profits Conference). Anyhow, we spent our time interviewing attending speakers like Graham Hancock, John Major Jenkins, Jose Arguelles, Daniel Pinchbeck, and others. It was also the case that the inimitable Jacque Fresco from The Venus
http://earth2movie.blogspot.com/2010/02/banned-from-chichen-itza-earth-20-goes.html
anticultist said this on April 9, 2010 at 11:31 pm | Reply

Wow. That's a year's salary (he would normally collect), and getting it in ONE evening! Id say that they are doing OK, since the land is already paid for with no mortgage. I guess the "price system" isn't so bad after all. According to his schedule, I would think he does "at least" 2 or more appearances per month.
Euripide Sneed said this on April 10, 2010 at 1:07 am | Reply

Just so you know you are safe to post here.There are some of the fanatic ZM members who always try to post here whose posts I dont allow to be viewed.
Some of the things they are saying about you and us here is very rude, for instance one person here is making out like you are a liar and that we are making this all up ourselves. [in much more explicit and conspiracy theorist based terminology]
We get this all the time on this blog from their strange members, so beware if you decide to go public who you are, that they will bombard you with all manner of hate mail.
As you probably know there are some strange people on the internet, and the Zeitgeist movement has attracted quite a lot of those types.
anticultist said this on April 10, 2010 at 1:38 am | Reply

Date Country City Definite/not
6th April Colombia Bogota yes
15th April New Zealand Auckland yes
17th April New Zealand Wellington yes
21st April Australia Brisbane yes
23rd April Australia Sydney yes
25th April Australia Melbourne yes
29th April Australia Perth yes
8th May Japan Tokyo yes
20th May India Bangalore yes
5th June Slovenia Ljubjana yes
8th/10th June Greece Athens yes
26th/27th June Netherlands Eindhoven yes
3rd July Portugal Lisbon prob
10th July Spain Valencia yes
17th July France Paris prob
24th July Sweden Stockholm yes
31st July Denmark Copenhagen yes
7th August Scotland Glasgow yes
14th August Ireland Dublin yes
21st August England Bristol prob
28th August Germany Munich yes
4th September Switzerland Geneva yes
11th September Italy Milan prob
18th September Iceland Reykjavík prob
25th September Canada Montreal yes
2nd October Canada Toronto yes
9th October Canada London yes
16th October Canada Calgary yes
23rd October Canada Vancouver yes
USA x 5 Lecturesprob
* Yes = definite
* Prob = almost definite, still working on bringing to conclusion.
Thats 24 yes if we multiply that by $8000 per appearance we get = $192,000 plus 1st class air everywhere
anticultist said this on April 10, 2010 at 1:26 pm | Reply

While you are looking at the left hand, the right had will getcha. Just follow the money.... Ciao...
Euripide Sneed said this on April 11, 2010 at 3:25 pm
Speaking of following the money he is now selling his archived lectures in audio format from 1974-1980, pricey as well and will be terrible quality no doubt.
Would this be familiar to you personally ?
It states it was recorded by attendees to the lectures.
http://www.thevenusproject.com/store?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=33&category_id=6
anticultist said this on April 11, 2010 at 10:47 pm

Yes. It was very common to bring a tape recorder to the lectures. Sometimes 1 person would bring one. Other times several people would bring one. Admission varied between $1 per lecture session to $3 per lecture session depending on what year it was. In the 70′s it was $1 per session, in the 80′s it was $2-$3 per session. It was affordable to most people, and if they couldn't afford it, they could attend any way for free. Part of the fun was just meeting some of the other attendees after the session, and going to a restaurant for a snack. I haven't heard the quality of the sound, but normally the microphone was only a few feet away, since it was in a small living room (informal). If the price is high, you may be able to get a used copy on eBay for a few dollars. The lectures are well worth listening to if you never heard them. Especially if you don't want to read the hundreds of books that some of the information is extracted from. The problems came when we started to invest in the "futuristic commune", living like Captain Kirk, with beds that make themselves, and robots that would plant the crops, harvest the crops, and using only organic pest control and fertilizers. In those days organic foods were expensive, so it would be great to get it at a low cost through automation. Star Trek was big in those days, and most of us would pay anything to live that life style immediately, rather than wait 100 years when the rest of the society would have it. But, it wasn't meant to be, as you know....
Euripide Sneed said this on April 12, 2010 at 12:47 am

I am not that certain if I could stand listening to his repetitive anecdotal stories any longer. I have pretty much had my fill of listening to him repeat unsubstantiated claim after unsubstantiated claim. I would much rather read a good book with citations/references and an academic content.
It might be something other people feel willing to persecute themselves with, and maybe they will be even more foolish to pay the extortianate price they are asking who knows?
Personally speaking I find it interesting you were there from the beginning when it all started, and it must be quite interesting to you [aside from the obvious bad history] to observe Frankensteins monster be unleashed on the public ?
anticultist said this on April 12, 2010 at 1:10 am

I understand what you are saying. Some of my statements were tongue in cheek. I definitely wasn't there in the beginning. Just mid-seventies forward. He began many of his public lectures in the 60′s. I'm not really worried about his return to public speaking. I believe it is a temporary thing. Eventually, things will gradually begin to implode as the lecture audience begins to thin out. The cult following will probably continue to market his materials even after he retires. For example, his first book "Looking Forward" now sells from $200-$400 each. I remember I had 10 or 20 copies, years ago that were $6 each. But, they got lost over the years...
Euripide Sneed said this on April 12, 2010 at 3:21 am

Yeah I saw these prices for that book and simply laughed, I know for certain that book is not even worth a tenth of that price. But thats what happens when you get a sudden spout of interest in a person/topic people start capitalising monetarily off it.
anticultist said this on April 12, 2010 at 10:43 am

You will be intersted in this, its an email from TVP to a potential tour host in Poland
Nice to hear from you.
I have enclosed the Official PDF files for The World Tour 2010.
I think Jacque and Roxanne could probably be with you in Poland near the end of June. They are giving a Lecture in Slovenia on the 5th June, then to Greece, probably Turkey after that so end of June could be good for Poland.
You can organize a Lecture in 2 ways, one is to get a University or someone to sponsor it or you can organize it the way we did in London and hire a Lecture Theatre and sell tickets for it. We have a system set up for selling tickets which is linked directly to The Venus Project. We sold 720 Tickets for $25 USD here in London for 2 Lectures which were a complete sell out. Once the tickets were all sold Roxanne reimbursed us for the hire of the Lecture Theatre. It worked like clockwork here in the UK. We did have to put up a deposit for the Lecture Theatre before we sold the tickets however but obviously this was all reimbursed at the end.
I feel the best way to organize this is to hire a Lecture theatre and sell tickets.
Jacque and Roxanne would require 8000 Euros which includes the Lecture fee, 2 Business Class Flights and Hotel full-board during their visit.
The reason for this tour is essentially to spread the word about the Venus Project in the quickest way possible and also to enable The Venus Project to survive in this monetary system. Since the economic crash Roxanne's work has dried up completely and it was her salary that kept the Venus project going.
I would just like to add that the Venus Project has survived all these years from the hard work of Jacque and Roxanne and them ploughing into it all there own money, but since the credit crunch has hit us this source has dried up. The success of this world tour really will be the make or break of the Venus project financially. The Zeitgeist movement says that it is the activist arm of The Venus Project. Well, I feel it is time for us to activate and help The Venus Project to survive in this monetary system.
We are in the process of preparing a video clip, poster and flyer which you will be able to download soon to advertise your Event.
Jacque and Roxanne are happy to appear on TV shows, do interviews with journalists and radio shows whilst in the country hosting the Lectures too, anything which will help spread the information of a Global Resource Based Economy.
The Lectures will be two and half hours long, which includes a dvd of 15 minutes and 45 minutes Q & A's.
Let me know your thoughts on all of this.
Warmest regards,
Heather Odom
Event Coordinator for The Venus Project
anticultist said this on April 29, 2010 at 10:54 am | Reply

So let us look at that:
2.30 hour lecture includes 15 minute video & 45 minute Q & A
Which is a grand total of 1.30 hour lecture between Roxanne & Jacque. = 45 minutes each.
720 Tickets for $25 USD here in London for 2 Lectures
720 x 25 = $18,000 US per lecture
2 lectures = $36,000 US
Jacque & Roxanne require $8,000 for a lecture, they earned $16,000 here [London] for 3 hours talking, 1.30 hours answering questions, 30 mins watching a video.
The event organisers made: $36,000 [total for 2 events] -$16,000 [fees for 2 lectures] = $20,000 spare.
Whatever the venue hire was is obviously subtracted but it aint gonna cost $20,000 I think we can agree here.
Business class air fares each cost there abouts = http://www.skyclub.com/specialfares.html
Full board hotel prices $150 - $900 per person per night
So theres money to be made for everyone involved who is having these two techno gurus visiting town.
anticultist said this on April 29, 2010 at 8:18 pm

It will be interesting to see how much of this "windfall profits" will be swept under the rug when it's time to file income taxes, since profits made out of the country are difficult for the IRS to track...
Euripide Sneed said this on May 5, 2010 at 12:18 pm

Fresco doesn't strike me as particularly scientific. He strikes me as dogmatic.
Anon said this on April 10, 2010 at 3:41 am | Reply

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=3&id=245808&limit=10&limitstart=120#246645
Hi All,
Andrew Buxton from TVPDesign here.
I have been asked by Simon Powell of the Earth 2.0 team to to post this on his behalf
(I have made my comments on the blog itself so i wont be re-posting here)
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I am the author of the Earth 2.0 blog article at the centre of this rather heated debate. In the light of some rather hurtful accusations on here and on Facebook, I would like to clarify a few things - and have asked Andrew Buxton to post this to the forum thread. In particular, let me explain a bit more about what happened at the breakfast event (which was a few days before Jacque's Z-Day talk). Yes, this is by necessity a one-sided recall but I will endeavour to tell it like it is/was.
I was explaining to Jacque and Roxanne about the second 'actor' we wanted who would be introducing the second section of the film. This was a certain professor who is an authority on symbiosis (co-operation). I was explaining that symbiosis is an operating principle that life has learned and that we can mimic it in our cultural and social behaviour. Jacque and Roxanne then started going on about the fact that you can have symbiosis but then it turns into something else, and also that the fact that this person was a professor meant nothing.
I explained that I was referring to mutualistic symbiosis (which is a scientific definition). I gave the example that about 90% of plant species have symbiotic fungi associated with them. Jacque responded by pointing out that certain fungi can attack trees and that we can't really get tutorial insights from Nature. I responded by saying that I was referring specifically to symbiotic fungi and not to parasitic fungi.
I then wanted to explain about mitochondria (VTV - please note that the midi-chlorians of Star Wars fame are based upon mitochondria, not the other way around) - that they are the powerhouses of cells that have their own DNA - thereby highlighting their symbiotic origins. Same with chloroplasts (organelles in plants that are bound up with photosynthesis) - these too have their own DNA and were once separate living organisms. And I was further trying to explain that mitochondria combine the oxygen that we breathe with the food that we eat and thus release the energy that our bodies run on. Hence mitochondria are important - indeed they are crucial for the whole animal kingdom. And they are present through an ancient symbiotic union. Symbiosis thus underlies key aspects of the tree of life. But I could not relate all this info to Jacque - he and Roxanne simply would not let me.
So symbiosis/co-operation is an important life principle (also evinced betwixt bees and plants, corals, gaseous exchanges betwixt plant kingdom and animal kingdom, etc) - and we can follow suit and learn from and adopt such a principle - i.e. have a symbiotic relationship with one another and with the rest of the biosphere. Or at least this is an interesting concept to think about. Jacque, however, would not let me get to the point - and I did raise my voice a bit and for this I hereby apologise. In short, it was impossible to speak on this subject and to really explain why we wanted Earth 2.0 to delineate info about symbiosis (we did not even get to talk about the other sections of the film).
Anyhow, the conversation broke down. Roxanne explained that they did not want TVP to be associated with other ideas or other directions. The example was given that it would be like mixing with Christianity or something - it would serve to mislead people about TVP.
When he left, Jacque told me that he "knew what I meant" - as if to say he was being devil's advocate or something. In any case, the meeting was not productive. It all fell apart. We did try very hard to convince them that it would be worthwhile being in E2 even if they were presented alongside other ideas - as long as they got to say what they needed to, surely that would be good? Alas no.
As to accusations that Earth 2.0 will be promoting religion or spiritual BS - we will likely have a section on consciousness. Many times J and R said they don't like this kind of talk. I noticed that they had a number of behaviourism books at their residence - and behaviourists never liked talking about consciousness.
I guess the 'spirituality' we are alluding to is bound up with our perceived connection with Nature (also bear in mind that Zeitgeist means 'spirit of the age' - so there are different definitions of 'spirit' and it is not necessarily a pejorative word). Such Nature-based spirituality (like in Avatar) has its place and is important to many people (I include myself).
I might also add that in a recent interview with Peter Joseph on Youtube he linked god with the laws of Nature (i.e. that they are synonymous). If pushed, this is exactly my stance - but I can't vouch for the rest of the E2 team. We also want to feature green tech and eco-upgrades - things like green roofs, eco-buildings, clean energy, and such. Plus the initial section of the film will still likely be about sharing and will explore many of the issues discussed by TVP.
As I have said elsewhere (although I am subject to change), I reckon the only organisation we should all readily declare absolute allegiance with is the self-sustaining biosphere itself. And the biosphere is flexible and evolves.
Simon G Powell
anticultist said this on April 10, 2010 at 3:50 am | Reply

This is such a reasonable sounding person and seems honest too, and he seems fairly open to helping ZM out. But from the way this conversation appears to have gone it looks like the dogmatic Jacque & Roxanne have once again attempted to hijack someone elses work or else leave, thereby ruining any chances they had.
Its also interesting to note the level of backlash from the ZM membership ranks in the thread I linked above and the original blog page. They simply can not get their head out their arses that this man is not talking about magical mystery theatre. He is attempting to be open to scientific processes and also give an element of unproven conscious theory a run through.
This movement is so far removed from everyone else these days that they are starting to look like a dead stick thats about to snap, as opposed to a soft fresh bendy branch. [my only analogy of the day here I believe]
anticultist said this on April 10, 2010 at 3:59 am | Reply

Frank Da Silva [Earth 2.0 director] said...
Thanks for all the participation, comments, feedback, interesting direct messages and emails of support and all the interest expressed so far - we reached 80 comments!! Keep it coming - we will not be closing or locking this discussion like the TZM forum did!! All open debate is good!
I posted this early on in another thread on Facebook:
With respect guys, we will be not dealing with 'metaphysics' like you guys are projecting (E2.0) will be... everything is speculation... We are not metaphysical, spirit worshipping people or hippies (like my friend Mark Waters pointed out)! The lack of communication is a major problem indeed. I also experienced the same lack of care for other peoples' opinions and communication was lacking many times over during TVP lectures and also at Zday NYC where I was a few weeks ago - I also saw/filmed Jacque/TVP lectures in 3 different countries so far with different types of audience. Some are saying we are not attached with reality because we only deal with 'metaphysical stuff' - well, REALITY is what you can get away with... reality can also become a "shared hallucination"! Take this example: (I am quoting here from a well known article on the subject) -
"if there was a race of people living on an island who thought that the color green was actually the color pink, are they wrong? To the majority of the people on this planet, maybe, but to them the notion of "being wrong" about something like that is absurd".
All I want to say is - lets stop projecting what E2.0 film might be like, etc... we need each other in all levels if you want to change something out there. So far, only a small bunch of people saw the inital provisional structure and the initial draft of the script for the E2.0 film. Lets stop pointing the fingers on each other and speculating in things we do not know for fact. Lots of (you- TVP/TZM fans/followers), are writing posts out there saying we will be presenting lots of phony people talking about 'metaphysics', spirits, and blah blah... so, please help me out here - (I'm producing/directing this film) - can you tell me who these so 'metaphysical' people are (?) because, I do not know yet!! Also, looks like everyone here knows how the script will be and how the film ( at least 3 years production) will be presented/filmed. By the way, we didn't even start the 'principal photography' yet!! Peace!
anticultist said this on April 10, 2010 at 8:18 pm | Reply

Reply from Jacque and Roxanne:
This is from a false name and is a false article. This only means that Jacque is getting more known these false accusations and lies, as Jacque always stated, will start to surface when people become more well know. This person sounds bitter and angry but also is grossly misinformed about the situations he is trying to discuss. There were many people who came to Jacque's lectures in Miami in the 1970's they came and when mostly depending upon how relevant the information was to their lives.
In fact we are now achieving some of these past lectures and we felt the information would be of great interest to many people. These are the lectures from the Miami area during the 1970,s. We now have just compiled 15 of these lectures on three 5 CD sets and on almost all of them you can hear Jacque at the end say it is $3.00 for non-members and $2.00 for members of Sociocyberneering not the $10 -$20 this person claims Jacque charged. This helps to show you what this person says below is utterly false in regards to what Jacque used to charge and also in many other areas as we will try and explain.
Many of Jacque's friends he had even in childhood are still his friends (those that are still alive) alone with many that went to his lectures in 160' and 70's.
Many people who attended the lectures that Jacque held in his home wanted to get together and purchase land and build something. Jacque was going to supply all of the designs. Jacque offered drawing lesson so people could participate in some way but it really boiled down to three people do did most of the work the others were mostly verbal.
They did put up enough money to get a down payment for about 40 acres of land in Naples, Florida for about $600. an acre, but they did not continue the payments except for 3 people but those 3 could not make the land payments alone so a lawyer friend of Jacque's, Cleave Herring, came forth and continued the payments until we could sell the land. Nothing was made on that venture.
It was strange because if the group did follow through with the payment and kept the land if they ever wanted to sell it would have been worth millions because that area became a very exclusive wealthy area to live. The land value rocketed in Naples. But Jacque was not going into it as a business venture.
I imagine people pulled out for different reasons but some said the zoning board would never let Fresco build what they wanted to build. After everyone pulled out. Jacque, with drawings, went to the zoning board out of curiosity and asked for a half hour to speak with the person in charge. They spoke for an hour and a half the gentleman asked if he could join the organization and said he would do whatever he could to help the project develop. Unfortunately by that time there was no organization after the members stopped paying on the land.
There was no profit from the sale of the land in Naples in fact money was lost after paying back Herring, the real estate agent and the rest of the mortgage. We were just glad to get it sold so there was no more debt piled up. That whole episode was disappointing to Jacque and the other two people who continued to work with him. After all he put out a lot of effort with people for over a decade to teach them things in all areas.
As I said some of these lectures are now available to the public and can be found on our website. We are working on getting more available but it is a long process to do this.
The money to buy the land in Venus came from the sale of a home in Miami Jacque sold. He lived there for about a year of more. This house was in the black section of Miami so you know the land value was not high.
This person states:
The property near Miami was purchased for approximately $16,000,which was a lot of money in the 70's, when people were trying to live on minimum wage. I don't know how much it was sold for, since it was still undeveloped. Probably approximately the same price. The property in Venus was approximately $40K, because it was more acreage. I believe that the property in Venus is under his own name so that there is no distribution requirement if he sells the property. When he sold enough money to pay for the Venus property, with the help of the Sociocyberneering funds. So, he did put up a few buildings on the Venus property which would serve as his new home. But, the value of all the buildings "combined" would be under $100K because they are sort of made of metal and gunnite, as opposed to more expensive materials like bricks or lumber. So, the asking price of the land is a
little high compared to values of the surrounding acreage.
This person who wrote this nasty article knows nothing about the prices he is remarking on. He is lying about all of this. The first parcel we purchased in Venus was 10 acres for a little over $1,600 an acre. Then over the years we purchase two other contiguous parcels that adds up to a little over 21+ acres. He knows very little about building processes either because building out of concrete and steal is far more expensive and durable than brick and timber. All of the other numbers are grossly incorrect as well.
We never changed the name to The Venus Project to cover up any deals regarding the sale of the land in Naples. We changed the name long after the purchase of the land in Venus because Sociocyberneering was too difficult to pronounce for people or even to remember. This was before the word cyber was even used. The Venus Project was simple and easy.
We don't want to spend much more time on this nonsense as most of what he is saying are lies, projections and out of some other misunderstanding. He never checked his statements with us and does not even use his real name. If you listen to the Fresco's Classic Lecture Series you will see that he took that name after hearing it from Jacque, which is ironic, but we mainly wanted to make a statement as to what happened in regards to the Naples property.
Jacque and Roxanne
Roxanne Meadows said this on April 14, 2010 at 2:37 am | Reply

Anticultist blog comments continued...
http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/forum/5539/archiving-anticultist-blog-on-sp/3/#reply-499c7a84


Click to get back to topic starter

Click to get back to topic starter



Anticutlist blog comments continued...

Besides that, it's well known that chess is a "remarkable model of life" as pointed out by Garry Kasparov, the ex-world champion.
And the reason for this is explained in that book.
I hope I gave sufficient information so that you can stop disdaining TVP (not TZM), and start another round of investigations before throwing tomatoes.
I hope I made myself clear now. It's the attitude of this blog not the content that makes me not like it so much. Please don't take me wrongly, I'm not a TVP fanatic and I think I demonstrated that above. That's all I have to say and this is my last comment. I really don't have any other reason to stay here. I prefer to focus on positive and clarifying actions rather than keeping bad feelings. It's just like racism and other forms of discrimination. Publicly the people say that we should all be free from any form of discrimination but it's just words. What we need is action (Give scientific education about the human body and apply it to racism and other forms of discrimination) or else there'll always be those hidden groups that can't stand a black guy or a white guy or asian guy, etc. In the same way I advocate that you should be active, getting together, forming a movement, demanding clarifications from TZM and TVP. Active, resolute actions will most likely arrive at the logical result.
Well, it's all then. Thank you for you attention once more and I'm sorry for all the trouble I may have caused.
hangyaku said this on June 14, 2010 at 6:42 pm | Reply

Well take care now.
We are serving a public service here for providing the confronting evidence that is necessary in the scientific method.
An argument is made and a counter argument is proposeed. If the person making the original claim can not use the burden of proof to their advantage and make the argument go away via physical proofs and scientific evidence, then the original claim stands as false until otherwise.
This is the method of science, it is a negative that has to argue against the postiive to fully test its authenticity.
anticultist said this on June 14, 2010 at 6:56 pm | Reply

I was surprised to see you reply so fast to my comments and with new information that I couldn't resist coming back. This discussion is becoming very interesting as I think I've come up with probably the real nature of the problem here. You say that it's the negative that hs to argue against the positive, right? Now, what if Jacque is feeling the same way having thoughts like "I don't have to show them anything. If they want they'll come for it."? A type of ego thinking. It's not difficult to imagine considering that almost all his entire life was dedicated to designing TVP. Then you'd be quite like two magnetic bodies with equal poles facing each other. How do you think about?
hangyaku said this on June 14, 2010 at 7:14 pm | Reply

We catagorically disagree with Jacque on many points as well as have a doubt about his sincerity.
Some of his actions within business practices and his unattestable claims are our reasons. So we would probably be magnetic polar opposites in this respect.
anticultist said this on June 14, 2010 at 8:11 pm | Reply

hangyaku:
"BranManFloMore, you were not objective even if you say you were. I'm sorry but that's the truth. I recognized my errors so please recognize yours."
I pointed out your mistakes, but you didn't with mines- so I was objective. You just come off arrogant and now ignorant. Too many bruised egos from TZM & TVP it looks like. Everything else you say is repetition.
hangyaku:
"And coming to think of it, isn't TVP the only thing that REALLY matters. So what's all this thing about TZM? Go contact Jacque directly."
So you are saying that they are the only alternative? The only solution? More empty rhetoric? You make my head hurt man. I have went there before and I've seen people ask him questions- he doesn't answer them directly, instead he talks about his life story to answer questions. He's not as direct as you think.
hangyaku:
"As for the matter about Jacque being a man who solved the whole world's problems and not having any credentials, you're already assuming it's impossible and besides he never said he would solve ALL problems"
When someone claims they want to redesign culture and make RBE a global economy, then it's implied there rather you realize it or not.
hangyaku:
"RBEF and other organizations want to start now? Fine just be aware of this capitalist environment."
We'll be aware.
hangyaku:
"Anyway, I'm seeing history repeat itself and that's why I wanted you to read "Lasker's Manual of Chess" (not all of it, just the part talking about the emergence of Chess Strategy or Positional Play)."
A book that advocates competition pretty much, right? Isn't that what TZM & TVP is against? More hypocrisy I see.
"It's just like racism and other forms of discrimination. Publicly the people say that we should all be free from any form of discrimination but it's just words. What we need is action (Give scientific education about the human body and apply it to racism and other forms of discrimination) or else there'll always be those hidden groups that can't stand a black guy or a white guy or asian guy, etc."
It's not discrimination, it's people disagreeing- there's a difference, man... I hope these are your last comments. It's funny that you would use that example considering Jacque Fresco's background with the KKK.
BranManFloMore said this on June 14, 2010 at 8:35 pm | Reply

"Besides that, it's well known that chess is a "remarkable model of life" as pointed out by Garry Kasparov, the ex-world champion."
yes, i play chess, its a fine game.
"I hope I gave sufficient information so that you can stop disdaining TVP (not TZM),"
thats not possible, you aren't paying attention. We don't need more information, the information we have is absolute. And objective.
" and start another round of investigations before throwing tomatoes."
All investigations arrive at the same conclusions. You are the one
failing to investigate. We are not throwing tomatoes, we are alerting the public to an evil and scummy charlatans scam.
"I hope I made myself clear now. It's the attitude of this blog not the content that makes me not like it so much."
I agree and I have tried to point to a different way of going about things. Anticultist does a great job on most fronts and I can't tell him what to do. I'd like to see him take it up a notch.
On the other hand, with some people and some situations the only thing left to do is call shit shit and assholes assholes.
"Please don't take me wrongly, I'm not a TVP fanatic and I think I demonstrated that above. That's all I have to say and this is my last comment. I really don't have any other reason to stay here."
wisdom would give a reason that you educate yourself on the truth
of these matters.
" I prefer to focus on positive and clarifying actions rather than keeping bad feelings. It's just like racism and other forms of discrimination. Publicly the people say that we should all be free from any form of discrimination but it's just words. What we need is action (Give scientific education about the human body and apply it to racism and other forms of discrimination) or else there'll always be those hidden groups that can't stand a black guy or a white guy or asian guy, etc."
I agree, there are ways to fight that transcend the whole mess and
ways to fight that play into tit for tat bickering.
"In the same way I advocate that you should be active, getting together, forming a movement, demanding clarifications from TZM and TVP."
There is no need for clarification and they would not conform to
any such demands. Everything is very clear. They are a cult and a dangerous and evil one, and we are the ones taking them to task over it.
"Active, resolute actions will most likely arrive at the logical result.
Well, it's all then. Thank you for you attention once more and I'm sorry for all the trouble I may have caused."
Good debate is why we are here.
prometheuspan said this on June 14, 2010 at 9:41 pm | Reply

"As for the matter about Jacque being a man who solved the whole world's problems and not having any credentials, you're already assuming it's impossible "
No, we can simply observe the fact that any claims made by this
person about knowledge or problem solving are for the most part absurd. Its not assuming its impossible, its knowing what it actually takes to actually do it for real instead of 6 year old make believe style- which is all that TVP/TZM have for "saving the world."
"and besides he never said he would solve ALL problems. Anyway, I'm seeing history repeat itself and that's why I wanted you to read "Lasker's Manual of Chess" (not all of it, just the part talking about the emergence of Chess Strategy or Positional Play)."
I am an expert in game theory and play chess passibly well. I'm not going to read any more books just because you say so. If you have a systems or game theory point to make, make it. If you can't, then thats on you.
"But anyway, I'll just give a brief summary here.
Back in the 19th century, chess was played much like a game of luck. You just waited for an opportunity to checkmate the opponent's king and the game was over.
Quite in the middle of nowhere appeared a man who (after more than 30 years of work) claimed to have discovered the correct method of playing chess and that that method should guide the chess player to ALWAYS find the most efficient course of action in ANY chess position. A guy with n.o c.r.e.d.e.n.t.i.a.l.s saying that? No way that could happen. Alas, the whole w.o.r.l.d was wrong!"
Yes, that can happen.
"Even today, modern chess current scientific basis is still regarded to have been discovered by this man whose name is Wilhelm Steinitz and was the first world chess champion after beating the best players of his era. You may investigate on your own. This was just a brief summary."
Which is irrelevant to Jaques or PJ since neither of them can give
us any kind of proof over their ideals. Aside from the obvious things any high schooler should be able to get right after working the problems for a month or so, nothing they have said or done is revolutionary and in fact everything from Jaques is stolen from Buckminster fuller or the Technocrats. Hes not even an orginal thinker. The only thing he has to offer thats different is his paper models.
Hes not an extraordinary person, hes merely a charlatan and BS artist.
What real and true and good things he might have offered to the world are eclipsed by the damage thats being done to actual real change potentials or energy for a real social movement.
prometheuspan said this on June 14, 2010 at 9:48 pm | Reply

"And coming to think of it, isn't TVP the only thing that REALLY matters. So what's all this thing about TZM? Go contact Jacque directly."
I'm sorry, this idea that you have that the two are different organizations and all is a fine idea, but the simple fact of the matter is that this mess is caused at origination point by JF being a BS artist and not knowing how to direct a social movement to do anything other than listen to him and form a hierarchal system. Jaques formed a hierarchy of two organizations, one on TOP
of the other. This alone is an unforgivable error, because false hierarchy is not democracy.
Everything stems from JFs ignorance and bad judgment and trusting people who are patently evil.
Contacting him to tell him whats going on is silly. If he doesn't know by now whats really going on he would have to be making a choice to stay ignorant.
The grim reality is that hes surrounded himself with scumbag parasite charlatans. Judge people by the company they keep.
Its more than fair. It may be that JF is a great guy, a kind old
fatherly man. But that doesn't matter- the manifest reality of his social movement is an evil, dystopian nightmare- now complete even with is own secret police to match the rest of the fascism.
"Just try to tell him what's happening inside TZM and investigate if he agreed with the decisions inside TZM (if he does have any connection at all with the internal organization of TZM)."
Hes not going to listen. VTV and PJ have his ear. The whole thing would be different if some truly wise people were in his inner circle. There aren't any. In his mind PJ has brought the exposure
he always dreamed of and VTV and Thunder are his voice on the Radio. This is his public relations team. Even if he disagreed with them on some issues, hes not going to confront them or tell them to stop, and hes not going to fire them- he would rather have the fame they provide to him. Hes sold his soul to the devil.
JF is probably a fine person. VTV and Thunder are both patently evil people- period, end of discussion.
"If need be, you could all get together and start a movement for transparency inside TZM. "
And that would have as much success as any other effort. You are talking nonsense, you have no idea how much energy has already been put into trying to help them. I personally was banned and attacked and lied about for trying to help them and did not in fact break a single real rule. In fact i was banned for pointing out that VTV was actively breaking rules, and when i pointed this out both he and thunder proceeded to attack me personally with ad hominems- proving my point.
There is no hope and no chance and no point in trying to make a positive movement inside of a cult run by demonic people.
"Demand demonstrations of Jacque's concrete ideas about the RBE-cities. "
He doesn't have any concrete ideas. Its all fluff and fantasy and paper models.
I on the other hand have concrete ideas and all of this bullshit is a waste of my time- I'm the one everybody should be clustered around and working with not JF or PJ.
I can actually draw my own buildings and have the knowledge to do civil engineering level blue prints.
But i was banned from their site for pointing out that VTV was being a verbal attack artist instead of a moderator.
Nobody inside of tvp/tzm can as much as hold a candle to me. They aren't really even worth discussing or trying to help. If you want to save the world or see an RBE happen in reality, then I'm the one to work with and they are just a distraction.
"However to do that you would probably have to sign a document where you state that the information won't be made public (for copyright reasons). "
I'm willing to share all of my ideas because I have faith that I'm brilliant enough to think up more. I can think up copyrightable ideas all day long. There is no reason to play with third rate ideas from charlatan scammers when I have first rate ideas I'm willing to share for free.
"But not stay here like some sad abandoned group looking for any weak point in the enemy."
We don't have to look, its not hard to see the demon. The hard part is pointing it out to people who want to stay deceived.
"You claim that TVP is an idea that's not tested but isn't Jacque just protecting himself like he did when trademarking the term "RBE"? "
No, its not about the testing of the ideas. I have tested the ideas. Some of them are great and some of them are ludicrous. the only thing that really matters is that they treat people like shit.
All of the good ideas in the world are useless to an evil person.
"I have never seen a good attempt at investigating Jacque's work since Larry King's interview and the movie "Future By Design" and will probably not see it while we're in this capitalist world."
I'm willing to give it a go.
but not here.
"As well there are also reasons for his not constructing any RBE-city yet. RBEF and other organizations want to start now? Fine just be aware of this capitalist environment."
There are no good reasons in reality, and in reality whats seen is that hes full of excuses to do nothing and keep collecting cash.
prometheuspan said this on June 14, 2010 at 10:06 pm | Reply

Stumbling upon this blog
I have stumbled upon this blog quite by accident. I heard an interesting and compelling account by Fresco. He was speaking on his Immaculate Pig experiment. Immediately after hearing about it, I ran a search on google to see if I could somehow locate a document or clips of video validating his claims. I actually had high hopes because Fresco asked the audience in his lecture if they had heard about his experiment. So I assumed it was at least traceable somewhere. The google search turned up nothing. However, I did find it mentioned in the response on this blog site. I first read "Jacque Fresco Social Engineer" then the topic concerning the Zeitgeist movement as being a cult/conspiracists. These first two reads evoked automatic responses in me. I found myself strongly disagreeing with many of the claims and statements that I had read. However, further reading on this topic opened me up more. I must say that my perspective has shifted some as a result of the information I have encountered. Although, I take issue with some aspects. Most of these issues arise from the words of Prometheuspan.
PROMETHEUSPAN
I noticed on a separate topic you said you have 20 PhDs. I'm sure you realize how much of an extraordinary and tremendous claim that is. It is completely beyond belief to the point of absurdity. I admit, I am open minded and will consider almost any claim despite its absurdity, but I am having trouble here. I hope you can understand the location of my point of view. I am unfamiliar with you from the online forums and if you have substantiated your claim somewhere then I commend you. But as of now, with my lack of knowing, I hope you can provide me evidence of some type. Do you have dissertations available? Any other documented works by you or a third party? It would be nice to know.
That is the first obvious issue. The second is related to the first. In the midst of my skepticism of your credentials, throughout my reading I have tried to see if I can sense the scholarly sheen you claim to have. In reading your responses I must say I am disappointed in my expectation of a 21st century polymath such as yourself. I am disappointed in the way you lay your emotions into your statements. From my experience, these tendencies are seldom found in a cool headed sophisticate. (I realize the variance in people, but I am legitimately surprised here.) I am also having a hard time believing that you are a high level new age thinker when you use phrases such as "original thinker" and "Proof of their ideas" and "evil." You should know the ambiguity and vagueness that the notion "original" creates. Also, who really gives meaning to the word "evil" anymore besides joesmoes who live by an obsolete philosophy (religion)? I can't think of a more outdated empty word. I would think you also realize the impossibility of "proof." Any scientist will offer you evidence in its place. Seriously? WTF? "A cult run by demonic people" are you fucking kidding me? Please let it be strictly for humor's sake. Through much of this topic I have gravitated to this blog, but reading you near the end has actually turned me away from this blog again.
Some people on here seem great and decent. But Prometheusspan touches my nerves. You sound like a megalomaniac talking about how qualified and brilliant you are, giving grandiose descriptions of yourself. It makes you sound arrogant, full of shit, and unhinged. The main point is, from how you express yourself, I find it hard to believe you. You do not seem to express sentiments of a polished intellectual. It sounds like a highschooler living a lie on the internet. I'm not trying to insult you. These really are feelings that I am having.
It's hard to believe that you would be found here. I don't mean for this to be an ad hominem circumstantial, but I am sincerely concerned and curious about you. I imagine some of this has been offensive to you. I am simply stating thoughts that I have come to contemplate. If you turn out to be who you say you are, then I apologize and retract any insulting statements I have made and will make. Consider them to have been birthed by my inconvenient ignorance and subjective judgment.
Anyways onto your criticisms of Fresco.
You have three main criticisms
Fresco is an idea thief.
Fresco is unqualified.
Fresco's motives are dubious.
I give some veracity to the logic you are following in some of your criticisms. There does seem to be some compelling evidence in your favor. But you tend to stretch your assumptions and accusations way to far.
First, Fresco is an idea thief.
I am in most disagreement with you here more than with anything else. Exactly what do you mean by he "steals" ideas from other people? The same way America stole the idea of democracy from the Greeks? Is that what you mean? The same way all aeronautical engineers today are stealing the technical ideas of the Wright Brothers? That kind of stealing? I sincerely cannot believe that you think this way. It is completely substandard thinking at your claimed level of intellectual competence.
Fresco stresses a self evident fact: all knowledge is serial. But you may agree with me here and rather get more specific with Fresco's idea thievery. I read (I believe it was you) on another topic the statement that Fresco stole the ideas of B.F. Skinner and used those ideas in his Immaculate Pig experiment and in other ways. The same way B.F. Skinner stole ideas from John B. Watson? And the same way John B. Watson stole ideas from Pavlov? They are handling scientific ideas! You don't see scientists in the scientific community bickering over who's ideas are who's. The result would be stagnation. They make a discovery, and the ideas that derive are passed on to others on a right to know basis.
You might also mention Buckminster Fuller. Rather we can say Fresco "stole" Fuller's ideas or not, we must first realize that in Fuller's work, he has reached logical conclusions about the human condition. Therefore the possibility is open for others to reach the same logical conclusions. Taking that into account, we can realize how minuscule your criticism is. But sure, without a doubt, Fresco was influenced by Fuller. But it's not stealing. Only an angry, aggressive, intolerant, abusive person would make such a dishonest, ridiculous, empty claim.
You have also said that Fresco pretends like he is the originator of the ideas he gives. This is an absurd accusation. I don't know how many times I've heard Roxanne say "not all of these ideas are Jacque's, but what Jacque has attempted to do is design a plan of action and not just talk about it" (paraphrase). Additionally, his reading list is evidence in his favor. He's not trying to hide anything. He simply has the mindset that ideas are public substances that should be accessible to anyone and better off handled separately from the names with which they were originally associated. Associating ideas with names creates cults and ideological mindlocks (as we are seeing with TVP and TZM).
This point of criticism you give, further defies your claim of scholarly intellectual elevation, because it is fundamentally an unintelligent argument-accusation.
Next, Fresco is unqualified.
I think people are a little too emphatic with their criticisms here. I realize the need for some sort of documented credibility. It would be chaos without it. However, I don't completely rule out his claimed studies. My judgment and certainty is currently suspended regarding his history of accomplishments. I'm currently reviewing the articles written about him through the years and comparing the claims he has made and his endeavors that are detailed. I have found some things that would support your criticism, such as his claims to have doctorates in a few fields (psychology for one) from an obscure school that doesn't exist anymore. And the fact that he came under attack a few decades ago regarding his questionable credentials. (Despite all of this, I can sense justifications for it all, as complicated as they may be.) Furthermore, there ARE big problems with academia and credentialism. And there are brilliant people without credentials. But discerning who is who is nearly impossible, especially over the internet (such things must be investigated in person for the eye to inspect the inexpressible subtleties of intelligence). It's a difficult issue through and through. But my certainty is still suspended. There was certainly something to Fresco when he was younger.
Less related to your criticism, I see much of the criticism as being temporal. Fresco has simply gained more notoriety at a bad time. Perhaps if he was forty years younger, people would have less to criticize. The fact is, he's an oldman and an easy target as a result. You can see the cognitive feebleness he carries with him. His age has locked him into delivering a pitch. He delivers the same redundant anecdotes and explanations, just like I see my grandpa doing. However, when he was younger he was much more dynamic, detailed, and expressive with his explanatory language. I am most impressed with what I have discovered in him in his younger days (the little there is available to review). His old age is his major downfall at this point. Does no one else see that? I see it as a central issue here.
Third, Fresco's motives are dubious.
I have a hard time thinking he is pulling a sham. Things can easily be contorted to be interpreted that way, but let's leave that to the conspiracy theorists, whom ironically you categorize as most of the Zeitgeist members, even though you are developing your own conspiracy theory about Fresco. As far as the misconduct at the TZM forums, everyone here sounds like a bunch of unhinged conspiracy theorists. Interesting how possible truths can sound like conspiracies. That is because anything can take on that shade. Conspiracy accusations are on a swivel. Some are true conspiracies, some aren't. Some are simply oblivious developments that get interpreted erroneously.
I have more to say (mostly on the more positive side), but I'll stop here for now. I am not exactly in defense of him. I clearly recognize many of the issues that have been discussed on this blog. But I do sense an abusive bias here (primarily from Prometheuspan) and I can't help but speak on it.
Nate said this on June 16, 2010 at 10:34 am | Reply

hmm conspiracy theorists usually make things up with coincidence and no facts. Conspiracies [which are real] are not conspiracy theories they are two different things.
There is link to a blog discussing this on the right.
Regarding your point 3 have you checked out the venus project is not just non profit ?
anticultist said this on June 16, 2010 at 12:16 pm | Reply

