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The Burger KingPosted: Jun 19, 2013 - 18:52
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I can't stop posting pictures of poop, what the fuck is wrong with me?

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All this has happened before March.21.2010 30 48

http://web.archive.org/web/20110815012022/http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/03/21/all-this-has-happened-before/

All this has happened before and is happening again By Shane Nolan


"The environmental move ment was basically hijacked by political and social activists,who came in and very cleverly learned how to use green rhetoric and green language to cloak agendas that had more to do with anti-corporatism,anti-globalisation, anti - business and very little to with science and ecology..and that is when I left" - Patrick Moore founder and former president of Greenpeace


After finally realising my life long dream to get into college I began writing little tidbits and ideas that had formed in my head over the past year of how my main interest in life, science could be used for the betterment of mankind. This at least more noble rather than for being bastardized for the corruptible ideologies of capitalism and communism throughout the cold war era and again when history repeated itself during the first decade of our current century with the politicization of this field allowing it to be essentially hijacked by both democrats and republicans globally first with the "sexed up" Iraq WMD documents and then the global warming debacle we had .So I did research and looked into new and emerging technologies that relieve the worlds ills from poverty,environmental degradation etc.

Unfortunately as I had just enrolled in a four-year college course and my work suffered to the point that it had to be abandoned altogether. So one idle weekend I was searching for videos on Richard Dawkins (by then I had become interested in the creationism/intelligent design and evolution debate and happened across a video called "The Truth about Religion" on you tube and was amazed at what a steaming pile of shit this was as I was laughing out loud It wasn't until an idle Saturday in February of 2009 that I watched the same video again to disprove it my self that I found out it was from an internet conspiracy movie called "Zeitgeist"(which I eventually watched in full...and laughed even more) and there was another more factual(I'm stretching the word here) sequel called Addendum.

So after watching Addendum I was enamoured by the Zeitgeist Movements goal and Jacques Fresco since I agreed(and still do) with on some,but not all of the views he had to present particularly on education.Addendum was a relief that at least someone got the concept out.Due to this passion for all the concepts of the movement I had long believed in I became one of those people who used every social networking site,similarly themed videos on you tube and even yahoo answers to defend and "spread the message" of the movie(Addendum only).I was treading that thin line between calm rationality and fanaticism preparing arguments in my head with the adrenaline coursing through my veins .I introduced the idea to my brother who had his own dreams of building his business(I didn't show him any of the "material" as even I laughed at all of the designs)and he just roared at me for about an hour about it being garbage and even when I told him of the RBE Foundation (which I had joined by then) who were actually serious about this he then laughed in front of my face and called all of us idiots.

By then I had become less fanatical but it finally hit me harder than a Pan Galactic gargleblaster that we've already been here before:

Lets run down the list:

1.Wideley released and award-winning movie waking people up to a major problem in the world...check

2.Use of the same debunked graphs and data and Powerpoint presentations....check

3.Capitalising on major social or environmental catastrophe...check

4.Prophesing social/environmental doom....check

5.Reuse of human/animal suffering to reiterate the point...check

6.Unquestioneable self appointed leaders with no qualifications on what they are talking about...check

7.Jet crossing all over the world on other peoples money from luxury standard home....check

8.Using said money to also fund "their research" ...check

9.Prophet figure utilising their own company as the only solution through selling products and means of solving the problem...check

10.Same automated emails and messages about being too busy with spreading the message to answer...check

11.Anti-capitalist, anti-corporate agendas....check

12.Hollywood movie about people looking back how "primitive" current society was...check

13.Saturate the market with new and innovative ways of "spreading the message"

14.Oscar win and Nobel peace prize from global awareness campaign ...I sure hope not

The truth that most "movementarians" as I like to references The Zeitgeist Movement and all those involved are pretty much spouting the same shit the environmentalist movement have been spouting since Rachel Carson decided to carry out mass genocide in Africa and Al Gore replaced Patrick Swayze as Captain Planet. In fact most of them are pretty much from the same camps(you can move sheep from flock to flock that doesn't make any less sheep) and wont even admit the fact that they are doing the same mistakes all over again.

This is why most people and media outlets wont listen to them because they've had the same shit pushed down their throats already and not because of their "conditioning" or they are "too into the system". The reality is that people have already been bitten and are hesitant to join or even consider a group that spouts the same notions of activism and some of these "activists" are guilty of this and even brainwashing people into their cult before they consider looking at anything critically [1].

Like most fields of study there are three types of people in the world of science: scientists who are experts in their field and adhere to the stringent protocols of the peer review process and have credentials ,then you have enthusiasts people who are not experts and have no credentials but where its more of a hobby and still are aware of and respect the processes involved ,and then of course there is the bullshitter people who know nothing about anything and show total disregard for the peer review processes, usually out for a buck.

The reality is that the Zeitgeist movies were made for a specific audience ,Jacque and Roxanne have succeeded on grasping the blissful ignorance of the masses with effective teaming with a fellow bullshitter (and a good one too). Unfortunately as usual genuine and well-meaning people are getting hooked into it and this is saddening and like before to see them defending the fanatic and cultish members simply by being there and taking part like any other fanatical activist groups makes it even more depressing. Essentially this hive mind is a mish-mash of creationist and extremist environmentalist ideological nonsense drowning out any progress and reason by making them feel guilty for having a life.

Former members and those working for the RBEF voiced serious concerns about transparency ,organisation and the actual research needed for this to be done repeatedly attempted to get them sorted out and bring them to the attention of the "three stooges" as I like to call them.Roxanne and Jacques cleverly skirted around these issues in every interview they have(sound familiar) [2] ,the RBEF sorted them out (with a fraction of the members and resources at their disposal I might add )and ended up being presented with the threat of legal action and were unable to officially do anything due to pending legalisation. This is contrary to the fact that Roxanne and Jacques even stated in interviews in which they would condone the implementation of an RBE by groups other than The Venus Project [3].

Which brings me to the final point,the truth is we don't need to go through all this crap.We don't need to keep coming up with new ways of spreading the message (because like the environmentalist movement the culture it mainly operates in it has already saturated the internet)or do that all anymore because we have research centres,we don't have to make any more movies or books because there is already a wealth of work about post-scarity societies from Star Trek TNG [4] and Voyager series (every episode available on YouTube for FREE),hints in Douglas Adams [5,6] work and dealt with by virtually every science fiction author from the 60s and 70s.Even I thought up of this without ever hearing about the Technocrats and Jacques or anything to do with The Venus Project which reiterates the point that trade marking is pointless. Furthermore we don't have to seek much outside donations as if every member were to donate $100(hardly breaking the bank here) they would have more than $30 million to give existing research centres enough to get new automated technologies etc a good start. This is more than enough to get things off the ground (or keep the "Feed Peter & Roxanne fund" going for very long time).More than likely Jacques figured once he left the Technocratic movement that the idea of a society similar to his "RBE" would eventually come about naturally enough as society and technology improved.After joining up with Roxanne and later Peter he would start all this little business with ensuing legal wrangling bullshit to capitalise on this and invent some nonsense that it was not his idea(along with a plethora of documentaries with people stroking his ego raw).Simply put you have three lump heads who have no clue, they are talking purely for the sake of being credited with something that is not their idea. They simply are more concerned now with their image and ego and preventing anything actually happening and damaging any real legitimate attempts to bring this about if the concept becomes mainstream.

They are wasting peoples time and money by going from city regurgitating the same nonsense and poorly researched materials and what they are doing is cruel and irresponsible by manipulating those not given the chance to develop their critical skills to boycott and protest( Protest what has managed to elude me) and begin to slide down the slippery slope into fanaticism that led to the current state of groups such as PETA , another group headed by self-appointed leaders and has gone to the extent of supporting and defending terrorism in the form of the ALF.

Jacques , Peter and Roxanne have this nonsense that this is somehow related to the civil rights movement(just like PETA) and are yet at the same time pissing on the graves of those who died to make genuine change(still giving people the impression that there is some big bogey man out to get us - the fact that people are still handing out the same shitty first movie strengthens this).The fact that these are same views shared by many of the remaining scientists left in that faux movement and they are not wanting to listen to any of these "dissenting views" clearly shows where they are going by removing the very people who are actually needed. Without stopping this nonsense mark my word it ends up the same as every other "movement" seen so far: Celebrities and politicians joining and donating just to improve their image but again not doing anything at all , complete saturation of the media and it coming up in practically every Disney and Pixar movie .

In order for the implantation of an RBE to be successful or the concept goes mainstream the following must occur:

1)They have to accept the fact that they were never elected into place.Its practically impossible for the entire "movement" to progress with them doing annual promotional work and making all the decisions(it's also unfair)

2)They have to hold back the advertising campaign completely,as stated earlier if every member donated a mere $100.00 we could get serious funding for existing research centres.Again people hate having rhetoric shoved down their throat without evidence.

3)Any of the proposed cities are not necessary for now at all and both the film and theme park are totally unnecessary

Jacque says never give anyone the right to their own opinion and isn't in any way exempt from this he should simply say "I don't know" instead of spouting the rubbish he does (since if people want to get the same information they just have to watch the same lectures, and what the hell does he know ?) the fact that he has no credentials or respect for the scientific and academic peer review process(along with the other two) means that they simply don't have the right to do what they are doing, and also why moderates and the majority of people in the world will easily see through them once given the chance(you can replace tyranny with another form of tyranny and called it democracy but it's still tyranny).The three of them preach about the fact that politicians and corporations would be the first in line to prevent this from coming to fruition but the fact is they are the only ones that are stifling progress. This is the real tragedy of it all: the very concept that they say could very well save humanity for the time being is getting dragged through mire for the sake of the ego's of three very irresponsible and selfish people. Same shit, different name


References:

1. http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=55303891744&topic=13177 - Look at my group that i posted in the first post in this forum, it deals with exactly the same issues as the zeitgeist yet that first impression is effective in aquiring people. They go in with a more open and curious mind...not a critical mind!

2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLCKmPxtFDM - unable to answer basic questions

3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9rLpHt3bL4 - part one of that particular interview where it is stated.Also unable to answer basic questions again and trying to look smart by talking in metaphorical science majiggy language they also made up.

4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzqW0YaN2ho - Examples of a resource based economy in star trek(mistaken for communism in this video).You can as said earlier watch any episode on YouTube

5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5ITvG938Cs - Episode 2 of Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy(to be honest most of the stuff coming out the three muppets mouth during the entirety of Z-Day 2010 is equivalent to everything from 3:30 on that video.

6. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOZWYDXaQLs - Episode 2 of Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.Another but less relevant reference in the series


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Anticultist blog comments


Thanks for the post Shane. It's good to have someone else around who can see it for what it is.
michi said this on March 22, 2010 at 1:48 am | Reply

Thanks for the post Shane.
An interesting and fun read, I am glad you bothered to make this for the blog its a good addition to the exisiting posts we have made here, and I think its also a relief to see that other people have observed the ridiculous nature of their movement.
anticultist said this on March 22, 2010 at 12:31 pm | Reply

Yeah thanks I know there is a few spelling/grammer mistakes here and there but i was in the middle of alot project work for college.For the same reason I was unable to to get to Z-Day and find any of the remaining less fanatical types and fellow scientists to at least give them the other side of the story(or at least directing their energies towards more constructive action).Jacque,Roxanne and Peter should be in Dublin during August for more of their Vogon poetry so I might be able to prevent any well meaning people making a mistake of funding these freeloaders.
Shane Nolan said this on March 23, 2010 at 7:08 pm | Reply

hahaha I chuckled at those hitch hikers clips, the poetry and the videoing themselves and making their own money out of leaves etc...
People seem to like this post, its been linked on the zeitgeist facebook as well, and all the 'dissenters' dig it.
anticultist said this on March 23, 2010 at 7:30 pm | Reply

Hey anticultist I see you've had your first run in with a zeitgeister from the Emerald Isle(Xtylish) courtesy of my flirtations on my native forum.For any one from there(or indeed any where else)just stumbling from there to this article excuse my langauge on this post above(and bad grammar) just keep in mind I was inbetween three major projects for college and so my adrenaline was constantly upped on the ante during writing it so.
Shane Nolan said this on April 28, 2010 at 10:54 pm | Reply

Ah hes a fellow Irish man, oh well I will give him some slack because he lives on the same island as you and Azzy, but just this once.
anticultist said this on April 28, 2010 at 10:58 pm | Reply

This is the real tragedy of it all: the very concept that they say could very well save humanity for the time being is getting dragged through mire for the sake of the ego's of three very irresponsible and selfish people. Same shit, different name
--------
yes, well, lets get to work then and make tvp obsolete the old fashioned way.
:)
prometheuspan said this on April 29, 2010 at 3:11 am | Reply

That quote from the former President of GreenPeace is quite revealing.
Hmmm...
Pretty much everything said here is what I'm thinking now.
Great read BTW, I had the same romanticism with them being equal to the Civil Rights Movement after watching Zeitgeist: Addendum and seeing the MLK quote on their website (which is not there anymore) which has been used before by other organizations:
http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=231&id=242914#242945
From Shane:
"Without stopping this nonsense mark my word it ends up the same as every other "movement" seen so far: Celebrities and politicians joining and donating just to improve their image but again not doing anything at all, complete saturation of the media and it coming up in practically every Disney and Pixar movie."
Politician: VTV (check)
Actress: TVPChallenge (check)
It's funny that you say that because I noticed that TVP chick works or worked for NBC and comes out of nowhere as pro-TVP. You just can't make this stuff up:
Sources:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm3281001
vimeo.com/user3047967
anewworldsociety.ning.com/profile/BrandyHume
twitter.com/TVPchallenge
http://www.proscoutblog.com/our-new-discoveries-here-and-there
http://www.facebook.com/TVPchallenge
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/v-radio/2010/03/16/the-venus-project-challenge-brandy-hume-interview
Then Peter Joseph makes this comment about if the Zeitgeist Movement was to be on NBC:
http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=9&id=250977#250993
From Peter Joseph:
"The films were an "inspiration" for TZM - not necessarily defining of it. I know it sounds like an absurd formality, but when one of us is on NBC and the reporter says 'so- your movement is based on those joseph films, right?' We say:
'No, the films were a inspiration- the Movement is its own entity.' "
And to add icing on the cake, I find it funny that there is or was a program on NBC called ZEITGEIST:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26852192
Forgive me, I'm off and on with TV personally.
I guess that goes back to the art of advertising:
http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/01/05/the-art-of-advertising-within-the-zeitgeist-movement
But I will admit, before Zeitgeist: Addendum, I wasn't aware of an RBE at all and didn't learn about people who talked about post-scarcity before, but looking at history and seeing where all this is coming from has become obvious and I understand the title of this blog. Reading this makes me want to go back to college.
Again, thanks for sharing Shane.
BranManFloMore said this on May 5, 2010 at 4:52 pm | Reply