"PROMETHEUSPAN
I noticed on a separate topic you said you have 20 PhDs. I'm sure you realize how much of an extraordinary and tremendous claim that is."
I have specifically claimed to have knowledge equal to that, not
the actual degrees.
I'm an autodidactic speed reader.
"It is completely beyond belief to the point of absurdity. I admit, I am open minded and will consider almost any claim despite its absurdity, but I am having trouble here."
Its as easy to prove as clicking on my name and starting in on a design process with me. If you take the time for right action you will find that I easily prove this every day all day.
"I hope you can understand the location of my point of view. I am unfamiliar with you from the online forums and if you have substantiated your claim somewhere then I commend you."
Follow the links. Any depth perusal of RBEF will more than make
the point.
"But as of now, with my lack of knowing, I hope you can provide me evidence of some type."
Follow the name. Click the link.
"Do you have dissertations available?"
yes, you can also google me, I'm all over the net.
"Any other documented works by you or a third party? It would be nice to know.
That is the first obvious issue. The second is related to the first. In the midst of my skepticism of your credentials, throughout my reading I have tried to see if I can sense the scholarly sheen you claim to have. In reading your responses I must say I am disappointed in my expectation of a 21st century polymath such as yourself."
I'm not really concerned over that.
"I am disappointed in the way you lay your emotions into your statements. From my experience, these tendencies are seldom found in a cool headed sophisticate. "
My use of emotional language does not make me emotional, it means that i find ways to use emotional subtxt to communicate where a more longwinded response would make people groan.
people relate to emotions and emotional subtext, its merely a way
of adding more content in a smaller space.
I'm not here to be square for you. I practiced being a vulcan when i was a pre-teenager. I can be quite good at it.
"(I realize the variance in people, but I am legitimately surprised here.) I am also having a hard time believing that you are a high level new age thinker when you use phrases such as "original thinker" and "Proof of their ideas" and "evil."
I'm not sure what your problem is. Evil is whats against life, change, progress, human evolution, and etc. VTV and Thunder are patently evil people. A lot of people have a problem with that,
and thats why I use those terms. It can not be stated bluntly enough. They are evil people. They are manipulators, con artists,
ad hominem junkies, parasites, obstacles to real change, abusive,
evil people.
"You should know the ambiguity and vagueness that the notion "original" creates. Also, who really gives meaning to the word "evil" anymore besides joesmoes who live by an obsolete philosophy (religion)?"
Sociology and Psychology both use the term when the situation calls for it, and have scientific definitions they have created.
"I can't think of a more outdated empty word. I would think you also realize the impossibility of "proof." Any scientist will offer you evidence in its place. Seriously? WTF? "A cult run by demonic people" are you fucking kidding me?"
Not at all. There is no language to properly wake people up to the actual reality. VTV and Thunder are Demonic people.
"Please let it be strictly for humor's sake."
No, the point should and must be made. Those people are evil and demonic people. Period. They make 20 new victims every week, the net result of them existing is that the world drifts deeper into entropy and chaos. They have taken a potentially good thing and corrupted it into just another evil scummy con game.
"Through much of this topic I have gravitated to this blog, but reading you near the end has actually turned me away from this blog again."
Thats your reactive mind. Not my problem.
"Some people on here seem great and decent. But Prometheusspan touches my nerves."
Good, thats the idea.
" You sound like a megalomaniac talking about how qualified and brilliant you are, giving grandiose descriptions of yourself. "
I tried humility and it got me banned. If we are going to make comparisons, then the comparisons should be real. Compared to me
all of TZM an PJ and Jaques are children playing make believe with paper models. The leadership of the cult under PJ is a leadership
of evil and demonic people.
I think PJ and Jaques are probably over all fine people. Too bad they allow such people to ruin everything.
"It makes you sound arrogant, full of shit, and unhinged."
I'm fine with that if people wake up and smell reality once in while because i drive the point home.
"The main point is, from how you express yourself, I find it hard to believe you."
I don't ask for belief. You can click the link or not. I quit belief when i was 8 years old, I am a man of right action. If you are a man of right action then leave the blog of mere pointing out evil basterds to be evil basterds and click my name, and then we can work together and do what needs to be done to save the humans.
"You do not seem to express sentiments of a polished intellectual."
I'm not here to wear a suit and tie for you.
"It sounds like a highschooler living a lie on the internet."
Thats your own reactive mind- not me- again.
"I'm not trying to insult you. "
Good, i hate to count ad hominems.
"These really are feelings that I am having.
It's hard to believe that you would be found here. I don't mean for this to be an ad hominem circumstantial, but I am sincerely concerned and curious about you. "
I'm often amazed that I'm here as well. Anticultist and I don't agree on everything, including approach to solving TVP.TZM as a problem. This isn't my style. But I decided to allow this site to absorb most of my ...dark side work, rather than pollute other efforts elsewhere.
"I imagine some of this has been offensive to you."
Not yet.
"I am simply stating thoughts that I have come to contemplate. If you turn out to be who you say you are, then I apologize and retract any insulting statements I have made and will make. "
No need for that.
"Consider them to have been birthed by my inconvenient ignorance and subjective judgment.
Anyways onto your criticisms of Fresco.
You have three main criticisms
Fresco is an idea thief.
Fresco is unqualified.
Fresco's motives are dubious.
I give some veracity to the logic you are following in some of your criticisms. There does seem to be some compelling evidence in your favor. But you tend to stretch your assumptions and accusations way to far.
First, Fresco is an idea thief.
I am in most disagreement with you here more than with anything else. Exactly what do you mean by he "steals" ideas from other people? "
Look, I have been saving the humans for close to 40 years now. Full time. This whole TVP cult is a flash in the pan compared to Bill Mollison or Buckminster Fuller or etc. When a person is familiar with the other visionaries and other movements then they have a window on which to see how ideas evolve from place to place and group to group and person to person.
You don't have that kind of window, so you don't have the perspective. I do. nothing Jaques has proposed has been anywhere near original, at least not for 40 years or so.
Even his patents were late and mirror patents by others for similar devices.
"The same way America stole the idea of democracy from the Greeks? Is that what you mean? The same way all aeronautical engineers today are stealing the technical ideas of the Wright Brothers? "
I don't have any problem with stealing all of the good ideas from everyone you can. In fact thats what I do. But trying to pretend that they are original ideas when they aren't is lying to the public.
I credit maslow or pavlov or B Fuller or Bill Mollison. I don't pretend to be better than all of them by saying I never heard of them and using their ideas.
"That kind of stealing? I sincerely cannot believe that you think this way. "
Thats good, because i don't think the way you painted it.
"It is completely substandard thinking at your claimed level of intellectual competence.
Fresco stresses a self evident fact: all knowledge is serial. But you may agree with me here and rather get more specific with Fresco's idea thievery. I read (I believe it was you) on another topic the statement that Fresco stole the ideas of B.F. Skinner and used those ideas in his Immaculate Pig experiment and in other ways. The same way B.F. Skinner stole ideas from John B. Watson?"
No, that wasn't me. But its probably true.
Idea theft only becomes wrong when you fail to credit the original source.
"And the same way John B. Watson stole ideas from Pavlov? They are handling scientific ideas! You don't see scientists in the scientific community bickering over who's ideas are who's."
Yes you do.
"The result would be stagnation."
Very good. But. The result IS stagnation.
"They make a discovery, and the ideas that derive are passed on to others on a right to know basis.
You might also mention Buckminster Fuller. Rather we can say Fresco "stole" Fuller's ideas or not, we must first realize that in Fuller's work, he has reached logical conclusions about the human condition. Therefore the possibility is open for others to reach the same logical conclusions."
Which is also fine, but thats not how Fresco did it. Any student of his life can find that in truth he got all of these ideas from the Technocrats.
"Taking that into account, we can realize how minuscule your criticism is."
Again, Jaques is so ignorant that he stole ideas from the technocrats and didn't even think to make sure whos ideas he was stealing. They aren't his ideas and he doesn't credit others, probably because hes clueless about who thoe original people were.
"But sure, without a doubt, Fresco was influenced by Fuller. But it's not stealing. Only an angry, aggressive, intolerant, abusive person would make such a dishonest, ridiculous, empty claim."
Its stealing if you don't credit them. If you do credit them its called research. The difference may seem easy to wobble, but there is a very fine and very exacting line and Jaques has crossed it.
"You have also said that Fresco pretends like he is the originator of the ideas he gives. This is an absurd accusation. I don't know how many times I've heard Roxanne say "not all of these ideas are Jacque's, but what Jacque has attempted to do is design a plan of action and not just talk about it" (paraphrase)."
Thats fine, but again, they don't even know who to credit.
"Additionally, his reading list is evidence in his favor. He's not trying to hide anything. He simply has the mindset that ideas are public substances that should be accessible to anyone and better off handled separately from the names with which they were originally associated."
Again. Taking an idea and using it is fine. Taking an idea and failing to credit the idea is not.
I also tend to do this a lot in my own thinking. There are a lot of psychologists whose theories I use but names I don't remember. I'd look them up If I was going to discuss those ideas, not try
to pretend.
"Associating ideas with names creates cults and ideological mindlocks (as we are seeing with TVP and TZM).
This point of criticism you give, further defies your claim of scholarly intellectual elevation, because it is fundamentally an unintelligent argument-accusation."
The reality is that Jaques and PJ are ignorant people who steal ideas from other people and pretend them to be their own.
Thats not unintelligent, its a simple statement of cold hard fact.
"Next, Fresco is unqualified.
I think people are a little too emphatic with their criticisms here. I realize the need for some sort of documented credibility. It would be chaos without it. However, I don't completely rule out his claimed studies."
I can, because once you have knowledge there are mistakes real education wouldn't allow you to make.
Jaques playing psychohistorian for instance is a joke.
Or systems theorist. Or games theorist.
What he knows is civil engineering and energy science.
Anything he has to say on those other topics is no more meaningful
than what any layperson has to say on such topics.
"My judgment and certainty is currently suspended regarding his history of accomplishments. I'm currently reviewing the articles written about him through the years and comparing the claims he has made and his endeavors that are detailed. I have found some things that would support your criticism, such as his claims to have doctorates in a few fields (psychology for one) from an obscure school that doesn't exist anymore. And the fact that he came under attack a few decades ago regarding his questionable credentials. "
I only claim virtual credentials. I won't fault anyone for claiming virtual credentials unless they are lying. I will also fault them for claiming real credentials they don't have.
Jaques does both.
"(Despite all of this, I can sense justifications for it all, as complicated as they may be.) Furthermore, there ARE big problems with academia and credentialism. And there are brilliant people without credentials. But discerning who is who is nearly impossible, "
At this rate in this form of communication and using this modus operandi for communicating, thats true. Or, you can test the reality of it by clicking on my name and working a path of right action- which is something that Jaques is not capable of doing.
"especially over the internet (such things must be investigated in person for the eye to inspect the inexpressible subtleties of intelligence). It's a difficult issue through and through. But my certainty is still suspended. There was certainly something to Fresco when he was younger."
I'm sure hes a swell Guy and we would get along fine if he didn't have evil parasites attached to him.
"Less related to your criticism, I see much of the criticism as being temporal. Fresco has simply gained more notoriety at a bad time. Perhaps if he was forty years younger, people would have less to criticize. The fact is, he's an oldman and an easy target as a result."
Thats true but not my issue nor my problem.
Its also true on the other hand that they milk it as him being a wizened old geezer.
"You can see the cognitive feebleness he carries with him. His age has locked him into delivering a pitch. He delivers the same redundant anecdotes and explanations, just like I see my grandpa doing. "
BINGO
"However, when he was younger he was much more dynamic, detailed, and expressive with his explanatory language. I am most impressed with what I have discovered in him in his younger days (the little there is available to review). His old age is his major downfall at this point. Does no one else see that? I see it as a central issue here."
Its an issue certainly,...
I'm certainly aware of it.
"Third, Fresco's motives are dubious.
I have a hard time thinking he is pulling a sham. Things can easily be contorted to be interpreted that way, but let's leave that to the conspiracy theorists, whom ironically you categorize as most of the Zeitgeist members, even though you are developing your own conspiracy theory about Fresco."
For the record I also think 911 was an inside job and the the government assassinated kennedy. A conspiracy theory is not a bad thing if its backed by the evidence.
"As far as the misconduct at the TZM forums, everyone here sounds like a bunch of unhinged conspiracy theorists."
okay, I'm starting to chaffe at your communication choices.
"Interesting how possible truths can sound like conspiracies. That is because anything can take on that shade. Conspiracy accusations are on a swivel. Some are true conspiracies, some aren't. Some are simply oblivious developments that get interpreted erroneously."
yes, and most conspiracy theories as such are bunk. But not all.
"I have more to say (mostly on the more positive side), but I'll stop here for now. I am not exactly in defense of him. I clearly recognize many of the issues that have been discussed on this blog. But I do sense an abusive bias here (primarily from Prometheuspan) and I can't help but speak on it."
lol.
prometheuspan said this on June 16, 2010 at 11:24 pm | Reply

what I find interesting prom is this guy accuses you of having emotional subtext and disputes your scholarly wisdom due to the inherent use of emotional content. Then not many paragraphs below this he is then using the very same emotionally charged subtext and curse words himself, as if to debunk his own point and his own academic veracity [clearly he did not follow his own guidelines to observing intelligent scholars].
Me personally I dont give a shit if someone swears it does not indicate any level of intelligence at all. The content is what indicates the intelligence.
anticultist said this on June 16, 2010 at 11:36 pm | Reply

I don't claim to have 20 PhDs. Like I said, I realize the variance in people and their capacity to not seem as they are.
Bear in mind that I did not argue against the use of emotion, I argued against the way it was used (i.e. using emotionally charged words such as "evil" and "demonic"). I realize the impact those words have, but to many people, that kind of terminology sparks doubt, because those words are often used for less sophisticated purposes. (It reminds of people throwing around words such as communist, fascist, etc., that kind of empty rhetoric.) All I'm saying is the degree of emotion (and its combination with ridiculous words) was too unjustified in my mind. That is why he received the response he got.
Nate said this on June 17, 2010 at 1:54 am

Fair enough Nate I am sure prometheus is a big enough man to accept it too.
anticultist said this on June 17, 2010 at 2:20 am

"Look, I have been saving the humans for close to 40 years now. Full time."
Why can't I get over this statement?
"nothing Jaques has proposed has been anywhere near original, at least not for 40 years or so."
Why does it have to be original? This isn't art.
"Again, Jaques is so ignorant that he stole ideas from the technocrats and didn't even think to make sure whos ideas he was stealing. They aren't his ideas and he doesn't credit others, probably because hes clueless about who thoe original people were."
I assume you mean he doesn't give credit in his own literature? If that's what you're saying, then yeah, that is a problem and a major fault of his.
"The reality is that Jaques and PJ are ignorant people who steal ideas from other people and pretend them to be their own."
I don't know about that. PJ cites a lot of sources in a more academic way (sort of). Fresco was just too goal-driven to care about the academic process. It's slightly understandable.
"I will also fault them for claiming real credentials they don't have."
Again, it might be slightly understandable. I would guess that he did this to gain entry into respected academic circles. Of course it didn't really work. He's not a good researcher, but he is a great conveyer of ideas (in his early days). That deserves just as much respect.
Nate said this on June 17, 2010 at 2:21 am | Reply

Peter Joseph is not a good researcher either if he has people (admitting to hire) doing the research for him for the director's cut from his first film. But you know, the films are not the movement [sarcasm]. If anyone has empty rhetoric, it's definitely TZM- hands down.
Someone that lectures should do good research before lecturing, if they can't- then they are not good conveyers to begin with because they are conveying generalizations. You have to be a good researcher in order speak on such information like this. For you to admit that he's not a good researcher when he is a futurists just shook me up there. And you know... I can see the novelty debate coming along here and it's going to be a waste of my time, but I have been there and Jacque Fresco has books everywhere. And I have seen the difference between his booklist now and what he use to have in the past as recommended reading. So people will speculate and because of that, I see why people question if these type of actions have taken place. Check out the ES blog and you'll see what I mean:
http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/04/14/tvp-ex-1970-1980s-member-speaks
BranManFloMore said this on June 17, 2010 at 2:41 am

yes, i did notice the hypocrisy. No, I wasn't going to comment, since i figured that would be redundant.
I try to bear in mind what things look like to third parties. I think any third party is going to see this guy raise a bar and then stumble into it, instead of jumping over it.
Whats funny is that to you and me both, it doesn't matter. Language is a tool I use and I reserve the right to use that tool
to communicate how i see fit.
I extend that right to others, including others who may wish to exercise it to argue against me.
Over all, its a passable attempt with content at making an argument.
It just doesn't actually score, because from square one it falls prey to failing to live up to its own projected standards.
:)
prometheuspan said this on June 16, 2010 at 11:46 pm | Reply

"Again, it might be slightly understandable. "
overall as i have said, I have little argument with Jaques or PJ.
They are transparent to me, and they mean well whilst having human foibles.
VTV and Thunder and Azzie on the other hand are simply evil people.
the end.
Now, how do we get from well intentioned Jaques or PJ to these evil people?
Well, the answer has to be at least somewhat that PJ is so incompetent that he can't tell whats what and whos who.
That is his fault.
If I could sit down with him or Jaques, I am sure we could all come away with a great game plan to save the world.
But I can't, because between me and them are these evil "flappers".
It makes no difference how well intentioned people are if their movement as a matter of fact only actually harms other people and any chance for social evolution and change.
I have plenty of sympathy for Jaques claiming education he doesn't have. I'm ten times more tempted for good reasons than he is.
But unlike him I know that in todays world you can't get away with those kinds of lies.
I tell the whole truth and nothing but.
(I like to think I'm also just more ethical, but, on the other hand I have been tempted on occasion.)
I have all sorts of sympathy for that- for knowing you know what you know and wanting to get people to listen and then finding they
won't unless your credentialed. Yes, thats harsh.
I feel for them. But I also know whats up.
and tvp/tzm is thus a cult, not a social movement, because it can't move, and its anti social.
I'd love to help them fix that problem and I did try to help them.
I banned for pointing out that VTV was attacking "Jeremy."
The end.
Now I have to get up and over this obstacle in order to get real change and real social evolution going.
prometheuspan said this on June 17, 2010 at 4:23 am | Reply

all you need do is forget them crooks and go see peter whitlock channel where the solution is 100% free and all you need do is learn then help have them built anywhere on the planet! You will find many rich people willing to fund the materials as part of the "great repent" Yu can ask right strait out for a millionaire or billionaire to step forth and one will... you just build and they fell they are not being cheated and same for you. learn the keys to the seals and use them and your glory will be in the history books.ignore You will find that to ask the world to build my cities will get responses fast and efficient because they too want to save lives and make stable any population anywhere!
Prophecy say i won in advance...just build what I say...i am the real Peter with the real seals and real keys to them...do as i say and be a hero! Follow them and be a zero, a victim!
Peter said this on September 11, 2010 at 8:01 am | Reply

sorry about the type o's..too sleepy
Peter said this on September 11, 2010 at 8:04 am

[...] Earth 2 movie Fails [ For the Venus Project] and creators cut Fresco loose ! [...]
Zeitgeist Blogs: Zeitgeist is a Mind Heist « Zeitgeist Movement Exposed said this on November 10, 2010 at 9:12 pm | Reply

a thoughtful article.
the New World Order has you... said this on April 20, 2011 at 4:21 am | Reply

Click to get back to topic starter

Click to get back to topic starter


TVP ex 1970-1980's member speaks April.14.2010 34 52

http://web.archive.org/web/20121025054824/http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/04/14/tvp-ex-1970-1980s-member-speaks/


I have compiled all these comments made by Euripide Sneed from the Earth 2 blog, where they appeared here and gave us an insight into what it was like being a member during the 1970′s-1980′s, this is for ease of reading. More comments and information may very well arrive, and be added should they feel the inclination.

Welcome to the club. Literally hundreds of people gave their blood, sweat and tears, since the 1960's, to help make Fresco's dream possible. Once these followers are parted with their money, their services are no longer required, and they are dumped, and he leaves town. Marxism (by any other name)cannot tolerate spiritual beliefs, because you need to break a few eggs to make an Omelette. Just ask Pol Pot or Fidel Castro. Ask Fresco where the money came from to purchase the Venus Property in the first place. And what happened to the investors who never got their money back. Fresco's favorite line is "The Venus project IS NOT a DEMOCRACY". It's his way or the highway. Imagine if he was in a position of power where he could "really" do some damage! It's great being an avowed Atheist, morality is "relative" regardless of who is hurt in the process. The rules of morality are made up as you go along. That being said, his reading list is still well worth looking at, artistic drawings have their limitations without foundational information.

In reference to your question, I don't want to elaborate to the point that it sounds like I want to bash Fresco. Because, in fact, there are many worse people in this world. And, he lives a life of frugalness, having survived the depression. So, those of us who invested in his projects do not have the interest in ever taking him to court, because he has been and always will be a "grandfather" figure to us. That being said, "fool me twice, shame on ME". He doesn't solicit money from people to buy fancy cars (as do some religious leaders), almost ALL the money he receives goes back into his art work, and toy models. So, under the circumstances, I gave him a "pass" for his actions, a long time ago, and in fact learned a lot from his various lectures. I learned to think straight, and corrected many of my metaphysical "assumptions" about the universe. But, like many eccentric "creative types", he has a sort of tunnel vision when it comes to remembering who his friends and supporters are. You're IN today, OUT tomorrow!

In the 1970s he was having regular membership meetings at his home in Miami. With a weekly group of maybe 10 to 12 followers. Up until then, everything was only on paper, with "nothing" to show the rest of the "non-believing" world. So, the group (called Sociocyberneering at the time) signed an agreement to purchase some land (near Miami where they all lived) and they agreed to make regular monthly payments until the land was paid off. It would take several years to complete the payoff. The group had the vision to "live the dream" in their own little dome community. The community was to be self-sustaining with agriculture and other manufacturing products Fresco had designs for. They even donated funds for some small dome molds, which could be used for acquiring government grants. The group made regular payments, many of them making only minimum wage (most of members were low income, well meaning do-gooders). Whatever it took to make the monthly payments was done, even if it meant skipping a few meals a week. The goal was to show the world "what is possible with futuristic science on your side".

One day, without discussion, the land that was purchased was sold. A new "legal entity" was created in the middle of nowhere (Venus), so that the investors would not be able to live there and commute to work at the same time. The new entity was called the "Venus Project". The proceeds from the sold land was "funneled" into this new entity. The original investors in Sociocyberneering would have no "standing" or voting rights in the new entity. There was no other reason to change legal entities except to protect the funds from those who had built up the fund. If the goal was just to locate a nicer neighborhood, the Sociocyberneering entity could have continued to have control and voting rights of the new land. But, not so if you "dissolve" (under the attorney's advice) the first entity, and create a second entity. Those members who were upset about this surprise move were assured that they were still welcome to "visit" the new entity and new land "anytime" they wanted to. But, they would have NO voting privileges as to how the money would be spent with the new entity. In the beginning, the 2 hour drive from Miami was tolerated, just to "visit" the new property. But, in the end, most of the investors cut their losses, and stopped contributing further, and said goodbye to any money they had deposited. The bottom line is that we are talking about events that happened over 30 years ago. Some of the members of the time are no longer alive. Most have all lost contact with each other. But, it is safe to say, in spite of all the financial disappointment that happened, most if not all the former members would like to see Fresco succeed. BUT, they prefer to admire him from "afar", in the same way you can watch and enjoy a "Kung Fu" demonstration on stage, without having to jump on stage in the middle of all the "Kung-Pow" and get kicked by a "well meaning" performer. I would recommend anyone who has not heard any of his lectures to do so. He is one of the best of what he does, namely, explaining "systems approach" methodology to those students who never heard of the phrase. And also he helps people understand "TEC" (total enclosure) systems, as found on cruise ships, and applied to small futuristic communities. I'm sorry I have no other specific details about what happened 30 years ago. I am a strong believer that people should "experience him" directly, on their own terms, and determine yourself what he is or "is not" in terms of his personal behavior. I was particularly moved by your "experience" at the beginning of this blog, and how your well meaning words just "bounced off" him. But, to be honest, if I were to meet Einstein in person, I can't guarantee that he would be any easier to deal with on a "human" level. "Uncommon people" many times cannot relate to us "common people", and maybe it has always been that way.....

As far as Venus Project is concerned, there is no voting membership that I know of. Just Jacque. That was the main advantage of dissolving Sociocyberneering, no more "votes" to contend with.

In reference to your other point about forgiveness, I must confess that I WAS distressed while it was all happening, and it DID take several years to cool down. The same is true for the other members. It is "not" his goal to bite the hand that feeds him, it just happens with him "naturally" out of habit. He is focused on the goal, and not the intricacies of "give and take" which is all a part of working with a team. He works best when he is alone, period. He just wants someone to hand him a billion dollars and "shut up", and not ask any questions. Consequently, none of the multiple millionaires who were introduced to him in the past, by some of his supporters, were interested or enticed to "buy in" to an "offer/relationship" like that. It's almost funny that he seems "surprised" that no one in a position of responsibility wants to just "dump" a bag of money on his lap, with no questions asked. We try to explain to him that this only happens in the movies, but he is never amused by this observation. Anyway, keep up the good work, and I will enjoy reading your updates in the future...

There never was any classroom. People sat on a couch in his living room at the peak of the membership in Miami. Over half the pictures in the video, including classrooms, is "stock video" that the film maker took from some video library. The people you list were all volunteers who tried to contribute to his cause at one time or another. They come and go like a revolving door. They come in "excited" and "inspired", and leave "despondent", knowing that the organization is about teaching, but not necessarily about "team work" and "doing". It has always been a one man show, and always will be. I compare it with "grade school". It's a "crucial" experience towards teaching us the 3 "R"s, it prepares us for the real world or college, but the course is fixed and limited. You will never learn Calculus, Chemistry or Physics there. It's a nice place to visit, "but I wouldn't want to live there" as the old saying goes. But, I must stress that it is up to the individual, to decide when they have had enough. Some people have had enough after 1 lecture, others continued to learn for several years before leaving. 90% of the lecture content has not changed since the 1950's. And that's OK. That's what grade school is about. Should we stop teaching basic math in grade school simply because it was taught 100 years ago? No, children still need to learn 1+1 before they move on to Calculus. We can't start children on Calculus (at least, not with current technology). We need Fresco to pull us out of the "mental mud" that society exposes us to as children, in that he teaches us to think more clearly, with our "brains full of mush". BUT, then that moment must come, and only "you" will know when that time "is", and you are told "time for you to leave" (either by Fresco, or your inner voice)....

for many adult minds, there is no lightning bolt listening to Fresco. Fresco's entire "lecture circuit" is a combination of several influences in his life: The (ancient) movie "The shape of things to come" (Wells), The Technocracy Movement, The works of BF Skinner, The works of Buckminister Fuller (modified by Monolithic Dome concepts), and books such as Tyranny of Words, The Natural History of Nonsense, Science & Sanity, Mechanistic Conception of Life, Pavlov, Prefabrication theory using space age plastics, and finally "Engineers & Price System" (Veblin). There are 100 more books, but these are the core concepts of his lecture circuit. Many students graduating high school today or in College will probably "never" read most of these books in their life time. And they probably have no desire to. So, a lecture from Fresco puts all these concepts together in just a few hours. But, I agree, it is best to read the books directly if you have the time.

The property near Miami was was purchased for approximately $16,000, which was a lot of money in the 70's, when people were trying to live on minimum wage. I don't know how much it was sold for, since it was still undeveloped. Probably approximately the same price. The property in Venus was approximately $40K, because it was more acreage. I believe that the property in Venus is under his own name so that there is no distribution requirement if he sells the property. When he sold his home in Miami for over $100K (or maybe $150K?), there was enough money to pay for the Venus property, with the help of the Sociocyberneering funds. So, he did put up a few buildings on the Venus property which would serve as his new home. But, the value of all the buildings "combined" would be under $100K because they are sort of made of metal and gunnite, as opposed to more expensive materials like bricks or lumber. So, the asking price of the land is a little high compared to values of the surrounding acreage. Yes, I had read someplace that some politicians in Ecuador invited them to live there at their own expense, and maybe help with tourism. It is possible they may have even offered him a grant to build some safer housing that could survive disasters of weather or earth quakes. But, I've been out of the loop for many decades.

The housing prices in Miami have always been higher than the "Florida" average. There is a lot of unused land in Florida. A chart of "Miami" that only goes back 20 years gives a closer approximation, as follows: http://mysite.verizon.net/vodkajim/housingbubble/miami.html

The home was actually a 2 bedroom, in a borderline neighborhood. It needs to be understood that he never "made it big" doing what he does. He mostly was, and is, unemployed. His income from giving lectures at his home was only $10-$20 per lecture, 2 or 3 times a week. Roxanne, being an unemployed art major, helped a little with the rent. But, no, I don't envy his current financial status. This recent "lecture circuit" is probably more lucrative than anything he has done before. But, I have NO idea what his going rate is these days to be a "guest speaker", plus per diem? But, it definitely helps to pay the bills, compared to what he was making doing "odd jobs". Now, if he actually gets $700K for that land, I will change my opinion about him being poor. That would make a nice nest egg. But, I think the actual value might be closer to $200K-$300K, if they can get that much.

Id say that they are doing OK, since the land is already paid for with no mortgage.

It was very common to bring a tape recorder to the lectures. Sometimes 1 person would bring one. Other times several people would bring one. Admission varied between $1 per lecture session to $3 per lecture session depending on what year it was. In the 70's it was $1 per session, in the 80's it was $2-$3 per session. It was affordable to most people, and if they couldn't afford it, they could attend any way for free. Part of the fun was just meeting some of the other attendees after the session, and going to a restaurant for a snack. I haven't heard the quality of the sound, but normally the microphone was only a few feet away, since it was in a small living room (informal). If the price is high, you may be able to get a used copy on eBay for a few dollars. The lectures are well worth listening to if you never heard them. Especially if you don't want to read the hundreds of books that some of the information is extracted from. The problems came when we started to invest in the "futuristic commune", living like Captain Kirk, with beds that make themselves, and robots that would plant the crops, harvest the crops, and using only organic pest control and fertilizers. In those days organic foods were expensive, so it would be great to get it at a low cost through automation. Star Trek was big in those days, and most of us would pay anything to live that life style immediately, rather than wait 100 years when the rest of the society would have it. But, it wasn't meant to be, as you know....

Some of my statements were tongue in cheek. I definitely wasn't there in the beginning. Just mid-seventies forward. He began many of his public lectures in the 60's. I'm not really worried about his return to public speaking. I believe it is a temporary thing. Eventually, things will gradually begin to implode as the lecture audience begins to thin out. The cult following will probably continue to market his materials even after he retires. For example, his first book "Looking Forward" now sells from $200-$400 each. I remember I had 10 or 20 copies, years ago that were $6 each. But, they got lost over the years...

Anyway, part of being a fanatic is to NOT listen to reason, to get angry with friends and family who are trying to warn you that something is wrong with this guy. But, like "religion", when you fill one "crutch" (religion) with another crutch (promises for tomorrow), in the end, you are still with a "crutch". You defend your crutch "to the death" (symbolically), imperfections and all.

Then when you finally find your pockets empty, and the "crutch", cheating on his first girlfriend, with the second girlfriend (Roxanne), the light goes on that you are dealing with "two" people. One "on stage", one "off stage". But, in fairness, isn't that true for all "performers"? It's part of the "gig" you are trying to "sell" for your "bread and butter".

While you are looking at the left hand, the right hand will getcha. Just follow the money.... Ciao...

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Anticultist blog comments

Roxanne made a reply on VTV's blog calling this person above a liar, interesting lets see what an external party has to say about that shall we ?
Well, lets take a look at some things:
Jacque and Roxanne quoted on VTV's blog:
"We now have just compiled 15 of these lectures on three 5 CD sets and on almost all of them you can hear Jacque at the end say it is $3.00 for non-members and $2.00 for members of Sociocyberneering not the $10 -$20 this person claims Jacque charged. This helps to show you what this person says below is utterly false in regards to what Jacque used to charge"
This is the claim they are talking about:
" His income from giving lectures at his home was only $10-$20 per lecture, 2 or 3 times a week. Roxanne, being an unemployed art major, helped a little with the rent."
But wait, check out one more thing Euripide Sneed said:
" Yes. It was very common to bring a tape recorder to the lectures. Sometimes 1 person would bring one. Other times several people would bring one. Admission varied between $1 per lecture session to $3 per lecture session depending on what year it was. In the 70's it was $1 per session, in the 80's it was $2-$3 per session."
When he said "$10-$20 per lecture" what he must have meant was that Jacque Fresco made $10-20 total from the 10 or so people who showed up and paid $1-$3 each. They have taken his words out of context. His actual claim about the cost of admission is $1-$3, the same amount that they state, there is no discrepancy.
Jacque and Roxanne are the ones who are lying here. Not Euripide Sneed.
anticultist said this on April 14, 2010 at 4:05 pm | Reply

You know, I posted the above comment on VTV's blog as well and he deleted it. What a wiener.
http://v-radioblog.blogspot.com/2010/04/reply-to-euripide-sneed-on-anticultist.html
Sky said this on April 17, 2010 at 7:08 am | Reply
Yes. Thanks. Absolutely, that is what I was saying.