to be perfectly blunt, nothing that TVP has to offer is anything more than at best the sum of Civil Engineering + Sociology + Energy Science applied to economics.
This isn't new, and its not revolutionary. They don't have one single good idea that ten other people didn't think of first.
The only difference is that they are willing to appropriate and lie more than the average movement and have no qualms about pretending to know things that they don't.
This brings us to the other side. While they repeat a lot of good ideas, they also repeat as many garbage ones, and Jaques for being a French guy seems to have stolen all of the main cultist axioms from Armageddon Theology.
There is nothing new about TVP, all they have done is bring a large collection of cutting edge ideas in to one place and then
make believe that they are the only ones to ever think of them.
Meanwhile, I actually do have original thoughts, and for this reason its important to ban me immediately.
prometheuspan said this on May 6, 2010 at 3:04 am | Reply

hello i totally agree with you for the most part. im also a zm member but im troubled with all the things they don't address. we should start our own movement shit, lol. no really though.
alicia said this on July 5, 2010 at 5:04 pm | Reply

Why not register to vote instead? You can actually make a difference that way.
NWO Agent said this on July 8, 2010 at 1:47 am | Reply

Yes try and get your local government to set up hydroponic farming on either a comunity/commercial scale or set up grants for people in your locale to set up their own means of becoming self sufficient with other technologies like I have been researching here:
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=390&t=1735&hilit=food+biochemistry
Shane Nolan said this on July 11, 2010 at 4:56 pm | Reply

It isn't hard to run for local office. There are tons of spots that are uncontested because there are never any opponents. That's how you bring about the sort of change you're wanting.
NWO Agent said this on July 12, 2010 at 4:26 pm

i don't know about starting a new movement, however, i am increasingly feeling like thats the only good way out of this.
I'd like to heal the assorted splinter groups together, but that seems unlikely.
I don't want to go egotist, but it increasingly seems the only way to get anything done.
And then I'd need people to do things i can't do like techie stuff.
This leads me back to RBEF, which is the most on the ball of the splinter groups.
It also brings up face to face to peer at the core problems and issues which none of these groups or any humans anywhere seem to be able to solve, which is generating a viable and lucid metaprocess.
I'm burned out. Way out. Way burned. Everything has been flipped around upside down.
In a sane world TZM would be using me to draft and I'd have the full attention and energy of hundreds of folks.
A more sane RBEF would actually read and respond to my posts rather than more or less allow me to operate as an internal splinter group.
Today I found that my website for the duration of the election- mytalktoday.com has been taken down- so much for all the fun i was going to have with i-told-you-sos in 2012.
Lately i find that my best friend is autocad. It doesn't argue with me or make demands that i figure out how to compensate for its insanity or stupidity or greed or fear. I draw, it looks good, i feel good. But nobody but me gets to really appreciate it.
Rambling on, I know, but how would we start a new group and make it work? from here?
prometheuspan said this on July 13, 2010 at 5:07 am | Reply

I know how you feel p man at this point As I said befor over at RBEF the one thing we could use is people from existing NPOs etc. to join our ranks .Not only do they know the ropes and how to get things organised they already have the commitment to doing the volunteer work needed without any excuses(ideal since the idea of an RBE would fit nicely into the their goals) and more importantly teach us a thing or two with regards to how to get things done.That was the problem with TVP/TZM and now RBEF,which is a shame now because now I actually have the lucidity and free time to get some work done in an area I might have some use in that isnt garbage - not great but not garbage either.To be honest p man with regards to starting up a new movement I really dont know if that would work.Ughh maybe Im just frustrated too or just rambling nonsensically on from a hard day working at college for the summer.
Shane Nolan said this on July 13, 2010 at 6:08 pm | Reply

You're nutty as a fruitcake.
NWO Agent said this on July 14, 2010 at 9:51 pm | Reply

Uggh.Im starting to realise something.Maybe working with like minded local governments as well as with NPOs/NGOs etc on a global scale really is the only solution .
"It isn't hard to run for local office. There are tons of spots that are uncontested because there are never any opponents. That's how you bring about the sort of change you're wanting."
Youre right.You are so very right.At this point it seems the only way possible.At least then you dont get caught up in the whole woo that TZM/TVP,RBOSE and then RBEF got caught up.Maybe this whole thing of changing the world for the better needs unsung heroes working in the background.Maybe we need to rethink our whole strategy here with regards to an RBE.Work closely with local governments and the other groups as I stated before informing them of our goals and research and implementing an RBE through them(in particular green tech).Perhaps thats the problem: groups that say they are going to change the world through a revolution usually end up dying out,fasding into obscurity and becoming the butt end of jokes and pop culture a victim of their own ego and desire for recognition.Perhaps the less mainstream society knows about this the better.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_revolution#Post_World_War_Two
An RBE is going to happen anyways perhaps its best we just work with research centres,thorough politics etc for a silent revolution.
"You're nutty as a fruitcake."
Perhaps I am or perhaps I just need some sleep.
Shane Nolan said this on July 17, 2010 at 10:53 pm | Reply

shane, i am holding out a hope that RBEF can pull it together.
Otherwise, I do have my own whole wiki and face book, and the more i think about it the more i can prolly do a lot more than I have so far.
This whole thing has put me face up against the whole problem in some new ways and this has got me to thinking in new directions,
and also i find myself letting go of the idea of trying to work within a group to start as much.
Increasingly, my own competence outweighs any other concern about such groups and I realize that as much as I would like to find a group worthy of my participation and on track- there isn't one.
And damnit. Humanity needs one. At least one. One honest to goodness not sheeplized, not evil, not doublethought, not stupid, not dumbledowned, not lazy, not distracted, not befuddled lucid problem solving progressive scientific organization for positive social evolution.
Its not that I want to be different or better than other such movements. I wish to god that there were movements i could join. But there aren't. One way or another they are all a waste of time and energy and that in and of itself is humanities number one tragedy. If real change is going to come, what quarter can it come from?
I realize more and more every day that i have a profound and unique responsibility. The question becomes how to pull that off,
without egotism, and how to hand it off to humanity considering that it would appear that being the start up dictator is more or less required.
If anybody has any leads on organizations i wouldn't have to sell my soul to or doublethink my way through believing could actually have an impact... I'm all ears.
Otherwise, its looking to me like it starts with me.
prometheuspan said this on July 19, 2010 at 3:47 pm | Reply