In the first instance I used the word "income" of $10 to $20 (depending on what year it was because the fees changed). I did not say admission fee. I was NOT saying he made a lot of money, I was saying he made very little money. Geeze!
The second instance of $1-$3, was supplemental information which specified "admission" and not total income. Again I was trying to say that he did not make much money. And not what she is insinuating in her response (that I was trying to make it look like he charged too much money)....
I will try to respond to the rest directly on your blog...
ES
anticultist said this on April 17, 2010 at 2:30 pm

Its nice to hear a bit of history, and helps show that Fresco has always rather struggled with finances. I can quite understand his desire to do things his way, and not to get too much into bed with those with money, its a difficult game for sure to play, where your not being played.
Finance does seem one of the common issues effecting many efforts to change the world. A good book on the aspect of not always having the right skill set for a task is the E-Myth ( http://www.e-myth.com ), I fond most useful in spotting the weak areas in myself, and I think people like Fresco could benefit from it (If he's not already read it, as its been out for a while now.), as I think he is a genuis in some areas, but like many people I know of with great ideas, lack the business skills to make it a reality.
That I think is something we can help folk like that with, develop something they can make money with, so they can afford to put their ideas into practice.
Often money making is seen as a great evil by the more idealistic, so it isn't always a good marriage with followers who are poor and hate the rich, and idealist genuises who have the ideas, but no way to put them into practice.
I hope the history talked about here, shows the need to be more Donald Trump like to get things done.
Nanos said this on April 14, 2010 at 5:41 pm | Reply

I think your optimistic view of this man and woman is quite different to my own view in light of this new information.
To me it just seems all rather snake like and manipulative, not to mention the levels of control freak being perpetuated.
I personally think they know enough about finances to get by just fine, and quite honestly if they start making millions from this new found interest in their ideas you might see some more dubious dealings and turns occuring. When Jacque passes away it might get a little interesting too.
anticultist said this on April 14, 2010 at 5:47 pm | Reply

Even if Fresco has been captured by the monetary system, who isn't? I'm not surprised if he is. How many times have I heard him say, "the monetary system makes you a son-of-a-bitch." I'm not surprised at all. But I feel our interpretation of the events may be skewed a bit to far by a bias that is inclined to maximize the possible negative aspects of Fresco. Although, I do have the same hunch everyone else has.
Nate said this on June 17, 2010 at 4:28 am

I just go by the events of what happened and that is what ES says happened because even Roxannes official statement in reply to this blog did not deny it, in fact it further compounded it as truth. Then I add on the fact the Venus project is a profit company and a non profit charity that does nothing but promote media and make models and generate income, money and more members to promote it and buy into it.
So Jacque can say all the double talk and lyrical muddying he likes it wont change those facts.
anticultist said this on June 17, 2010 at 9:28 am

Below is a reply from Euripide Sneed regarding Roxanne Meadows reply to his details provided above:
I just checked your blog to respond, but apparently her comments were not made there, but some place else. That being the case, that means my comments are on some other Forum, which was not my intention.
Many people who attended the lectures that Jacque held in his home wanted to get together and purchase land and build something. Jacque was going to supply all of the designs. Jacque offered drawing lesson so people could participate in some way but it really boiled down to three people do did most of the work the others were mostly verbal.
No argument, here. Most of the members were unskilled, and participated by giving money, since they had regular jobs they could not quit.
They did put up enough money to get a down payment for about 40 acres of land in Naples, Florida for about $600. an acre, but they did not continue the payments except for 3 people but those 3 could not make the land payments alone so a lawyer friend of Jacque's, Cleave Herring, came forth and continued the payments until we could sell the land. Nothing was made on that venture.
These are details that are fair, but do not contradict what was stated, which was that some people invested money, and never got it back. And some people wrote it off as a loss. It is sad that they were in such a hurry to sell this land, since it was a better investment. That nothing was made on that venture means then, that they sold it for less than they purchased it for, and yet now it is worth millions? This land was not affordable apparently, so it had to be sold, but, the Venus land ended up costing much more.
It was strange because if the group did follow through with the payment and kept the land if they ever wanted to sell it would have been worth millions because that area became a very exclusive wealthy area to live. The land value rocketed in Naples.
Sad but true.
Unfortunately by that time there was no organization after the members stopped paying on the land.
Yes, many of the members stopped making the monthly payments when the move was made to Venus, others continued to make payments after the move to Venus. Others just ran out of money. As I said, many were poor.
That whole episode was disappointing to Jacque and the other two people who continued to work with him. After all he put out a lot of effort with people for over a decade to teach them things in all areas.
Yes, there was a nice group forming in Miami, they would still be together today, willing to participate, if the organization had not moved out of Miami. The rest of the group could not just "uproot" themselves, quit their jobs, and move to Venus with no source of income. It was a wilderness out there in Venus. At least Miami had jobs where they could continue to pay to attend lectures, learn new things, and continue to support the movement.
The money to buy the land in Venus came from the sale of a home in Miami Jacque sold. He lived there for about a year of more. This house was in the black section of Miami so you know the land value was not high.
Yes, my information did not conflict with this.
This person who wrote this nasty article knows nothing about the prices he is remarking on. He is lying about all of this. The first parcel we purchased in Venus was 10 acres for a little over $1,600 an acre. Then over the years we purchase two other contiguous parcels that adds up to a little over 21+ acres. He knows very little about building processes either because building out of concrete and steal is far more expensive and durable than brick and timber. All of the other numbers are grossly incorrect as well.
Lying? How so? These are details that supplement the information already provided, they don't conflict with it. The whole point of the buildings on Venus, was that there is a "cheaper way" to house people. And that 50% of the cost of a home is the cost of labor. The dome structures, whether made of concrete or steel, require fewer laborers, and thus, a lower cost per structure. If these steel structures have a higher real estate value than brick and mortar, then "have at it". Then the property is a "bargain" and hopefully will be sold real soon.
We never changed the name to The Venus Project to cover up any deals regarding the sale of the land in Naples. We changed the name long after the purchase of the land in Venus because Sociocyberneering was too difficult to pronounce for people or even to remember. This was before the word cyber was even used. The Venus Project was simple and easy.
We don't want to spend much more time on this nonsense as most of what he is saying are lies, projections and out of some other misunderstanding.
"She doth protest too much". The "bulk" of the comments I made about Fresco were "complimentary", even to the "chagrin" and "annoyance" of some of the people in this blog. It was not a popular thing to do. But, I called a spade a spade, for better or for worse. She uncovered no lies, as much as provided more detail and minutia (which is welcome), concerning what was already said. However, if the purpose of creating a new entity was strictly to create a "shorter name", or easier to pronounce, there was "no need" to dissolve the first organization, especially if funds were hard to come by. Sociocyberneering had jumped through the hoops to qualify as a non-profit organization, it had a track record in terms of how long it was incorporated. This is important when soliciting future donations, and reporting treatment from Dun and Bradstreet. To legally change the name, and leave the organization in tact would have cost only a "fraction" of the cost of creating a whole new organization, submitting paperwork, re qualifying, etc. But, I agree with her that we should not spend any more time on this "nonsense". Let's move forward and learn from our past mistakes, but try to remember those who gave of themselves and their money, in good faith early in this movement, but are now just relegated as "deadbeats" or "verbal" supporters from the past.
He never checked his statements with us and does not even use his real name. If you listen to the Fresco's Classic Lecture Series you will see that he took that name after hearing it from Jacque, which is ironic, but we mainly wanted to make a statement as to what happened in regards to the Naples property.
We all remember what we remember, it's all pieces of a puzzle, and neither side has a monopoly on the whole truth. The choice of pseudonym was intentional, and was an attempt to complement Fresco on his creativity and wonderful sense of humor. And hopefully it will encourage people to listen to some of his past lectures, just to hear about the adventures of Sneed. "fini"
anticultist said this on April 17, 2010 at 11:48 am | Reply

Regarding the first property (Naples) she responds "Nothing was made on that venture" regarding the sale of it. This bothers me on several levels. If, for example, the property was purchased for $16K, some of which was from members investments, and some of which was the attorney friend, then why couldn't the reduced funds still be returned to the investors? For example: Purchase price, $16K, remaining funds after loses $14K (just an example since we have no other details), then shouldn't the $14K have been distributed at a "pro-rated" bases depending on how much was put into the land? The way the sale was actually handled is that some people (the investors/members) lost 100% of their investment, while maybe others got 100% of their money back. So, while on paper a "profit" wasn't made on the sale, there were "some" funds remaining from the sale. I'm just saying it would have been "nice" to be a part of the "decision-making" process, when our land was sold. Maybe some of us would have been willing to take the property off his hands (transfer title and be done with it). But, that "offer" was never made. We are just told "after the fact" that the property was sold at a loss, without any ledger or accounting, as is customary when a group of people pool their money into an investment. I'm sorry I had to to add this, but it is just so "frustrating" how some facts and issues were just "skimmed" over. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt, and pick an "outrageous loss" of $15K. So, that the property was purchased for $16K and sold for $1K after paying the mortgage and the attorney. Then shouldn't that remaining $1,000 been offered proportionately to those who had in invested in the first property? Those whose payments amounted to only 10% of the purchase price could have been offered 10% of the remaining funds, or $100. Those who paid 50% could have gotten $500 back, etc. But, I really doubt that the remaining funds was only $1K after the sale, so probably more money was involved. As you can see, it is not just about the "money", but rather how the situation was handled. Enough said for clarification purposes, we have all moved on since then...
Euripide Sneed said this on April 19, 2010 at 4:20 pm | Reply

As is customary with these people they dont like anyone in their business.
Try and talk financial issues with them today and they avoid you like the plague, something is going down with those two and its looking shady.
I would not trust those two with a boats rudder, the second you look away they'd be steering you off course and blaming you for it.
anticultist said this on April 19, 2010 at 7:23 pm | Reply

That's exactly what happened.
Euripide Sneed said this on April 27, 2010 at 6:22 pm

Yeah and its shameful, taking advantage of decent humble folk.
anticultist said this on April 27, 2010 at 6:51 pm

You clearly have more up to date experiences than I can offer, since I have not been a volunteer with the group for many decades.
Also, some of the readers on your blog (or an affiliate forum) had a question about my reference of "Shape of Things to Come", not being listed as a movie in any directory. To clarify, the "book" by H.G. Wells (1933)was written by that title. But, when it was made into a movie the title was shortened to "Things to Come" (1936). The early Sociocyberneering book list had the book title listed and not the "shorter" movie title. But, both the book and movie were often recommended for those people who were interested in a simplified version of using machines to assemble buildings, as we currently do with robots in the automobile industry. Erecting buildings with robots was just the next logical step in progression.
Euripide Sneed said this on April 22, 2010 at 12:02 am | Reply

http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/04/08/earth-2-movie-venus-proect-fails-and-reators-cut-fresco-loose/#comment-623
http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/04/08/earth-2-movie-venus-proect-fails-and-reators-cut-fresco-loose/#comment-624
anticultist said this on April 29, 2010 at 8:43 pm | Reply

The following was also a great article. I wasn't able to register to compliment the author (registration closed), but it was well thought out. I remember while being a conspiracy theorist it was so convenient (and mentally lazy) to have an "us" and "them" mentality. It is much harder to examine each person on their own merits, rather than just classify them as "the illuminati". I have no doubt that there are conspiracies, as it is a recognized "legal term", however, they tend to exist in small "clusters" of people, as opposed to just "one global" entity. Even amongst bankers, Freemasons, etc., there are good guys and bad guys, as in any other organization for that matter.
The article I am referring to, as a good read, is as follows: http://conspiracyscience.com/blog/2010/05/07/a-response-to-the-zeitgeist-movements-diagnosis-of-intellectual-inhibition/
Euripide Sneed said this on May 8, 2010 at 5:28 pm | Reply

yeah very good read, you can get in touch with the writer via their email at the top of the post, also I have other posts by them linked on the side:
http://muertos.blog.com/2010/03/13/adventures-in-conspiracy-land-the-zeitgeist-movement/
http://muertos.blog.com/2010/05/06/the-zeitgeist-movement-take-2-conspiracies-are-us/
anticultist said this on May 8, 2010 at 6:23 pm

Haha, "good guys" and "bad guys" suffer from a similar flawed dichotomy as "us" against "them."
Nate said this on June 17, 2010 at 4:56 am

hahahahahahaha
anticultist said this on May 18, 2010 at 4:19 pm | Repl
y
Oh man... That video made me come back to this blog and want to read it fully. I know these comments from ES were copied and pasted from other blogs here, so I'll be reviewing those links soon. But wow, I truly appreciate the insight from him and sharing his experience with us here.
I do have a question though, I was wondering how different was the booklist in Sociocyberneering recommendations oppose to what is in the recommended booklist they have now?
Link: http://thevenusproject.com/images/stories/booklist.pdf
I would like to know which movies and books were subtracted/substituted assuming that there is a difference between the two.
From ES:
"For example, his first book "Looking Forward" now sells from $200-$400 each. I remember I had 10 or 20 copies, years ago that were $6 each. But, they got lost over the years..."
Well, it's free now:
http://thevenusproject.com/images/stories/Looking-Forward-v2.pdf
But I know, they are still selling stuff.
BranManFloMore said this on May 18, 2010 at 8:31 pm | Reply

Its class isnt it ! whoever did it I would like to thank them for it.
anticultist said this on May 18, 2010 at 9:57 pm | Reply

And the beat is so catchy too.
BranManFloMore said this on May 18, 2010 at 10:00 pm

There are only a few changes between the older booklists and the newer ones. Books were normally added rather than taken off. For example the old list didn't have DVDs on it because DVDs didn't exist in the 70′s. If I find an old book list in the next few weeks I will upload a copy.
EDITED:
Hello again.
I had promised BranManFloMore a copy of the reading list from the 70′s, see attachment.
As you can see, there were some changes, but many of the original books are still on the present reading list.
ES

http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af354/anticultist/readinglist1070s.jpg
Euripide Sneed said this on May 22, 2010 at 6:27 pm | Reply

Take your time and thanks for responding.
BranManFloMore said this on May 22, 2010 at 6:43 pm

Jacque discusses sociocyberneering events, here he washes over what happened with Euripide Sneed, and makes out as if they all just dropped out paying on the original land. And then says he didn't go back to them afterwards as he didn't want them involved.

File Hosting Online Storage Backup
anticultist said this on May 26, 2010 at 4:30 pm

The original video - just replace marimba music for meditation and theyre usual canned responses for singing/chanting and you got the Zeitgeist Movement(up to 10:57).Certainly makes a good intro to this group.
P.S. My woeful performance and overall abscence at RBEF,my disatorous attempt at reaching out to my local chapter,the odd snide remark here and there etc is a sign of one thing - I really dont care anymore.Im 23 years old and currently going through one of the few lucid moments in my life and I have alot to do - Im working with some post grads during the summer ,I suspect I have manic depression must deal with it plus I have some things I want to do over the summer.To be honest I dont want to hear,see or speak the word Zeitgeist or anything related to it for at least a month...maybe more..I've had enough of this sillyness.To see this movement crash and burn under its own nievity/foolisness has been seriously downing me alot for the past few months or so.Ciao!
Shane Nolan said this on May 18, 2010 at 11:02 pm | Reply

take care shane
yeah Ive seen that original I love it.
Thats why I like the one above yours so much.
anticultist said this on May 18, 2010 at 11:20 pm | Reply

Yeah, I still dig the remix though. Take care Shane.
BranManFloMore said this on May 19, 2010 at 12:51 am

Damn, there certainly are parallels. Not quite to the extremes as in the video, but very close in some aspects. I wonder if Fresco ever imagined he would be the spark of a cultesque development. His life would be a great biopic.
Nate said this on June 17, 2010 at 5:22 am | Reply

http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/04/14/tvp-ex-1970-1980s-member-speaks/#comment-884
For those of you doubting the authenticity of Euripide, see the 1970s reading list pdf provided in the comment above.
anticultist said this on June 3, 2010 at 8:01 pm | Reply

No one will have to doubt anymore. But yeah... We know now. To ES, a major thanks to you.
BranManFloMore said this on June 3, 2010 at 8:45 pm | Reply

Wow! Very good post. This is great historical information and I see Peter Joseph following in Jacque Fresco's footprints. I had a thought while reading this that perhaps Jacque offered to teach "Dr. Peter Joseph" how to defraud people of their money and endorse him exclusively in exchange for him to buy his property. Crazy thought really. Peter Joseph Merola strikes me as a poor person.
Manila English said this on July 31, 2010 at 3:07 pm | Reply

Yes its interesting to see exactly what goes on in the background and in the historical records of these people and groups, most of their membership ignore this information and dont even consider it valuable. They are simply being naieve to not fully research these people they trust and claim as heros.
This information really does change things, there is also some more information regarding Jacque Frescos history below which I posted elsewhere that was given to me by this same member:
So here goes:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From time to time when I do a Google search, I see Fresco's name pop up, and in this case it was regarding the Conspiracy Science site trying to piece together Frecso's past.
Every time I think I have communicated for the last time, something pops up on the Internet which bothers me because it is not accurate.
I believe the people at Conspiracy Science are on the right track to "individually research" the archives, rather than just use one person as a resource.
So, some of the clarifications in chronology are as follows, but are by no means more than "ball park" estimates in terms of exact dates.
1. It was suggested that Jacque left his wife to be with Roxanne. Not true. She entered the picture "quite late" in the game. Fresco had a daughter AND a son, from a previous marriage. After the divorce, the mother kept both children from visiting Fresco until they were older. His son didn't really get a chance to know his father until the late 70′s for a few brief visits to the Fresco home. His son had no inclinations of being a philosopher like his father, and was interested in joining the police force. Without warning, again "approximately" in the late 70′s, maybe early 80′s, his son shot himself (apparently over a discontinued relationship with a girlfriend). I met him, and he was a nice sort of fellow. I was sad to see him gone at such an early age (late teens, early 20′s). I never met Fresco's daughter, she remained with her mother in those days.
2. Roxanne has been referenced several times, on the Internet as "co-founder" of Sociocyberneering in Miami. This is untrue. After Fresco's divorce, he got a vasectomy, not wanting to bring any more children in the world, since he never planned on ever getting married again. He always felt that Polygamy was the way to go (without the marriage part). After the divorce, possibly many years, he met Birgit Lahaye.
(http://www.miamiislandliving.com/)
She worked many years with him as Treasurer of Sociobyberneering, and helping him with various film and art productions. She was from Germany, and a dedicated mate and hard worker. She was technically the co-founder of Sociocyberneering, with Jacque. One day, in the late 70′s, Roxanne attended one of Jacque's lectures with her boyfriend (who was a long time member). One thing led to another, and after a few weeks, she was sleeping with Jacque. Jacque was happy to keep both girlfriends, but Birgit was more traditionally minded, and didn't believe in "threesomes". Nevertheless, Birgit continued to support Jacque, helped with the move from Miami to Venus, and even helped Jacque build some of the domes and models at Venus. But, understandably, Birgit could not continue to be a "second fiddle" to Roxanne indefinitely and so she moved on. Roxanne was more ideal for Jacque (less of an independent thinker than Birgit, less moral inhibitions, and completely mold-able). Sort of a "blank slate". But, early on, Roxanne became very "territorial" with Jacque, and alienated many of the members. People who knew him for years, "now" had to go through "her" (the new girl on the block) to make an appointment with him.
3. I have no further contact with any of them, but my understanding is that Birgit continues to make a life for herself, works with Real Estate, and in my opinion is the "most" knowledgeable person concerning Jacque's work (besides himself). Understandably, she did not make waves, to Jacque's change in partners, and she still wishes him well from afar.
4. It can be argued, but not proven at this time, that one of the reasons the organization moved out of Miami (and fell apart) was to make the separation easier for Jacque and Birgit. Unfortunately, many of the members (which was unknown to Jacque) objected to his fling with Roxanne, and more importantly they loved and missed Birgit's presence in the group, after so many years of her sacrifice and contributions. So, I guess you can say that it was a "coincidence" that many of the members, including Roxanne's previous boyfriend, stopped making payments on the Naples land, and started to drift even further when Jacque took a permanent "honeymoon" to Venus with Roxanne (no pun intended). I don't believe that Birgit was in a position to just "quit" her job, and become a farmer in Venus anyway.
5. I believe that Birgit will continue to admire Jacque, in spite of how she was treated. And, probably in her own mind, she is very understanding of his need for a mate who had less personal ambitions in life.
I hope this helps a little. Sorry I have nothing to contribute concerning his daughter. And I regret never getting the opportunity to meet her before her passing.
Originally I posted it here:
http://conspiracyscience.com/forums/topic/jacque-fresco-deadbeat-dad
anticultist said this on July 31, 2010 at 3:25 pm | Reply

There is a new video going around suggesting that "I" said that Jacque cheated on his wife with Roxanne. Yet, I stated the complete "opposite". Jacque was divorced for many years from his wife before he met Roxanne in the late 70′s. When Jacque met Roxanne he "did" have a "significant other" at the time, who was not thrilled about Jacque's new affair, but she was not his wife when he cheated on her. So, my concern is that anyone seeing the video will be able to check the record and see that Jacque was divorced for many years before meeting Roxanne. Thus the video will lose its credibility. There were other statements in the video attributed to me, that I never said. So, I guess "no good deed goes unpunished" as they say. I tried to clarify the historical record, and instead it gets turned into fiction...
Euripide Sneed said this on August 7, 2010 at 6:21 am | Reply

Looks like someones read the blog briefly and then made a video without taking care in the quotes. At least if anyone checks the sources they will find that the video is flawed and not you.
anticultist said this on August 7, 2010 at 6:30 am | Reply

Thanks. I hope that will be the case. There are enough (real) potential problem issues with Fresco's history of dealing with "supporters", that can be addressed, without having to create "fake" or "red herring" issues, which never happened. This is why many modern newspapers and TV/Radio shows are losing ratings, because they "re-write" history and current events, and the American public is losing confidence in their accuracy. I hope that doesn't happen with the Conspiracy Science movement.
Euripide Sneed said this on August 7, 2010 at 9:02 pm

Yeah I think there is just a few moments here and there where things get a bit indifferent on the forum, nothing to worry about they, they always go back to what they do best and that is use facts against conspiracy theories.
Regarding those youtube videos CS forum are not responsible for any of them as far as I am aware, none of them have mentioned creating or participating in their making. So hopefully whoever is making them are reading this and fix their stuff.
anticultist said this on August 7, 2010 at 10:20 pm

I appreciate you pointing that out. I visited the vimeo web site again to see why I was under the impression that it was one of the CS members. When you go to video, under the video is a reference to CS. But, as I looked closer, the person who posted the video called himself "anon2″, and the CS reference was only a link to where he got the inspiration for the video. So, yes, it is possible that he is not a CS member. And even if he is a member, CS probably had no control over his "anonymous" actions. So, I am just going to drop the issue rather than draw more attention to the video..... At the same time, I'm not saying that the video is completely wrong. For example, Fresco may indeed have cheated on his wife while he was married (it was before my time). But, it wouldn't have been with Roxanne, since she was one of the newest members of the group, while others had been with Jacque 10 or 20 years before she came along....
Euripide Sneed said this on August 9, 2010 at 3:11 am | Reply

Wow, I'm sitting here reading this after curiously lurking around the CS site for maybe the past week or so. I've been part of TZM for over 2 years and as time went by, I just had more and more questions which went completely unanswered. I want to commend Euripide Sneed (is that the coolest name in the world? quite possibly) for being entirely honest and open about his experiences with TVP. It has broadly answered many questions I had floating around in my head in one fell swoop.
I'm caught between feelings that PJM and TVP are trying to really do good on this earth, trying to make this a better place for us all and the feeling that they might just be looking after Numero Uno, selling us snake oil whilst whispering how it will make our ailment go away. It could all be an incredibly well thought out marketing scheme to earn big money on one or more theatrical releases with an already established fanbase of several hundred thousands of people, something I wouldn't put past a creative, intelligent young man with proven connections in both advertising and the movie business...
Perhaps I'm seeing mirages, when in fact it's simply a highway leading nowhere..
Thanks for your insight ES, very interesting stuff.
Senor DingDong said this on September 3, 2010 at 3:14 am | Reply

Though it is possible, I wouldn't put too much hype into a money scheme.
In all likelihood, both Fresco and Merola have good intentions. However, Merola took a naive dive after encoutering the grand wizard Fresco and has gotten himself in too deep to back out now. I'm sure that some of the criticism is getting to him and he knows the critics are right, but at this point he has gone to far to admit defeat. Predictably, he will fight his opponents to death now that he has invested so much money, emotion, and time into disseminating Fresco's ideology. Admitting defeat will destroy him. I can't see him surrendering his esteem and growing ego after so much effort. I would imagine that at this time Merola is probably beginning to see his efforts faltering and soon his knees will grow weak after Fresco passes away. Who knows what will happen then. We may witness a one-man-against-the-world scenario in which his self-worth/total-esteem is at stake for which self-deception will be necessary to preserve it. And the use of his supporters will reaffirms his perceived successes/victories over his critics. Someday he will crash hard with regret and self-loathing. Or perhaps he will find a way to avoid admitting failure (kinda like Fresco) by being either completely delusional/oblivious or by staging his success/credibility/reverence/confidence like a performance (kinda like Fresco). I could be wrong, Merola has surprised me before.
Regarding Fresco, he's probably sincere too. If he developed all of his rhetoric simply as a way to "make a buck" like some people around here think, then he should be declared a genius just for the sheer vastness and thoroughness of his material. It seems clear that he is sincere and but perhaps slightly delusional (especially since most old men are, but I am hesitant to call him delusional, he seems something like delusional). People tend to oversimplify Fresco's personality as if he were a toad. The truth is, if you take a look throughout history, most of the predominant figures (primarily philosophers and artists) had very complex personalities that were difficult to deal with. Place Fresco's personality in the enlightenment era, he would have made an impact.
Fresco is the kind of guy who stives for autonomy, he seems geared that way. When you see him that way, his entire life makes sense: difficulty holding jobs, frequent traveling, his passion, his energy, multidisiplinary interests fueled by a "need for cognition" (NFC). He seems to have suffered from mania all his life. Thus, doesn't it sound right to call him a maniac?
Maniac or not, it does good to understand him. By doing so we can more cleanly cut away from him what is useful.
I think he had high hopes once upon a time, especially when he started Sociocyberneering. As his life comes to a close I'm sure he sees his dream will not be realized. So off he goes on tour with nothing to lose. He gets to do what he is psychologically geared to do (deliver the information he has built his life around) and make money off of it, (kinda sounds like a professor huh?). What could be better? I don't think he's doing it for the money. I think releasing his infinite passion is priority number 1. The money tops the cake.
BTW, I'm pretty sure Euripide Sneed was a name Fresco employed in his early lectures.
Nate said this on September 4, 2010 at 9:26 am | Reply

If you look at the Venus project itself it is a scam to get donations only. Each proposed thing is a fool's proposition to scam money... no material exist as they claim to make the parts. Prefab is a super problem and flying parts is insane... cities to save coral reefs an insult to us all, and Geothermal and Hydro fracturing waters are pollution big time more than we ever dreamed of! Promoting bad technologies in very wrong ways. wanting people to not work is an insult to humans all over the planet. The THEME PARK TZM scamming donations on a fake web page that has 500 members and 404 euros and a guy named John joining each time you go...on the left TED clips that prove what is on the right side is pure junk "THEME PARK" and far from being anything normal or logical with "THEME PARK" materials wanted! Gel for noise for example id for theme parks! Wind power when they know not if they will have wind! They have no location and brake the rules of resource evaluation on the location FIRST use local materials... so many points we see the scam! From way back to this very day... a scam to steal funds for one project to be used for evil greed and vanity extreme... Worst of the worst kind of capitalist pig is to make a theme park!
I would of put them in prison long ago if I had the power!
They have no shame!
just greed vanity and a pile of lies exposed!
Peter said this on September 11, 2010 at 6:23 am

[...] TVP ex 1970-1980′s member speaks [...]
Zeitgeist Blogs: Zeitgeist is a Mind Heist « Zeitgeist Movement Exposed said this on November 10, 2010 at 9:12 pm | Reply

[...] proof when ES provides his old [...]
A Study On The Failure of a VTV Debate « The Zeitgeist Movement Examined said this on January 20, 2011 at 10:00 am | Reply

Thank you so much for this information. It validates my own concerns about this cult. I am very much interested in the concept of utopian psychopatholgy as I feel this is very much what drives the VP. Like the born again christians, the ZM/VP movement plays on the insecurity of most people by making them feel somehow special - the elect...
I made a video a while ago called "Venus Project No Thanks". At first I was getting mostly polite comments. But in the last month I have literally by under attack verbally. It all happened quickly and out of the blue. Organised. I have just published a book on psychopaths and one section deals with the utopian psychopathic control grid - how using everything from Love Bombing, Protection and Gaslighting lures people in. Mind control in precise, incremental steps. I see all this in the ZM/VP. It is so obvious in fact.
Thanks so much for this very important blog. Here are the videos I made which got them all in a tizzy:

Thomas Sheridan said this on February 27, 2011 at 7:41 pm | Reply

thanks for your comment man appreciated.
anticultist said this on April 12, 2011 at 6:19 pm | Repl
y
Anticultist -- I am writing a feature-length article on the Venus Project, and would love your input. What got you into this, why you do this, and so forth. Could we talk within the next couple days? If so, could you email me to set up a time?
Thanks,
Jeff Gore, Staff Writer
Orlando Weekly
Jeff Gore said this on September 19, 2011 at 4:47 pm | Reply

Hi Jeff it is too late to discuss this matter as I have already seen your article as pointed out by a member of Conspiracy Science. To be honest I read your article and it read like a person pushing an agenda rather than someone doing a piece of reporting.
anticultist said this on October 22, 2011 at 1:32 pm | Reply

Click to get back to topic starter

Click to get back to topic starter



Anticultist blog comments continue...

ok this greek guy on tv... weve all been laughing at this, its possible its a bad translation but lets assess this videos subs.
The guy claims there are 700,000 members, is this a fact ? I am unsure if thats true really because I dont see 700,000 people attending z days or on the forums.
He claims there are scientists in almost every chapter working on it and we all know this is a complete fabrication, and they are anti credentialist so thats not gonna help recruit them
He claims the atlas city is in new zealand, and then makes further insults out inferring TVP/TZM are responsible and part of it even though they have seperated and deny all other groups. This is at best insincere at worst taking credit for others hard work.
He claims it is open source even though there has been a huge fight with rbose about this very issue
He claims that all decisions are made by the members and the end product is from them, even though jacque wont change the script of the outcomes and objectives
He claims they are buying land to build a city even though tvp will not build a city as its all about awareness for a long long time
He claims there is no leader even though jacque, roxanne and peter dictate the entire process.
All of these claims are stretching the truth if not down right fabrications.
or maybe the greek chapter have no idea whats really going on in zeitgeist due to poor communication ?
If this guy is a coordinator of an official chapter or an official greek spokesperson for this movement, then they really should make sure they have fully researched and got their facts straight before putting them onto national tv and then the internet.
Anyone got a transcript thats better than this videos ?
anticultist said this on April 28, 2010 at 1:19 am

Prometheuspan, please connect with me on facebook http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Venus-Project-1984/136090816410864?ref=ts
my profile: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1663961068
I want to counter the TVP argument and could use your help. thank you!
james kush said this on July 4, 2010 at 11:25 pm | Reply

I have been giving a lot of thought to the problem of TVP and how to best address the problem and solve it with the greatest
degree of efficiency.
There are several conclusions I have come to and I would like to share them with you.
1. TVP is on the face of it based on true and good principles. The top Core Axioms of TVP are actually true.
These include Axioms centered around defining the problems with the current economic system and Axioms defining a better
system. Defenders and Apologists of TVP want to think about, focus on, and argue the validity of those axioms. We need
to be clear with them that those axioms are true, that we understand them to be true, and that there is no contest over
those Axioms.
2. Jaques is actually a very intelligent and very admirable person. However, there are real limits to what he actually does
know and can be competent for. These limits include anything regarding sociology, systems theory, game theory, simulation,
or psychology. Jaques is an excellent artist, and for a hobbyist hes an enlightened civil Engineer. However, hes not an actual
Civil Engineer, hes a hobbyist. He is a visionary, and he is absolutely right about Economics, Energy, and the general direction
which we need to go in to evolve economically. What he does not know anything about and can make no serious claim on
is sociology, psychohistory, or etc. In short, because he cries wolf and inflates his real competence with exaggerations and lies,
he makes himself suspicious for all of his claims even though some of them may be somewhat true.
3. The core weakness and core fallacy of TVP is not in its core ideals, but in its handling of social reality and social aspects
of running a movement. The difference between a social movement and a Cult, at the core of it, is whether or not the organization acts to empower the participants, or instead acts only to en-richen and empower the top echelon. TVP is a cult because it allows
itself to be abusive, because the admins on the forum and other places are ad hominem wielding, codependency power trippers,
not moderators, and because the net result of their paranoid delusions and ego trips is that they infallibly alienate anyone who has
an actual education, or anyone whos interested in real collaboration, or paths of meaningful right action. TVP is not a cult for having false core axioms. It is a cult for being manipulative, abusive, dishonest, and evil towards and about people in general.
4. This cannot be rationally denied. The people close to the movement like Nanos Or Gavin have to tip toe and walk on eggshells
and constantly play at self censorship in a minefield of forbidden topics, forbidden issues, and forbidden people. The threads on the
forum do not lead to collaboration and are merely chat threads, not productive, and not collaborative. The good ideas of the participants are given lip service, but then fall off the thread list and into TVPs memory hole.
5. Ad hominem attacks, however much they feel good for relieving ones annoyance at the cult, Do not promote an understanding
or lead other people to leave the Cult. The tactics we need to employ are the standard Anti Cult tactics, and that means that we
need to consider people actively involved in TVP and their psychology, and build bridges and escape hatches out of the mental cages that are comfortable and inviting to them. This requires a strong focus on the core flaws, and even stronger focus on being

diplomatically centered and in service to escapees who may often be confrontational. If TVP can easily dismiss us by calling us
a smear campaign and a troll game or etc, and have that stick because we are indeed speaking trollese due to being pissed off,
we only play into their game and the sleight of mind. We have to be INORDINANTLY NICE AND DIPLOMATIC TOWARDS CULT MEMBERS IN ORDER TO MAKE THEM SEE THE DIFFERENCE.
6. The case to be made against TVP is then about how it does in fact abuse people, and how it does in fact alienate as well as fear any actual scientists or experts. This can be demonstrated on a case by case basis for 20 examples of each kind of abuse.
A. Ad hominem attacks against new people/ people asking questions.
B. Passive Aggressive manipulations against long standing members.
C. Conflicts between moderators and admins in demonstration of no metaprocess.
D. Appeals to or from authority in response to questions on their forum
E. Lies about people they interact with, ban from their site, or etc.
F. Freaking out and going postal the moment somebody informs them that they know something that the organization or its moderators don't.
G. Making transparently false claims about their knowledge in order to pretend and in order to cover up their paranoid delusional
fears and real fears about being discovered as ignorant.
H. Ad hominem attacks against long standing members
I. Other forms of attack, such as straw man argument and false dilemma against people asking legitimate questions on their forum
or etc.
7. So, what we need is 20 good examples of each of these behaviors, and a core thread per each of these behaviors, in order
to pin down these behaviors and prove to people that this happens, and that it happens frequently and chronically and habitually,
and in order to make the point that we are not arguing against the core axioms; but against how the movement BEHAVES towards
people.
8. Most importantly, we must not engage in these behaviors ourselves, and must show through our own demonstration of interaction how it is possible to handle high tension conflict without resorting to being abusive, demeaning, or manipulative towards the cult members whom we are trying to save.
Prometheuspan said this on April 22, 2010 at 11:16 am | Reply

"I know prometheuspan they have serious flaws and are foolishly walking into the mainstream (just youtube search zeitgeist on tv) without adressing them at all ."
You know what is most funny? that stupidity in some senses dooms
them. as soon as investigative journalism starts or real pundits take a hard look, they will end up skewered like a politician caught doing something obscene in public.
"If they were in any way honest about what they are promoting then they would address them. As I outlined in my rather hastily compiled contribution here we are going to end up with the same thing we had with the environmentalist movement where at first everyone was enamoured but finally saw it for the empty shell it was"
Its a strange paradox no? every social movement ever started has a vitality of say t minus 3 years and then it self destructs. Actual death may take decades, or it may just end up defanged and turned into a pop culture phenomenon- twisted into a tiny little pug garden gnome version of itself.
And then people get the idea that version is all that it can ever be or is; and thats what it becomes and all of the possibility for real evolution dies.
The hippie movement, the permaculture movement, buckminster fuller or Paolo soleri, wicca or paganism or shamanism or buddhism in the USA... al gutted the same way. Taken down by being infiltrated by trolls from the inside. Like buddha getting parasite worms that devour him from inside out.
The environmentalist movement is so far gone that route its not even funny. When the hero of environementalism is a third rate politician who stood up and was is so ignorant he got half of his facts skewed, you know somethings wrong. Then every fool wants to tell me how al gore invented environmentalism and global warmingand argue against HIS presentation, not my facts. Its amazing.
TVP is its own worst enemy so long as it fails to resolve the metaprocess issue. All organizations are. Thats human nature.
without something to prevent us from doing it, we sink as if it were gravity back into secret unsceret versions of "lord of the flies".
quietely killing (each others souls, not bodies) each other all to get up to and keep the top of that local pyramid.
Thunder; VTV, azzie,... PJ to a much less degree...
slicing open victim after victim on the altar of TVP ...
and never admitting that the ritual is only to serve their egos. Not TVPs real goals as an organization.
its insidious, its sad, and as much as tvp may claim i am smearing them- the truth is that i am the only chance they have to escape their karma. Otherwise, TVP in 50 years will just be another sad footnote of a thing that might have made a difference. but never got its act together. and never really tried.
VTV and thunder and azzie and etc are murdering TVP.
And you and I are the one only ones who can save it.
Prometheuspan said this on April 22, 2010 at 5:13 pm | Reply

= When will that be? post apocalypse? After the collapse?
And how are they going to manage anything that big when they always alienate real professionals for being abusive + paranoid delusional ?
TVP will never be anything more than a three tier cult of personality video club. Thats the very top of their competency
level and one step beyond it.=
I'm trying to be diplomatic about this.
I've finished reading the interactions between the Venus Project and the RBEF, which to me at this point in time, seems to be cause of this hatred toward the apparent "incompetency" of the Venus Project.
Well, nobody here on this blog has conferred with The Venus Project about the details of their designs. Therefore every single one of you have come to the conclusion that they are incompetent, without having all the data to confirm this.
Not only that, but there seems to be a misunderstanding about the process in general.
In order for the Earth and humanity to become truly sustainable we need to act as one central entity. We have to survey all natural resources in order to determine the carrying capacity of the Earth, which we have to respect in order for there to be any way to measure sustainability of the species.
Since nobody has understand the implications of that step, and how it is a requirement to reach before moving on with any hope of sustainability; you're all supporting the notion that we need to work within the system to change it.
This will be effective to a certain point. Going off the grid, and creating local sustainability and abundance can only go so far. The species as a whole has to act in accordance to global resource availability, which is the only way to ultimately solve the big issues: starvation, and lack of access to the necessities of life.
It's a systems approach.
It would be much easier to get this done if we work as a cohesive whole.
What will happen with projects like the RBEF and Open Source Ecology is that they will run into problems when large populations of people start to work on creating self-sustaining communities based on accumulating raw resources. The market system will react and materials will get more and more expensive if they are becoming scarce. That process is the antithesis of the systems approach. If we don't first determine what resources we have then we are going to continue to be tempting the possibility of scarcity, therefore threaten the sustainability of the species.
Kris Paterson said this on April 22, 2010 at 8:24 pm | Reply

I agree with showing some examples of the abusive moderators. I even think that anticultist and Promethuspan should be the real moderators of the forum instead since you guys are real-life professionals who actually know what you're talking about and not some pretending wannabes. I'm not active in the forum, but I know that moderators play a BIG role in shaping how the forum develops.
If the moderators are shit, chances are the forum will turn to shit.
Secruoser said this on April 22, 2010 at 11:34 pm | Reply

To be honest while I was there I had every opportunity to get involved in moderating, as I was there and active prior to moderators being implanted and requested.
But I just didnt agree with it and felt I wouldnt enjoy the job, so I didnt apply or ask for the role. This was because I felt I may want to speak out at times, and being a moderator would of required me to be professional.
Sadly most the people who took the jobs werent professional.
anticultist said this on April 23, 2010 at 12:09 am | Reply