I see what you mean this whole new drama that is going on now at RBEF is disheartening.I agree trying to get people to do anything at all there is a hurdle to say the least(perhaps TZMs passifying techniques to prevent real action worked too good).The PreResearch section is a ghost town at this point even though it should be the one area that is bubbling with activity.I have a few ideas on getting new recruits over there by weeding out the dilligent from the woo seekers by scouring the net outside of TZM but alas there doesnt seem to be much point.If the basic structure of the whole group isnt going to set up by those with that responsibility then is there really any point for any of us to be there?
Anyways Ill try to implement those ideas see if they work and maybe get more of the Brainstorming done.However if the fates have written a different path then at least youll get a few more people to help you out if starting from scratch is the only option.
At this point I going to make some attempt to at least get my local government to set up some sort of a sustainable process for keeping my locale green.It might not be world changing but its a start.
Shane Nolan said this on July 21, 2010 at 9:36 pm | Reply

Well just checked out progress there...things seem to getting back on track.For a second there things were getting bleak
Shane Nolan said this on July 22, 2010 at 10:48 am | Reply

i seem to have broken through with cosar. a light finally went on.
it would be nice to see you there on the rights and responsibilities thread.
actually, you 2 anticultist, this is what it really comes down to all of it.
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=412&t=2355
TZM fails because they don't demand responsibilities from the admins and don't link rights to responsibilities.
RBEF was looking like it was going to go that same route until i broke thru with cosar. Now lets just try to get this to carry over to DM and Venux.
prometheuspan said this on July 22, 2010 at 2:38 pm | Reply

No thanks i am not interested in joining any group any longer. I am happy roaming about doing my own thing over here and participating in Conspracy Science threads.
Good luck over there doing what it is you all do, it is just not for me.
anticultist said this on July 22, 2010 at 3:10 pm | Reply

[...] All this has happened before [...]
Zeitgeist Blogs: Zeitgeist is a Mind Heist « Zeitgeist Movement Exposed said this on November 10, 2010 at 9:10 pm | Reply

[...] All this has happened before [...]
Zeitgeist Blogs: Zeitgeist is a Mind Heist « Zeitgeist Movement Exposed said this on November 10, 2010 at 9:12 pm | Reply





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#61 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
The Burger KingPosted: Jun 19, 2013 - 18:57
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I can't stop posting pictures of poop, what the fuck is wrong with me?

Level: 5
CS Original
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Love this Kid March.23.2010 31 49

http://web.archive.org/web/20110808005734/http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/03/23/love-this-kid/


So someone named jmpeer came on the forum and told Zeitgeist members whats what today. I found it amusing.

http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=231&id=240877


jmpeer: "I'm wondering where you get your information?
Where do you publish your sources?
I don't acknowledge things until they're indisputably proven,
and unfortunately, your sources, particularly with the debunking of
religion, are challenged quite a bit.
Little bits of evidence, testimonies, and reasoning aren't enough.
You have to make your case clear beyond all doubt.
Who orchestrates your media and site?
You need to touch em both up.
Your general organization and presentation aren't too effective,
as shiny and inspirational as you might thing it is,
you really do need to make them less doubtful, more organized, and less sketchy.
You need to actually prove your case and jump on it if it's worth anything.
Gettin shit across really isn't hard."


Well, you know the drill, they all rush in to argue the guy's point and nit pick his grammar, etc. Then an admin steps in:


Admin: "Obviously you have taken little time to review our materials. Very soon there will be a test to gain entrance into this forum for the sake of making sure these kinds of posts are at a minimum.
The Z Movies are merely inspirations for TZM. You have to actually review our materials to understand what we are doing.
Please review the following before posting more."
PDF Orientation:
www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/The%20Zeitgeist%20Move
video.google.com/videoplay?docid=393248704316363626
vimeo.com/78575
vimeo.com/79388
vimeo.com/63469
vimeo.com/78668
vimeo.com/7866864
www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/A-Designing...tureE-BOOK-
www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/inde...;id=28&Item [1]
"Until you do so, you really have no busniess being here."


Then jmpeer: You're very rude and naive, especially for an admin, to assume I haven't visited those materials before. What you've suggested is again irrelevant. I'm not talking about your pretty face. I'm talking about the little wart on the side of your pretty face. Perhaps you're good at reading the context of things since stating it directly didn't seem to phase you. Your failure to understand what I'm saying is a problem for you, not for my satisfaction.
Please reread my posts and try to understand what I have pointed out. And bear in mind your judgement isn't exactly best when it comes to evaluating yourself, so think as if you were not a member on Zeitgeist."


The little wart on the side of your pretty face. Haha. Just goes to show how Zeitgeist comes off as a bunch of wannabe intellectual space cadets to the very people they try to appeal to. So now they are going to administer a test for forum members? Initiation!

[1]These links posted to the Zeitgeist current propaganda videos and reading materials the admin want all members to research and are required to understand, I am assuming this is the kind of material that they will test potential members of the cult on, I have seen fit to remove advertising this here.

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Anticultist blog comments


That is pretty funny that guys got a smart way of saying things.
I am looking forward to taking notes on the zeitgeist IQ test.
anticultist said this on March 23, 2010 at 11:00 am | Reply

A test to get into the forums!!!! LOL
If such a test is based on knowledge I might come back just to be a pain in their ass.
Example "Hey everyone I'm back, I passed the test. That means I can talk shit about your plan and no one can say shit right?"
Stonegoal said this on March 23, 2010 at 3:36 pm | Reply

Damn, I haven't been active in the forum and to know the admin's attitude is something like this is totally unacceptable. What kind of people they are getting to moderate the forum anyway? Do all the mods have this attitude problem?
Zeitgeist Lah! said this on April 18, 2010 at 12:20 pm | Reply

Not all the mods are like this, but the ones who arent are generally quiet and are talked down at by the more 'authoratative' ones, there are so many inhouse admin fights there its almost unbearable.
Their membership appears to be quite unhappy at times by the way they are being represented in public.
There are so many disputes in threads that are visible on their forum, that anyone wanting to see how unprofessional they are could get a complete insight in a days reading.
anticultist said this on April 18, 2010 at 12:36 pm | Reply

Just a quickie for you Kris proving robots and science means shit in context of the venus project.
Why ?
Because Jacque Fresco has invented nothing himself since the 1960s and its all irellevant stuff and out of date.
Everything he states about technology is simply common technological knowledge the average interested punter can find online.
Dont believe me? sensors on cars, Mercedes/BMW have all been involved in that for years and built practical working examples that were tested. Memory alloys are old hat that are considered in the aviation industry, Jacque did not invent it. Domed homes were patented, tested and invented by Buckminster Fuller, aerodynamic cars again invented and physically built by Buckminster Fuller. The list goes on and on for his second hand anouncements of technological possibilities.
Now if you look at the rest of the blog you will see this isn't the TED forum nor does it pretend to be. This is not about how viable some of the science is, we are all well aware of computers and robots here man, please dont kid yourself that we are stupid. It is kind of simple and I will lay it out for you, we think that some of the more spurious claims are not achievable and that there are holes everywhere in TVP's/TZM's claims.
Regarding knowledge of science:
Personally speaking I do have knowledge of science, in fact I have a lot of science knowledge [analogue & digital electronics/software programming/DSP/physics/mechanics] and upto post graduate level. I dont need to have a pissing contest with you, just because we dont talk about something does not mean we don't have any understanding of it, thats a false conclusion to jump to. It just means it is unecessary to discuss it out of context, you may even find some people here are beyond your own grasp of science in certain fields, so dont go shooting your mouth off if you dont know for sure.
As an aside:
There is no reason to talk robots and science in this thread, because its discussing some kid lifting the wig off their admin and peering at their bald head.
Thanks for stopping by TEDS that way ------>
anticultist said this on April 18, 2010 at 6:27 pm | Reply

I wonder if the test is in different languages.
I wonder if the test if forced on the current members to take.
I wonder...
I dislike it when admins and moderators use generic accounts like that and try to slam the law book on you hiding their identity like punks. Very cowardish. I didn't like seeing that as a MOD and I don't like seeing that now.
---------
"Damn, I haven't been active in the forum and to know the admin's attitude is something like this is totally unacceptable."
I agree.
"What kind of people they are getting to moderate the forum anyway?"
Yes-men.
"Do all the mods have this attitude problem?"
Yes, man (pun-intended).
With this test, MODs think they are probably teachers now which makes the environment more disturbing.
---------
"That is pretty funny that guys got a smart way of saying things."
Yeah, it's amazing.
"I am looking forward to taking notes on the zeitgeist IQ test."
http://conspiracyscience.com/forums/topic/zeitgeist-movement-entrance-exam
BAM!
---------
"A test to get into the forums!!!! LOL"
I know, I know...
"If such a test is based on knowledge I might come back just to be a pain in their ass."
Oh Boy!
"Example "Hey everyone I'm back, I passed the test. That means I can talk shit about your plan and no one can say shit right?"
That would be hilarious. But they would just call you a type 3 "troll". I just love who that word expands and expands. And to levels, who would have thunk it? They might get more "trolls" being sarcastic asking what level they are on as if they are playing a game. It's so funny.
---------
"Not all the mods are like this, but the ones who arent are generally quiet and are talked down at by the more 'authoratative' ones, there are so many inhouse admin fights there its almost unbearable."
Well, the ones that did not comply either left (like me) or got de-modded. Yes, I said it. Something about position of power just messes things up, apparently if you're paid or not. There's always perks for people to corrupt themselves over. Think about it.
"Their membership appears to be quite unhappy at times by the way they are being represented in public."
Yeah, that's why I left the movement. It's sad really.
"There are so many disputes in threads that are visible on their forum, that anyone wanting to see how unprofessional they are could get a complete insight in a days reading."
Yeah and after the threads are locked or/and people or warned with threats of banning, then it can get uncomfortable for communication in general.
BranManFloMore said this on April 28, 2010 at 2:23 am | Reply

You know, I'm for the test, for what might be considered all the wrong reasons!
As it will save people from the forums..
Nanos said this on June 9, 2010 at 7:54 am | Reply

It is also very interesting to note that for an anti credentialist movement who consider taking tests and exams and studies in the mainstream college system as indoctrination.
It is somewhat perplexing that they are copying the same standards and techniques to gain access to their forum.
Indoctrination ?
Why of course it is.
anticultist said this on June 9, 2010 at 6:42 pm | Reply

You know, I reckon the test was probably done in the best of intentions, without probably realizing the downsides.
But, as you cannot really question anything on TZM, no ones ever going to listen to suggestions on improving it, adjusting it, removing it/etc.
I find it, fascinating that TZM follows the behavior of many organisations in the way that it evolves and copies much of things its against.
I guess its yet another example of evolution in practice, and shows that we are very much slaves to our genetic programming to behave constantly like primitive apes who can't get along with each other so well as we like to think.
I had hoped we could break away from that, and use what intellect we had to spot when things are going pear shaped and adjust, but instead we just get dragged down with everyone else.
It always seems to hinge on having a good leader by chance..
If not, they fail to spot these problems themselves and we get a repeat performance.
Its such a shame to rely on chance to save the planet..
I thought we was better than relying on that, what ever happened to our ability to work together and use our minds for goodness sake!
At least there is the odd beacon of hope here or there, now with the internet its never been easier to find like minded souls, only its a shame we all tend to live so far apart.
Nanos said this on June 10, 2010 at 7:58 am | Reply

I noticed they banned you, Peter wrote a big elongated thesis on why it was justified.
Basically that test is to discourage people like you and I from ever posting.
anticultist said this on June 10, 2010 at 3:35 pm | Reply

yo, nanos...why you never make contact bro? missed ya. Come on over to RBEF some time and chat.
I'm dying over there from lack of peeps.
prometheuspan said this on June 11, 2010 at 11:24 pm | Reply

Yeah, it's pretty quiet there. You're welcome there Nanos.
BranManFloMore said this on June 12, 2010 at 12:02 am | Reply

[...] Love this Kid [...]
Zeitgeist Blogs: Zeitgeist is a Mind Heist « Zeitgeist Movement Exposed said this on November 10, 2010 at 9:10 pm | Reply

[...] Love this Kid [...]
Zeitgeist Blogs: Zeitgeist is a Mind Heist « Zeitgeist Movement Exposed said this on November 10, 2010 at 9:12 pm | Reply




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Earth 2 movie Fails [ For the Venus Project] and creators cut Fresco loose ! April.8.2010 32 50
3 part

http://web.archive.org/web/20110920191042/http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/04/08/earth-2-movie-venus-proect-fails-and-reators-cut-fresco-loose/




We always said we were on a journey; a journey of exploration, a journey of learning. Given the subject matter of Earth 2.0 - namely the new operating principles our species needs to employ if we are to have a sustainable biospherical future - creative ups and downs in the pre-production process were always going to be inevitable. But it still came as a distinct shock to us when we got into a bit of a rumble with The Venus Project (see an earlier blog article about our initial visit to The Venus Project a few months back). Well, it started out as a bit of a rumble but soon escalated to the point where we were forced to part company with working with them. In retrospect this is no bad thing and has meant that we are learning to stand on our own two feet independently of other projects. After all, we are making an independent movie and our creativity is at the behest of no organisation or movement (other than the biosphere of course).

Signs of looming trouble began in New York in mid-March. We were there to meet up again with Jacque Fresco (director of The Venus Project) along with his partner Roxanne Meadows. They were appearing at the annual Z-Day event (part of the Zeitgeist Movement). Now, up until this point we had been working very closely with Jacque. Indeed, we had lined him up to be the first main 'actor' in Earth 2.0. We wanted to him to delineate the core principles of The Venus Project such as the sharing of the Earth's resources. In fact, the idea has been to focus one section of Earth 2.0 on the notion of sharing and all that this implies.
The trouble began one morning over breakfast. As we sat and talked in a 71st Street restaurant, a background 'issue' came to the fore once more. Basically, Jacque and Roxanne do not like metaphysics. Anything spiritual or pertaining to the expansion of consciousness is anathema to The Venus Project. They even refer to popular spiritual ideas as "verbal masturbation". We knew this harsh stance of theirs only too well from previous meetings but had not let it interfere with our collaboration. Yet it was becoming ever more clear, at least to us, that The Venus Project will not be able to deliver its healing promise all by itself but needs to be driven by raised consciousness and changed values, both of which are psychological in nature and also unavoidably connected to emotion and spirit.