"I'm trying to be diplomatic about this."
me 2!
"I've finished reading the interactions between the Venus Project and the RBEF, which to me at this point in time, seems to be cause of this hatred toward the apparent "incompetency" of the Venus Project."
sorry, no hatred.
"Well, nobody here on this blog has conferred with The Venus Project about the details of their designs."
i did try, they couldn't answer.
" Therefore every single one of you have come to the conclusion that they are incompetent, without having all the data to confirm this."
They are flatly incompetent in ways that make it impossible for them to succeed on at least the issue of being abusive to other people. Anything else we might argue but is besides the real point
or problem. I can fix it if Jaques has no blue prints by drawing them myself. I do have that competency and I am happy to share.
What i can't do is interact with them and try to give them gifts
when their paranoid delusions tell them that anybody who knows something they don;t is to be diabolized, cast out, and feared.
(and lied about, and etc.)
I can't help them until after they put down the sword and quit
knifing one peasant after another in the back.
"Not only that, but there seems to be a misunderstanding about the process in general."
Not really, and its ludicrous for you to tell me I don't understand when the truth is that my understanding beats TVP on every issue and thats why we are here.
"In order for the Earth and humanity to become truly sustainable we need to act as one central entity."
not true. and in many ways, fascisticly centered, not fact based.
"We have to survey all natural resources in order to determine the carrying capacity of the Earth, "
yes, i have done that, several times, at parties with 20 post grad college students. It takes about 5 people and 4 days.
"which we have to respect in order for there to be any way to measure sustainability of the species.
Since nobody has understand the implications of that step,"
just stop. I understand that step fine and I have done it.
The carrying capacity of earth is at least in quadrillions of persons.
TVP can't even tackle the problem or run simulation or thought experiments.
"and how it is a requirement to reach before moving on with any hope of sustainability; you're all supporting the notion that we need to work within the system to change it."
Again, not true.
"This will be effective to a certain point. Going off the grid, and creating local sustainability and abundance can only go so far. The species as a whole has to act in accordance to global resource availability, which is the only way to ultimately solve the big issues: starvation, and lack of access to the necessities of life.
It's a systems approach."
Again, I am an expert in systems theory, and TVP wouldn't know meta process if it bit them on the hand. You have no place to tell us that they are taking a systemic approach, when in fact thats their problem, they don't.
"It would be much easier to get this done if we work as a cohesive whole."
I tend to get more done if i act as a one man think tank.
And i would like to have us all come together, but first problems must be solved.
"What will happen with projects like the RBEF and Open Source Ecology is that they will run into problems when large populations of people start to work on creating self-sustaining communities based on accumulating raw resources."
I have solutions for those problems. TVP doesn't even have a solution for how to not expose itself perpetually to the danger of libel lawsuits.
Read me loud and clear on this. I could sue them into non existence for libel, on about 40 counts.
Hear me?
They have transparently lied about me and my person and attempted to defame me.
If i hired a good lawyer, I could end TVP in a six month time span that way.
Think about it.
" The market system will react and materials will get more and more expensive if they are becoming scarce. That process is the antithesis of the systems approach. If we don't first determine what resources we have then we are going to continue to be tempting the possibility of scarcity, therefore threaten the sustainability of the species."
Thats great, so, you tell me when TVP catches up to me andactually bothers to conduct such a survey. With their membership and a sane process it would take them like it took us about 4 days.
They will never do that and are chronically unable to use their membership as anything other than pawns and chit chat distractions.
Furthermore, since they lack serious core knowledge on the subjects in question, they would need experts involved in that process and they are only capable of alienating people who know things they don't.
Meanwhile, I will again state that the carrying capacity is in quadrillions of persons and that all alleged scarcity is manufactured or due to systemic waste.
I have done my home work. They are patently incapable of doing theirs.
prometheuspan said this on April 23, 2010 at 2:13 pm | Reply

let me really let this one sink in for you.
between Jaques and PJ you have one Doctorate in Economics and
all the right work for energy choices.
Other than that its four more bachelors between the two of them.
I have 20 degrees in a virtual sense; to find and employ someone
like me they would need to find and employ 20 people on a team
and know how to run a think tank.
Last night i posted drawings from autocad and sketchup on RBEF.
Yes, thats right. And i am reallu actually just laughingly holding
back on that angle.
because whilst jaques and pj run their cult;
I am the person anywhere amongst you that has the real answers,
and is actually able and willing to be present with you.
as well as able and willing to draw, right here, right now,
whateva you want.
So, now, i am the draftsman that TVP doesn't get to have make its
sorry and pathetic 1970s images look like they have any solidity to them.
Theres a peculiar one i would like to focus on and no, you find it, i am not going to link. It looks like a tree with bulbs on it.
Heres the thing. I can build you his tree. Sure, its feasible given modern materials. But how much more is this going to cost
than a practical and sensible redress of the concept from an engineers perspective instead of from an economists?
WTF? don't tvp cult victims arguing here get about that?
well..any how...
i do hope you join in on the sketchup party yourselves, theres no reason why you can't all of you both take these images and use them for your own purposes/ participate in the OPEN SOURCE DESIGN COLLABORATIVE..
so... give me a break. whos winning and whos losing in TVPs battle
with evermores?
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=393&t=2027
prometheuspan said this on April 24, 2010 at 6:06 pm | Reply

I hope you realise they have virtual diplomas and bachelors not real ones. Unlike most of us with real quals.
anticultist said this on April 24, 2010 at 6:24 pm | Reply

I have enjoyed reading your posts.. especially your claim to carrying capacity of quadrillions... however, you can not replace a team of 20 good engineers for sheer bandwidth issues, even if you can come up with some valuable ideas that the 20 of them all together couldn't come up with. Furthermore, there are plenty of engineers with just one degree who continue to study outside of school and whose fully bloomed expertise would compare to at least 3 or 4 bachelors degrees. Degrees are not everything, and frankly, though you speak intelligently, your conceipt seems to be a problem. I am beginning to wonder if it is some kind of a tragic flaw.
Matt S said this on September 16, 2010 at 7:16 am | Reply

http://www.rbefoundation.com/download/file.php?id=459&mode=view
prometheuspan said this on April 24, 2010 at 6:09 pm | Reply

7. So, what we need is 20 good examples of each of these behaviors, and a core thread per each of these behaviors, in order
prometheuspan said this on April 24, 2010 at 6:12 pm | Reply

I hope you realise they have virtual diplomas and bachelors not real ones. Unlike most of us with real quals.
------
yes, i do absolutely, and you and everyone should know thats the joke.
i have 20 virtuals and zero reals.
i am not going to ever pretend any different.
but that puts me in the middle position in some senses.
my headaches are always caused by the problem that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.
I don't have a problem with claiming virtuals unless your lying.
Jaques claiming anything with the word "social" in it unless its
social economics is frankly patheticly transparent and absurd lying.
Hes an admirable economist and a fantastic artist.
hes even actually a very good architect and a passible civil engineer.
But to claim "human elements" or psychohistory or tell us about a collapse like its supposed to happen and like he doesn't get it that smart evolution is preventing it using his ideas...
i mean... how sad is that really?
Jaques is either evil or he doesn't understand that his ideas
are what can prevent the collapse.
so he tells us all to just wait until after.
No. I'm a man of right action, and hes an admirable guy, but
between us, I'm the psycho historian and i'm the one thats worth
actually investing all of the attention into.
thats usually how it is.
If the conversation and relationship were two way that would be fine. Jaques and i would be total buddies if i was his neighbor.
But jaques employs an evil flapper named VTV. the end.
and overcompensates for not having a full spectrum knowledge base
by lying about it.
How hard does that make my life? i have to walk around and convince people that my virtual credentials are worth not laughing at talking to people like you who spent hard time working the hard way for them.
TVP becomes the bottom balloon eclipsing the light you'd see
from other people like me and really all of us.
the less relevant they become and the more we solve the problems
together the farther out it all goes.
Jaques becomes truly irrelevant when i and RBEF prevent the collapse.
how long will that take? how much help do i have?
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=393&t=2027
prometheuspan said this on April 24, 2010 at 6:47 pm | Reply

Synopsis
Fluid social change can only materialize if two circumstances are met. One, the human value system, which consists of our understandings and beliefs, must be updated and changed through education and thoughtful introspection. Two, the environment surrounding that value system must change to support the new world view. The interaction between a person's value system and their environment is what influences human behavior.
For example, in our culture, "ethics" is really a matter of degree, for our social system promotes and rewards competition and self-interest. This perspective doesn't just "lead" to aberrant behavior... it creates it directly. Corruption is the norm in our society and most people do not see this, for since the society supports this behavior, it is considered right and normal... or as a matter of degree.
Given this understanding, there is a fallacy that has emerged where certain groups are deemed "corrupt" and everyone else is "good". This is the age old "us and them" world view which has no basis empirically, for it is, again, all a matter of degree.
For example, there is a large movement of people who constantly talk about "The New World Order" and this notion that there is an elite group of people who have been trying to take over the world for a long time and have manipulated society in various ways to further their goals.
This, of course, is true to a certain extent.
BUT, the failure of awareness is that this "group" is not a group at all. It is a tendency.
If you took out all the people at the top who are engaged in global hegemonic rule, it would simply be a matter of time before another group stepped in to seek the same ambition. Therefore, it isn't the individual people or groups that are the problem. It is actually the conditions upon which those people have been accustomed and indoctrinated by. Of course, many argue against this view with the escapist notion that it is "human nature" that causes this competition and need for dominance. This is unsupported by the facts. In reality, we are nearly clean slates when we are born and it is our environment that shapes who we are and how we behave.
Therefore, in order for TRUE change to occur, we must spend less time battling the products of this sick social structure and more time trying to change the root causes. As difficult and daunting as it may be to think this way, it is the only way our world will change for the better.
We can continue to stomp on the ants coming out from under the refrigerator, but until we remove the spoiled food behind it, they are just going to keep coming.
prometheuspan said this on April 24, 2010 at 7:57 pm | Reply

ever see meat out looking conspicuously like easy prey?
lets get threads on these science topics. I am ready to show where
the holes are and where the good points are in all of their master documents.
In short...
lets get this expose of TVP on theroad? shall we?
i wouldn't want to be late with my very important date to
try to catch the grim reaper on film when he hoes TVP down.
:)
prometheuspan said this on April 24, 2010 at 8:00 pm | Reply

Therefore, in order for TRUE change to occur, we must spend less time battling the products of this sick social structure and more time trying to change the root causes. A
-------
it helps to actually get the part above about the "us versus them" modality and not emulate it as admins and moderators on the forum
and etc.
so them talking here about all of this is orwellian because they don't offer real change; they offer us-wait-and-see-what post-apaclaypse-looksliketheorism... "Collapse theory."
they are just the stuckness on the door and don't open the door out.
and in fact its as if they are saying "do nothing and just let yourselves all go quietely.. "it won't be so baaaaahhhhd...."
TVP is not showing me change; its showing me stuckness over the very issue it raises but then fails to address in depth.
Its nice to have a pretty sounding happy happy joy joy.
Show pj. show me the meta process flow charts.
I have mine handy anytime and they are posted publicly at rbef,...
prometheuspan on April 24, 2010 at 8:06 pm | Reply

"Fluid social change can only materialize if two circumstances are met. "
only two?
thats pretty weak.
let me give you ten more frank vectors and we can then all laugh.
1. Egotism
2. pack psychology
3. group think
4. mob psychology
5. cult psychology
6. paradigmology
7. through the looking glass
8. out of the box
9. on the the other sidhe
10 of non reality...
11. A useful formal process to deal with the human tendency toward digression and distraction; a way to harnass and cross analayse
mere conversation and derive a better signal to noise ratio.
12. A useful metaprocess to organize collaborative labor around
and to deal wisely with the problems central and connected to conflict.
prometheuspan said this on April 24, 2010 at 8:11 pm | Reply

I really like this blog and check it often to see the articles and discussions. Thanks for keeping it active. Sadly I have little ability to contribute. But have thought of a few possible topics that may be worth writing articles about, should you be interested in taking the ball and running with it. Here they are;
- Micromanagement in all the wrong places. The contradictions in TVP's system of freedom.
You can have and do anything and everything in TVP, except when management arbitrarily decides that you can't. I.E. Cars won't exist because they are wasteful, but you can have kind of car you want, but there will be only one perfect type of car.
- VTV's authoritarian tendencies: From 7/11 cashier to would-be World Dictator.
I.E. Ad Hominims are not allowed, unless you are VTV or one of his brown shirts.
- Every economy is a "resource based economy".
Money is just a tool. Replacing it with "resources" changes nothing in practice.
- TVP requires eugenics & euthanasia to maintain population stability.
In a world of finite resources, an unlimited amount of people can't consume an unlimited amount of stuff. Roxanne has stated as much in lectures available on youTube. They claim people will volunteer not to reproduce.
- TVP: Blueprint for an unending dystopian nightmare.
Is it just a coincidence that the society they describe is the same as the society described in any number of dystopian science fiction books? They say its laughable to compare. But is it really?
- Was Peter Merola short-selling bank stocks while promoting a boycott of specific banks in Addendum? (He admitted short-term equities trading in a pre-TZM Village Voice article. Is he using his followers to attempt to move stock prices by way of strategic propaganda endeavors?
- Backlash of Lies: Postmortem of The Zeitgeist Movement
The world Tour is underway, so the cash in is nearing completion. Peter Merola is on extended hiatus, with no stated expectation of return. The forum is 20 moderators, 10 old-school members, and a revolving group of neophytes that leave after a few posts. The movement is on its death bead, if not dead and buried entirely.
Note to admin; You may wish to consider not authorizing this post, toward the interest of developing such topics as articles in full. I only posted it here because I don't have your email.
Anathema said this on April 24, 2010 at 10:32 pm | Reply

- Was Peter Merola short-selling bank stocks while promoting a boycott of specific banks in Addendum? (He admitted short-term equities trading in a pre-TZM Village Voice article. Is he using his followers to attempt to move stock prices by way of strategic propaganda endeavors?
This I like, you make me wonder here because you are correct in saying he was trading, and he did make a lot of money from it, he has since stated he has stopped, but what you said above is a fine piece of inquisitive thinking, perhaps unprovable unless we checked his stocks and sales accounts. But he was asking people to avoid banks and this could affect stock prices if a lot of people did, and he bought a load while they were cheap able to sell later at a substantial profit ?
anticultist said this on April 24, 2010 at 11:23 pm | Reply

I'm definitely not an expert on this by any stretch of the imagination... But there is such a thing as "short-selling". Which, as I understand it, is betting against a stock (betting it will fall) without having to even purchase the stock at any point.
As an aside, Goldman Sachs has been taking heat lately for selling financial instruments, claiming they were AAA investments, while simultaneously & secretly betting they would fail (AKA short-selling). Again, this is just my understanding.
The key point (of course) is not that Peter Merola encouraged boycotts of banks, but that he encouraged boycotts of SPECIFIC banks. When a market trader is promoting, by use of propaganda, the boycott of specific publicly traded companies, that is indeed an opportunity to financially benefit in a way that may implicate corruption.
I don't know how one would find out what he was trading at the time, if anything. But the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC.gov) would certainly be interested to know if that kind of securities fraud was being committed.
Anathema said this on April 25, 2010 at 12:20 am | Reply

Yeah thats an interesting angle that right there.
Regarding the other matters you presented, I am sure someone might take you up on them within this thread.
Regarding this one here:
- VTV's authoritarian tendencies: From 7/11 cashier to would-be World Dictator.
I.E. Ad Hominims are not allowed, unless you are VTV or one of his brown shirts.
This guy is not worth a page of this blog to himself as his ego is already hyperinflated, so I think a few passing comments about him here and there are sufficient, he is a bell end, there thats my input on him done.
anticultist said this on April 25, 2010 at 12:32 am | Reply

- VTV's authoritarian tendencies: From 7/11 cashier to would-be World Dictator.
I.E. Ad Hominims are not allowed, unless you are VTV or one of his brown shirts.
thats the problem in a nut shell right there. VTV can lie and attack and distort about me, while i dance circles around him.
what he can't do is make a valid argument, and thats why hes forced to lock the thread and ban me. I make him look stupid, and evil, because thats what he is when your not butt kissing him.
prometheuspan said this on April 25, 2010 at 9:09 am | Reply

"or maybe the greek chapter have no idea whats really going on in zeitgeist due to poor communication ?
If this guy is a coordinator of an official chapter or an official greek spokesperson for this movement, then they really should make sure they have fully researched and got their facts straight before putting them onto national tv and then the internet."

Perhaps in some of the european chapters they are better organised and honest than the us/global site.Your right in that there maybe a lack of communication between the chapters and that is another major flaw.One chapter may have its act together and be genuine while others may not and there maybe no way of them effectively communicating to each other or organising anything.In regards to them not knowing about the other flaws like transparency issus,independant groups and the behaviour of Peter and co. most of these TZM criticism blogs(like this one,Zeitgeist Debate and Beyond TVP) as far as I know are only in english.I mean the whole movement is not only disorganised in the sense of the top-dowm pyramid dictatorship we have going on here but also the fact that each chapter are pulling in different directions.Since PJ,RM and JF seem to trying to keep this as underground as possible away from the pundits,experts and journalists who could easily expose them I doubt they would have liked to have seen the Greek and Latvian chapters going on TV - since they are concerned of only keeping this an online thing(all three can live the rest of their lives living off the hard work of say at least several hundred thousand die hard fans).This is my friend is why its gonna flop under its own weight BIG TIME.Its up to everyone here to get the message to the non us/global chapters about the RBEF,RBOSE etc. and in particular this blog....and Google Translator!
Shane Nolan said this on April 28, 2010 at 12:54 pm | Reply

I have thoughts today to share. Mumbling ranting, whatevahs.
I have seen the shape of this thing in my mind now very clearly.
And so my mind has layed out a plan or path for the easiest possible route to utterly destroy TVP/TZM.
There are two main branches on that tree. The first is to do the work they can't do because of being incompetent. To perform
the live research, references checking, and working of the problems, which demonstrates how that is done and which shows the difference between their stuckness and real right action.
We have begun this with this thread but this is only a start.
RBEF is in any case at that moment in its evolution. And I am the Research Coordinator. So I am going to be exploring the sciences
and using my knowledge of them to try to get other people going, point the direction to them.
The other half is the dark half. The dark half is running analysis of their threads and showing them to be abusive to person after person after person after person.
We need both sides and we need both sides lucidly. Without solving the problems we are only attacking, and without pointing out the abuse, we would only be doing their work for them.
I'm asking for your help to immediately destroy TVP/TZM based on these two primary tactics.
I will be exploring the sciences on RBEF and I will want to see all of the documents and work that TVP/ TZM has done, as we climb up past all of that- very quickly, this month. I need people to link me to their documents on those brainstorming
threads. I need people to help me even run google and show the larger meta movement what online research looks like.
I am in contact with RBOSE a tiny bit, and am going to get on facebook today. Lets gather our forces together and marshall them
up and be effective, lucid, and focused.
In regard to many other issues about them, their finances, their personal lives, and etc, those are interesting issues, but they don;t have the simple and direct bite of 20 links and 20 quotes of VTVs Ad hominems against 20 different people just asking hard questions.
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=98&t=1305&start=60
This is where i have addressed RBEF over this.
http://www.rbefoundation.com/viewgroup.php?f=389
and this is the brain storm area.
I will need to create explorations for 20 sciences, a transition plan that rocks, fill out a whole lot more starter up threads for projects, (i have hundreds of models I have designed on my hard drive.) And be well on our way to writing 50 textbooks by the end of this month.
Each of those textbooks is going to come together as a research project, and in each case I'm going to want to know everything that TVP/TZM has ever managed to put together on said topic.
This will turn out to be very little, spread over 5 documents and 20 threads, which will be a fine point to make each time.
This information will create documents which will be open source and RBOSE and other groups will be free to use them on their sites.
What we need tho is to come together right now, and get this done.
I hope that i can count on your participation and support.
prometheuspan said this on April 30, 2010 at 11:26 pm | Reply

I don't think anything needs to be done to help collapse TZM/TVP as the management has done everything in its power to destroy itself. And toward that end, have had great success.
Now they have an entry test at the forum. Now, at a time when even the old-school members are fleeing like its last call on the Titanic. Just brilliant. They don't seem to realize that the more people know about the subject, the less interested they are in "joining". The irony is found in the fact that a troll is much more likely to get in, as they know more about the movement than any genuinely interested person would.
Some say they have 700,000 members. Some say its 400,000. Others say its 300,000. I would wager that its really closer to 500 people who only want to chat on a forum that they are increasingly being shut out of. Confirming a gmail address does not equal being a member of a social movement FFS.
Tips for gorilla forum warfare: Join and pretend to be in support of the project, while acting like such an imbecile that any remaining intelligent person will flee to escape association. The brown shirts will never be able to determine if you are a subversive troll, or a normal moronic member. (If you go in and criticize, they just insta-delete and forget about it.)
But then, why bother. Did you hear the most recent US meeting? Nobody even bothered to show up. VTV doesn't even do a show anymore. Jaque and crew are on a speaking vacation, er, I mean tour. And PJ is busy collecting the remnants of the new-age hippy poon that still thinks he's cool. Put a fork in it. It's done.
But if one were set on making an offensive, this is the time to do it. They are exceedingly weak at this moment.
BTW, VTV asked for people to create a logo for his blog. So I did; http://i47.tinypic.com/np50np.jpg Then he banned me, deleted my submission and closed the "competition". If you're reading this VTV, please reconsider! /sadface
Anathema said this on May 2, 2010 at 12:52 am | Reply

its probably true that nothing per sey needs to be done for it to fall, the only question is how long it will take.
Their quiz is so orwellian its painful. It had me laughing for 20 minutes.
The answers they want are obvious, but the real answers are not what your supposed to answer. which is a hoot.
The thing is, we need to understand that as this ship sinks so does RBE unless theres a boat that looks worthy to carry people.
AND, while it is now sinking slowly, about 6 months or so, it can be helped down considerably and in many ways that is actually far kinder.
The core issue is that people need to see it for what it is or people will just keep repeating the problem.
I'm a bit proud of getting banned from the "hypography " forum.
It may seem like a change of topic, but, bear with me for a sec.
You see, they claim to be a science forum, but they aren't. They are a pack psychology groupthink ego trip and thats all that they can ever be, because the mods are using bias, assault, ad hominems, passive manipulative aggression, and assorted carot and stick orwellian measures to make people tow their line. This includes their global warming denialism thread, or their thread which was started out of my sign on which was about building new space vehicles in which i get to listen to everyone give me the same old lame BS about how its all impossible- using science arguments that are 40 years old.
In short, they are ignorant and clueless, and even the smart ones amongst them are out of date and are never really challenged to learn anything new; because of the same old problem you have everywhere.
Without a solid meta process and real moderation techniques ans skills, 99 percent of the forums and would be social movements out there are actually abusive and actually function despite their stated claims or goals to keep people mentally trapped and caged.
Thats the core problem of all problems, and unless people wake up to that, they will always get duped.
TVP presents itself as case in point and exhibit A.
It will never matter what good they think they would like to do in the world because of the evil that they do instead.
The only way out is for people to see that; and for us all to quit doing it.
The only way out is to confront the abuser and the abusers issues;
thats the only therapy thats fast and quick and real. Otherwise everybodies going to need 50 years of therapy and thats not going to allow RBE to happen.
In short, it is our responsibility to make sure that this thing goes down as quickly as as painlessly as possible, and that people have a clear sense of where to go instead.
If it goes down slowly it only gets more abusive as time goes on; as they clench their fists to hold on it slips through their grasp; but they will clench and clench harder and that means they will get worse and worse.
The need for a "quiz" is a proof that its already well past several iterations of this.
The problem with your idea of being an imbecile troll is that this is what ten people are already doing; transparently.
I could play admin moderator the other direction and weed out game player trolls like rodents in a garden.
The other problem is those people don't solve humanities problems they only add to TVPs entropy.
My plan is simple in two parts.
1. Do all of the research open source and on line which they are too crooked and incompetent to do or even imagine or consider.
This means writing 50 textbooks; which was something btw I had in mind to do anyways.
I could do it alone in fact if i could only type 100 times faster.
Part 2 is focus in on the actual incidences of abuse, threads and irc chats and etc where its clear that they are abusing people.
Catalog it, organize it, put it up on a wiki; make TVP the character poster child for our novel on cults and system abuse.
Theres never been a better opportunity. Also, their forum probably has a lifespan left in only a year at most, so we will be doing them the favor of saving the materials from their threads.
In short, we need to raid TVP for all of the gems that the population has tried to invest, show how those gems were trampled under by the swine that VTV and thunder and azzy are, and then organize that into what will actually survive after the lawsuits really start to pick up.
If i had the money i could put an injunction against them and shut down their site now.
Lying transparently about other people is called libel and slander.
Its usually difficult to prove because most people aren't dumb enough to actually cross those lines.
In this case its a slam dunk.
I'm not the only one, and I won;t be the last. As TVP flushes itself down the toilet, expect to hear more and more lawsuits cropping up.
Sooner or later the forum will be shut down by a judge.
Hypography on the other hand is a different sort of example.
What they fail to understand is that they have now given me license to do the same thing to them that anticultist has done to TVP but in a different way.
I can use their materials and copy their threads out, and theres nothing that they can any longer do to stop me, because they would be the ones found guilty of abuse and even slander in a court, and I have every right to the threads i participated in.
In short, they just sold me their entire forum, whose materials i will now raid for interest and amusement.
One of the attacks that the admin made against me was that i was posting links to rbef and thus "competing" with his forum.
No, i was collaborating. But, now that hes accidentally confessed via his paranoid delusions whats going on for him, ....
If you were an ignorant troll pretending to have knowledge in a science forum, and running a scam to coerce people into global warming denialism; the last thing you'd want is somebody who can see through all of that BS and whos not going to be manipulated.
Over the long term then, he loses, because he can't compete with me. I can eventually claim all of that turf, its only a matter of time.
The reason for this is simple. While right now people are happy to just chat, they would be happier even with an information service which wasn't orwellian- they just don't know that yet.
When we talk about RBE most people think about physical goods and services. They forget that we live in what is called an information economy- which is actually a propaganda economy.
Information is the first level. We have to build an RBE for truth and information first, and then one in physical reality.
That takes 100 times more lucidity and knowledge than those people have- it takes an interdisciplinary expert to even see how those solutions play out, or how to organize people to be collaborative instead of chit chat or argue.
prometheuspan said this on May 2, 2010 at 4:25 am | Reply

have you collected these threads and evidence somewhere yet?whats th url? Id like to help
Shane Nolan said this on May 2, 2010 at 12:53 pm | Reply

http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=98&t=1305&start=60
anticultist said this on May 2, 2010 at 2:03 pm

I've been trying to keep up with this thread and wanted to reply. If I missed anything, let me know.
I'm not sure what you mean by Global Warming Denialism ProMetTheUsSpan, the only time I heard Peter Joseph talk about it (Global Warming) was on the Alex Jones' interview right after Zeitgeist: Addendum came out and he was brief on it as to not give any position - being agnostic on it. If he has changed his position and you can point that out to me, let me know. I'll be willing to look it up. Now, if the moderators are taking that position of Global Warming Denialism on the forums along with the majority, then I can see how you could develop that perception.
Then you say this:
"Jaques is no sociologist or Psychohistorian."
That's true, but with all the fields he has explored in his life, I think he can be considered as a multi-disciplinarian. I understand what you mean though, he's not licensed in those areas.
I would agree with you about Nanos and Gavin, it's only a matter of time before they are called level 3 trolls:
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=rules
What an eye sore.
"I rather like Michio Kaku personally, I find him easily accessable and academically sound on most of his claims about futurism."
I agree, his record speaks for itself.
As far as the links of criticism or moderation abuse, I threw in a lot of links in that thread in RBEF and joined up - hoping for future RBOSE and RBEF collaborations. I can see it happening. I think I already scanned the whole FORUM in TZM for all the terrible threads. Hopefully ProMeTheUsPan puts all that in his new WIKI page here and get 20 good examples of unprofessional and/or abusive behavior from Moderation, even criticism for the movement in general - from my help:
http://ni4d-issues.rbefoundation.com/index.php?title=Main_Page
I'll keep it coming as they keep posting. I wouldn't be surprised if they read this thread and found the links I posted and went back to their FORUMS and deleted everything I listed. Extreme forms of copying and pasting might have to happen. They have censored many things before.
I might in the future write a paragraph or two on each thread listed to expose some situations. The things that were endure were just pretty awful. Being a TZM member must be pretty awful.
And yeah, that whole LOGO contest thing for VTV goes against the TZM principles. All it does is enforce competition. He always comes off commercial to me and it gets on my nerves. If you listen to his most recent shows, he'll have an intro clip with Peter Joseph shouting out that "you're now listening to V-Radio" or something like that. It's disgusting:
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=229&id=230945&limit=10&limitstart=40#241309
I swear he's the new Alex Jones.
And as far as the Greece Chapter goes, I just found that video funny for the same reasons and if there is no retraction on their behalf, I will look at the Zeitgeist Movement even more crooked at this point.
I know, I know... I'm so cynical now.
And in the Latvia video is said one million people celebrated ZDAY in 2010. I'm sorry, but that's BS (Bad Science). They don't even have those type of numbers. The statistics they have now are easily questioned as Anathema pointed out.
It was said on 0:31.
Then right after it says the movement is popular and scandalous? Scandalous? Hmmm...
Maybe a bad translation?:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=scandolous
Have fun with that.
Language barriers can be questioned too though.
But the only scientific thing I see happening with the Zeitgeist Movement is them developing Earth 2 Venus:
http://tzmdevelopers.com
It's on their agenda along with other websites and this project is supposedly going to help collect all the information in the world in a way to survey the planet's resources. I'm sure it's going to be something beta and not actually collecting information in real-time (like poodwaddle.com), but something else for everyone in the Zeitgeist Movement to view to be as tangible in the future. But everything else seems to be promotion and collecting. Maybe the scientific method can be applied this way:
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/wiki/index.php?title=From_Earth_to_Venus
At least some people are catching on though:
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=search&q=&q=poodwaddle
If the ideas of Herbert Marcuse were peer-reviewed, then I can see Jacque Fresco ideas easily being peer-reviewed as well easily. He's someone I suggest everyone should look up:
http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/01/03/herbert-marcuse-the-forerunner-to-jacque-frescos-ideas/
"Why is Jacque Fresco so worried about people stealing his designs? Can't he just patent them and hire a lawyer?
And why would it be bad if someone did steal his designs? Let's say that a car company ripped off his idea for putting radar devices in the car to prevent them from hitting each other. Who care's if the car companies would make money off of this -people's lives could be saved by this. Why would he hide away his supposedly genius inventions like this, it seems selfish."
It reminds me of the movie "Flash Of Genius":

For him being in Venus, Florida for 3 decades plus, you would think that he has already been ready to patent everything, but who knows. If I started to make inventions, that's what I would do. But then again, patents cost money, rent requires money and so on. But hey, I'm not a legal expert and I don't know how they manage their money either.
"Where is Jaque's memory metals cars in real time? Where are we going to get energy from? Where are we gonig to get the resources to build this? Who will build it? Where is the automation going to come from? Who will build the robots? This is lame as hell Jaque is stuck in the 1950′s mickey mouse club..."
All good questions and I find it funny you used the Mickey Mouse analogy:

It has been used by them as well.
Sorry for the scatter-brain reply, a lot to keep up with here.
BranManFloMore said this on May 2, 2010 at 5:03 pm | Reply

regarding their earth to venus project:
http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/01/01/the-problems-with-venus-projects-resource-survey/
anticultist said this on May 2, 2010 at 6:09 pm | Reply

Me and ProMeTheUsPan have been talking about this a bit more:
http://rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=393&t=2208
It seems like mission impossible still, I don't mean to sound pessimistic.
BranManFloMore said this on May 19, 2010 at 10:25 pm

"have you collected these threads and evidence somewhere yet?whats th url? Id like to help"
thats just started. still not sure where to
have the party. RBEF has folks in it that aren't happy about us attacking tvp and I'm trying to be mindful of them.
This project for me actually really starts monday.. tomorrow.
:)
prometheuspan said this on May 2, 2010 at 10:46 pm | Reply

I can understand that, well - I guess you can keep it all here then:
http://rbose.org/wiki/User:Prometheuspan
Under your own profile with RBOSE. And thanks for doing it this way.
:)
BranManFloMore said this on May 2, 2010 at 11:07 pm | Reply

Your intro states: " .... The Zeitgeist Movement have absolutely no actual data they have gathered". What leads to that statement ?
I have watched the "Zeitgeist Addendum" video and it's clear that the presentation of the procedures used to put money into circulation in the USA are accurate.
Please explain.
Ayran Dreger said this on May 19, 2010 at 9:56 pm | Reply

They have no data they have collated themselves and have no scientific evidence to verify their main objective ---> The Venus Project
They are the activist arm of it after all. And its their sole function to bring it about.
With anti credentialism, no scientists, no evidence of their own, no research, no physical evidence, no practical experience and a loada empty words I stand with what was said.
I have watched the "Zeitgeist Addendum" video and it's clear that the presentation of the procedures used to put money into circulation in the USA are accurate.
Goto conspiracy science.com and ask them about the monetary system in the shitegeist movies.
anticultist said this on May 19, 2010 at 10:05 pm | Reply

"I have watched the "Zeitgeist Addendum" video and it's clear that the presentation of the procedures used to put money into circulation in the USA are accurate.
Please explain." this forum is inadequate to the problem of covering this in depth and its been rdundantly covered elsewhere. While the assorted Z videos have some very good and strong points, they are transparently the works of an uneducated person if you happen to be educated in those fields. Since I am, I can only tell you that its sad when you ruin an otherwise good argument with an ignorant and extravagant error. or 10. In short, while there is some good information there in general principle, he is in fact so completely clue less that like Al Gore he ends up making his presentation a cheap straw man argument for the rest of us to have to defend. Yes our money system is flawed and corrupt and for all of the main reasons Z videos suggest. The problem is that the arguments they use are unfortunately based in the kind of simplified rhetorical version of reality which an expert gives to a layperson. And he gets it thus wrong. Badly wrong. Pathetically wrong. Laughably wrong.
All he would need to do to fix this is actually find actual experts. Since all they can do is play credential paranoid delusional mindgames with themselves, they can never listen to expert information and thus must always remain ignorant and opinionated but squaking a good line for those that don't know any better.
The tragedy is PJs loss. Hes mostly right but just enough wrong to
drive a truck through. If he had any sense he would use help to shore up those holes, instead of making them larger by pretending to have knowledge he doesn't.
prometheuspan said this on May 19, 2010 at 10:23 pm | Reply

Anticultist blog comments continue...
http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/forum/5539/archiving-anticultist-blog-on-sp/3/#reply-64a32e9c


Click to get back t

Click to get back to topic starter



Anticultist blog comments continue...

well, anticultist, i think that point does need a shout out.
The idea or inference that somehow I'm the one whos lacking in right action is particularly ludicrous, given that I'm the one solving the problems, making the models, working the assorted splinter groups,
dealing with personal psychologies, and etc.
These guys can't even manage a sketchup model and they want to tell me I'm just not getting a path of right action. Its ludicrous.
All of these groups are increasingly looking ludicrous. I say to them; "Show me your design process and your science facts. Or shut up."
"Again, you prove your whole position of denouncing TZM/TVP stems from some personal interactions with a small number of people."
the ones in charge, who, now have generated secret second accounts in order to hide their evil actions behind a cloak of secrecy.
What part of "secret police= fascism" don't you understand?
"You place your emotional interactions higher than the priority of actually solving these issues."
No, I work to solve these issues. You haven't done squat. You have attacked me and blithered on, and you are wasting time i might otherwise spend drawing a building or three. In short, you have no path of right action and neither does TZM. Even Pjs new energy videos are material stolen right out from under MY treatment as posted on their forum.
I don't care, and they are free to keep on stealing. But its MY work not theirs, and I'm the one doing it, not them.
"As if such attitude is going to help us solve these issues."
You haven't put in a single iota of problem solving process you can point at. not one. I have in fact done all of the work and more work as a single individual than all of TZM towards designing a new civilization and solving these problems.
"Hope you can get over your personal issues."
i don't have any personal issues to get over. I'm the only one doing any work.
-------------------
1. There are many different ways to derive energy.
2. Each of these methods has different relationships with the environment
3. Each of these methods has different costs and different benefits
4. Each of the these methods has different pros and cons.
5. A partial list of methods; oil, coal, shale, wood, gas, Biofuels (a. food crop, b. hemp crop c. algae) Solar, Thermal Solar, Wind, Tidal, Geothermal, Hydrogen, Hydrolic, Zero Point, Nuclear.
6. Oils relationships with the environment are
a. oil is ancient organic material that has undergone geological processes.
b. oil is removed from the ground via oil wells. Ie oil is mined from the Earth.
c. oil is burned in order to get heat and chemical reaction to create the energy.
d. burning it creates smoke. the smoke is toxic. it is multiply toxic to the ecosystem in multiple ways.
e. its causing global warming
f. it causes cancer
g. it causes acid rain
h. thus it hurts humans personally and the whole ecosystem as whole in these different ways.
23. Summary of findings.
a. Geothermal, Solar, Wind, Tidal, and Hydrogen Technologies together provide a clear and easy path towards green and sustainable energy.
b. Geothermal energy specifically is the solution which a realistic green energy infrastructure should be rooted in.
c. It is reasonable to project a total holistic solution in which 80 percent of our energy comes from geothermal, 10 percent from Solar, 5 percent from
Wind, and 5 percent from Tidal.
d. It is also worth mentioning that electric cars are a current and viable technology.
e. This is all of it simply a sumary of known and provable science fact. The only reason why most people don't know all of this is that oil companies
and rich evil jerks have spent billions of dollars to flood the public with propaganda and misinformation.
f. The other strategy of the evil empire jerks is to promote energy resources such as biofuels or nuclear power which create a situation of extreme expense so that they can continue to exploit our need for energy in order to make money. A Geothermally based energy infrastructure would provide
extremely cheap energy (especially over the long term) and this would be the death of the energy industry.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 1:36 am | Reply

"No, I've repeatedly accepted that he tried to express himself and it didn't get along with the forum admins, so now he derides the whole movement."
There is no movement. There is only stuckness. That is not me deriding, that is me pointing out fact.
"That's not in dispute.
What I'm saying, what seems to be missing, is that none of that is more important than solving the inherit issues."
And I'm the only one working diligently to solve the issues, whilst TZM runs in circles with its charlatans rat maze.
"That there is more to these issues than personal squabbles."
I agree, and that was my point to VTV and why he banned me.
"If he was serious about solving these issues, he'd know that "together is better" and wouldn't let some minor squabbles become more important than the efforts."
Minor squabbles?
WAKE UP! There is nothing minor about the simple fact that these are evil basterds and charlatans and parasites, that this is not a movement, because it can't move, and not social, instead anti social.
Its NOT a social movement, its a cult of personality in three tiers. If you want to get together and work on solving problems, by all means, thats what I do other than when i come here to knock down the big messy zombie cult thats only in the way.
"Should be clear enough for you, no? (am ignoring your obvious attempts at antagonism)"
You are the one who lacks clarity on this.
Everything that could be done to give them the benefit of the doubt and help them was done. That included giving them posts about NVC to work with, giving them posts about how to solve their problems in a real way, and even trying to be tactically nice to VTV even while he was attacking me.
I gave them 900 posts more than they deserve- especially when i saw right through them before i even posted.
I posted in their defense even, all the while knowing that i was actually being somewhat hypocritical.
I did everything humanly possible to help them and they proved diligently that they are nothing but evil basterds and social parasites.
That isn't me being mean to them, its a simple truth and in fact an understatement.
They aren't solving any problems and the very best that they can do to solve problems is to steal ideas from people like me and pretend they came up with those ideas themselves.
THEY are the ones with the issues, not me.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 1:45 am | Reply

Haha, yeah, maybe if you repeat it enough, you can believe it.
Or, instead of playing blame game, you can grow up and re-focus your energies on being effective within the movement, not letting some personal differences with 0.00001% of the movement's member base slow you down.
Just a thought.
Joseph Matthew said this on July 17, 2010 at 2:08 am | Reply