In other words, it is not enough to change social conditions and surround people with humane and intelligently applied technology (Mr Fresco's futurising revolves around this). All that means nothing if people themselves do not change inwardly in terms of their consciousness and their values. No matter how prevalent you make resources, no matter how utopian you engineer culture, no matter how efficient your mag-lev trains are, no matter how free you are of laborious work, people will still remain subject to petty negative emotions and will still have unhealthy relationships with one another. They will still identify with various exclusive groups, they will still be mean and angry and envious and be subject to all those other negative manifestations that we suffer from. These negative aspects of the human psyche are mechanical (i.e. they happen on their own) and effect us all regardless of external conditions. Yes, you can certainly design a culture which brings out the best in people and which does away with scarcity and financial corruption and such. But unless people develop themselves inwardly through mindfulness and self-knowledge, they will still find something to covet, something to get angry about, something to compete over, something to bear a grudge over, something to form a chip on the shoulder about, someone to be angry at, someone to fight with, someone to make into an enemy, someone to be envious of, and so on. And it is through a lack of consciousness and attentiveness to our relationships that leads to all of the above. Relationships are everything. Our relationships, with others and also toward environmental influences, define our lives. The chief problems of humanity therefore boil down to unhealthy relationships - with one another, with the rest of the biospherical web of life, and, ultimately, with the rest of the cosmos.
Consider how luxurious our lives are now compared with people living in the Middle Ages (back then there was no running water, no electricity, no shops, no cheap clothing, no fast food, no public transport, no spare time, no media, no internet, no mobile phones, no NHS, no welfare, no human rights, etc). We in the West now have pretty much everything in comparison. Yet we are still subject to stress, depression, existential malaise, greed, ego inflation, hatred, ecological insensitivity, racism, alcoholic violence, religious war, along with all manner of other negative manifestations and problematic relationships.
Thus, to reiterate, only inner psychological change - a change in values, an increase in self-knowledge, and a changed conception of our relationship to the biosphere and to one another - can pave the way toward healthy long term cultural change. Which means that radical personal change must precede radical social change. Our culture and all that our culture values and promotes is a direct reflection of the values of the collective psyche. If we change our minds and our values, if we become more sensitive to the life-support system that is the biosphere, if we change how we relate to one another and to the rest of Nature, if we upgrade our conception of the meaning of life, then our culture will change also.


Anyhow, we told Jacque and Roxanne that alongside The Venus Project our film will perforce feature other positive directions for change, other important visionary ideas. In particular, along with sharing, we will likely feature a section on symbiosis as well as a section pertaining to consciousness and self-knowledge (i.e. those ideas and practices that directly address the inner world outlined above). Plus a section on the various technologies at our disposal that can help to promote sharing, symbiosis and a new relationship with the rest of Nature. And all done in an artistic cinematic style.


Sounds fair enough? Not so. Explaining that Earth 2.0 wanted to present other strands of thought alongside the ideals of The Venus Project caused tremendous consternation. It soon became clear that The Venus Project is so rigid and inflexible that it will not associate itself with any other ideas. Worse, when we tried to explain why we wanted to feature a section on symbiosis (because it is a sustainable operating principle long employed throughout the web of life), Jacque and Roxanne would not have it. Indeed, they would not even allow the conversation to proceed forward. And I dearly wanted to tell them about mitochondria (the energy producing organelles inside our cells that have their own DNA thereby revealing their symbiotic origins). But it was impossible. They did not wish to listen.


This stubborn conviction that The Venus Project possesses the only practical way to solve the world's problems proved to be so marked that voices became raised. Yet we bent over backwards trying to reason with them. Surely being featured in a major release cinematic film would be for the best and would help them to spread their message regardless if it was included as part of a broader spectrum of new ideas? I mean, their Florida residence was at that time for sale. They need publicity and funds. But no, they adamantly refused to mix their ideas with other ideas, particularly if those other ideas were about learning from Nature or about metaphysics and self-knowledge. And so it was that we parted company.
Looking back on these events, what we have learned is that one can differentiate between The Venus Project (a rigid organisation) and some of the ideas it promotes (which are adaptable). For instance, the idea that the Earth's resources be shared and that mankind behave like the global family that it actually is, is not a new idea nor is it copyrighted to The Venus Project. In fact, much of what Jacque Fresco talks about and writes about is voiced by any number of wise people. Thus, Earth 2.0 will still explore the notion of sharing planetary wealth and behaving toward one another in a non-competitive non-profit way. And rather than focus on the circular cities of Jacque Fresco, Earth 2.0 will look at current urban upgrades and current technologies that can bring us back into harmony with the larger biospherical system of which we are a part. Indeed, Earth 2.0 will look at what the web of life can teach us about sustainable behaviour - after all, life has had three and a half billion years to hone the art of sustainability.


Returning to the notion that the world is made of relationships and that it is relationships that must evolve and be upgraded if we are to have a sustainable planetary tenure - this notion of relationships came to the fore with the break with The Venus Project. For the plain fact of the matter is that The Venus Project is, by its very nature, incapable of relating to many people. It is as though it has been in a bubble for the last 30 years, separated from the rest of the world, and has lost the power of empathetic communication. So whereas Mr Fresco can speak well on stage about various subjects, as far as current trends are concerned wherein people are upgrading their lives in an eco-friendly way, this is something that seems outside the scope of The Venus Project (having visited the sprawling headquarters of The Venus Project numerous times it is rather ironic that, despite copious Florida sunshine, there are no solar panels, nor are there any signs of home-grown vegetables).

The biggest problem however is when the issue at hand turns to mind and spirit - for this is something that leaves The Venus Project cold and mute. Yet we are all in this reality together and thus we have to relate to one another via common ground. This common ground is the biosphere, Nature, the web of life on Earth, that larger life support system into which humanity is woven. And the common ground is also our inner life, our consciousness. This too we share and this too we can upgrade. All this must be taken into account by Earth 2.0. So now we stand on our own two feet and now we move forward with determination and confidence. This is the Way.

Simon G. Powell - Earth 2.0 scriptwriter - April 2010


http://earth2movie.blogspot.com/2010/04/earth-20-finds-its-own-way.html


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Anticultist blog comments




Welcome to the club. Literally hundreds of people gave their blood, sweat and tears, since the 1960′s, to help make Fresco's dream possible. Once these followers are parted with their money, their services are no longer required, and they are dumped, and he leaves town. Marxism (by any other name)cannot tolerate spiritual beliefs, because you need to break a few eggs to make an Omelette. Just ask Pol Pot or Fidel Castro. Ask Fresco where the money came from to purchase the Venus Property in the first place. And what happened to the investors who never got their money back. Fresco's favorite line is "The Venus project IS NOT a DEMOCRACY". It's his way or the highway. Imagine if he was in a position of power where he could "really" do some damage! It's great being an avowed Atheist, morality is "relative" regardless of who is hurt in the process. The rules of morality are made up as you go along. That being said, his reading list is still well worth looking at, artistic drawings have their limitations without foundational information.
Euripide Sneed said this on April 8, 2010 at 5:44 am | Reply

Hey there thanks for passing by.
You said Ask where he got his money for the Venus Project land and also insinuated he takes money and then cuts people off and runs. At least thats what I am interpreting.
Would you care to elaborate on this and provide us with a history of what you know, have heard and perhaps some names and evidence?
I would love to read more about this.
anticultist said this on April 8, 2010 at 3:15 pm | Reply