You need to take some of your own medicine and quit blaming others and go do something constructive.
That way I and all the others who come here dont have to put up with reading your verbal diorrhea, and you can change the world with your fantasy mind online elsewhere.
Just a tip for you, ignoring points made to you, arrogance and being a wanker online doesnt help you or your pet project one bit.
anticultist said this on July 17, 2010 at 2:15 am

" If we study memetics, we discover that mind viruses commonly don't go the direction the instigators intend. In stead, they choose their own direction."
This is true, and what we find for that principle in TZM is that this is why they spanw splinter group after splinter groups. The
epistomological value of their wedge issues are so high that as soon as people realize that TZM is stuck, they set out to try to
work on it themselves. At last count there are just under ten such splinter groups.
"Now add this to the chaos theory concept of attractors and what you get is that if TZM is near enough to the proper attractors, reality will take over and lead it to where it belongs."
There is that tendency, and its neat to have somebody bringing up these psychohistory points. However, status quo has been formed and is now protected by secret police. The energy capacity for staying stuck is thus far stronger than the energy capacity for real growth, and this might be expressed as a car up against a brick wall, spinning out its tires until its got only rims.
They can't progress or move, because it is their choice to maintain a status quo. As long as they make that choice they can maintain that status quo in their own forum. What they can not do is control the outcomes for the splinter groups which will continue to form as the cycle of disenchantment continues.
In this, to some extent, you are right. Eventually those attractors will push towards real right action, but only as a rebellion against the stuckness, and only because people will form splinter groups.
"So the question is: is it close enough to the proper attractors?"
Absolutely, its got all of the right attractors. Its also got a perfect replica model of Hitlers Germany, complete with SS.
The problem is which of those forces are actually dominant.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 2:12 am | Reply

you might make a comparison to a vore flower. Its got all the right attractors. A suitcase full of money, what appear to be naked and horny virgins, laying about the tree, a pile of gold coins, a map to eden...
all of the right attractors. But its still a vore plant.
It came up with all the right attractors in order to attract people into the trap. Evolution raised it up to generate better and better and better attractors. But. It is still a vore plant.
To be fair, what happened is that vtv and thunder are evli people who got themselves into the middle of something which wanted to be a pure and good thing.
But. Its still a vore plant.
Now, you can go have fun with the maidens and dip your hand into the gold coins and even the suitcase full of money...
but ...
you should notice that theres something attached to your foot, that won't let go, and that its pumping you full of feel good drugs while you start to spin in the dizzy heights.
Yep.
Its just a vore plant.
No amount of right attractors can change the nature of the beast.
And it will eat you and your time and energy and money and our civilizations chances for positive social change- unless you and eveyrbody else can be lucid enough not to fall for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorarephilia
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 2:25 am | Reply

hmmmm. well, if they are truly stuck, then something will have to push them over. As far as splinter group goes... diversity is necessary for group intelligence. There must be splinter groups in order for this movement to own the intelligence it needs. The question perhaps is how these groups interact with one another. The proper behavior of all is to amicably accept the necessity of diversity. It so happens that diversity is a natural attractor of its own, guaranteeing to begin with that TZM would split up into groups. It will be the interplay of these splinter groups which defines the true future of the movement. The proper behavior for TZM and its splinter groups is to acknowledge each other as friends rather than enemies, as the people involved are very like-minded even if they have disagreements, and to keep track of each other and argue with each other when they have time to spare. In this manner, information will inevitably flow at some rate between the groups. Attempting to coalesce the groups entirely would be a mistake, as that would incur a loss of diversity. The groups must compete against each other regarding their various merits. And the heat of competition will be that which supplies the energy required to enforce evolution amongst all of the groups. Ideally, the people would be aware of this necessary process, and accept it for its mathematical inevitability and deal with it in an optimized fashion.
Matt S said this on July 17, 2010 at 4:02 am | Reply

"Haha, yeah, maybe if you repeat it enough, you can believe it."
i don't need to repeat it or believe it, it is what is real.
"Or, instead of playing blame game, you can grow up and re-focus your energies on being effective within the movement,"
the movement has rejected me. there is no operating within the movement i have been ejected.
I am not playing any blame game. They are evil basterds. WHAT PART OF THEY ARE EVIL BASTERDS DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?
"not letting some personal differences with 0.00001% of the movement's member base slow you down.
Just a thought."
A pointless thought. This is not the member base, this is the leadership. I tried to resolve such difference and was banned.
Any energy given to them is energy wasted. Working within an abusive and evil cult is not doing anything to help humanity.
I'm not here to be one more attractor for the vore plant.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 2:38 am | Reply

I don't fully understand why, but it seems that you are not properly using the word attractor. The attractors of this system are not particular people, or money, or virgins. They are system structures which can withstand the test of time. The question that arises here is whether a ZM that is stuck can withstand the test of time without change. My personal belief is... no it can't, because they are too close to genuine attractors that will impose pressures upon a stuck structure. This blog is an example of just such a pressure. But the pressure will be more pervasive than just a few people who have complaints. The pressure will impose itself on all of the members of the ZM in its own manner and form.
Matt S said this on July 17, 2010 at 4:10 am | Reply

Such pressure will be applied should they gain any notoriety in the outside world off the internet and off their forum. Without any scientific data/research and the public knowledge of them being a conspiracy theory based movement, this alone will either force them to retreat and re evaluate, die a sudden embarassing death, or admit wrong doing and evolve.
anticultist said this on July 17, 2010 at 4:14 am

"If you say so.
Or, if you're working within a group and doing so in a civil way, with mutual respect, "
I gave vtv and thunder respect even as they were attacking me.
it is their issue, not mine, that creates this problem.
i gave them respect, they are evil basterds.
AGAIN;
WHAT PART OF THEY ARE EVIL BASTERDS DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?
"then you shouldn't have problems. If you still do, then find others. It's no different than real life."
In real life I would either whoop their pathetic asses in hand to hand combat or i'd whoop their pathetic asses in argument. This is not real life, this is the internet, and the only way they can win is to deny me access.
Even there they lose, because I am the one solving problems and all they can do is copy and video-ify.
"What is totally ridiculous is using such experiences as an excuse to deride the _entire movement_ from such minor things."
you keep saying that like its some sort of big thing. There is no movement, because they keep it stuck. I don't deride the entire movement and in fact i post things from it on my face book page.
I stick up for Frescoe even sometimes here and even on occasion against anticultist. I stick up for Peter Joseph even, sometimes here.
I'm not generalizing everything into one basket, thats your cheap straw man argument, and its as cheap and stupid and wrong and pig headed as all the rest of your arguments.
"You give people you say are not worth anything all your power when you use them as your excuse to drop-out & name call."
I didn't drop out, i was kicked out. I'm not name calling, I am reporting factual reality.
"I hope you can see this some day."
i hope an epiphany catches you sleeping and that it doesn't hurt too much.
You are the one who needs to wake up, I already have clear eyes. I'm not going to go all delusional and foggy just because you are praying for it to happen.
But thanks for confessing accidentally to black magic.
lol
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 2:48 am | Reply

Have you happened to notice not once has he managed to convince us of any scientific facts or understandings, instead he's [Joseph Matthews] just attacked you.
This furthers our contention at how the lack of science is evident and in fact it compounds how unimportant it is to them, and that instead they would rather recruit or deride people.
Truly sad and also funny
anticultist said this on July 17, 2010 at 2:55 am | Reply

yes, i do notice. I score, he ignores it. I score, he ignores it. He says i don't do anything but whine and bitch and complain and i post
proof that in fact, i am by far the most right action active person around- and he ignores it. Probably didn't even click the link. Certainly didn't look at the files or load anything to sketchup.
Its zombie autopilot. they assume that everything they need to know is known, despite overwhelming ignorance, and can not be swayed to even look at reality as it is, just keep right on keeping on ignorant and clueless and cruising on autopilot.
The whole game is to attack me. Try to get at my credibility.
And it keeps back firing, and he keeps digging himself into a deeper pit.
And not once can he ever manage to bring up science facts or information or link us to a proof that TVP/TZM has any science facts.
Its like talking to a computer. If this was a turning test, we would all pick the computer.
It would behave more three dimensionally than this if it had a programmer with any skill.
In short, hes just blibbering on tit for tat and trying to imagine hes got some kind of moral high ground.
Its pathetic and hilarious.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 3:08 am | Reply

"The only thing you said of significant merit is that you could make guesses at what life may be like with a warmer climate by examining the fossil record. Seems to me that that would be pretty rough, since you need to match temperature as well as atmospheric conditions including carbon dioxide content. "
And you don't know enough to know how that would be done. But I know all about ice core samples and soil samples and how science can determine such things fairly well, so, I'm not concerned.
"And furthermore, your fossil record will be dubiously incomplete because it won't hold information about the most important factor which is oceanic algea and plankton."
thats certainly an interesting contributing factor but its hardly the most important. But by all means, explain how it relates to us.
"However, I will concede a few points for your side for that idea. Unfortunately, your attempt to break through the irreducible complexity argument just doesn't cut it."
I notice that you managed to add back in the "irreducible" part,
whereas before all you knew to talk about was complexity.
I love how even in argument you can't help but verify me to be the one who knows what hes talking about.
lol.
"In order to predict the carbon content of the atmosphere, you have to know how humans will be satiating their demand for energy into the future. "
dude, now you are raising the bar and playing evasion. This is spin and wank, pure and simple.
I don't know why you would think you have anything to say after the last round, you must be a masochist.
"You can't possibly know, predict, or guess such a thing."
Nor would i claim to, and nor does that have any bearing on whether or not global warming as caused by humans is real.
"The only thing we know at this point is that alternative energy sources have gained significant ground. Even assuming your simulations of climate had some staying-power for short-term prediction (and I have seen plenty of data indicating that climate simulations have gone awry) long-term prediction is hopeless. "
You don't know what you are talking about. I'm not interested in you blithering on. Long term prediction is entirely possible and
I can easily predict the long term consequences of our use of fossil fuels, and then give a variance function for our decisions as they change on how things get better or worse.
Quite pretending to have knowledge when all you have is propaganda and recognize that you are in a rare position to have the honor to talk with somebody who does in fact know.
You trying to carry on like this is like a 10 year old trying to argue with a college prof. You are out of your league and you are wasting your opportunity for education.
"Just like predicting the weather long-term is hopeless."
Predicting climate is different than predicting weather as climate is the sum total of weather over the entire year long period. This can be done with astonishing accuracy, and you comparing it to weather prediction only proves gross ignorance.
"My fart can predict the climate for two seconds. "
I'm sorry, did i say ten? You seem to be regressing younger than that, i give you maybe 7 or 8.
"Its going to be just like it was two seconds ago, only just a little fartier. If you think you have significant simulative control"
simulations do not control things, they model them.
"over any length of time worth making big decisions over, you are dreaming."
No, I am not dreaming. I know what is real and you don't.
"Plus, building simulators begs the age old prophecy problem. If enough people make predictions of the future, some day, one of them will pop up and assert that he got it right."
this is the bottom of the barrel. I'm disappointed. The irreducible complexity argument at least has some intelligence and
depth to it. This is so lame its hardly worth responding to.
"Unfortunately, no one will know which one is right until after the fact."
Science doesn't make predictions like that. It says if x and y and z conditions hold, a and b and c will be the outcomes. Those are sometimes called caveats. do you need me to define that word for you?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caveat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditional_(programming)
I suggest some reading. All of this argument is just proof you have no idea how science works and brings to question whether or not you were lying about your background.
"You just refuse to face the fact that all the meteorology clues in the world aren't enough to make reliable predictions of climate."
No, I in fact know that there is more than enough information to make reliable predictions about climate.
You are now arguing from ignorance, and making a statement without
backing up to causality. Its little better than an ad hominem and its not going to fly as an argument.
"All you can do is make a somewhat educated guess that will become less and less accurate as more time goes by."
No, we can say with certainty that given certain conditions there will be certain outcomes and that if those conditions change the outcomes will change.
You obviously don't understand basic statistics or math, even i, a math lame aspie wouldn't make such a mistake.
"There are plenty of climatologists who disagree with you already."
please, just quit bs ing and go read.
"If you can't predict the state of energy technology in 15 to 20 much less 100 years, you can't hope to predict man kinds impact on climate for any long term. "
I can predict those things, i studied energy science. Maybe you noticed that i posted some above? anyhow, we will either die due to use of fossil fuels or we will go green. the end.
You seem to have completely lost your toehold. There is a reason why we have things called model variability and why there are such things as if-then statements in code.
This argument has nothing to do with whether or not climate change is real and all it speaks to is whether or not in the future we will change.
"Its not irrelevent. Its a part of reality that impacts the simulation/chemistry you are trying to make."
It is irrelevant, you can't even hold together a solid string of causality or argument or remember what it is you are arguing for.
"You can't make a decent simulation that gets the answer right without including every possible detail of meaning into the simulation."
No, a model models what it models. The end.
"What is irrelevent is how good you think you and a thousand of your friends are at doing math or chemistry for that matter. What is relevent is a historical warming trend."
I have heard all of this bunkum before. In fact we should be in a cooling trend right now and thats what threw off things for a decade. But 2010 is now the hottest year on record so far, again.
You don't know what you are talking about, and I am not interested in bs propaganda you pulled off of some denialist website.
"That is the only hard data on your side."
You are ignorant and so painfully ignorant you don't even understand how simulation math works or is considered by the science community. For you to try to tell us what data we do or don't have is at this point ludicrous. From a legalese perspective this witness has already been impeached. Me even bothering to answer you past that point is merely a courtesy.
"People are already working on energy technology, they have achieved a great deal of success, and it would be ludicrous to assume or even guess that they have suddenly all run into a road block."
I don't know what you you are blithering on about and I don't care. I have myself pointed out that we could go green and geothermal in under two years. This does not change the facts about global warming.
"In fact, there is little doubt that solar energy is more cost effective than coal."
We agree on something.
whoa.
"If they solve the problem, then all the jumping around and law-making in the world will just be a waste. "
So your real point is you don't like cap and trade. Well neither do i. So now what. Why do you assume I'm your standard liberal enemy?
WTF?
Pay attention to who you are talking to.
"And if government were really concerned about the climate, all they would have to do is put reasonble funding into alternative energy, which they don't"
I already knew that.
"Now, you complained about me focusing on the simulation idea. I would love to branch out, but I am forced by my conscience to refrain because this is not the topic of discussion."
Thats why you were supposed to meet me on facebook.
like so many other things, you just let that fly over your head.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 3:37 am | Reply

Well, it appears that we agree with one another far better than I assumed. I am happy to see that. Yes, my real point about global warming is not whether or not GW exists, but rather about the concept of making huge, long term changes in society to "accomadate" it. This is the only significant issue regarding GW, otherwise, its just academic. My argument is that your models are academic only. And you have essentially admitted the truth of this by saying "no, a model models what it models the end". You have severed yourself from the responsibility of producing something of practical value. Which scientifically speaking, is acceptable, so long as this is understood. Here is where the problem lies. The general public tends to believe that your models carry more weight than they do because they don't understand that they are only formal systems, and proponents of climatological legislation are only too happy to let laziness take its course here. There is not adequate evidence of the future impact of GW in the real world, or the long term accuracy of your models in the real world to assume that making any big decisions based on them will be of advantage. And further confounding the problem is the fact that "advantage" is a subjective term. Now, since you are not promoting cap and trade, it turns out that you and I have little to argue about. I admit that having expertise in meteorology is of value, and am pleased to see that you have accomplished that. You should be aware at this point as to where I draw the line.
Of course I am aware of the "if then" nature of mathematics. Thats what makes your models academic only. And of course models can be parameterized. That doesn't solve the problem even if it adds adaptability to your model. The problem is that you can't guarantee that anything your models say enables you to make big decisions. Also, Joanne Nova, climatologist, disagrees that you have control of the behavior of the chemistry. For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert. However, this need no longer be an item of concern between us. I see no further need to spend time on this topic, and considering your behavior, I am not at this point in time willing to allow you to take up space and time on my facebook account. However, seeing that you are genuinely of meaningful intelligence, I intend to see if some sort of friendship can be formed, as you may potentially be a valuable ally. Keep in mind please that to be considered a valuable ally requires more than simply demonstrating your command of meaningful topics.
Matt S said this on July 17, 2010 at 4:53 am | Reply

"Shock: Global temperatures driven by US Postal Charges"
correlation does not imply causation. I can't believe anybody would have the gall to enter this site as some kind of meaningful argument. Its a parody site and its ignorant and stupid.
It has nothing to say worth bothering to listen to unless you are one of the faithful denialist sheeple looking for a good laugh.
To anyone else its not funny, just stupid.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 3:42 am | Reply

Anyone can blurt insults. Doing so when the person you are insulting is not around to respond is just another straw-man tactic. If you have complaints against Miss/Mrs. Nova, climatologist, confront her yourself. I'm not here to defend her personal points. I merely pointed out that not all climatologists are in agreement. I can only stand for the things I personally understand.
Matt S said this on July 17, 2010 at 4:59 am | Reply

Just go here and discuss things and read things to go further on this
http://www.facebook.com/prometheus.pan
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 4:07 am | Reply

"mmmm. well, if they are truly stuck, then something will have to push them over."
You aren't listening. They can remain stuck for as long as they choose that. Which should be forever.
"As far as splinter group goes... diversity is necessary for group intelligence. There must be splinter groups in order for this movement to own the intelligence it needs."
lol. No. No. No. If they were honest, and didn't have serious flaws, they could harnass all of that energy from one site and diversity would come in the form of actual conversation and input.
The fact that people can only express themselves by forming splinter groups proves the point that they can't express themselves freely inside of the cult.
"The question perhaps is how these groups interact with one another. The proper behavior of all is to amicably accept the necessity of diversity. "
Diversity is nice, and it would be nice if they were to get along better, and i have tried to reach out to several of them, but it tends to end up that nobodies lucid enough to finish a pancake recipe, let alone redesign civilization. The real truth is that if all of the splinter groups were to come back together they just might have the talent and knowledge and skill in the whole of it to pull it off.
Diversity is great, but diversity can happen inside of one movement if that movement isn't totalitarian + Fascistic like TVP.
"It so happens that diversity is a natural attractor of its own, guaranteeing to begin with that TZM would split up into groups."
no. Diversity is fine. Splinter groups is a symptom of problems. Real and positive diversity would be reflected in a longer forum list of scientific disciplines and projects. Not 10 or 50 splinter groups. The failure to give those people a place to work and function inside of TVP is a proof of TVPs dysfunctionality.
"It will be the interplay of these splinter groups which defines the true future of the movement."
there isn't much interplay. Each has mostly gone off in its own direction and each more or less keeps to itself.
"The proper behavior for TZM and its splinter groups is to acknowledge each other as friends rather than enemies,"
sounds nice. Being as much as associated with RBEF or RBOSE is cause for banning at TVP.
"as the people involved are very like-minded even if they have disagreements,"
sounds nice, but it is not the reality.
"and to keep track of each other and argue with each other when they have time to spare. In this manner, information will inevitably flow at some rate between the groups."
this doesn't happen. Glenn Poston/ aka Humanity tried to get them together and so have i. They barely have the energy to figure out how to have a functional group... and really they don't have that.
RBOSE is a troll cult itself, Atlas city can't even manage to design a tool shed, and the most lucid by far of the splinter groups- RBEF is so merciful and generous and light that it lets people walk all over them and chase the user base away.
None of them have a functional metaprocess and none of them are conducting what could be called research with a straight face.
None of them are doing real design except maybe Eco Towns, and even there what we get is a sort of static macro map, not a detailed architecture.
" Attempting to coalesce the groups entirely would be a mistake, as that would incur a loss of diversity. "
at this point thats probably true, but it would have been better for TVP to not be evil in the first place and thus not drive all of those people away.
"The groups must compete against each other regarding their various merits."
no, really, they don't need to do that.
"And the heat of competition will be that which supplies the energy required to enforce evolution amongst all of the groups. "
you can't be serious.
wait. i think you are.
d'oh.
"Ideally, the people would be aware of this necessary process,"
there is nothing necessary or even useful about having them compete and in any case, they won't.
They don't even monitor each other, let alone compete. They mostly don't even know about each others existence.
"and accept it for its mathematical inevitability and deal with it in an optimized fashion."
Thats more of the same competition paradigm that got us into this mess, its nonsensical, and in any case those groups are not going to compete with each other.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 4:23 am | Reply

Nope, competition is part of the deal in neural systems of intelligence and in successful spherical modular social structures. Neurons compete in your brain for control over final decision making. The IBM pc manufacturing companies are competitors amongst each other, but because of this competition, they were able to defeat Mac. Same goes for chinese motorcycle manufacture. See "wikinomics" by Tapscott and Williams. Competition between neural domains in physical materials provides for flexibility and resistance to shattering. However, from you twos descriptions, it would appear that the competition may have become exaggerated to a point of being unhealthy. Yet one must admit that a: Nature his its ways and b: this system is probably not at a point of equilibrium.
Matt S said this on July 17, 2010 at 5:19 am | Reply

"I don't fully understand why, but it seems that you are not properly using the word attractor."
sorry, i'm 4 mixed metaphors deep.
"The attractors of this system are not particular people, or money, or virgins. They are system structures which can withstand the test of time."
yes, i understand.
"The question that arises here is whether a ZM that is stuck can withstand the test of time without change. My personal belief is... no it can't, because they are too close to genuine attractors that will impose pressures upon a stuck structure."
How long have you been playing this game and with how many different groups?
I just told you what the reality is. You can postulate away all you like but the reality is that they have chosen to be stuck and that decision is for all intents and purposes final.
All evolutionary impetus and inertia ends there, and all evolutionary energy and impetus is a tiny energy compared to the immovable objects of the assorted egos involved.
"This blog is an example of just such a pressure. "
What will happen is TVP will self destruct, probably getting itself embroiled in a legal battle. I alone could have them shut down and have the forum removed from the net for libel and
slander and etc if I had the time and energy to hire a lawyer.
sooner or later being evil abusive people catches up to them, not in an evolutionary way, but in a bite outta their ass sort of way.
As it is, things are going downhill for them fast.
"But the pressure will be more pervasive than just a few people
who have complaints. The pressure will impose itself on all of
the members of the ZM in its own manner and form."
In all probability, vtv or thunder, who think they can get away with anything because they have, will cross somebody whos got money and a good lawyer, and that will be the end of it. If that doesn't happen, in any case, the turnover rate at the forum is very high and they will eventually run out of fresh dupes.
It is only a matter of time.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 4:32 am | Reply

"should they gain any notoriety in the outside world off the internet and their forum without any scientific data/research and the public knowledge of them being a conspiracy theory based movement,"
If they gain any serious attention from the press or the scientific community they will not be able to hold up or bear that kind of scrutiny and they will collapse.
They won't be able to evolve fast enough or backtrack far enough.
Their big media break will be their first and their last, and in truth is think they know this, and thus shun media they can't control.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 4:37 am | Reply

"Unfounded insults & childish name calling from AntiCultist? "
no, the insults are entirely founded.
In your case it would be hard to find an insult that wasn't.
"Really? Surprise surprise. Proving my points once again; thanks guy :)"
I don't know what you think you are proving for a point, but in reality, any objective third party would find you to be a blowhard fool in over his head.
"Well, that's all the energy you guys are going to suck from me tonight."
As a side note, anti cultist, i'd suggest thats all the energy we should allow this particular idiot to suck from us ever- we have indulged several rounds of tit for tat with ignorant blowhard and he never says anything new.
"Do think you guys might be taken a little more seriously if you took the time to communicate respectfully like adults, instead of just spewing your hate and negativity whenever you can."
more moral high ground from an imp with a heroin needle stuck in his arm and delusional fantasies running rampant through his mind.
"I guess you'd do that, if you were able to. But since you're not... well you'll always have this site to turn to..."
err... we come here for the purpose and function of not taking it elsewhere.
"But of course, you and I both know being taken seriously isn't your true motive here. "
right, well, you keep on projecting and clowning around and hopefully anticultist will just deem your posts too unworthy to pass muster from now on.
"This is a hate site,"
No, its a truth site.
"trying to dismantle the good efforts of more genuine & accomplished people,"
All of whom are ignorant fools who have accomplished nothing more than stealing other peoples good works. Obviously the moron didn;t click the link or he would know that I'm easily more accomplished than TZM on several fronts.
"and nothing is going to change your position on that. Which is why any debate here is pointless; no possibility for change. Just a small handful of disgruntled want-to-be's thinking they'll prop themselves up by taking others down."
No, the reality is that we are the real movement, we are the truth movement, and we are telling the world the truth about a batch of evil basterds and charlatans who deserve to rot in hell.
This is not about propping us up or knocking them down, it is about doing the public the service of warning them about an evil and sick cult.
Your inability to grasp this and your attempts to turn it on its ear are frivolous and pathetic, and your double think and cognitive dissonance in the face of the truth and our information only prove you to be a fucktard of the first order.
so take your moral high ground, and shove it where the sun don't shine.
Anti cultist, i see no reason to continue to allow these posts to
make it to the blog.
Good, strong debate is fine. Running in masturbatory circles with a tit for tat double thinker is waste of everyones time.
"The funniest part is that you claim to expect to succeed in positive social change with your vitriol & negativity."
We don't have vitriol or negativity, we are simply lucidly aware of the fact that TVP is an evil basterd cult of personality in three tiers, a moron dupes vore plant, armageddon theology redressed for atheists, in short, a charlatans con game and scam.
Those are the facts, and your inability to digest them is your problem.
"Like somehow, in some bizarro universe, one results in the other. Maybe some day you'll grow up and out of this silliness."
right back atcha. I wasted this time to answer you i could have drawn a nice apartment building. I actually DO real design of a new civilization, you just attack us and BS and spread your fucktard noise.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 4:51 am | Reply

Agreed Prom this guys history, he returns and never brings a thing apart from his self importance and cult defending nonsense, he is literally a trickless pony.
anticultist said this on July 17, 2010 at 4:56 am | Reply

Glad we agree on that one. This other guy is hard work, but at least hes not doublethinking himself through fantasy moral high ground and feeding us the same rhetoric 5 times in a row.
"Well, it appears that we agree with one another far better than I assumed. I am happy to see that. Yes, my real point about global warming is not whether or not GW exists, but rather about the concept of making huge, long term changes in society to "accomadate" it. "
Thats a glorious confession.
"This is the only significant issue regarding GW, otherwise, its just academic. My argument is that your models are academic only. And you have essentially admitted the truth of this by saying "no, a model models what it models the end".
There are some things theres no point in arguing over.
"You have severed yourself from the responsibility of producing something of practical value."
Not true, I design geothermal power stations, for instance.
"Which scientifically speaking, is acceptable, so long as this is understood. Here is where the problem lies. The general public tends to believe that your models carry more weight than they do because they don't understand that they are only formal systems, "
They aren't my models. I'm a third party to your civilization. Please try to get clear on that. I'm not in any camps and I'm not
representing anybody.
"and proponents of climatological legislation are only too happy to let laziness take its course here. There is not adequate evidence of the future impact of GW in the real world, or the long term accuracy of your models in the real world to assume that making any big decisions based on them will be of advantage. "
This is untrue but ultimately moot. We can change over to geothermal and green energy and should do if for no other reason that its cheaper.
We do know for a fact that what happens if we don't is ecosystem collapse and death of all life on earth as we know it,. Your motivations for denial are by your own admission political and economic.
"And further confounding the problem is the fact that "advantage" is a subjective term. Now, since you are not promoting cap and trade, it turns out that you and I have little to argue about."
Cap and trade is pointless when what we really need is a fast track off of fossil fuels period. Make them illegal, period. Cap and trade is just taxing the problem and not solving it, its like asking rapists to pay a rape tax. No, we need to stop the raping.
However, obviously, this has to be done in a way that holds civilization together rather than tearing it apart, in a way that employs people rather than leaving them jobless, and etc. Transition is very complicated but also very necessary. Its also entirely feasible. Cap and trade is not a part of any serious transition plan.
"I admit that having expertise in meteorology is of value, and am pleased to see that you have accomplished that. You should be aware at this point as to where I draw the line.
Of course I am aware of the "if then" nature of mathematics. Thats what makes your models academic only."
The models are not acedemic only, and if we don't quit polluting ten years ago every dollar we spend on fossil fuels will cost us a million dollars to prevent ecological collapse.
" And of course models can be parameterized. That doesn't solve the problem even if it adds adaptability to your model. The problem is that you can't guarantee that anything your models say enables you to make big decisions."
I can in fact guarantee that my big decisions are the right ones and that can be done without even entering climate change into
the discussion on economic grounds alone.
"Also, Joanne Nova, climatologist, disagrees that you have control of the behavior of the chemistry."
I would have to say that your use of the word control is suspicious and that generally speaking we have very little control over anything but ourselves and even there the reptile brain can take over and turn us into somnambulists any moment it chooses.
"For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert."
In the area of climate change, this is not true, the supposed conflict is entirely manufactured.
Almost all actual scientists agree, there isn't really any argument in the science community, despite exxon oils paid shills.
"However, this need no longer be an item of concern between us. I see no further need to spend time on this topic, and considering your behavior, I am not at this point in time willing to allow you to take up space and time on my facebook account."
well, do what works to save face and get out while you can.
"However, seeing that you are genuinely of meaningful intelligence, I intend to see if some sort of friendship can be formed, as you may potentially be a valuable ally. Keep in mind please that to be considered a valuable ally requires more than simply demonstrating your command of meaningful topics."
You are right, I'm the guy any sane person wants next to them, and
If you test this you will find that I'm open to giving people
my time and energy if it can help them.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 5:16 am | Reply

Your/your groups models are academic only, because they are not adequately connected to reality to promise any ability for valuable changes of course. Amongst other issues, going green is already a planet wide agenda and was before anyone said anything about global warming. Furthermore, damage to some peoples climate will happen simultaneously with advantages to other peoples climates. Anyone with background in multivariate optimization knows full well that configurations that optimize for all variables are primarily nonexistent. Humanities existence will impose a cost upon the environment. Building advantages for the environment will impose a cost on society. Depending on how that cost is spent, some of it may or may not be returned back as returns on an investment. The ideal temperature of the planet for human existence is not necessarily what it has been in the recent past. Screaming "global warming" at the top of your lungs gives Al Gore and Cronies the opportunity to steal strength out of the system that could genuinely be used to help the environment. Your efforts could very well be backfiring. This is the nature of the real world.
Now regarding you/you two being the sane ones. It does appear at least so far that you are both well educated. That's a plus on your side. However, I tend to wonder just how things will go. For starters, if you really wish to come off as the sane ones, may I humbly suggest that you exercise better restraint in your language habits, particularly for mr. anticultist.
Now moving on, if the two of you wish to add coherence to the ZM/related, I suggest that you/we/whoever is willing, make a genuine and lasting effort towards this ends, beginning with collecting/writing a run-down on strategies of collective intelligence as applied to these particular circumstances, including reference work and allow for some form of peer review. Such a genuine effort could not fail to be noticed, and humanity can not afford for ZM type effort to all be wasted. I happen to have some preliminary referenced text along this direction, but frankly, I have been searching for those willing to add their efforts to mine. I will also continue to spend some effort with them in order to gain some better feel for them and with your RBEF. I have noticed in the past that you two are not the only ones disappointed with the ZM for this very reason. Nevertheless, so far, I have mostly experienced cooperative behavior from their side.
Matt S said this on July 17, 2010 at 6:25 am | Reply

I dont claim to be sane per se, I just claim to be less bogged down in ideology and rhetoric, I am no more sane than the next person as I have my own flaws and crazy quirks.
As far as my language is concerned I just go with what suites the person I am talking to at the time, for instance I havent yet burst into an incendiary of abuse or verbal spice with you.
You will notice that is because you have managed to stay away from the markers that I see in zeitards on a daily basis, this is primarily due to the fact you are not indoctrinated into their ideology and are not a die hard fanatic. You should gather from this those are my reasons for flaming people, I am an ex member and had to listen to their garbage for too long, I created this page to express my disdain about them, so when they come here griefing me, which I dont do myself on their forum they get whats coming to them.
Whether you percieve that as shallow, weak, uneducated or whatever I do see your point, but it hardly matters to me since I know how it looks yet it doesnt bother me to always appear to be polite to people who dont deserve it. I know you may see my ways as harsh and abrasive but I guarantee there is only so much nonsense repeated at you day after day by the same people, or different people saying the exact same things to you before enough is enough and you no longer tolerate it. This is the point I am at with these fanatics.
Regarding your proposition to offer up my services to garner peer reviewable data and material towards the ends of Resource Based Economics, I have to be frank it does not interest me because I have long since moved on from the notion this is plausible myself [That is unless you are discussing local economies either state level or national level/or allied national level].
So it would remain in the realms of the likes of others to prove a global RBE possible through careful studies and research as well as practical examples and tests. This latter part of course is not feasable in the currrent climate since TVP requires a global RBE to be in place for it to be fully functional, they dont consider local economics as useful, so with this in mind its obvious why its not something they can even validate. After spending the better part of two years studying their claims and materials I have now realised there are far too many holes in their claims and beliefs, so have moved on away from even considering what they say as functional. But some parts of the idea are nice to consider, and would be humanitarian if carried out correctly.
So it is for this and other reasons I have since moved on to more local strategy thinking and smaller scale solutions for more managable problems.
anticultist said this on July 17, 2010 at 7:19 am

"Thats more of the same competition paradigm that got us into this mess, its nonsensical, and in any case those groups are not going to compete with each other."
What has gotten us into the trouble we are in is not competition, but pyramid shaped social structure, (which can exaggerate competition). Spherical modular social structure is the only other legitimate option I am aware of. It is not based on competition, but competition will naturally still be a part of it. One of your main problems with the ZM is that those people are still thinking in terms of pyramid shaped social structure. Fact that they put a quiz as a requirement to enter their forums is evidence of that. Fact that they are orgznized in 3 tiers is evidence of that. This is not altogether unexpected, as understanding of spherical modular structure is rare. When I saw the quiz, I realized right away that they were missing the second most important component of their organization. They don't yet understand spherical modular. But obviously if I attempt to ram it down their throats, that won't work, so I am still strategizing as to how to deal with that ideally. I have written a book which explains the topic, but it is unfinished and unedited. And its scope is more broad than that, making it not quite the right piece of work to shoot straight at the issue. Ideally though, I would prefer at first to at least partially identify myself with people who already understand the principles of this intelligence architecture.
Matt S said this on July 17, 2010 at 6:47 am | Reply

http://www.realclimate.org/wiki/index.php?title=RC_Wiki
This site debunks assorted climate denial BS.
Any further discussion on this blog about it, and I suggest anticultist that you just don't let those posts through the filter.
Its easy to imagine why our denialist doesn't want to take this to face book, He can probably guess that Its going to make him look like an idiot and doesn't want others to see him being a fool.
Thats his problem.
This should be the last post on this subject on this blog at least on this thread.
Aside from this, I think its clear whats going on here. There are political and economic motivations for this persons denial of climate change reality, hes not operating from objectivity of knowledge nor interested in truth; he just doesn't like the the idea of cap and trade.
This demonstrates gross intellectual dishonesty and the fact is that the conversation is thus over. At the moment of confession, we know all that is relevant. Arguer is ignorant, arguer is biased, arguer is living in a fantasy bubble version of reality, and arguer doesn't have the moral or ethical turpitude to grasp
why hes being evil or why hes being foolish.
This blog is not here to explore climate denialism, but it does give us a window into this persons willingness to bend the truth and operate from ignorance and bias, to knowingly distort and argue from ignorance not out of a quest for truth, but out of apolitical motivation.
Witness has been impeached.
the end.
Anything witness has to say from now on can be taken as probable junk.
"Yes, my real point about global warming is not whether or not GW exists, but rather about the concept of making huge, long term changes in society to "accomadate" it. This is the only significant issue regarding GW, otherwise, its just academic. "
with or without you, i will be exploring climate change on face book.
I realize thats not where you want your humiliation to be, but thats not my problem.
Now, regarding the other post.
"Nope, competition is part of the deal in neural systems of intelligence and in successful spherical modular social structures. "
No, the competition model is the problem, and it does not lead to right action. In this case we are already competing against the current dominant paradigm, competition between groups would be doubly silly.
"Neurons compete in your brain for control over final decision making. "
No, you and others linguistically frame it that way, but neurons don't have gladiator sports.
"The IBM pc manufacturing companies are competitors amongst each other, but because of this competition, they were able to defeat Mac. "
Some might argue a better path would be to just work on a path of right action.
"Same goes for chinese motorcycle manufacture."
A perfect example ; why not hoverbikes? Not real competition.
"See "wikinomics" by Tapscott and Williams. Competition between neural domains in physical materials provides for flexibility and resistance to shattering. "
And makes wikipedia the most junkified gobbledygook mass scam of a non encyclopedia propaganda site ever.
In short, ruining the potential for something far more evolved to happen.
"However, from you twos descriptions, it would appear that the competition may have become exaggerated to a point of being unhealthy. "
Thats easy to happen, almost all so called competition is unhealthy.
"Yet one must admit that a: Nature his its ways and b: this system is probably not at a point of equilibrium."
One must admit that competition is the old primitive model and that collaboration is a different and better model.
Collaboration is better and more evolved and doesn't waste as much energy.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 7:16 am | Reply

Anticultist blog comments continue...
http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/forum/5539/archiving-anticultist-blog-on-sp/3/#reply-53908a5c


Click to get back to topic starter

Click to get back to topic starter



Anticultist blog comments continue...

Oh wow... "breaking the law and are generally considered trouble causers" OK, I can see that your picture of this is not very clear. United states law currently is not actually law at all. It is merely corporate policy, standing at approximately the level of McDonalds or Wal-marts corporate policy. The only hold they have on people is by means of contract (birth certificates, drivers licenses etc. ). So how did this really weird thing ever happen? Its basically like this.. the government didn't like the limitations on its power set by the constitution, so in order to be able to break the law themselves, they started refusing to file their oathes as demanded by the constitution. This refusal to file their oathes essentially disabled the constitution because they were not bound to it. Simultaneously, it disabled the authority of the politicians because in order to legally hold office, a politician is not only required to be voted in, but to file his oath. So, in order to regain their supposed authority, they cause people to unwittingly sign contracts with them, which hand over the appearance of government authority to the charlatans. This is what created what we now call de facto government. Because of it in this country, we now have people bound by laws, while government refuses to be bound by any. If you play by the rules and the other players don't, you will always lose the game. That's how it is... they are cheating. Its not government. It only practices "color of law". excluding ones self from this organization is not expatriation, its only about the same as quitting your job. These people are probably more patriotic than you'll ever be. Genuine government must obey the rules itself in order to merit genuine authority to govern.
Now, the single most significant trespass that the government perpetrates against the people is the destruction of their constitutional right to an honest currency. Reversion to the constitution doesn't instigate RBE, but it does the next best thing. It blows up the federal government/ federal reserve banking scam, which is a major hurdle for RBE and a detriment to the people. As long as those people can keep promoting themselves by money-scamming the people, they will always be in power. .. And I'm sorry that you have no feelings for the constitution. You really should develop a relationship with it. This country became great during the years that we held to that document.
Matt S said this on September 4, 2010 at 4:23 am

I think if you said this anywhere else you would get a barrage of arguments providing counter points, but since I am not really that interested in governments or politics you wont get much from me as its not something I completely hold with value. Government is not some tyrant to me, yes it has its negatives like most set ups and has its law abiders and law breakers. But I am not getting into this, to be quite honest with you its just a side track issue from the original blog post so that all there is to say on that from me.
anticultist said this on September 4, 2010 at 10:54 am

Also by the way... the guardians intend to hold elections and rebuild the constitutional de jeur government.. and as long as those de jeur offices are vacant, nothing can stop them from doing that.
Matt S said this on September 4, 2010 at 4:33 am

Oh .. by the way... promoting the Guardians is not any primary concern for me. I just like them because I think they have developed a good strategy.
Matt S said this on September 17, 2010 at 10:17 pm

lol. Guardians of the free republic. lol.
I'm sorry, I don't own a tin foil hat.
lol.
prometheuspan said this on August 18, 2010 at 7:34 pm | Reply

Tin foil hat? Jumping to status of "secured party" saved me $17000. Someone else I know has a 38 million dollar lean against the straw-man identities of two policemen who tried to abridge his rights. Tin foil hat? Look, I agree that you are intelligent, but don't be so proud of yourself as to believe that there is nothing of significance of which you are ignorant. The universe is way too big for that. Brains are fabulous, but they are also so damned puny that you just can't fit much in there. These people are way past you regarding legal issues. There is little doubt that you would fall flat on your face just trying to understand their language. These people know shit you can't believe. Tin foil hat? No, you are just living in OZ. That's the real deal. You don't understand legal reality at all apparently. Here you stand in resistance to the money system, apparently totally unaware of one of its greatest weaknesses. You need to get a clue. That's all there is to this deal.
Matt S said this on September 3, 2010 at 7:12 pm | Reply

Yup just so you know a lien is of no value without remedy and compensation, I could claim 300 million lien against a party myself should I want but if I never get my damages and am ignored and thrown out of court my lien means nothing but wasted breath and efforts.
anticultist said this on September 3, 2010 at 9:58 pm

Hey Anticultist... excellent reply... Yes, of course, that is correct. The interesting factor is not that the fellow has access to 38 million cash, but that his status as secured party allowed him this kind of response to the abuse of his rights. The lien has been awarded, but just how it turns into cash has not been resolved and may never be resolved. Excellent reply. You are cool today.
Matt S said this on September 4, 2010 at 3:59 am

The problem appears when VP/ZM faces someone who has even the basic knowledge about the economy (I am not talking about the monetary system) and processes inside it, like supply/demand balance. From my attempts to organize some discussion about it, or even economic team over there I can see that either most of the forum participants turn into "populist" future-oriented, spaceman perspective or skip the discussion. It applies to VTV and PJ as well - as a matter of fact the VP theory has more-or-less as stable foundations as the Star Trek to me so far.
I think the main problem is with Peter / Jacques admitting the simple fact that they have no idea about economy. This simple fact would open the possibilities to discuss with experts about it. Ad right now it is more like a politic party with leaders claiming to know everything. Sad a bit.
What is actually dangerous is that the RBEism is nice, populist idea and for most of the people it sounds cool, especially with the frustration of the everyday situation; therefore at some point they might get their momentum. Without any actual data or plan of action, we risk turning into another failed revolution or other kind of authoritarian rule..
Cosar said this on August 23, 2010 at 5:26 am | Reply

Cosar; I think in some ways its admirable to try to get such a conversation started but you just have to realize its futile.
In short, despite appearances, the TZM forum runs by information dispensation, from the top down. The bottom is considered a bunch of morons and dupes. When you know at least on a subconscious level that all the followers are at least stupid enough to be duped by you, then you also tend to assume that they are too stupid to otherwise think for themselves. When the standard operating procedure is to ban anybody who seriously questions or raises issues, it can be assumed by them that there are only dupes and morons there and that they can freely assume that anything that such people have to say will be stupid chit chat.
There is only one good reason to stay there and only one thing to do while over there and that is to offer the alternative to people who are worthy.
Trying to have a serious conversation with pj or etc is futile, because hes ignorant and must pretend at all times to be omniscient, and because VTV is doubly so.
prometheuspan said this on August 23, 2010 at 9:57 pm | Reply

I think it is just me and the "proving beyond any doubt" attitude. Anyway, I am focused on our Project Umbrella now (RBOSE/Atlas/RBEF merger), just discussing on ZM forum just to offer the alternatives.
On the other hand - most intelligent people who question the VP/ZM structure, organization & motives (which are damn fishy, just checked the VPDesign and their registration terms: "Content created for The Venus Project by a "volunteer" will be accepted as creative donations to The Venus Project and will become property of TVP to be used in an educational capacity as is directed by The Venus Project or its not for profit organization, Future By Design and can not be displayed in personal portfolios, resumes, websites or any other media.") will probably go elsewhere.
Cosar said this on August 24, 2010 at 6:40 am | Reply

wow, I didn't know about that deal regarding content. That is an extremely lame and also fishy agreement. It definitely doesn't go along with the "leaderless" assertion, but even worse, perhaps it gives power to some to shut down the whole project upon demand... wow, this is definitely very bad.
Matt S said this on September 12, 2010 at 3:50 am

Guys, GREATTTTTTT JOB on this, it amazes me how deep your minds can go combined to witness whats going on, and differentiate what's an illusion and propaganda with these situations and organized groups.
The RSVP Network said this on August 26, 2010 at 7:21 am | Reply

He doesn't have scientific background? Ok, then tell me Dr Paul, is being a DJ your scientific background?
Anonymous said this on August 28, 2010 at 1:13 am | Reply

My scientific qualifications and skills are electronic engineering, mechanical engineering, aircraft weapons systems, audio engineering, acoustics, programming and a few other things.
anticultist said this on August 28, 2010 at 2:49 pm | Reply

Very similar to my own background.. swap physics for mechanical engineering, dump the weapons and replace it with something like automation/instrumentation...
Matt S said this on September 4, 2010 at 6:11 am

"Tin foil hat? "
yeah. And thats putting it politely.
"Jumping to status of "secured party" saved me $17000. Someone else I know has a 38 million dollar lean against the straw-man identities of two policemen who tried to abridge his rights."
Its neat that there are some positive outcomes. Jesus christ wacko
is by and large not something to get involved in.
"Tin foil hat? Look, I agree that you are intelligent, but don't be so proud of yourself as to believe that there is nothing of significance of which you are ignorant. "
The reverse is true. Being a multi expert I am quite aware of how
knowledge works and the enormous holes that do exist in my knowledge in some subjects.
Cult psychology is not one of those holes, and the guardians of the free republic are little more than a jesus cult with high ideals to turn the USA into a Jesustopia.
"The universe is way too big for that. Brains are fabulous, but they are also so damned puny that you just can't fit much in there. These people are way past you regarding legal issues."
No, they are slightly ahead of the RBE crowd. On that front. Aside from that, they are a bunch of lunatic jesus nuts.
"There is little doubt that you would fall flat on your face just trying to understand their language. "
I'm just going to point out here that I have read cover to cover
dozens of dictionaries and that until about the age of 14 my form of social immaturity was to always use words nobody else knew the meaning of.
"These people know shit you can't believe. "
More importantly, i know they believe shit...
"Tin foil hat? No, you are just living in OZ. That's the real deal."
No, I'm the one facing reality and they are the ones using
jesus as a teddy bear.
"You don't understand legal reality at all apparently."
I understand it fine, in fact i always win in court.
"Here you stand in resistance to the money system, apparently totally unaware of one of its greatest weaknesses."
Truth in the hands of crackpots does not impress me. Just because they have some good ideas does not mean that their crackpotted ones don't make it all moot.
"You need to get a clue. That's all there is to this deal."
No, You need to get a clue, I'm all clued up.
prometheuspan said this on September 3, 2010 at 10:44 pm | Reply

Hey, that was a decent response as well.
Your point that many of them are quite religious is well taken. However, I happen to personally know quite a few of them, and in so doing, I happen to know that they are definitely not all "jesus nuts". Maybe half of them are. The problem you are describing here is a general problem of this country, not a problem that is specific to the guardians of the free republics. Generally speaking, legal experts are not also science experts, so we will have to accept that legal experts will typically have about the same religious behavior as the general public and somehow deal with that. In any case, no matter how you slice it, most voters in the United States are religious. You can attack christianity if you like, but its not the same battle as attempting to build an RBE, or attempting to hang limits onto the federal government. I have spent most of my life amongst religious people and have learned to just live with it. I just redefine the word "God" to my liking and talk with them with very limited difficulty. Einstein believed in God, but not the kind of God Christians believe in. Thats how I feel about it, and all I have to do to slide easily with religious folk is say that for me, God is the principles of intelligence, harmony, and such operating in the universe. That works fine and allows me to function well with them. I battle about religious issues with them when I have to, or when there is something to gain by it.
If you refuse to work with people who don't see things just like yourself, you'll never get anywhere far because you just won't find enough people as well informed as you to accomplish much.
Now regarding the cult psychology issue... its true that there is a certain flavor of that trying to happen amongst this group, but at the same time, many of the group members are aware of this potential, and are resisting the decay into a cult group.
And lastly, if they succeed at re-implementing the constitution, your vote will be just as good as theirs, so you won't be any worse off in that respect than you are now. Things will just be better because the fed will have proper limits.
Matt
Matt S said this on September 4, 2010 at 6:08 am | Reply

matt; I do not refuse to work with people who are religious and in fact i am actively involved in working out how to build some bridges and I am even today taking heat for generating a religious exploration set of forums on RBEF along with the other expansions of their forums.
I can blend in with the Christians if i want to and sometimes i do.
This is not an option with this group. Their stated goals are christi-fascistic. Period. As much as i may agree with some portion of what they are saying, It is simply not sane to give them any time or energy because of their stated intentions and goals.
You can push it out of your mind and confess openly your own version of doublethink all you like. I too translate "god" and etc
religious language in order to keep friends I would otherwise loose. But I don't join or promote their organizations and I don't kid myself that such organizations can ever make a positive difference.
There are lots of people and social movements out there with awesome ideas. The core point of this blog and moral of the TVP story is it only takes 5 evil ideas to make 1001 brilliant ideas moot and pointless- a contamination rate of only 5 bad axioms ruins and spoils 1001 true axioms.
period. End of story. That is true of TVP, true of the technocrats, true of the guardians, true of etc etc etc.
To put it in blunt terms, no matter how good the cake is, no matte rhow healthy, no matter how new age, no matter how good and wholesome, if we frost it with cow shit, nobodies eating.
And those that do eat are seriously mentally ill and likely to become seriously physically ill.
prometheuspan said this on September 5, 2010 at 12:25 am | Reply

Hehe... In a proof system, it only takes one bad axiom to ruin the entire or at least most of the system... Neural networks, however, don't have this problem. Part of the robustness of neural computing is that computing is actually non-local. One erroneous or even several erroneous weights in the system do not destroy its behavior significantly. Furthermore, such networks tend to be designed so as to correct for errors as time goes on. The key element in the success of neural computing is probably feedback. If those people realized that some of their less significant goals were getting in the way of some of their more significant goals, they might adjust somewhat, but the issue depends on appropriate feedback routes.
It turns out that feedback algorithms in neural computing conditions also, in a way, operate non-locally... naturally they must. In order to manage non-local computing, non-local tuning must be employed. When we separate ourselves into groups that don't communicate, we rob ourselves of a fundamental requirement of successful neural intelligence algorithm. We kill the feedback tuning loop that way.
The only way for such tuning to be accomplished is for connections amongst the neurons to be exercised.
One of the key elements of memetics is that of evolution of the various systems. Proper evolution requires information flow. People need to discuss between groups, and define their differences, and adjust accordingly.
But even more importantly, I'm confident that if there are disastrous problems with their movement, they will tend to be broken out of their thinking over time.
Spherical modular social structure accomodates all of these various issues. For example... in a spherical modular structure.. the definition for "the guardians of the free republics" would be loose, such that each group would vary slightly or significantly from the others, allowing a selection pressure to operate on the groups and drive them towards stronger positions. Specific complaints would be known as a matter of standard not to apply to every group faction.
I agree that some of their ideas in general are nonsense. At the same time, I have no choice but also to agree that they have some things right. I have to support the things I believe are right.. and in whatever way possible, combat the things I don't believe are right.
But the key issue here is:
In the U.S. we have three options politically...
1:Stick with the same shit.
2:Go back to the constitution.
3:Try to build something entirely new.
I can't support #1 and the guardians are covering #2, and know how to do it. The only other option is #3... there are problems with that one.
Problems:
#1 An extremely experimental form of politics will also naturally be extremely risky. Slow evolution is probably the proper way instead.
#2 The public is certain to resist completely novel ideas that they know nothing about.
Matt S said this on September 11, 2010 at 12:01 am | Reply

Are you guys familiar with neural computing? The features of neural computing are extremely important for social structure. Prometheuspans's one bad apple spoils the whole barrel stance suggests that he may not be. I just want to know if this is something I need to do some talking about.
Matt
Matt S said this on September 12, 2010 at 3:55 am | Reply

"Are you guys familiar with neural computing?"
yes, fascinating how dead cells actually add to the computational matrix and all... in any case, your point it off both because i am quite familiar with it and its paradoxes and because your metaphor is week.
prometheuspan said this on September 14, 2010 at 5:49 am | Reply

Hmmm... so why would you think that comparing society to neural computing would be a weak metaphor? It seems to me that the only to come to your conclusion is to have been focussed on neural computing in concrete biological terms rather than in more abstract AI terms. In any case, you didn't explain yourself very well, so I don't know what I am shooting at. The key issue here is that the parallelism and nonlocalism inherent in neural computing drastically reduces the need to have huge numbers of people who agree on an accurate view of reality. Societal data flow and processing is obviously parallel and non-local. In fact, there are some serious problem with the idea of getting all of the information correct in one place and then amplifying the "solution" to the whole world. 1: This is basically another pyramid scheme. 2: There is more problem than any small group can comprehend. 3: reality very strongly resists the concept of perfect amplifiers.. especially a:on a very large scale b:with serious information degradation and comprehension problems
The whole idea of locally coming up with a solution to everyones problems is exactly what people have been trying to do and what has failed. Neural nets show that non-local computing can be highly effective, and the development of open systems concurs. Trying to be enough super-genius to solve everyones problems is a mistake. The proper solution is much more simple than that. Wolfram fabulously demonstrated that complex calculations can be done with systems that use only simple rules .. as a general case... and not even just for neural networks. The solution is not to be a super hero and know everything, but to provide society with tools that help them to agglomerate and globalize their collective intelligence. Neural networks in nature do this. Single neurons are stupid (the simple rule motif) but entire brains are not. Inspire society to agglomerate in the form of a reasonable intelligence architecture, and you won't have to solve their problems, they will solve them themselves.
Matt
Matt S said this on September 16, 2010 at 3:55 am | Reply

"I can't support #1 and the guardians are covering #2, and know how to do it. "
No, they don't, they don't know how to do it, and they aren't interested in it, in fact you are duped, they have no interest in the constitution and every interest in christian fascism.
I like the idea of going back to more original constitution fine.
But lets not be dupes for a scam thats just using that idea as a hook.
"The only other option is #3... there are problems with that one.
Problems:
#1 An extremely experiment"
I don't at this moment find that this conversation is really worth answering. Its like you ramble on. You don't know what you are talking about. Your three possibilities are only three out of many other possibilities. Your ideas about causality are simply wrong.
You have no business trying to tell anybody how things are or should work and no clue how to approach really working any real world problem.
Entertaining this conversation with you is thus pointless.
prometheuspan said this on September 14, 2010 at 5:53 am | Reply

People naturally disagree. I don't know where you get the religious fascism idea. I would be interested in knowing. I haven't gotten that impression from them at all. In fact, just to check on your idea, I spent 30 minutes discussing it with someone who has been involved with the movement since the beginning on both local and global scales. Her assertion is that your assertion as to their religious extremism is iconically false even though they are generally religious people. In fact, she asserts that in all of her experience with the movement, the only religious values that have been consistently promoted is the return to God or creator given rights given in the constitution. She even said that the idea of claiming it is a christian nation was brought up and struck down, meaning that there is not even a unified notion of what the creator is, meaning that for example, that pantheism is just as valid of a view as any. And I'm sorry, but given the choice of believing your assertion vs her lengthy, intimate experience with the movement, I have to disregard your opinion as being somehow distorted. I don't know how you came to such distortions. I have seen their grand jury oath, and it refers exclusively to items regarding the constitution. Its the only document that I am aware of that can reasonably be trusted to convey the genuine intent of the organization because its the only document that you can promise yourself that they all agree on.
Furthermore, my experience with the guardians is that they are very interested in the concept of a resource based economy because they hate the current economic system. So from my point of view, you are flippantly discarding valuable allies.
What irritates me though is that rather than explain your personal views well enough to see where you are coming from, all you want to do is to hurl insults and attempt to run over me as if my opinions are inconsequential. I guess all we need to do to fix the world is insult each other and refuse to teach each other anything. And yet upon specific investigation, it turns out that it is almost certainly your opinion that is fouled rather than mine in this case.
Look, I have respect for people who have studied because I have done that myself, and I know that it can expand ones mind. However, I am starting to think that beyond being studied, it's possible that you don't personally have the proper charactistics for development collective intelligence. The first thing about collective intelligence is that it is collective. The second thing is that positive structures can not be built with negative behaviors. Yet all I see from you is negative behavior and conceipt that isn't even properly justified. I'm hoping that under circumstances, your behavior is more respective of your goals.
Matt S said this on September 16, 2010 at 6:09 am | Reply

"And I'm sorry, but given the choice of believing your assertion vs her lengthy, intimate experience with the movement, I have to disregard your opinion as being somehow distorted. "
Given that i studied cults and cult psychology, you;d think maybe
you'd consider things the other way but this is not that important to me. You have your mind set so go be a fool and a dupe.
Its not really something that concerns me.
they are transparently a fascist christian cult, period. If you can't see that then you need to start reading their materials more closely with a mind thats got more in it than the dippy bs you present here. Which is probably impossible. Which is to say i understand why they are opaque to you. You are a blithering idiot
with no clue about anything.
You want to come in here and play like you you stuff you don't
play like you have perspective you don't, and play like your mere opinion in ignorance is meaningful when it isn't.
I'm not interested in your opinion and i don't put forth mine.
I put forth the facts in reality, which i am qualified to know.
prometheuspan said this on September 17, 2010 at 12:01 am | Reply

"What irritates me though is that rather than explain your personal views well enough to see where you are coming from,"
I don't owe you anything, and this discussion is about the tvp cult not some other cult.
You are off topic and you don't have any claim to sense.
"all you want to do is to hurl insults and attempt to run over me as if my opinions are inconsequential. "
Yes. Thats right. Your opinions are inconsequential. As soon as you have something more than a mere opinion to share, it might be different, but then you won't bring in ludicrous BS any more so we won't be in this cycle together.
"I guess all we need to do to fix the world is insult each other and refuse to teach each other anything. And yet upon specific investigation, it turns out that it is almost certainly your opinion that is fouled rather than mine in this case."
whatever.
you had your mind made up in the matter before you brought up this laughable cult and i was never going to change it. If you think i am dumb enough to waste my time shoveling at the black hole of your intentional self deluding ignorance, then you are simply making an assumption that i will give you my time and energy when there is no cause to make that assumption.
prometheuspan said this on September 17, 2010 at 12:05 am | Reply

" I'm hoping that under circumstances, your behavior is more respective of your goals."
Yes, i just uploaded a hundred or so images to RBEF
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=520&t=2561
Those images are with only two or three exceptions generated by me using autocad and sketchup.
I really don't have time for all the bs, I'm the one doing the work.
prometheuspan said this on September 17, 2010 at 12:08 am | Reply

Well, I'm not an architect, so I can't assess your drawings. Actually more to the point, I'm not personally interested in them even though I realize some people may be. For me, social structure is the primary issue. Architect work is fine, but it seems like a side track, unless there is a specific plan on the horizon. Frankly, I think RBEF should alot a special collaboration domain for those who wish to develop architecture. But I suppose they may yet be to small for that.
Matt S said this on September 17, 2010 at 10:13 pm | Reply

oh no, they aren't christian fundies. really. truly. Rule under them would be just like going back to the consitution. (Er. With the christian version of sharia law, but never mind that.)
I will not trade one capitalist dystopia for a christian fascist dystopia; I'm simply not that stupid.
The details of their plan are interesting, but just like with TVP the problem is that they are nutjob whackos, aside from the good ideas.
----------
"Apply to become one of the Guardians of the Free Republics and juror on the De jure Grand Jury.
By entering your private information, you are requesting in the presence of the Creator
to be considered as a guardian member of the Guardians of the Free Republics and a juror
on the De jure Grand Jury of your respective republic. Only courageous people of high spiritual
intention who are willing to stand when called upon, who are drawn to this calling,
with forgiveness in their hearts, should apply.
You will also be registering simultaneously as a member of the sovereign People
on the land of your respective republic."
http://www.guardiansofthefreerepublics.com/front-page.html
prometheuspan said this on September 17, 2010 at 12:17 am | Reply

First of all, its on topic because part of building a success is collecting allies. Do-it-yourselfers can't win any significant political battles.
Gosh... well, thanks for spending your precious time on little old me, cause you know... I'm just human and you are a Demi-god. In fact, I should probably name you pharoah and start worshipping you. Yeah, I have seen that page. I'm really surprised that you interpret that as negatively as you apparently do. You know, I wish you would come up with something significant so that I could side with you with some kind of feeling of certainty, but to me this just looks like you are allergic to any/all religious rhetoric without consideration of the genuine intent behind the rhetoric. And I'll admit right away that if you have a major allergy of this kind, you could have trouble getting along with these people because they are not afraid to use the word "God" or "Creator". Nevertheless, I have it on good report as well as personal experience that religious values other than "inalienable human rights" are not generally promoted during their meetings.
Now your claim to being mr. fact, not opinion sounds to me about as good as some religious claims to having seen [their version of] God.
In any case, most americans are religious in some sense, so I don't see this as a surprise. The real question shouldn't be whether they use words you don't like, but do they intend things that you don't like? Frankly, I don't see any bad intentions here. First of all, they are being rather flexible by using the word "Creator" in order to accomodate people of differing directions. After discussing with many of them, it has become clear to me that the Genetic algorithm as a version of a creator is perfectly acceptable. The core issue to them is that the creator is not some government, and that human rights are more fundamental than government.
High spiritual intention just means stuff like freedom, love, harmony, responsibility, charity, etc. And frankly, without some of this kind of values, I don't see how you are ever going to get anywhere far. I don't see what's wrong with forgiveness excepting the possibility that one must first assume some form of guilt [which is inherent in the notion of law]. But in any case, it wouldn't be the forgiveness that would be a problem.
Coming down to brass tacks, the only issues I can imagine being a serious problem for non-religious would be that this group probably wouldn't favor issues like gay marriage. They might not want to legalize Marijuana. They might most of them be pro-lifers. They are fundamentalists.. what other sort of people would be trying to re-install the constitution? But the whole idea of the constitution is to put limits on government power. That means that if a bunch of liberals come in and vote for gay marriage and win, then their own constitution says that they win, and they are bound by its limits. When it comes right down to it, most of their core values are unlikely to differ far from what I have seen yours to be. There is not even a unified notion amongst them of what "God" is. Maybe I'll discover otherwise somewhere down the line, but My sensation about them being a "fascist cult" is that you are paranoid. However, I am also getting the sensation that your opinion on that issue is not likely to change, so I am going to drop that topic out of realization that it's probably just wasted time because except for your understanding of government in common with them, you are basically a hard core liberal. The only last words I have is that if you can't work with any one who doesn't see things just like you, then you basically can't work with anyone.
Matt S said this on September 17, 2010 at 9:15 pm | Reply

"you are basically a hard core liberal. "
No. I'm so outside of that false dualism mental cage that any pondering inside of it from my perspective is like ants bickering
over a chess board thats scaled for them to play.
It seems i get to do this twice today, and i don't even need to bother to more than cut and paste.
prometheuspan said this on September 18, 2010 at 1:09 am | Reply

I'm continuing here instead of past the crux point.
Here are some more facts to consider.
1. I am in expert in every major subject relevant to being a moderator.
2. I am an aspie, so that can happen in the first place.
3. As an aspie i am actually brain wired outside of the pack psychology box- ie; ego tripping and manipulative control and all that is
A GAME I UNIQUELY LIVE OUTSIDE OF.
4. I am thus uniqely empowered in multiple ways to be not only a good moderator, but the best moderator ever.
5. Much of the work I have done is in fact exemplary. Go read it again.
6. Dealing with an abusive person is not only about being nice to them; it is about creating the path to self empowerment that changes their behavior.
7. For particularly nasty people this may require me to look momentarily as nasty or much nastier than they are.
8. Watch me grow horns or a halo AT MY CHOICE.
9. Notice THEY CAN'T (easily) STOP OR CHANGE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.
10. Most humans by virtue of personality and personal choices are tidally locked as being nasty or nice people.
DM, COSAR, Venux, are +++ Extra NICE.
11. I'm the junkyard dog and dragon that they earned, the perfect compliment and reward for that;
somebody who lives where they do INSIDE OF NICE...
12. But somebody who also truly grasps and can emulate and play against "Mean."
13. DM, Cosar, and Venux ARE TOO NICE to allow people to mess up their space with crap. That. won't. be. tolerated.
14. With due love and respect to everyone, RBEF will be a civil and polite work space.
Re: Metaprocess Discussion
1. I have admin powers.
2. This isn't going to change.
3. While they may feel its an imperfect and sloppy first run, the Councilors are behind me on this.
4. I am NOT an ego maniac- far from it.
5. In proof; these are SERVICES I RENDER TO YOU; THE PUBLIC.
6. So, YOUTHEPUBLIC sez that the job is imperfect.
7. YAY!! i have an opportunity to learn
8. Please tell me ; exactly; how you would like to have your services rendered in the future
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=633&t=1996&p=16492#p16492
You want to be a GOFR dupe... go right ahead. Don't come crying and saying i didn't try to warn ya.
prometheuspan said this on September 18, 2010 at 1:12 am | Reply

Well, if you are not an egomaniac, (and I'll take your word for that for now even though you have chosen the names of demigods for your identifier here.. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt) then you must simply be extremely opinionated. Studies show that group intelligence consistently outperforms even the best experts. To me, you appear to be overconfident at bare minimum. Furthermore, some elements of extremism appear to be brooding on this blog. Examples of extremism fostering factors that hit home on this blog as described by Surowiecki:
1: a predefined framework for discussion
2: the discussion is dominated by people of similar opinions
3: your and anticultists attempts at achieving dominance
4: Group members with rigid and convinced stances
5: it is a small group
Almost every factor that Surowiecki lists as contributors to group extremism is here on this blog. So you should be aware that you have inherently set up a potential whirlpool of extremism. The only thing you can do to properly respond to this issue is to soften your rigid opinionated behavior and allow gracefully for others to have some meaningful variance of opinion. Not every important piece of information is available from your viewpoint, and value systems can be just as significant of an input into opinions as fact.
So, regarding GOFR... As I said in an earlier post... GOFR is not a primary concern for me. I feel loosely connected to them, but probably see myself more as a consultant, to help them see a bigger picture (at least in this state).
The real reason I brought up GOFR was not even to convince you of it, but to test your behavior towards potentially new material, so that I could get a notion, just how difficult it might be to interact with you and convey some ideas. What I have learned so far is that you can be difficult to interact with... but I have also learned that your favorite topic of contribution appears to be architecture rather than social structure. But additionally, I have learned that you have little tolerance for people of different opinions. This attribute of yours does not mix well with spherical modular social structure unless you simply operate inside of a particular module, and not as any kind of Liaison between modules. Of course, everyone can find themselves their proper place given time and freedom.
The world is now facing the biggest beast ever created. I disagree with your apparent attitude of divisiveness. We can not afford to divide ourselves when struggling against this kind of monster. That thing is just too damned big and bad. Every social student knows that it is imperative to build on common grounds, rather than to divide up based on differences. This is a fundamental strategy of unity, far more fundamental than clever structures like pyramids or markets or modular spheres or RBE. Now I may not have 20 degrees, but I probably have the equivalent of around 8. And that's plenty to be competent in the discussion of focussed topics, so you can't intimidate me. And neither can your friend, or the both of you together for that matter.
Modern math shows that complex structures and intelligence architectures arise from simple rules just as easily as from complex rules. This is why, for example, given the proper circumstances, markets can outperform pyramids.
And regarding comparisons of social structure to neural network structure... First of all, choose any two things, they can be both compared and contrasted. Comparing them is an act of abstraction while contrasting them is an act of concretization. Modern physics has demonstrated that abstraction is a very important key to unlocking the universe. So I tend to compare rather than contrast.
On an abstract level, all neurons do is receive a fan-in of signals from peer neurons, process the signals, and output a fan-out to peer neurons. People do the very same thing. Money itself is an example of a kind of signal that fans through the collective. Its the neural nature of the monetary system including inherent feedback mechanisms, that gives it the character of a non-local neural computing system. Therefore giving it enough intelligence to do the Job even though it is made of the simple rule: buy when you want to, don't buy when you don't want to or can't. RBE can be nothing other than an attempt to replace one intelligence architecture with another. For me, RBE is more intriguing than building architecture. But less intriguing than social architecture even though RBE is really a social architecture. One thing I am convinced of regarding RBE is that the proper solution is actually a simple one rather than a complex one. And the reason for this is that math and the universe both show that simple rules can do complicated stuff just as well as complicated rules. The other thing I am convinced of is that a proper RBE functions non-locally.
Now on the other hand, there will never be an RBE if grass roots can't get it together and root out the current mess. And the fundamental recipe for that is wide-scale understanding and use of the best known principles of social structure. The whole damned thing really depends on social structure, which is highly dependent on information flow structure. That's how I see it, and I am strongly convinced that this is the most important place to spend efforts.
I'm not against your architecture work... I think its fabulous and would not take the stance of TZM in dampening anyones efforts to achieve something. This is in fact a prime example of the oppressive dampening effects of pyramid architecture. Rather it would be my goal to help those types of people to connect and interact with each other in a standardized fashion that is cognizant of known functional features of intelligence architecture. Furthermore, in creating a spherical grass-roots social architecture, I believe the foundation is laid for a potential non-local RBE.
Matt
Matt S said this on October 3, 2010 at 2:43 am | Reply

[...] The science that is missing and completely wrong in the venus project [...]
Zeitgeist Blogs: Zeitgeist is a Mind Heist « Zeitgeist Movement Exposed said this on November 10, 2010 at 9:11 pm | Reply

extensive blog you corner
baidu678 said this on September 8, 2011 at 11:07 am | Reply

OWS is besiged by TZMers ... help..
http://occupywallst.org/forum/resource-based-economy-sub-forum/#comment-189541
prometheuspan said this on October 24, 2011 at 12:15 am | Reply

The reason this is so is because this is what Zeitards do...They find somewhere that allows them to post their shite and they swarm on it like a bunch of shit beetles looking for more turd to roll in.
Simple fix is to ban any zeitards and censor their cult garbage, that is what they do to people who have normal questions on their own forums. In fact they have closed them down now as they were such a blatant embarassment to the cult leader.
anticultist said this on October 24, 2011 at 8:02 am | Reply

@Joseph Matthews
fuck off
Seriously though you add nothing here, you're a dimwit with no scientific background who likes to ponce around like a gatekeeper for a psuedo intellectual conspiracy theorist cult.
Congratulations you have achieved zero in this thread and have wasted your time.
If you only would realise how boring you are and how little you give anyone reading your mundane rants, you provide nothing of substance and cant even defend your cults lack of science. Instead you babble on like a whiny bitch as if you were on your cults forum, you're an embarassment.
anticultist said this on July 17, 2010 at 4:30 am | Reply

Frankly, it is your demeanor which also makes me wonder about you. Other than that , I find you quite interesting. It is the interesting part that has me patiently waiting to see if we can strike a chord.
Matt S said this on July 17, 2010 at 5:25 am | Reply

My demeanour is simply the behaviour of a person who has dealt with this person for over a year and have seen nothing from him but the previous.
I have dealt with people like this guy for too long [including other members of their culty forum], whilst you may have the patience of a saint and can tolerate fools gladly, i see no reason for politeness when its wasted on fools such as him.
anticultist said this on July 17, 2010 at 5:31 am | Reply

Well it grates a little on me to watch you treat people aggressively. Usually there are polite ways of rejecting people that are also quite effective. Furthermore, your misbehavior gives him more ammunition.
Matt S said this on July 19, 2010 at 9:48 pm | Reply

I have to be honest I am not here to please you.
If how i treat him is not to your liking you could simply ignore it, but theres nothing to worry about hes no longer allowed to post here. He never brings anything in all the time he has been here. Also I need to add this you havent had to deal with the the things I have with him and others from his group.
When I started this blog up I was aware I would be targeted by them, and I have had to endure endless abuse from them, a lot of which you will never read on this blog because I have not allowed it to be posted, but lets say its been enough to make me have little respect for their membership. I initially started with the intention of it being polite and not attacking them outright, just posting matters they did not want people to discuss on their forum, but its ended up they have antagonised me enough to not worry about their opinion anymore.
anticultist said this on July 20, 2010 at 1:17 am | Reply

Look, I don't want to judge you, I'm just expressing myself. You can respond as you like, but if you won't let him post, then perhaps there is no point in worrying about anything regarding him for now. Now, not being interested in pleasing people that's a slightly different, but related issue. Personally, I don't assume that I'm some kind of an island that doesn't need the good will of others, and you are mistaken if you see yourself that way, and the success of your efforts will have to wait until you do care about how you impact others. The really successful open source people have genuine social prowess. They accomplish things by making collaboration with them into a rewarding experience. They are people that other people want to be around. Just read Torvalds "the cathedral and the bazaar" http://catb.org/esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/index.html#catbmain Torvalds turned Linux into something by virtue of social genius as well as by having a vision. Yeah, I remember the days when I thought that pedagogic abilities were all that mattered... I turned from that path long ago and invested myself in other directions. Well, everyone has to choose his own path. Sometimes we need people who do nothing but math, but frankly, I'm confident I could accomplish what I intend with a group of programmers less well studied than yourself. Nevertheless, I would be pleased at the opportunity to absorb some of what you have uncovered, and to see what can be accomplished.
That's interesting, what you say about their behavior towards you. So far, I have yet to experience that kind of behavior from them, but I suppose that is of limited meaning. Anyways, as stated earlier, I am not interested in their forums. I will be looking to assemble a team of programmers by searching amongst their people... or elsewhere if need be.
Matt S said this on July 31, 2010 at 2:18 am | Reply

Each to their own, for now I will keep as tight a blog as I can from pitch invasions by zeitgeisters
anticultist said this on July 31, 2010 at 11:04 am | Reply

not easy eh
The RSVP Network said this on August 18, 2010 at 12:25 pm | Reply

No it can be a nuisance as it requires me to monitor their posts every day, and some of which pretend to be fence sitters like Nate D, then later on down the line after a few posts you realise theyre complete fanboys of Jacque Fresco and Peter Merola. Their only reason for posting here it turns out is to argue on behalf of them.
anticultist said this on August 18, 2010 at 12:42 pm | Reply

Peter,VTV,Thunder et only do the "alternative" and underground radio and not at places where people actually know what they are talking about since as prometheuspan said they cant deal with interrogation and debate and prefer those with their own biases.Now I know I said Id ring in and quash their nonsense earlier on if they did do a show but I dont pay too much attention to the TZM forums(even though Ed Winston and the others at Conspiracy Science said they would never make an attempt at mainstream)but as I suspected a couple of anti-capitalist yahoos went on air and made asses of themselves.Personally I havent or do intend to watch it as its probably to cringe worthy to sit through but here it is a couple of naive Zeitgeisters one of my countries most prominant political programmes(Finnancial Frontline) talking about....you guessed it THE FED & MODERN MONEY MECHANICS!! Lol


P.S. Please tell me they embarass themselves and the presenters talk down to them a bit I really dont want to watch it I fell ashamed simply by the fact they went on it at all.
Shane Nolan said this on August 18, 2010 at 9:00 pm | Reply

And here is part 3:


Shane Nolan said this on August 18, 2010 at 9:06 pm | Reply

I already watched these videos a while back when they went online and its all funny stuff. They are just two guys from Ireland and theyre given so much respect by the presenters, calling them intelligent and clever etc.. It is almost like the presenters have no idea what the subject matter is and therefore are unable to even discuss the materials so they just let these two guys say what they want on air without ever questioning them thoroughly about it.
Yes it is just a show advertising TZM and the federal reserve viewpoint that they hold.
anticultist said this on August 18, 2010 at 9:27 pm | Reply

Click to get back to topic starter

Click to get back to topic starter


anticultist blog comment continued...