Well i guess that this cult are losing more and more credability with each passing day.At this point he is certainly giving credability to his critics claims of hypocrisy and this becoming a dictatorship as ive said before JF,RM and PJ should not be going around putting down religion and spiratual beliefs so strongly as there would be many moderates who would agree with concepts of TVP but wouldnt be ready to put away their religious/spiratual beliefs just now or at all.I'm atheist myself but I dont rubbish other peoples beliefs (i only have a problem with the fundies) and I know tht groups that do rubbish something as widespread and ingrained in society as religion/sprituality usually dont last very long
Shane Nolan said this on April 8, 2010 at 1:27 pm | Reply

Indeed.
They seem to think they are doing themselves a service by casting aside the majority of the worlds population, yet at the same time are attempting to recruit the worlds population.
This in itself is a juxtaposed mess they are making of their movement.
The way i see it is like this, Jaque has always been a stubborn old fucker [watch his interviews old and new for evidence], and he will not budge an inch on his beliefs and borrowed ideas. He is possibly one of the most difficult and arrogant people I have had the displeasure of watching and listening to, so it hardly suprises me a bit that he has never gotten anywhere in all this time. In the 35 years he has been working at this he has had 7 businesses with different people, the only person to have stuck with him all through it is Roxanne his younger bed buddy. Now judging from this latest escapade it is clear why he has had zero zuccess at achieving his goals, he is not someone people seem to like working with.
And one has to ask the question, is he doing it intentionally ?
Perhaps he has a lack of empathy and inability for cooperation that is so extreme he is bordering on mania or manipulation. ?
anticultist said this on April 8, 2010 at 3:26 pm | Reply

In reference to your question, I don't want to elaborate to the point that it sounds like I want to bash Fresco. Because, in fact, there are many worse people in this world. And, he lives a life of frugalness, having survived the depression. So, those of us who invested in his projects do not have the interest in ever taking him to court, because he has been and always will be a "grandfather" figure to us. That being said, "fool me twice, shame on ME". He doesn't solicit money from people to buy fancy cars (as do some religious leaders), almost ALL the money he receives goes back into his art work, and toy models. So, under the circumstances, I gave him a "pass" for his actions, a long time ago, and in fact learned a lot from his various lectures. I learned to think straight, and corrected many of my metaphysical "assumptions" about the universe. But, like many eccentric "creative types", he has a sort of tunnel vision when it comes to remembering who his friends and supporters are. You're IN today, OUT tomorrow!
In the 1970s he was having regular membership meetings at his home in Miami. With a weekly group of maybe 10 to 12 followers. Up until then, everything was only on paper, with "nothing" to show the rest of the "non-believing" world. So, the group (called Sociocyberneering at the time) signed an agreement to purchase some land (near Miami where they all lived) and they agreed to make regular monthly payments until the land was paid off. It would take several years to complete the payoff. The group had the vision to "live the dream" in their own little dome community. The community was to be self-sustaining with agriculture and other manufacturing products Fresco had designs for. They even donated funds for some small dome molds, which could be used for acquiring government grants. The group made regular payments, many of them making only minimum wage (most of members were low income, well meaning do-gooders). Whatever it took to make the monthly payments was done, even if it meant skipping a few meals a week. The goal was to show the world "what is possible with futuristic science on your side".
One day, without discussion, the land that was purchased was sold. A new "legal entity" was created in the middle of nowhere (Venus), so that the investors would not be able to live there and commute to work at the same time. The new entity was called the "Venus Project". The proceeds from the sold land was "funneled" into this new entity. The original investors in Sociocyberneering would have no "standing" or voting rights in the new entity. There was no other reason to change legal entities except to protect the funds from those who had built up the fund. If the goal was just to locate a nicer neighborhood, the Sociocyberneering entity could have continued to have control and voting rights of the new land. But, not so if you "dissolve" (under the attorney's advice) the first entity, and create a second entity. Those members who were upset about this surprise move were assured that they were still welcome to "visit" the new entity and new land "anytime" they wanted to. But, they would have NO voting privileges as to how the money would be spent with the new entity. In the beginning, the 2 hour drive from Miami was tolerated, just to "visit" the new property. But, in the end, most of the investors cut their losses, and stopped contributing further, and said goodbye to any money they had deposited. The bottom line is that we are talking about events that happened over 30 years ago. Some of the members of the time are no longer alive. Most have all lost contact with each other. But, it is safe to say, in spite of all the financial disappointment that happened, most if not all the former members would like to see Fresco succeed. BUT, they prefer to admire him from "afar", in the same way you can watch and enjoy a "Kung Fu" demonstration on stage, without having to jump on stage in the middle of all the "Kung-Pow" and get kicked by a "well meaning" performer. I would recommend anyone who has not heard any of his lectures to do so. He is one of the best of what he does, namely, explaining "systems approach" methodology to those students who never heard of the phrase. And also he helps people understand "TEC" (total enclosure) systems, as found on cruise ships, and applied to small futuristic communities. I'm sorry I have no other specific details about what happened 30 years ago. I am a strong believer that people should "experience him" directly, on their own terms, and determine yourself what he is or "is not" in terms of his personal behavior. I was particularly moved by your "experience" at the beginning of this blog, and how your well meaning words just "bounced off" him. But, to be honest, if I were to meet Einstein in person, I can't guarantee that he would be any easier to deal with on a "human" level. "Uncommon people" many times cannot relate to us "common people", and maybe it has always been that way.....
Euripide Sneed said this on April 8, 2010 at 11:37 pm | Reply

Thank you for taking time to give us this information, I think I can validate that what you are saying is correct from the video.
"The venus Project Welcome to the future" where it introduces the other members of socio cyberneering [update these arent the sociocyberneering members], I watched this a while back to find out more about Jacques past. It seemed like it was a small school of people just like you said.
I think what you said about the liquidating of assets and then turning it over to the present owners and voiding the team was a very shrewd and calculating thing to do.
You appear to be a lot more willing to forgive and give the man credit than most people I know would be.
To me this seems plain dishonest and it makes me worry and wonder about the present memberships efforts to make this man and woman [because she is not innocent in this at all, she was there during all this] more money, as I have discussed in my 'venus project is not just non profit' thread here on this blog.
How you handled this says more about your character than his/hers so again thankyou for that post.
For the readers wanting to see this sociocyberneering video please start at part 1 below, all parts are stored on youtube.

anticultist said this on April 9, 2010 at 2:37 am | Reply
I think there might be a mix-up with the video. There is no mention of Sociocyberneering or their membership in it. As far as Venus Project is concerned, there is no voting membership that I know of. Just Jacque. That was the main advantage of dissolving Sociocyberneering, no more "votes" to contend with.
In reference to your other point about forgiveness, I must confess that I WAS distressed while it was all happening, and it DID take several years to cool down. The same is true for the other members. It is "not" his goal to bite the hand that feeds him, it just happens with him "naturally" out of habit. He is focused on the goal, and not the intricacies of "give and take" which is all a part of working with a team. He works best when he is alone, period. He just wants someone to hand him a billion dollars and "shut up", and not ask any questions. Consequently, none of the multiple millionaires who were introduced to him in the past, by some of his supporters, were interested or enticed to "buy in" to an "offer/relationship" like that. It's almost funny that he seems "surprised" that no one in a position of responsibility wants to just "dump" a bag of money on his lap, with no questions asked. We try to explain to him that this only happens in the movies, but he is never amused by this observation. Anyway, keep up the good work, and I will enjoy reading your updates in the future...
Euripide Sneed said this on April 9, 2010 at 5:08 am | Reply