After having spend some time with the work of different conspiracy theorist I agree that their work is not beyond criticism and neither their methods. While I found Zeitgeist quite sober, Alex Jones seems to make a lot of bold statements and it is impossible to investigate every accusation he makes. But that doesn't change the facts put forward by an army of scientists, engineers and so on about 9/11. And as long as these so called conspiracies are not taken seriously, and does not become a part of the mainstream debate, we will never know the truth. In my experience the truth is distilled out of the diversity of opinion and I cannot see why 9 11 and the whole Federal Reserve conspiracy theory are so dangerous that they cannot be discussed in a sober way. I heard once that "truth is not afraid of questions" and I believe that is true.
Regarding the title with accompanying article: "The psychological profile of a conspiracy theorist" I wonder if you would put Abraham Lincoln, Woodrow Wilson, JFK and every united states president that rebelled against the notion of a Federal Reserve into that box? Where they merely crazy conspiracy theorists or did they just see the world more clear? Through out history, dating back to ancient Rome, statesmen and thinkers have observed and criticized those in power. For good reason? Probably. I don't think there is anything revolutionizing in Zeitgeist, it probably just describes the world as it has always been. But that doesn't mean that the world cannot be improved on. I like the idea proposed by the Venus project, and can really not see why that is not possible in a couple of thousand years. But I cannot imagine that the Venus project becomes a reality soon. Not because it's a bad idea, but because it would require a transformation in the human condition that is so drastically that it is unlikely to happen all at once
claus said this on May 20, 2010 at 4:19 pm | Reply

911 has already been discussed in mainstream by numerous scholars, thinkers, researchers and crackpots. The general consensus is what is stated on the tin: planes crashed into the towers, people were killed and america went to war because of it.
The conspiracy notions arent ignored because theyre dangerous, theyre ignored because they've been refuted over and over and over. And its generally the mind set of a conspiracist to believe in it even when presented with evidence, that is unless the evidence confirms their biases.
Would I dare to class woodrow wilson or abraham lincoln in the same league as crackpot conspiracists? No
Since conspiracists tend to think they are in the know of some hidden knowledge and facts noone else has, it is usually just a simple case of delusion. That is not to say that shady things dont happen, but when the evidence states otherwise like JFK/911 etc etc etc then its simply time to move on and get over it.
http://conspiracyscience.com/forums/
anticultist said this on May 20, 2010 at 4:26 pm | Reply

Ha! Been dicussed in the mainstream? What, by Natgeo's fail of a debunking? 9/11 has not come even close to being debunked, let alone in the mainstream. And as for JFK, you are apparently ignoring my previous post, the JFK conspiracy is very popular and a 6.5 lapua, nor any other bullet, can pull that magic bullet shit.
gavin said this on May 20, 2010 at 6:37 pm

its called a conspiracy theory because there is no real evidence to support the conspiracy. If it had solid irrefutable evidence everybody would just call it a conspiracy fact.
Conspiracy theorists collect massive amounts of misinformation from unacceptable sources and call it fact, all the while ignoring real facts released by universities governments, the news, and scientists [Anti Credentialism is just a neat way to avoid listening to more educated and well researched people, and at the same time using less credentialed people as their evidence].
This is because CT'rs have created a wild fantasy in their mind and no matter how many times you prove them wrong they will always ignore the fact they were wrong. Selective/Confirmation bias.
That would be you Gavin. You are a cherry picker.
anticultist said this on May 20, 2010 at 6:49 pm

Listen and learn Gavin you need it as much as the next person. Ive watched it, listened and paid attention.
anticultist said this on May 20, 2010 at 6:58 pm

Have a bit of Freud while you're at it.
anticultist said this on May 20, 2010 at 7:08 pm

Apparently you are forgetting that the entire point of the 9/11 truth movement is to get an investigation. No one is claiming to have all the answers, it is a theory overall but there are facts within. Chances are, none of the theories that people have come up with regarding 9/11 are correct but they fit the evidence.Perhaps you need to watch this and realize that it was not reptiod theorists that dominate the 9/11 truth movement, but honest people who see that the official conspiracy theory is a bunch of shit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak2MjMhST1Y
Gavin said this on May 20, 2010 at 11:05 pm

The fact you say I think reptoids believers are all there are is a complete joke, I havent even once said that.
Likewise the fact you call the official investigations and academic peers evidence an 'official conspiracy theory' and without quotation marks speaks volumes about your mind set.
official conspiracy theory my arse
Im not forgetting anything Gavin, the people involved in the truth movement being bandied as experts are no such thing.
If you want to have a 911 chat and detract from your own psychological status, [ie your conspiracist thinking] I suggest go to conspiracy science forum here:
http://www.conspiracyscience.com
Take it up with them, they will be willing to teach you a few things, that is if you are willing to learn.
PS
My father is an ex-fireman, hes been involved in hundreds of fires and guess what ?
Shit explodes... even in house fires.
anticultist said this on May 20, 2010 at 11:12 pm

Response to Gavins WTC7 explosion video --- ANY FURTHER DISCUSSI0N 0F THIS TAKE IT T0 C0NSPIRACY SCIENCE:
The sound at 1.13 seconds is from 7 HOURS EARLIER... if it is genuine at all.
http://www.911myths.com/index.php/A_WTC7_explosion_video
The rest of the explosions up until 1.44 are just random explosion sounds, this is entirely expected. Where are all the explosion sounds when the building collapses, like an ACTUAL DEMOLITION?
And then we have Kevin McFadden, who is Alex Jones' friend and lied about a radio countdown.

I particularly love it when truthers use McFadden since it conflicts with their argument. McFadden describes massive earthshaking explosions "ba-boom! ba-boom!" when WTC7 falls, since this was certainly not picked up by any videos in the area or anyone else or described by any of the firefighters that waited around for WTC7 to collapse its pretty obvious they never happened.
And of course we have Barry Jennings, truthers claim he was thrown around by explosives... 7 hours before it collapses again... but of course he didn't sustain any injuries consistent with explosives either.
Eric Lawyer... a conspiracy theorist firefighter from Seattle who was not a first responder and is hated by the FDNY.
taken from here: http://conspiracyscience.com/forums/topic/911-nutters#post-7155
anticultist said this on May 21, 2010 at 2:37 am

thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kb&task=article&article=3&Itemid=100091
The official story is an official conspiracy theory, plain and simple, it has never been proven that Osama had anything to do with it and there has never been any investigation worth a damn.
And BTW, this is not shit blowing up like in a house fire: http://youtube.com/watch?v=cCAoJuDw2Ic
Gavin said this on May 20, 2010 at 11:35 pm

First up Gavin I am glad you have made the last few posts, you have simply proven everything I am saying.
People like you will believe anything on youtube even though you have zero credibility/experience/education in anything to do with fires, architecture, aircraft crashes, or high level physics. You cite a youtube video with a few flashes as some kind of evidence that there is explosives and a conspiracy theory to blow it up?
You have more than likely never been in any kind of building on fire like a multi story building, and apartment block, a house, a factory, what would you know about anything?
The answer quite simply is nothing, you are watching a video and placing your pre concieved bias on it and then using it as a confirmation to your conspiracist mindset. Firemen regularly through out their careers go into numerous hazardous situations, with varied fires and scenarios, I think I would trust their opinion about what happens in fires above your insignificant video that shows nothing of concern.
oh and before you start citing the firemen at 911 talking about explosions, their statements have been taken out of context, they were not saying that there was a conspiracy to blow it up, they were explaining how the building reacted to the fire, IE it was blowing up, and there were explosions in it, like I just said, explosions happen in fires....FFS
You post a link to zeitgeist which is completely irrelevant and off topic. which I have edited to not hotlink
You ignored my suggestion not to talk about 911 here, and ignored my suggestion you take it to a forum who will gladly entertain your delusions which I even linked for you to have your wild delusions entertained.
All the while you are showing your stubborness, your thick head, your wild notions of reality, and everything I have said and posted above is evidenced in you here.
I have checked out your posts and theyre quite simply ridiculous.
Do you even see how crazy you are making yourself sound ?
PS these are all rhetorical questions, don't bother answering anymore I have no time to play the 911 merry go round with a tin foil hatter. Chances are you are going to ignore this as well, because thats what you conspiracy nutters are like.
anticultist said this on May 21, 2010 at 12:11 am

Interesting videos and yeah - for the most part - there is a lot of fearmongering out there and I guess we can blame Hollywood and the video game industry for that. There's either a new army video game or a new horror film out when I watch commercials today and when people go online to find online documentaries to want to learn more about current events, they most likely hit a film with conspiracy theories in the mix, what do you expect? So, we're all normal from our environment. I mean, Alex Jones alone has worked on over 20 documentaries himself rather it was directed or produced by him. So we can't just sit here and just call the Zeitgeist Movement silly conspiracy theorists as if the Zeitgeist films started the conspiracy psychology. Obviously Peter Joseph was influenced by him (AJ) heavily rather he tries to deny it or not. About the last video though, I do understand the authority connection - people do in some ways want to be "King Monkey" if you will about who discovered what first. Therefore I see the competition mindset there already in people because of that rather it's watching the news finding out something or bragging about what new movie or game you have. And I do think some people like a little mystery and I think some people want simple answers. Not all people want simple answers because people are simply curious. As we were kids, I'm sure we bothered are parents a lot by asking questions:

There's nothing wrong with questioning things at all.
Here's a video I would like to share with y'all:

"The argument from ignorance, also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam ("appeal to ignorance" , argument by lack of imagination, or negative evidence, is a logical fallacy in which it is claimed that a premise is true only because it has not been proven false, or is false only because it has not been proven true."
Links:
http://changingminds.org/disciplines/argument/fallacies/from_ignorance.htm
http://www.startbreakingfree.com/tag/argument-from-ignorance
http://skepticwiki.org/index.php/Argument_from_Ignorance
Just something to throw in about UFO. Remember what it stands for ladies and gentlemen. I think Neil DrGrasse Tyson is the shiznit.
BranManFloMore said this on May 20, 2010 at 10:24 pm | Reply

Indeed questioning is absolutely essential, thats part of the whole psychology of being human.
And is part of the critical thought processes and learning.
The problem arrives when we draw faulty conclusions due to our misunderstanding/ignorance/nievete and personal biases.
If one has never looked deep into the CT world one cant discuss it fully, and likewise if one has never been a functional part of the 'normal' society one cant discuss it fully and truthfully.
It takes a truly open mind to get to the real facts, someone prepared to listen to all sides.
I have spent years listening to hardcore CT'rs and to be truthful most dont listen to the mainstream as if its any use. They are as bad as the ignorant people they claim need waking up.
anticultist said this on May 20, 2010 at 10:47 pm | Reply

thats why i left the ranks lol
prometheuspan said this on May 21, 2010 at 3:51 am | Reply

I think that Peter is a learning person. Can't ask for more than that.
GavinPalmer1984 said this on June 29, 2010 at 6:31 pm | Reply

You could ask for verified facts, and academic peer reviewed science.
You of all people should know Gavin
anticultist said this on June 30, 2010 at 4:05 am | Reply

Yes I can. I can ask for a learned person.
NWO Agent said this on June 30, 2010 at 11:08 pm | Reply

[...] A high percentage of the zeitgeist movements followers are conspiracy theorists drawn towards the movement through Peter's deceptive movies. His first two films attribute many facets of societies problems into externalised grand claims, such as the worlds problems are caused by a rigged financial system controlled by the federal bankers whose aim is to ruin the lives of people. This is apparently achieved by manipulation of companies, stocks, inf ... Read More [...]
The psychological profile of a conspiracy theorist « Peace & Nonviolence Project said this on July 19, 2010 at 5:41 pm | Reply

Why do you hide your name, I cant seem to click on your user name to view your profile, wanted to know more about YOU.
Is this possible, or does it bother you.
Don't mean to be a bother.
The RSVP Network said this on July 19, 2010 at 6:57 pm | Reply

Not sure who you are aiming that at ?
anticultist said this on July 19, 2010 at 8:19 pm | Reply

delete that anticultist, doesnt show a profile for you but your link is working now, might of been my netbook. DO you have facebook? Or any of you guys?
The RSVP Network said this on July 22, 2010 at 5:26 am

[...] The psychological profile of a conspiracy theorist [...]
Zeitgeist Blogs: Zeitgeist is a Mind Heist « Zeitgeist Movement Exposed said this on November 10, 2010 at 9:11 pm | Reply

Click to get back to topic starter

Click to get back to topic starter


Peter Joseph Merola misquoting as usual May.7.2010 38 56

http://web.archive.org/web/20110907010108/http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/05/07/peter-merola-misquoting-as-usual/

Before we go ahead and thrash his inability to check his sources lets look at the arrogance of this man posting this below:



Hmmmmmmmm.... Is peter implying that the work he is doing for the world is going to make him immortal ? Are we talking hugely misplaced levels of ego here? Peter Merola will be in the annals of history for his work on the three conspiracy movies he has done, and will be remembered as what exactly ? An immortal hero ?

Taken from here: http://zday2010.org/templates/zday2010_splashpage/images/FIRST_PAGE/quote.jpg

Peter Merola uses the above as his signature, funny though for a guy who checks his sources thoroughly he doesnt manage to even get the quote in his signature right.

Albert Pine? who is Albert Pine ?

Lets see shall we ?

Sky has come to the rescue and shown it was Albert Pike... see his post below

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Anticultist blog comments

Well, I can't say much here. And thanks for sharing.
I find his current signature interesting as well:
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=60&id=246777&limit=10&limitstart=50
(Don't worry, I print screened in case he tries to edit it)
Here it is:
"A human being is a part of the whole...He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separate from the rest - a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison...Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison - Albert Einstein, 1972″
But lets read the whole quote:
http://www.special-dictionary.com/quotes/authors/a/albert_einstein/96271.htm
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'universe,' a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separate from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
Why does he takes bits out of the original quotes he picks? It makes you wonder.
And yeah, 1972?
He came back to life with this quote back in 1972? When he passed away in...you guessed it - 1955:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/april/18/newsid_3721000/3721783.stm
So do any of these quotes mean anything to Peter Joseph? Seriously? Are these just ways to advertise the movement? Man... It just gets depressing.
Oh yeah, that original quote is from 1954 - which would make sense:
http://www.stumbleupon.com/stumbler/flyingrose/review/8711852
Oh Boy!
BranManFloMore said this on May 7, 2010 at 1:00 am | Reply

hahaha so lets see he got two of his signatures wrong consecutively.
He got the author wrong on one.
He misquoted and paraphrased Einstein, as well as got the decade wrong ? !
In light of this one has to ask, Peter how reliable is the rest of your research ?
anticultist said this on May 7, 2010 at 1:11 am | Reply

Him and his Alberts.
BranManFloMore said this on May 7, 2010 at 2:07 am | Reply

hahaha
17 years after Alberts death man !
I am still laughing about that
anticultist said this on May 7, 2010 at 2:55 am

Speaking of Alberts
Its funny what hes done is just open up a random search page for quotes and started at A and gone no farther.
"Yep that'll do a bit of editing, sounds like something I would say, add a date job done"
And about that Albert Pine thing its not just a case of him mispelling it because its mispelt all over the internet, he just dint check it at all.
http://thinkexist.com/quotes/albert_pine/
http://www.famous-quotes-and-quotations.com/albert_pine.html
http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Albert_Pine/
anticultist said this on May 7, 2010 at 3:26 am

It was Albert Pike who said it, not Albert Pine or Albert Paine. Albert Pike is the Freemason guy who is most famous for writing the book "Morals and Dogma"
The real quote:
"What we have done for ourselves alone, dies with us; what we have done for others and the world, remains and is immortal"
From the book: "Ex Corde Locutiones: Words from the Heart Spoken of His Dead Brethren"
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PTpRwZ1yEWwC&pg=PA11&dq=%22What+we+have+done+for+ourselves+alone%22&client=firefox-a#v=onepage&q=%22What%20we%20have%20done%20for%20ourselves%20alone%22&f=false
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091102160830AAJzvwN
Sky said this on May 7, 2010 at 3:20 am | Reply

ah well there you go I was wrong too hahaha
Thanks sky.
anticultist said this on May 7, 2010 at 3:27 am | Reply

I found another Albert mix up. In the first Zeitgeist movie, one of the quotes at the end starts out "Now, in our culture we've been trained for individual differences to stand out..". The movie transcript credits it to "Richard Albert" but his name is really Richard Alpert.
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/transcript.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Alpert
What is more interesting is in the original interview, Alpert is talking about his experiences taking LSD, but Peter Joseph edited out words like "psychedelic", completely changing the meaning so that it sounds like Alpert is talking about life or something.

"So do any of these quotes mean anything to Peter Joseph? Seriously? Are these just ways to advertise the movement?"
It seems so, we might as well just edit together our own quotes any way we like, just like Peter:
"I ...am a ...complete ...fraud." -Peter Joseph
Sky said this on May 7, 2010 at 3:51 am | Reply

"It seems so, we might as well just edit together our own quotes any way we like, just like Peter:
"I ...am a ...complete ...fraud." -Peter Joseph"
That made my day.
BranManFloMore said this on May 7, 2010 at 4:31 am | Reply

yes the editing can be verified here:

hah talking about LSD and tripping, but hes made it sound like its talking about something else. Thats just plain quote mining and editing the context.
anticultist said this on May 8, 2010 at 12:44 pm | Reply

And now I know where he got the whole "there is no they" statement from too, it's that video above your post (4:15):
http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.ca/forum/everything-else/there-no-they-by-peter-joseph-january-2009-t-127.html
Alpert also mentions Buckminster Fuller (3:05). I can't help but think that he (Peter Joseph) knew about Buck before discovering Jacque Fresco.
Thanks for sharing the info Sky.
BranManFloMore said this on May 8, 2010 at 1:02 pm

sheesh 3 Albert mistakes !
Im cracking up laughing here
If ever he interviews an Albert you just know theres going to be a ton of errors
anticultist said this on May 7, 2010 at 3:54 am | Reply

What the ALBERT is going on here?
BranManFloMore said this on May 7, 2010 at 4:17 am | Reply

If another Albert error pops up I think I will fall off my chair and be unable to get back up.
anticultist said this on May 7, 2010 at 4:29 am

Wait now you're analyzing his signature? WTF?! What's it going to be next, every word he says? oh wait you're already doing that...
And I see nothing wrong with Albert Pike quote, I will translate it to you mentally ill idiots here in a simple language, the quotes goes like this: "what you do for yourself isn't as great as what you do for the society".
There you have it. And any normal guest to this blog will see how Paul Jones (anticultist) turns people's words against them. This is a great example of that.
Watching Paul writing such nonsense on his blog and laughing at these muppets commenting is pricelles. :D
94.253.137.65
Croatdude said this on May 7, 2010 at 5:02 pm | Reply

Hey you are one of those freaks who religiously defends your guru, nice work son.
I suppose you didnt notice how shit his research was, did that fact go over your little backwards head ?
But that doesnt matter to you clowns, you'll swallow any old shit he shovels down your throat
anticultist said this on May 7, 2010 at 5:46 pm | Reply

p.s. I've noticed how you mention PJ's surname a lot...let me ask you, is his surname important? I think that everyone on this blog or everyone who will ever visit this blog will know who are you talking about if you just say "Peter Joseph". Now you may say that he is a leader of a huge social movement so his name must be known. Well let me ask you this, if you created a movie that was seen by 40 million people and got threats from people who want to hurt you and your family, would you hide your surname? Would you feel comfortable if some douchebag called you by your surname on his blog? Eh Paul Jones? If you like to show info about people, so much how about we show info about you? like this ...http://anticultist.wordpress.com
What's up lil alien loving boy? Not comfortable anymore when it's your head on the line?
94.253.137.65
Croatdude said this on May 7, 2010 at 5:09 pm | Reply

Yeah im fine with it keep it coming son, and some douchebag did call me by name on his blog and also has done here namely you little man :)
Lets see.. how many death threats has peter Joseph Merola had from people reading this blog about him ?
probably zero, and probably wont ever get any because of it either.
How many did he have because of his anti religious bigotry, and his allowance of it on his forum ?
Probably loads, and to be fair he brought it all on himself, I didnt make him become a douchebag to world religions he did that perfectly all on his own.
Likewise your conclusions about alien loving are fucking outstandingly funny, even I am laughing at how retarded a claim it is. But yeah keep those classic claims coming you just make yourself look like an idiot, and make your movement look even more fucking foolish.
I think its really funny that little old me can have such a huge impact on your so called powerful movement, to me you just look like a bunch of weak ass internet punks.
anticultist said this on May 7, 2010 at 5:59 pm | Reply

Peter Merola is qoute/text mining glad we debunked his ass! Conspiracy Science Team FTW!
Billll said this on May 8, 2010 at 10:53 pm | Reply

Here is a bit of my own misquoting:
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/6007/zeitgeistbannercopy.jpg
anticultist said this on May 9, 2010 at 3:30 am | Reply

I hope RBEF has a good laugh while that's in signature there.
Oh wait...
So far so good:
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=389&t=2196
Oh yeah.
BranManFloMore said this on May 9, 2010 at 4:03 am | Reply

In that video with Alpert did have a lot of meaning to the movement however it doesnt do the three muppets any favours once it deals about LSD.Ah yes lets solve all the worlds problems with take a few rounds of LSD and live in the magical land of Frescos model.Seriously that quote was not a good marketing gimmick as it doesnt deviate them from the space hippy cult image.
Shane Nolan said this on May 9, 2010 at 7:51 pm | Reply

In fact it enforces they are a watered down replica of the hippy movement of the 60′s. They may as well be quoting Ken Kesey, Albert Hoffman and Timothy Leary as viable persons that represent them.
anticultist said this on May 9, 2010 at 8:13 pm | Reply

Ok, so he edits his signature for length and accidentally copied the wrong date, woop-de-fucking-do. A misplaced level of ego? What the fuck are you talking about, PJ has said that we doesn't wish to be the head of TZM and wishes people would think for themselves instead of following him numerous times. You see, typically what happens when you create a virtual utopia is that people will know who you are, what a fucking surprise. Everyone is looking to make their imprint on history to some degree. Of course, if you actually thought for a second, you would realize that the quote is a comparison between selfishness and selflessness, not a declaration of wanting to make it into a history book. And you apparently don't see the hypocritical stupidity in attempting to shit all over PJ for getting a date wrong as a result of "no research" and then typing "who's Albert Pine?" obviously not knowing because you did no research. The quote appears as a quote by both Albert Pine and Albert Pike: http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/4375.html
Are you really this desperate to shit on everything Peter does?
Gavin said this on May 13, 2010 at 8:52 pm | Reply

I already knew it was a wrong quote Gavin you fucking dipshit thats why I made the post.
And I knew his einstein post was wrong, again why I made the post.
Peter is a grade A pseudo intellect Gavin, whether you want to believe it or not his research methods are crap. He has proven time and again that he gets things wrong and makes shit up to fit his agenda and refuses to withdraw and corect his imistakes. His small group of admin are just as bad, and yeah I couldnt give a shit about your silly little movement because its saving noone. In fact its doesnt even have the ability to save itself, so since you're here allow me to tell you a few things.
1: I could not give a fuck about your precious movement.
2: I have no respect for Peter as an academic [perhaps a little bit as a human being, when he acts like one]
3: You are just as much a fuck up for believing his shit
4: You are posting on here talking at me as if you think you know who I am and what I know
5: I know as much as any of your groups admin about your movement
6: Your emotional protectionism of your movement means nothing to me
I also love the way you interpret the quote your own way and say this is what it means, as if there is only one way to interpret anything. Funny because if that was the case you would not be disagreeing with me.
So in short Gavin suck a tail pipe.
anticultist said this on May 14, 2010 at 6:16 am | Reply

Desperate? No.
He could have picked a shorter quote from someone else if the signature space was the issue or have done a graphic signature to add in the whole quote. Either way, it's not a good look period. For someone that comes off as a leader, director, whatever title he wants to give himself - it's still embarrassing regardless. He may have declared himself not a leader, but when the 3rd film comes out - they will look at him as such and starstrucked - I assure you. There's no excuse for those slip ups in his signature. At all. It was a clear paste and copy job, you can try to define the quote for him all you want, but you're just wasting your time. And if he's getting quotes wrong on this level, one can only question his research in both films. All I see here is critical thinking and alternative views. You can throw your profanity around all you want, but it doesn't help your case. All I see is a bruised ego.
BranManFloMore said this on May 14, 2010 at 6:26 am | Reply

"The quote appears as a quote by both Albert Pine and Albert Pike"
There is no Albert Pine, if you search his name, the only thing that comes up is that one quote with no source. Someone just spelled Albert Pikes name wrong when quoting him once, and a bunch of other websites copied the mistake. Those "quotation page" type websites are garbage, the quotes are wrong or just made up half the time. I think that people who surf those site looking for quotes to use are moronic. Is Albert Pine some great philosopher whose writing has meaning to Peter? No, he has never read a Albert Pine book because Pine doesn't exist and Peter just spent five minutes looking for a quote that would make him look really cool having it in his post, just like editing Richard Alpert to make him say whatever he wants. Might as well just take a shit on the grave of the real person who wrote the quote.
Sky said this on May 14, 2010 at 8:22 pm
I noticed Peter Joseph took off the year from his Albert Einstein quote, he must be paying attention to us:
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=3&id=262763&limit=10&limitstart=10#263484
BranManFloMore said this on June 5, 2010 at 3:17 am | Reply

Man, you all sure do seem to hang on Peter Joseph and his movie a lot to think he is sorry as you try to make him out to be. Do you fear him? Are you jealous? Why do you seem to hang on him like a 9 year old with a crush? What he says connot be disproven about religion. That's why christians try to bash him so much. Maybe christians just need to go ahead and admit the fact that their religion is just baloney. But we can all read into that by the bashing and hating you try to do on Peter. If it was all just nonsense, his name wouldn't need to be mentioned, now would it?
Jason W said this on June 14, 2010 at 4:53 pm | Reply

While you may want to associate childishness with our methods and actions you are free to do so, but you are clearly way off the mark.
Peter fucks all his research up, uses other peoples work for his movies, then states the rrors in it are intentional and to promote critical thinking. He said this recently on his own forum.
Now he is hiring people to fix his poor research for his zeitgeist movie 1 update. So you say we are wrong, yet he himself is absolutely wrong and has been debunked thoroughly on various websites. This includes a lot of the religion part Acharya S has been debunked, his 911 material has completely debunked, and his ideas about the financial system IE money mechanics has been disputed if not debunked.
So when it comes to him misquoting people, getting dates wrong, saying Albert Einstein said this when he was dead, Albert Pine said this when he does not even exist...who is the dipshit [rhetorical question]
Of course the answer is him.
anticultist said this on June 14, 2010 at 6:06 pm | Reply

There have been thousands of movies, documentaries, audios, videos, comments, and whatever else over the past 2 thousand years over the same things. Mainly the religion part. What makes Peter so different? Why does he have to have everything right and not make any mistakes? It wasn't released in the theaters. His veiws, as is everyone elses on religion, is taken from other people's views, because these views have been around for centuries. Yet somehow he is different. Christians fear his truth. And the rest of you who are not christians, but still adamantly put him down, look ridiculous. He has the freedom to say what he wants. You people that have been indoctrinized your whole life think that no conspiracy theory ever exists. Everything is exactly as we've been brainwashed to think it is right? The government tells us the whole truth and nothing but the truth. And christianity and the bible were not truly made for mind control of the masses. You're anthropomorphic god does not exist.
Jason W said this on June 14, 2010 at 5:17 pm | Reply

Because he is starting a global movement to effect peoples lives based on flawed research, faulty statements, incorrect facts and lies. He will always and should always be scrutinised for that alone.
His freedom of speech is not contested, his speech is contested, try and understand the difference if you can manage.
Everyone has been indioctrinated, but some of us who know do not need a ton of BS conspiracy theories to prove it as shock factors. A simple study of psychology and sociology will reveal this to even the dumbest of people. Shit even morons who watch television all day deep down know they are being sold and indoctrinated whether you want to believe it or not.
And why are you asking those stupid questions, we do not even believe Peter Merola, what in the world makes you think we believe the government too ?
anticultist said this on June 14, 2010 at 6:12 pm | Reply

I just don't see the sense in getting all riled up over this. The TZM, or whatever it is, is hype for the moment. Nothing will come of it. In 6 months, nobody will even remember it. I just think too much hype is behind something that has been said many times. Do you really think this movement is going to make any kind of difference? And if it does, would that necessarily be bad? I know he has a lot of theories, but so do a lot of people. They may not be right, be they're not exactly flat out lies. And if they are, so what. People will believe what they want anyway. They're will be many more movies after this one. And I don't think this movement is going to change anything anyway. It just seems pointless.
Jason W. said this on June 15, 2010 at 2:36 am | Reply

You know what Jason i agree with you on a lot of what you said, but I have to correct you on one thing.
We are not getting riled up, we are just addressing the problems we have personally and 2′nd hand encountered, as well as redressing wrongs and pointing out flaws.
I know it can easily percieved as us being the bad guys because we are presenting a negative and counter claim but I promise you, the people involved in this are not hateful people. We are just folks being folks you know ?
anticultist said this on June 15, 2010 at 2:40 am | Reply

Just some folks indeed.
BranManFloMore said this on June 15, 2010 at 7:10 am

I hear ya anticultis. I understand. Maybe I would understand more, but I haven't even looked into the movement thing. Wasn't that interested. I liked the movie, especially the religion part. But thought the movement part to be a joke. Are your negative views more leaning towards the religion part, or the government conspiracy part? Or both? I don't put much into the govt part other than the fact that we'll never know how much we're being duped. I liked the way the religion part was put together. Even though a lot of his suggestions may not be exactly right, they are plausible. I enjoyed his views.
Jason W. said this on June 15, 2010 at 3:17 am | Reply

tbh I think most the movie is made up, there are some good points made in it and some oif its underlying motivations are fine. I am not into the whole blame the government thing or be paranoid for your life theyre out to get you crap.
This blogs more about our concerns with the movement and its members as well as problems with the venus project. The movie has been fuly covered everywhere else.
anticultist said this on June 15, 2010 at 12:45 pm | Reply

this whole effor by you and your commrades makes me sad. Let's support those that are trying to "solve" problems instead of creating more. Relax.
mario said this on June 16, 2010 at 6:45 am | Reply

We are here to present a case that is needed, relaxing is always happening mario.
anticultist said this on June 16, 2010 at 12:06 pm | Reply

MC Sleuth,
Then condense this information, take out the emotion and qualify your reasoning(aside from the misquotes and $2 entrance hustles in the 80′s). Or...? grab a brew and relax while we get busy. I am 36, i have a degree own my own companies and i am not an idealistic college kid. I do believe in trying something new if something old is broken. I also have NO FEAR. I believe we should all actualize change each and every way possible FAST. Or..? grab a brew and sit it on down. This blog is not "acualizing" anything. It is a big long winded complaint statement that looks as though it were finished some time around 4am. Relax. Get some sleep.
Seriously is considering an alternative to impending disaster that bad? I wouldn't give a shit who came up on a few bucks as long as the wider message gets spread. We need to fix our own problems.
mario said this on June 16, 2010 at 4:34 pm | Reply

I have a degree and further post graduate qualifications and education, I own my own business and work for various other companies too.
Telling me to relax and get some sleep hardly counters any of the claims made in it, in fact it only makes you look like a pompous twit attempting to step above the claims and make out like they are fantasy.
If you had any reasonable counter evidence you would present it and have no need to drop your silly quips on the blog.
And what impending disasters are you talking about? If you are talking economic collapse you're acting on armageddonist conspiracy theory rather than any actual economic facts and data. Do you think that the system will just cease to exist and money will dissapear in one day because of a collapse?
And if you think making an old fart and his girlfriend rich because they talk anecdotes and make people feel all warm and fuzzy about the future is a relevant cause go at it. Personally I prefer real life causes and real life people who deal with problems and solutions in the now that are based in facts and scientific evidences. These are the people who are doing the real changes, Jacque Fresco, Peter Merola have achieved nothing but talk and acruing a membership who spout their rhetoric. There are no scientific studies of their own, there are no actions they have done to save any lives, feed any people, house and clothe anyone, they are just making movies and lectures and being paid for it. Great call me when you do something of substance.
anticultist said this on June 16, 2010 at 4:43 pm | Reply

"Seriously is considering an alternative to impending disaster that bad?"
No, but thats not what TVP is, it is merely and only one more of the false mindfuck dead ends that lead back into impending disaster. And in fact, Jaques has said no RBE until after collapse.
TVP/ TZM is not a way to avert disaster, it is merely only one more obstacle I have to get around to avert disaster.
"I wouldn't give a shit who came up on a few bucks as long as the wider message gets spread. We need to fix our own problems."
Thats a fine idea, and thats why you should click on my name and get busy.
prometheuspan said this on June 16, 2010 at 10:23 pm | Reply

"And what impending disasters are you talking about? If you are talking economic collapse you're acting on armageddonist conspiracy theory rather than any actual economic facts and data."
Untrue, nobody seems to have introduced you to the hockey stick shaped bell curve. For any of twenty reasons this civilization must fail. Peak oil was reached in 2004-2005. If we don't transition over to a new energy economy our civilization must fail.
More importantly- both global warming and acidification of the oceans will self destruct our ecology if we don't stop polluting.
there are 20 different doomsday clocks ticking, all of them can be proven via science fact.
The problem with TVM is that it is only perpetuating and complicating the problems- it isn't doing anything about the problems or anything real to make a new world.
Its an obstacle to real change not a participant or driver of it.
Do you think that the system will just cease to exist and money will dissapear in one day because of a collapse?
prometheuspan said this on June 16, 2010 at 10:27 pm | Reply

I have heard of bell curves and hockey sticks, but it does not mean were all going to die tomorrow or next week, or in 2012. You do realise that species have been surviving through weather changes for aeons ?
Humanity as it is has been around for about 100,000 years or so at least when it formulated some form of higher reasoning.
Two words for you, ice ages...we survived them because we are resourceful.
I personally dont think that the species is completely buggered and will survive in small resourceful pockets if such things were thrown at us by nature.
But an economic collapse is simply just another problem of sociological issues we will have to overcome should it arise. I dont consider it to be on the cards with economic resistance and management in place from the people who run things and want to keep the system in continuation.
And anyway if Earth decides to shake us off and wipe us out, would it be such a bad thing for the planet ? Earth would still turn and it would heal pretty damn quick without us on it.
anticultist said this on June 16, 2010 at 11:02 pm | Reply

"this whole effor by you and your commrades makes me sad. Let's support those that are trying to "solve" problems instead of creating more. Relax."
They aren't trying to solve problems, they are in every meaningful way asking us to send money and wait for collapse and doing nothing to actually solve problems.
They are diabolizing and lying about people who are trying to solve the problems. They are not problem solvers, not even remotely.
I was banned from their site for trying to address why this is so,
and for pointing out that VTV was attacking people not moderating and thus breaking the rules.
TVP/TZM has nothing at all for real problem solving process.
I on the other hand have easily ten times more answers than they do and actual problem solving process and transition plan that could work.
prometheuspan said this on June 16, 2010 at 10:30 pm | Reply

"Man, you all sure do seem to hang on Peter Joseph and his movie a lot to think he is sorry as you try to make him out to be. Do you fear him? Are you jealous?"
No, why would i fear him? Jelous? You mean because hes got a cult of personality and i don't? no.
"Why do you seem to hang on him like a 9 year old with a crush?"
his cult is dangerous and counter productive and is an obstacle to my real work of saving the humans.
"What he says connot be disproven about religion."
Actually, as an atheist and a person whos bothered to study world religions, while the gist of the idea is right, that actual details he used to pull it together are all pathetically wrong,
And that can be easily proven by real religious scholars.
"That's why christians try to bash him so much. Maybe christians just need to go ahead and admit the fact that their religion is just baloney."
Thats a fine idea, but PJs version of atheism is just an anti christian denomination, and its just as much baloney as christianity is.
prometheuspan said this on June 16, 2010 at 10:36 pm | Reply

"I have heard of bell curves and hockey sticks, but it does not mean were all going to die tomorrow or next week, or in 2012."
I'd target 2020 to start seeing millions of people dead...
2050 for billions.
2075 for mad max and "the road" and "book of eli" etc.
"You do realise that species have been surviving through weather changes for aeons ?"
Yes, but we haven't had supersonic winds on this planet since at least the early formation of the atmosphere.
And getting meters of rain per evening on the coasts isn't weather as we think of it either.
"Humanity as it is has been around for about 100,000 years or so at least when it formulated some form of higher reasoning."
yes. Long enough to see some serious climate shifting.
"Two words for you, ice ages...we survived them because we are resourceful."
The entire ecosystem didn't collapse.
"I personally dont think that the species is completely buggered and will survive in small resourceful pockets if such things were thrown at us by nature."
At least into say 2100, but then you have to worry about how things evolve, the plagues that we will breed, the new insect problem, ...
"But an economic collapse is simply just another problem of sociological issues we will have to overcome should it arise."
It would be well actually for the economy to collapse fewer people would die then ecological collapse.
" I dont consider it to be on the cards with economic resistance and management in place from the people who run things and want to keep the system in continuation."
hmmm...
"And anyway if Earth decides to shake us off and wipe us out, would it be such a bad thing for the planet ?"
Over all, no, from a truly macro perspective giving Earth another chance to evolve better life forms isn't actually that bad of a deal.
"Earth would still turn and it would heal pretty damn quick without us on it."
About ten thousand years and she will re-sequester the carbon in ice, then it will return back to about like we have now.
prometheuspan said this on June 16, 2010 at 11:55 pm | Reply

And 10,000 years is the blink of an eye in geological standards.
I am still dubious as to the conditions that will arise due to global warming, but time will tell.
While I do agree with your point that an economic collapse is far kinder than a total environmental collapse.
But still I prefer to reserve judgement and stay clear of doomsday prophecising out of sensibility and not really knowing the future even from data collecting and EDWin type simulated runs.
Anyway we are really off track here ! :D
anticultist said this on June 17, 2010 at 12:04 am | Reply

"TVP/TZM has nothing at all for real problem solving process.
I on the other hand have easily ten times more answers than they do and actual problem solving process and transition plan that could work."-------------
Are you accepting monetary donations?
Jason W. said this on June 17, 2010 at 12:33 am | Reply

"People in the future will look back at the Zeitgeist Movement now and gawk how primitive and immature it was."
- Former Moderator
BranManFloMore said this on June 17, 2010 at 12:42 am | Reply

If these things are way off about religion, can you point me to something that is more truthful? I am understanding more where you are coming from after reading a lot of these posts. I would like to see some other worthwhile material to view though.
Jason W. said this on June 17, 2010 at 12:43 am | Reply

Hi Jason have you read the conspiracy science blog about the zeitgeist movies ?
Its quite lengthy but addresses some of the finer points they bring up.
http://conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/
you can check each section on the left
anticultist said this on June 17, 2010 at 1:00 am | Reply

"Are you accepting monetary donations?"
Not yet. But I am certainly willing to start..lol
"If these things are way off about religion, can you point me to something that is more truthful? "
Sure. Yeshua ben yeoseph was mixed with dionYSIUS, not Horus, and not PJs list of gods. YSIUS became JSIUS became "Jesus".
The myths ended up with bits from solar deities and the myths are accidentally solar for carrying things over, but nobody thought of
"Jesus" as a solar deity- they were well away from that.
Two examples. PJs presentation was right in the general gist of it and off by a wide margin for actual details.
The question of a historical "Jesus" is long settled. There never was one. There was absolutely a historical Yeshua on whom the myths are based.
Which on the other hand means that there was a historical person.
Its just that the NAME we use is nothing but a discombobulated roman myth.
We could go on and on, but it makes little difference.
And thats a conversation if its to be had at all for another time and place. Preferably RBEFs new religions section.
I am understanding more where you are coming from after reading a lot of these posts. I would like to see some other worthwhile material to view though.
prometheuspan said this on June 17, 2010 at 4:13 am | Reply

Peter never cited 1974 as the date of origin for the previously mentioned quote by Albert Einstein, Albert Einstein was not alive during the 70′s, originally 1954. Curious how people will make facts appear real and than argue as if they have some basis on reality.
Ben said this on August 3, 2010 at 6:08 pm | Reply

You are lying, we have screengrabs of Peter having that as his date, and yeah we were the ones pointing out Albert was dead and his quote was wrong if you look above retard.
anticultist said this on August 3, 2010 at 9:20 pm | Reply

[...] Peter Joseph Merola misquoting as usual [...]
Zeitgeist Blogs: Zeitgeist is a Mind Heist « Zeitgeist Movement Exposed said this on November 10, 2010 at 9:11 pm | Reply

[...] Peter Joseph Merola misquoting as usual [...]
Zeitgeist Blogs: Zeitgeist is a Mind Heist « Zeitgeist Movement Exposed said this on November 10, 2010 at 9:12 pm | Reply

[...] For further reading on "Zeitgeist" and the Albert Pike quote: http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/05/07/peter-merola-misquoting-as-usual/ [...]
Zeitgeist Motto: Albert Pike « Zeitgeist Movement Exposed said this on January 19, 2011 at 5:48 am | Reply

[...] This is a valid quote as well, so far, no screw ups like previously. [...]
Zeitgeist: Moving Forward [Review] « The Zeitgeist Movement Examined said this on January 24, 2011 at 10:34 am | Reply

Click to get back to topic starter

Click to get back to topic starter

So you don't think TVP and TZM are a cult June.6.2010 40 58

http://web.archive.org/web/20110831122046/http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/06/06/so-you-dont-think-tvp-and-tzm-are-a-cult/

I have been reading and referencing Dr Robert J Lifton since I first started my blog, it is him I can thank for everything I learned about cults [dangerous/personality & financial].
His points on thought reform are what actually got me to totally re evaluate the venus project and its activist arm. I used this in my first ever blog and used it as justification as to why I had taken the name anticultist and why I was under the suspicion that TZM was and is becoming more and more cultish.

So to my amazement and happiness anonymous have used Dr Lifton in a recent set of videos they have made. I think those of you who doubt the similarities or question if it is a cult should watch them and consider the points.
While you may not agree I think you can at least acknowledge there are certainly a lot of similarities.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/mfcPlHYH7wg

http://www.youtube.com/embed/q5cROQbbmns

http://www.youtube.com/embed/VUU0ixtuivg


Here are Liftons thought reform points in total to read:

DR. ROBERT J. LIFTON'S CRITERIA FOR THOUGHT REFORM

THOUGHT REFORM: THE PSYCHOLOGY OF TOTALISM CHAPTER 22 (Chapel Hill, 1989) THE FUTURE OF IMMORTALITY CHAPTER 15 (New York 1987)

Any ideology -- that is, any set of emotionally-charged convictions about men and his relationship to the natural or supernatural world -- may be carried by its adherents in a totalistic direction. But this is most likely to occur with those ideologies which are most sweeping in their content and most ambitious or messianic in their claim, whether a religious or political organization. And where totalism exists, a religion, or a political movement becomes little more than an exclusive cult.

Here you will find a set of criteria, eight psychological themes against which any environment may be judged. In combination, they create an atmosphere which may temporarily energize or exhilarate, but which at the same time pose the gravest of human threats.

(BRIEF OUTLINE)

1. MILIEU CONTROL

the most basic feature is the control of human communication withinand environment if the control is extremely intense, it becomesinternalized control -- an attempt to manage an individual's inner communication control over all a person sees, hears, reads, writes(information control) creates conflicts in respect to individual autonomy groups express this in several ways: Group process, isolation from
other people, psychological pressure, geographical distance or unavailable transportation, sometimes physical pressure often a sequence of events, such as seminars, lectures, group encounters, which become increasingly intense and increasingly isolated, making it extremely difficult- both physically and psychologically-for one to leave. sets up a sense of antagonism with the outside world; it's us against them
closely connected to the process of individual change (of personality)

2. MYSTICAL MANIPULATION (Planned spontaneity)

extensive personal manipulationseeks to promote specific patterns of behavior and emotion in such
a way that it appears to have arisen spontaneously from within theenvironment, while it actually has been orchestrated totalist leaders claim to be agents chosen by God, history, or some supernatural force, to carry out the mystical imperative the "principles" (God-centered or otherwise) can be put forcibly and claimed exclusively, so that the cult and its beliefs become the only true path to salvation (or enlightenment) the individual then develops the psychology of the pawn, and participates actively in the manipulation of others the leader who becomes the center of the mystical manipulation (or the person in whose name it is done) can be sometimes more real than an abstract god and therefore attractive to cult members legitimizes the deception used to recruit new members and/or raise funds, and the deception used on the "outside world"

3. THE DEMAND FOR PURITY

the world becomes sharply divided into the pure and the impure, the absolutely good (the group/ideology) and the absolutely evil (everything outside the group) one must continually change or conform to the group "norm" tendencies towards guilt and shame are used as emotional levers for
the group's controlling and manipulative influences once a person has experienced the totalist polarization of good/evil (black/white thinking), he has great difficulty in regaining a more balanced inner sensitivity to the complexities of human morality the radical separation of pure/impure is both within the environment (the group) and the individual ties in with the process of confession -- one must confess when one is not conforming

4. CONFESSION

cultic confession is carried beyond its ordinary religious, legal and therapeutic expressions to the point of becoming a cult in itself sessions in which one confesses to one's sin are accompanied by patterns of criticism and self-criticism, generally transpiring within small groups with an active and dynamic thrust toward personal change is an act of symbolic self-surrender makes it virtually impossible to attain a reasonable balance between worth and humility a young person confessing to various sins of pre-cultic existence can both believe in those sins and be covering over other ideas and feelings that s/he is either unaware of or reluctant to discuss often a person will confess to lesser sins while holding on to other secrets (often criticisms/questions/doubts about the group/leaders that may cause them not to advance to a leadership position) "the more I accuse myself, the more I have a right to judge you"

5. SACRED SCIENCE

the totalist milieu maintains an aura of sacredness around its basic doctrine or ideology, holding it as an ultimate moral vision for the ordering of human existence questioning or criticizing those basic assumptions is prohibited a reverence is demanded for the ideology/doctrine, the originators of the ideology/doctrine, the present bearers of the ideology/doctrine offers considerable security to young people because it greatly simplifies the world and answers a contemporary need to combine a sacred set of dogmatic principles with a claim to a science embodying the truth about human behavior and human psychology

6. LOADING THE LANGUAGE

the language of the totalist environment is characterized by the thought-terminating cliche (thought-stoppers) repetitiously centered on all-encompassing jargon "the language of non-thought" words are given new meanings -- the outside world does not use the words or phrases in the same way -- it becomes a "group" word or phrase

7. DOCTRINE OVER PERSON

every issue in one's life can be reduced to a single set of principles that have an inner coherence to the point that one can claim the experience of truth and feel it the pattern of doctrine over person occurs when there is a conflict between what one feels oneself experiencing and what the doctrine or ideology says one should experience if one questions the beliefs of the group or the leaders of the group, one is made to feel that there is something inherently wrong with them to even question -- it is always "turned around" on them and the questioner/criticizer is questioned rather than the questions answered directly the underlying assumption is that doctrine/ideology is ultimately more valid, true and real than any aspect of actual human character or human experience and one must subject one's experience to that "truth" the experience of contradiction can be immediately associated with guilt one is made to feel that doubts are reflections of one's own evil when doubt arises, conflicts become intense

8. DISPENSING OF EXISTENCE

since the group has an absolute or totalist vision of truth, those who are not in the group are bound up in evil, are not enlightened, are not saved, and do not have the right to exist "being verses nothingness" impediments to legitimate being must be pushed away or destroyed one outside the group may always receive their right of existence by joining the group fear manipulation -- if one leaves this group, one leaves God or loses their transformation, for something bad will happen to them the group is the "elite", outsiders are "of the world", "evil", "unenlightened", etc.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Anticultist blog comments

I have to admit, I have watched a lot of videos from Anonymous lately and I can't just simply ignore all this now. I'm actually alarmed by this all. Yes, alarmed. Not to put anyone in a panic, but this is troublesome.
1. They still have a moderator (Thunder) that made a threat to someone over the phone but they claim to be a non-violent movement.
2. Claim there is no "they" but have made many foes and Peter Joseph says "they" when referring to them by not name most of the time which makes him look crazy.
3. Peter Joseph does have that quote from that Albert guy saying this: "What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal." But then he claims he's not a leader or doesn't want to be one but acts like it with these type of quotes. Notice the word "immortal".
If people can't see the connections here, then I don't know what else to say. All we can do is keep talking about this and call this social therapy.
And this guy is a real doctor too, so yeah...
1. MILIEU CONTROL: This has DarkDancer all over it. You can look at the CHAPTER fall outs, for an example with the AZ Chapter how everyone was against Xenophon and was promoting RBOSE. I still want to see those RBOSE fliers. Any ways, he was a threat to their eyes for mentioning any type of alternatives. Then DarkDancer came in RBOSE one day to IRC and said I could chat with the Florida Chapter again, sounds like a set up, right?
2. MYSTICAL MANIPULATION: Sounds like love-bombing to me. That's how the newcomers are kept and then they return back to the authority/bully type folks therefore making the member(s) feel confused about the organization they are in. I was. They may not be agents of God, but they certainly act like disciples.
3. THE DEMAND FOR PURITY: They may not classify people as good and evil, but they certainly do a good job demonizing people and dissent, then try to come off pure themselves which is funny because the way they run is quite dirty. And yes, they throw guilt trips at each other for even recognizing how bad they operate. Then they are threatened to be banned therefore making them not feel worthy of being a TZM member.
4. CONFESSION: Instead of sins, this could be ex-members talking about the manipulative tactics that were used to ban people that they were too intimidated to confront moderators (those up top) about at the moment when things were getting corrupt.
5. SACRED SCIENCE: What's funny about this is that I think the members there know more about the so-called doctrine then the moderators or the people that work behind the scenes. This would explain all the infighting that takes place. And yeah, I think the young people are more easily manipulated in any group therefore making older folks more likely to use their age against them. Young moderators easily obey Tanktop.
6. LOADING THE LANGUAGE: I found their language quite loaded myself when I watch all the empty rhetoric videos from Anonymous. So funny and so true. Yes, there is thought-policing there for sure.
7. DOCTRINE OVER PERSON: Yes, conversations about authority alone are shut down quickly and people are shoved with messages like "listen to V-RADIO about this" when no one should painfully listen to a hypocrite. Not even read a word from him. There is a lot of guilt-inducing because of challenging the lack of professionalism for sure.
8. DISPENSING OF EXISTENCE: Yes, guilt trips are given for wanting to leave but then many folks say that they are not forced to stay when they enforce by making the person feel bad for not taking the Zeitgeist Movement seriously.
This is truly 101 psychology. I think the word "cult" is strong, but they definitely act cultish.
Great blog. I too recommend people look in Dr. Lifton.
I want to see how they respond to this.
BranManFloMore said this on June 7, 2010 at 1:13 am | Reply

branmanflore and all of you folks that agree with this blog are mentally ill. That's the last you'll hear from me. Fucking psychos...
john bale - pretending to be anti anticultist said this on June 7, 2010 at 11:53 am | Reply

haha check this above nob head out..he's been trying to post here for weeks and either gets denied because hes a psychotic cult defender or just gets ignored because I think it is funny pissing him off.
But check this out, I provide evidence of him being in a cult via those anonymous videos and my original Lifton research and then he calls US mentally ill and psychos !! hahahahaha I can't stop laughing at the denial and stupidity of this clown.
Seriously this cults members know no bounds of intellectual stupidity and dishonesty.
You know what ?
I hope you do never post here again you Croatian retard.
anticultist said this on June 7, 2010 at 7:27 pm | Reply

Dude you are as much retarded to post any video by the
con-anonymous. There is no credibility or validity in any of his video's. By being against the movement and calling it a cult you have failed to understand everything the movement stands for and proposes. You need to re-evaluate all the materials and question whether such a direction is not only possible but a requirement if we wish to survive as an advance civilization. Please don't just discard this as me being the one who is lost and doesn't understand, i am very-self conscious and question every part of myself and the information i encounter. Oh and don't come at me with you're ex-zm member bullshit, it only takes one error in ones programming for it to turn the program completely around on trigger(Programming: The way you're brain interpreted and stored the information based on you're previous views and information, Program: an instance of the YOU or a set of beliefs/views).
What was the trigger?
anit-con-anti-cultist said this on October 4, 2010 at 9:17 pm

Cult member above prepared to overlook the obvious conspiracy theories and lies in the movies and the movements inabliity to do anything in the now thats of any benefit to humanity.
Also unwilling to overlook the fact everything jacque says is being done by other people and groups and has been put forward by many other thinkiers and authors before him, nothing new to see in the venus project, nothing going to be done with it either, move on.
anticultist said this on October 5, 2010 at 2:30 pm

The basic characteristics of a cult are fairly simple and well established. TVP/TZM is in fact and absolutely so by any objective perusal of such checklists.
In fact they borrow heavily from Armageddon theology and might be simply classed as an Armageddon Cult for Atheists.
Here is a list of links for more information on cult checklists. You will find that there are several different lists and that TVP/TZM is obviously a cult no matter which checklist is used.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_checklist
http://www.workingpsychology.com/cult.html
http://www.skeptictank.org/hs/cultdyn.htm
http://dictionary.sensagent.com/cult+checklist/en-en/
Also, heres information on Armageddon Theology
http://www.countercurrents.org/us-michael300106.htm
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1C1SKPC_enUS336US364&q=Armageddon+Theology&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
TVP/TZM is in fact transparently a cult, by every and any definition, and as such is not much different than Fundamentalist Zionist Whackjob Militant Christians/Jews.
Switching over to Atheism is a clever way to hide, but the main points of TVP/ TZM sociology/psychohistory attempts all amount to Armageddon theology for (duped) Atheists.
prometheuspan said this on June 7, 2010 at 3:13 pm | Reply

Thanks for the links ProMeTheUsPan.
Uh oh, this blog is under their radar:
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=231&id=265624
BranManFloMore said this on June 9, 2010 at 5:11 am | Reply

Ya'll must be some of the most closed minded people on earth, you have no idea what the Venus project represents nor a clue as to what The Zeitgeist Moment is about, please refrain from speaking on behalf of what you do not know you sound ignorant.
Drew said this on June 7, 2010 at 11:26 pm | Reply

I guess you don't realise you are talking to an ex long standing moderator of the zeitgeist movement and another long standing member of over a year.
I guess what we can conclude here is you have not read the blog, have no idea who posts on the blog and also have less idea about the movement than we do.
What a pity you were doing so well right up until after 'Y'all must be some of the most'.
anticultist said this on June 8, 2010 at 12:01 am | Reply

just one last thing to say..."you croatian retard", just showed me why you don't agree with TZM and TVP, because you're a chauvinist..god bless america eh Paul? Ofcourse that it's going to be hard for a nationalist like Paul Jones (anticultist) to support the venus project which wants to unite all the people in the world regardless of nationality... but then Paul would loose his flag and his identity and couldn't insult me of my ethnicity...I'm sure there are tons of people visiting your blog (99 % don't support your statements btw) and when they see your racist comment made against my ethinicity, they will disregard you in the future as a chauvinist you are...
Dude how can't you seem to understand that all you do here is trivial, as the Movement grows, your cultish blog will be forgotten and you will just stay a highschool drop out that never attended college and works as a DJ, pathetic...you like to speak about credentialism, where is your credentialism, mr disc jockey? you fail, as well as this blog..now I suggest you delete your nasty insult or it's gonna hit you back in the head, believe it...
deleted the rest of his...RANT RANT RANT :-)
Anticultist says:
I guess you are not going away and lied in your last post then eh. Typical zeitgeister full of false promises.
By the way I have a post graduate education, with science & art qualifications, I have letters after my name, I am not unemployed and I do not live in the USA. It seems like you could not of been farther from the truth if you had lied, oh wait up thats what you actually did.
Meanwhile:
You do live in Croatia and you are a retard, therefore my statement stands as is and your inference of rascism is a silly attempt to divert any silly blame on me. You are a violent vicious individual and I have everyone of your posts saved in this blogs settings and they're all just you ranting and name calling. So don't act all holier than though you dumb shitbag.
Fact is you are in a cult my boy and you can't handle people saying it
So go and cry in the corner and don't come back till you can apologise to us cultie . This is your last post, because I am never allowing you to be seen or heard from again here.
At least I can keep your word for you.
john bale pretending to be anti anticultist said this on June 7, 2010 at 11:29 pm | Reply

This blog is Cult-alike. I suggest your apply those principals to yourself. You having a Science degree, what a joke.
Your Mom said this on June 8, 2010 at 6:27 am | Reply

Trying to point fingers at this blog because we just showed you the reality you are in a cult does not change the fact you are in a cult. If it makes you feel better blaming this blog and hating on us fine, but non the less the attributes of the cult stick with the zeitgeist movement.
Backlashes like yours are inevitable, and yours was very weak. You only switched blame of the evidence to us, really amateur of you actually.
anticultist said this on June 8, 2010 at 6:46 am | Reply

Zm movement member here - The only thing I think is money is cancer. I think anything connected to money acts like cancer.
What is normal when anything that is connected to money acts like cancer?
zm movement member said this on June 9, 2010 at 3:59 am | Reply

Money isnt the problem get your shit together. People acting greedy are the problem.
anticultist said this on June 9, 2010 at 3:15 pm | Reply

No get you're shit together, the society is what makes people greedy. I wonder what is society based on...MONEY!
anit-con-anti-cultist said this on October 4, 2010 at 9:46 pm

If you say so, then hows about you quit using money and piss off to the jungle and dont post here again using technology you have paid for. ?
anticultist said this on October 5, 2010 at 2:32 pm

What's funny is the use of the word cult, when many adocates have not actually physically met in person; they are joined via the realization of social problems. Many are just intelligent people sharing and communicating what will eventually be inevitable, a world without money, whether the human race lives to see it is up to us.
The monetary system is on a suicide mission. It has shown it's innate orientation towards monopoly and we are seeing the negative effects of a global cabal of financial institutions guised as socially relevant. When you own car manufacturing facilities, their repair and an oil company; what do you think is going to happen? Obviously the continence of oil dependency and cars made to necessitate repair. What do we have? Exactly that. There is profit in all negative aspects to human existence if you own enough institutions and thats exactly what we have today.
In fact the quantity of humans is at a level threating profit due to the potential loss of control of those within the parameters of monetary delusion. Nuclear war here we come, keep those numbers under control! I'm sorry when insanity is the norm you must realize that all others who might oppose it might appear "strange". Don't worry the adaptive nature of conscious existence will wipe your deluded mindset right out, as 'survival of the fittest' takes place; where all the supposed "conspiracy theorists" will be out of harms way before any other.
eden said this on June 9, 2010 at 5:52 am | Reply

Quit with your CT shit I am not interested in your paranoid fantasies that the elite wanna take over the world and make you slaves with no money and ruin their profit incentives.
You guys are just CTs with a fancy dream of a futuristic world, and claims of being the only saviour to society. You are more like a cult than you can admit.
The only difference between you and the Alex Jones crowd is
A: You are more articulate
B: You have a set of pictures you want the world to look like somewhere in the distanmt future
C: You are more antagonistic than the Alex Jones crew when things talk about you online. You hunt them down and argue on behalf of your cult.
haha you are going to be safe from nuclear war ? hahaha man you are such a cultie...jim jones and other cult leaders tried to move their group into places where they would be 'safe'. In fact end of world armageddonsists and christians believe the same crap.
Building a Noahs ark to save the world from disaster are you?
If the world comes down and all thats left is zeitgeisters, then this species is fucked.
anticultist said this on June 9, 2010 at 3:19 pm | Reply

You do realize the utter irony in calling someone a conspiracy theorist, right?
Suggesting that the Zeitgeist Movement is a cult is a conspiracy theory, therefore you are also a conspiracy theorist.
illuminate.the.excessive said this on June 16, 2010 at 1:36 pm

Not when you provide evidence and comparitive analysis and points. Thats what is called being logical, critical and using a scientific theory and statement to back up the claim.
A conspiracy theory would have no solid evidence and would be a flimsy conicidental or erroneous claim. It seems you dont even know what a conspiracy theory is either, let alone what a cult is. If you want to learn more about conspiracy theories go to the links on the right of this blog, there are recomended articles presented by muertos that will educate you on them.
anticultist said this on June 16, 2010 at 1:41 pm

You certainly haven't convinced me with your blog, that your statements are logical, critical and use "scientific theory."
What exactly are your credentials, sir?
I very much know what a conspiracy theory is, and just like any other theory, deserves scrutiny. Your theories, upon intense scrutiny and analysis don't hold up, so I won't hesitate to label you a conspiracy theorist.
illuminate.the.excessive said this on June 16, 2010 at 10:19 pm

Thats usually what Conspiracy Theorists do, they join a movement and then start pointing fingers at those who disagree with their claims.
Calling me a CT serves no purpose since I dont support NWO theories, I dont support 911 inside job garbage, I dont support any of that fringe theory crap.
So in essence what you are trying to say is you dissagree with me but are trying to label me in hope that it might stick, but really it cant stick because there is no evidence of any conspiracy theory presented here, if in fact the opposite we disagree entirely with them.
So what remains of your reply is this:
You disagree with the blog.
Well thats your prerogative and indeed your own right to do so, but don't blame me when the rest of the world starts calling you all out on your flaws and beliefs and labels you cranks and Conspiracy theorists. When you have people believing controlled demolitions and all other weird cranky stuff leading, promoting and representing your movement it is inevitable. The science questions should really be asked of you not me, since you all make the huge world saving claims with no scientific backing or evidence. And then consider the lack of peer process involved in your cult, you disallow critical reviews and have the nerve to label them conspiracy theorists?
You have to be joking !!
anticultist said this on June 16, 2010 at 10:57 pm

Even if the Zeitgeist Movement and the Venus Project were cults (which they are not obviously), would it really matter? The goal is to create a better planet and increase everyone's standard of living, including yours my friend.
A person said this on June 9, 2010 at 8:17 am | Reply

hahahaha
would it really matter !
Fuck me thats a legendary thing to say.
anticultist said this on June 9, 2010 at 3:14 pm | Reply

Wow, the people on this page really make me wonder. o.o; You guys do realize that you're attaching yourself to every tiny, detectable instances of marginally questionable behavior of our forum moderators, merely our FORUM MODERATORS, in an attempt to twist the movement into something it isn't? You guys do realize that the forum is not the movement. The international website is not the movement. The forum's moderators CERTAINLY are not the movement. If you want to villainze the movement, get off of the forums and onto its members. You know, the people who execute our activsm. Tell me what THEY are doing wrong.
As for the whole cult thing, that's a loaded term that's open to interpretation. One could make the Boy Scouts look cultish with a little effort like this. What I want to know is what the movement is doing that is considered destructive? We influence public opinion via debate and the sharing of personal views, but what is our destructive agenda of which you are so terrified.
Tanoro said this on June 9, 2010 at 1:30 pm | Reply

Your moderators are authoritarian wankers.
They are even trying to hide behind an anonymous cloak now so noone outside or inside the movement can know which admin made a decision or did something on the forum.
The forum moderators are not the movement ?
OH my bad for some stupid reason I thought they were representing it, fuck off with your dumb lame excuses. Damn right they represent the movement and are the movement.
The forum is not the movement? hahaha jesus f christ this gets more stupid as the clock ticks.
You even try to say the movies are not the movement. You people are just a bunch of idiots.
Forget your loaded term, a cult has definitions and characteristics, and your cult has them. You are focusing on the word destructive, when in fact not all cults are destructive and can be profit driven or politically motivated for example which makes them dangerous or even fraudulent. Try understanding cults and the videos a little more.
The zeitgiest cult members never cease to amaze me how much they will defend it and its corrupt leadership.
And by the way this post I put here, is from anonymous youtube channel not mine, so take your shit up with them if you dont like their videos.
anticultist said this on June 9, 2010 at 3:24 pm | Reply

Excellent blog, I'm in full agreement and backing of this blog. I'm finding when you make a emotional logical impact such as this blog anticultist the more people lash out, the more they attack.
To be in the Zeitgeist movement and Venus project which is one of the most wasteful things you could possibly do is to be completely indoctrinated in the idea that what you are learning is actually going to have any impact towards this world and actually has some type of relevance to anything. So when Anticultist gets comments from cult members from the Zeitgeist movement and Venus Project that try to debunk the aspects he talks about; it becomes quite clear to me that the reason they have such an objection is really a emotional one. It isn't a objective aspect, they have culminated a identity to themselves because of their belief system, and for Anticultist to take that away from them to debunk their ideas of Zeitgeist movement and Venus Project is to take away their identity.
In the end the Zeitgeist movement and Venus Project are a cult without a doubt.
Billll said this on June 9, 2010 at 3:27 pm | Reply

Oh man... Billll, I like how you mimic'd one of Peter Joseph's lecture there. So true and funny. That had me rolling.
BranManFloMore said this on June 9, 2010 at 5:52 pm | Reply

Yeah the whole point made is cool as well because Peter loves to act the all knowing and wise leader who can utilise wordsmithery to create an air of righteousness.
Well Billll just threw it right back at him rather nicely.
anticultist said this on June 9, 2010 at 6:44 pm

Billl I think that this post has definitely hit a nerve. Not only does it have specific definitions of what a cult is and how they can be compared against their movement. It also has nice videos provided by the anonymous lot to appeal to the short attention span of the masses.
This is pretty much the thing that bothers them so, they hate being called out and they will try and use any excuse they can to defend their cult.
Some given above like: this is not the movement, we will be safe, the world is going to end, we use science, a cult definition is vague, you are a cult not us, we want to save everyone even you etc..
They are all just rhetoric and CT stuff with no substance at all.
They have provided no evidence contrary to Dr Liftons specific details, and quite honestly I think they can not.
So they attempt to lay blame and use semantic generalisations to limit the damage.
I find it hilarious that they are all so blinkered to the facts of the cult terms and have no ability to assess it correctly.
They even think we dont understand their movement and proceed to brain wash/educate us in their goals and standards. hahaha
Man these people are truly deluded.
anticultist said this on June 9, 2010 at 3:57 pm | Reply

LOL
http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=60&id=263279&limit=10&limitstart=10#264158
The dip shits over at TZM have decided to be anonymous administration :S
How silly can they be ?
They are basically hiding their identities so noone can pull them up on their claims, behaviour and actions.
Talk about no accountability.
hahahaha, wow just when I thought this cult could get no stupider it goes and exceeds my expectations.
anticultist said this on June 9, 2010 at 7:38 pm | Reply

In communist Russia they had the KGB that would take people out that disagreed with them. The Zeitgeist hierarchical structure has the anonymous moderators that will take people/post out that disagree with them... Now it's just that much harder to complain about a moderator on a forum when they have no name, because they are in fact cowards... When you have a hierarchical structure such as the zeitgeist movement you need to know everything from the concepts right down to the people; when you hide identities such as what Peter Merola did with his last name, or hide moderator status you are trying to hide things, attempting to make it harder for people to have an objective opinion, your distorting the fact to fit your agenda not the individuals needs. If they can't be true with their identities in TZM/TVP, imagine what will happen if this group is ever successful having a Venus Project.... I can't even... I'm happy with the current system as today compared to if we were to implement the Venus Project base on the actions I see from TZM/TVP...
Billll said this on June 9, 2010 at 7:50 pm | Reply

You posted and obviously promote videos from a group fame themselves on the label anonymous. Oh the ironic hypocrisy.
eden said this on June 10, 2010 at 6:43 am | Reply

Think about what i said instead of just opening your mouth and letting dumb words leave it.
anticultist said this on June 10, 2010 at 1:21 pm

I do not believe anonymous has a leader or a hierarchical? When you have such a hierarchical structure as TZm/TVP it's a different story entirely. When Peter Merola does not reveal his last name yet still calls the shots, when he asks people to change their view points in such a drastic way, knowing who is calling the "shots" should be a given not a comfort... This "Oh the ironic hypocrisy." is completely imaginary as anonymous was anonymous from the start, to my research anonymous has no leader, no structure, Zeitgeist/venus project does.
Billll said this on June 10, 2010 at 3:10 pm

http://deekjackson.com/?p=1156#comments

anticultist said this on June 11, 2010 at 10:11 pm | Reply

When I studied Systems theory and Sociology, on thing that really stuck for me was the basics of organizational management for businesses or business like entities.
As a teenager trying to break into the work force, my greatest early successes were those in which I was taken on as an- on the Cheap consultant in order to help fix medium sized companies with serious problems. The first question I learned to ask was "What do you have for processes and metaprocesses". Strangely they never knew what I was talking about.
A process or procedure or protocol is the steps that are taken in the labor process. Actions, things you do, tasks, which are done one after the other in sequential order.
Meta process then is the processes about the process. Dealing with internal conflicts. Preventing internal conflicts. Organizing workload. Assigning tasks and obtaining reports.
Making changes to the process, adding new processes, or working out kinks or problems in the process.
These two things are in many senses very simple but very easy to miss if you don't know them- Apparently. Too many companies don't know them, and get hamstrung over the problems that are then created.
The same thing amplifies a million times in a volunteer or open source or collaborative environment. Without clear process and meta process, a group as a whole will run in the different directions of the participants. Thats a process problem where each person has a different process in mind. This then mushrooms into conflict, and, without a lucid metaprocess, that then leads to people being fired, or leaving, orlosing motivational energy, or long drawn out arguments - usually not over the things that actually matter and usually without any relevance at all to solving problems.
People need to know how to participate before they usually can or will. the kind of person that just jumps in without clarity on such things is both very rare and also obviously has a whole lot more time to kill.
When an organization first starts, it doesn't have processes or metaprocesses. But if it doesn't immediately create them, then it is doomed to run in circles and get little done.
It is a fundamental assumption that most people make that such things are so simple and easy that they can just be winged, improvised, worked through on a case by case basis- crossing those bridges when you come to them.
The problem is that in reality a functional metaprocess for open source collaboration is in fact such a complicated and high order problem that nobody has yet accomplished it. Sure, Wikipedia has a millions of articles.
But they were hewn out of troll warfare and propaganda mind games, not a meaningful metaprocess.
Every modern social movements success or failure and degree of such can be traced to the question of metaprocess. As can the assorted corporate entities. By studying the question of process and metaprocess, the likely continued success or failure of a corporation can be determined a decade (or decades) ahead of the economic indicators. The best advice for investment strategy? Find a company that has a solid metaprocess, a company which deals in an adult manner with internal and external conflicts, a company which does not rely on rigged "mediation" to sucker people into hierarchy driven corporate fascism. Find a company with a soul; and soul enough to solve human problems using evolved human problem problem solving process, and that company obviously will succeed above other companies because it can solve problems that arise between people; Rather than just making the person into the problem, blaming victims, and then firing them.
Waiting to cross bridges until you come to them turns out to be an exercise in assuming that there will be a bridge, and arriving at a river too deep to cross on a plain with no trees to cut to make a bridge for hundreds of miles.
The organization in question then ends up trapped and camped out on the one side of said river, and can not ever usually manage to get to the other side.
This is beautfully and bizzarely true for the easy example of TVP/TZM. They have no metaprocess, they are a cult of personality in three tiers. The river that they couldn't cross was being adult and responsible about conflicts between the ego driven and evil Radio Blog folks such as "VTV" and "Thunder" and their assorted victims. Without a real metaprocess, they become nothing but casual liars, implementing useless measures feigning some sort of metaprocess and proving all the while gross incompetence. They can never be a social movement while in fact being anti social, and they can never move, because the river that they came to is as deep and wide as the invalidators egotism of the people in charge.
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=231&id=265624
"The Zeitgeist Movement is not religious. Its members do not get together to worship, pray, or take part in any faith-based activities or ceremonies. We are a social movement, advocating social change."
No, TZM is nothing but Armageddon theology repackaged for Atheists. It is not a social movement, its anti social and it can't move. They aren't advocating social change, they are advocating doing nothing until civilization self destructs, and they have the same fantasies about post armageddon edens and zions that the Zionists and Armageddon theologists do.
"The Zeitgeist Movement wishes to influence society with its views, but not be separated from it or antagonize it.
We do not separate ourselves from the public. We try hard to work with the public."
And in fact they create a very closed ethnocentrism circuit, which invalidates all other governments, all other religions, and all other social movements as inferior.
"We gather information from public sources and consult publically acknowledged experts regarding our advocations."
They can't manage to consult experts because no experts take them seriously enough to provide such consultations.
"Most of us have jobs, families, and live perfectly average lives. We support the Zeitgeist Movement because we believe society would benefit from it."
This is a >belief< system, obviously.
The movement does NOT advocate violence! In neither the Zeitgeist films nor our official propaganda does anyone in the movement ever advocate violent actions
Other than allowing civilization to come to ruin. They don't advocate violence, they just advocate doing nothing while violence goes on and in essence paying tickets in order to sell seats for the violence "Boo"
inverted cheerleading squad. In short, they end up being against all governments and all religions and they advocate inaction in the face of the very same problems that they decry. Its as good as selling tickets to a rape. They won't intervene, they won't interfere, no, they don't "advocate" violence, they are just making dough off of the incidental violence which they in essence promote via advertising.
We believe in rational and logical persuasion through interaction and public debate.
But are incapable of rational dialog and will ban you and lie about you if you even try to attempt debate.
There are no punishments or penalties of any kind for any reason aside from possible disclusion from further activity if your behavior proves destructive.
A transparent lie, as I was banned and lied about not for breaking any rules or being destructive, but for pointing out that VTV was both breaking rules and being destructive.
In other words, if you join our forums or attend an event acting like a jerk, you will probably be banned from further activities.
Or, if you join the forum and have knowledge that the pretending con artists and charlatans don't have, they will ban you for presenting an awkward contrast to their gross incompetence and ignorance.
Like any other group, we have our bad apples whose goal is to ruin the movement rather than help it.
Unlike most groups, those people are in charge.
Aside from these disclusions, we do not penalize anyone for any reason.
a transparent lie.
The Zeitgeist Movement has no leader.
Aside from Jaques, Peter Joseph, VTV, and Thunder, in that order of hierarchy.
Many people, some even in the movement, often mistakenly assume Peter Joseph or Jacque Fresco are the leaders of the movement. These men do nothing more than share their views for the asking.
More transparent lies.
While Peter is the movement's founder, he does not instruct members or guide their activities.
Except all over the board, on the forums, in their chat rooms, and everyplace else, where he does in fact exert authority and control.
Each sub-chapter in every city is responsible for organizing and executing their own activities with coordination from the national level chapters, but no formal instruction.
And thats supposed to be a good thing?
Jacque Fresco has almost no routine interaction with the movement at all, much less to instruct anyone. His role is that of a researcher and lecturer only.
Hes not a researcher, he makes paper models. If he was any kind of real researcher we wouldn't be having such messes.
Scrutiny is encouraged.
And all who offer real scrutiny are immediately diabolized and banned.
All members are heavily encouraged to scrutinize any information provided to them from any source, especially from within the movement.
A transparent lie.
We are firm supporters of the Scientific Method
But never employ it.
and do not take anyone's word without question. Skeptics ignore this fact entirely and believe the movement is composed exclusively of credulous individuals, but the truth is the exact opposite.
No, the truth is that its a charlatans scam. It could have been a beautiful thing, but instead of being open and transparent and employing a real metaprocess, they have admins who are trolls, who are invalidators, who are abusers, who are liars, who are fakes, and anyone who questions their authority is removed, banned, lied about, diabolized, and etc.
The point of this Digression being, that they don't have a metaprocess. What they have is assorted means to increase the power of the admins who are abusive to further abuse the public. The most recent example of this is that they are now making the moderators second accounts on the forum so that said moderators can hide behind a cloak of secrecy about their identity. Why?
How do they defend this? What is their reasoning for it? Quite simply, they are very abusive and evil people and this empowers them to continue these patterns of abuse without the public being able to tell whos doing what.
prometheuspan said this on June 11, 2010 at 10:31 pm | Reply

wow...im amazed the amount of energy and effort you put in to this when you could actually use it to make a some real change, You are aware of the problems we are facing, arn´t you? this site is nothing but a waist of valueble time.
Taongi said this on July 21, 2010 at 7:02 pm | Reply

Yeah well you deemed it important enough to comment here right?
If its such a waste of your valuable time why not get on with fixing the worlds problems and leave the rest of us to point out the fallacies of zeitgeist and the venus project.
I am not in the business of saving the world, I have never claimed to be nor will I ever do so.
anticultist said this on July 22, 2010 at 12:42 am | Reply

I just designed three buildings and talked RBEF out of replicating TZMs worst mistakes. All in all thats once again more that i have done in terms of real work and pragmatic right action than all of TZM combined in its entire life span.
prometheuspan said this on July 22, 2010 at 2:40 pm | Reply

And in under 36 hours.
prometheuspan said this on July 22, 2010 at 2:41 pm | Reply

Hey AC, ProMeTheUsPan created a forum to talk about cults of personality in the RBEF Forum:
http://www.rbefoundation.com/viewgroup.php?f=714
That should be fun.
LoL!
I think you should break the ice.
BranManFloMore said this on September 5, 2010 at 8:35 pm | Reply
i agree...
:)
prometheuspan said this on September 6, 2010 at 10:11 am | Reply

[...] So you don't think TVP and TZM are a cult [...]
Zeitgeist Blogs: Zeitgeist is a Mind Heist « Zeitgeist Movement Exposed said this on November 10, 2010 at 9:12 pm | Reply
The most recent example of this is that they are now making the moderators second accounts on the forum so that said moderators can hide behind a cloak of secrecy about their identity. Why?
A lack of transparently is lying. This never changes.
Dave said this on February 19, 2011 at 6:44 am | Reply

If they hide behind a cloack of secrecy, is probably because someone could assasinate them. I think some people want those moderators and admins dead, and they are afraid of being killed. In the end, it's either to improve the generation of resources in the world, or to let them all run out.
Ignacio Cortorreal said this on February 28, 2011 at 10:09 pm | Reply

LOL WTF ? !!!
Paranoid people make me laugh a lot.
anticultist said this on April 12, 2011 at 6:16 pm | Reply

I find it funny that a good majority of these posts are supporters of zeitgeist and the only person in a pathetic attempt to defend this absurd website is anticultist you clearly have very few supporter you moronic fool
Anticultist is a halfwit said this on April 26, 2011 at 5:08 pm | Reply

Thats because Zeitards are butthurt that their cult is being shown to be a catastrophic failure, and the only reason there are a lot of Zeitard posts here are because i allow them to humiliate themselves on my blog for posterity. Zeitards like you have a tendency to hit up any blog or website that shows your cult in a bad light because you think thats how you should act. If arguing with people online who disagree with your cult is the only thing you feel is going to change the world I pity you, newsflash: you are failing on all counts of your claims. You guys have achieved nothing other than looking complete douchebags to the rest of the world. Congratulations.
And if you think I am the only critic on this blog then you are not only blind, but are more than likely in denial and have not attempted to actually read anything here, catastrophic failure of an assessment once again. It is good to know zeitards are at least consistent in their failing.
Now what was that you were saying about being absurd ? fool
anticultist said this on April 26, 2011 at 5:16 pm | Reply

Click to get back to topic starter