Ah right the reason I said this [about the video] was because it mentions Grover herring perhaps the attorney you mentioned ? And then went on to introduce other people, I simply thought these people were part of that sociocyberneering team because none of them are mentioned or even present now.
It semed to fit with your story a bit.
There are a lot of people he has been linked to in business in the past:
grover herring
cathrine coniber
charles kindler
creighton a dickerson
don gillette
millard deutsch
richard fogleman
sam laurie
steve doll
I am beginning to wonder if these people have the same experiences and opinions about him as yourself, hence why the business connections dissolved and they are no longer around.
anticultist said this on April 9, 2010 at 12:07 pm | Reply

Exactly. OK now I understand the reference to this video.
There never was any classroom. People sat on a couch in his living room at the peak of the membership in Miami. Over half the pictures in the video, including classrooms, is "stock video" that the film maker took from some video library. The people you list were all volunteers who tried to contribute to his cause at one time or another. They come and go like a revolving door. They come in "excited" and "inspired", and leave "despondent", knowing that the organization is about teaching, but not necessarily about "team work" and "doing". It has always been a one man show, and always will be. I compare it with "grade school". It's a "crucial" experience towards teaching us the 3 "R"s, it prepares us for the real world or college, but the course is fixed and limited. You will never learn Calculus, Chemistry or Physics there. It's a nice place to visit, "but I wouldn't want to live there" as the old saying goes. But, I must stress that it is up to the individual, to decide when they have had enough. Some people have had enough after 1 lecture, others continued to learn for several years before leaving. 90% of the lecture content has not changed since the 1950′s. And that's OK. That's what grade school is about. Should we stop teaching basic math in grade school simply because it was taught 100 years ago? No, children still need to learn 1+1 before they move on to Calculus. We can't start children on Calculus (at least, not with current technology). We need Fresco to pull us out of the "mental mud" that society exposes us to as children, in that he teaches us to think more clearly, with our "brains full of mush". BUT, then that moment must come, and only "you" will know when that time "is", and you are told "time for you to leave" (either by Fresco, or your inner voice)....
Euripide Sneed said this on April 9, 2010 at 2:56 pm | Reply

Personally I dont need Fresco nor never really did, I thought like him and about the stuff he does before I ever came across him. The reason I liked VP was because it was similar to the way I had previously thought, and as many members will testify it is like a kinship in finding someone with a similar kind of outlook that draws them there.
Indeed many people think and have thought about the things Fresco discusses, so there is certainly nothing unique about him or his concepts.
I like the way you say it though, [paraphrasing] Fresco is a primary school teacher, his content is basic and unscientific. When you become bored you need to get serious and Fresco provides little serious content other than ideas and pictures.
anticultist said this on April 9, 2010 at 4:03 pm | Reply

True, AC. True. I agree. And as Anon said, he's boring.
mickeymouse2012 said this on April 10, 2010 at 10:21 am

What makes Fresco so appealing? I honestly do not understand. I have watched his videos and read his material. But I have yet to feel any awesome lightning bolt of inspiration strike my brain. Mostly I am bored to tears.
Anon said this on April 9, 2010 at 3:40 pm | Reply

Yes, for many adult minds, there is no lightning bolt listening to Fresco. Fresco's entire "lecture circuit" is a combination of several influences in his life: The (ancient) movie "The shape of things to come" (Wells), The Technocracy Movement, The works of BF Skinner, The works of Buckminister Fuller (modified by Monolithic Dome concepts), and books such as Tyranny of Words, The Natural History of Nonsense, Science & Sanity, Mechanistic Conception of Life, Pavlov, Prefabrication theory using space age plastics, and finally "Engineers & Price System" (Veblin). There are 100 more books, but these are the core concepts of his lecture circuit. Many students graduating high school today or in College will probably "never" read most of these books in their life time. And they probably have no desire to. So, a lecture from Fresco puts all these concepts together in just a few hours. But, I agree, it is best to read the books directly if you have the time.
Euripide Sneed said this on April 9, 2010 at 4:58 pm | Reply

Did you happen to see on their website last year they were trying to sell their land in venus for $700,000 and then cut and run to Ecuador ?
Sorry I dont mean that to be rude mentioning it, just wondered what your thoughts about that were if you had not seen it.
Personally speaking when the group found out about it there were all kinds of arguments going about. The land had been up for sale for a long time too, and they kept reducing the price, Roxanne and the others even made out like they were doing people a favour selling it so cheaply.
But in the context of this information its clear now that no matter how much they sell it for they are going to always make a profit off it, and I am willing to bet most of it was paid by all these members in the 1970′s.
What incredible nerve these two have, in the emails in a thread here she makes out like we should feel sorry for her hardships, what a pile of baloney this really makes me angry.
anticultist said this on April 9, 2010 at 6:45 pm | Reply

The property near Miami was was purchased for approximately $16,000, which was a lot of money in the 70′s, when people were trying to live on minimum wage. I don't know how much it was sold for, since it was still undeveloped. Probably approximately the same price. The property in Venus was approximately $40K, because it was more acreage. I believe that the property in Venus is under his own name so that there is no distribution requirement if he sells the property. When he sold his home in Miami for over $100K (or maybe $150K?), there was enough money to pay for the Venus property, with the help of the Sociocyberneering funds. So, he did put up a few buildings on the Venus property which would serve as his new home. But, the value of all the buildings "combined" would be under $100K because they are sort of made of metal and gunnite, as opposed to more expensive materials like bricks or lumber. So, the asking price of the land is a little high compared to values of the surrounding acreage. Yes, I had read someplace that some politicians in Ecuador invited them to live there at their own expense, and maybe help with tourism. It is possible they may have even offered him a grant to build some safer housing that could survive disasters of weather or earth quakes. But, I've been out of the loop for many decades.
Euripide Sneed said this on April 9, 2010 at 8:47 pm | Reply

Jacque must of owned a large house back then in the 70′s to be able to sell it for that ammount of money.
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/housing/census/historic/values.html
anticultist said this on April 9, 2010 at 9:28 pm | Reply


This is verbal masturbation?
And BSing your way to a life of luxury at the serfdom of others isnt?
Shane Nolan said this on April 9, 2010 at 10:10 pm | Reply

Inspirational video!
The housing prices in Miami have always been higher than the "Florida" average. There is a lot of unused land in Florida. A chart of "Miami" that only goes back 20 years gives a closer approximation, as follows: http://mysite.verizon.net/vodkajim/housingbubble/miami.html
The home was actually a 2 bedroom, in a borderline neighborhood. It needs to be understood that he never "made it big" doing what he does. He mostly was, and is, unemployed. His income from giving lectures at his home was only $10-$20 per lecture, 2 or 3 times a week. Roxanne, being an unemployed art major, helped a little with the rent. But, no, I don't envy his current financial status. This recent "lecture circuit" is probably more lucrative than anything he has done before. But, I have NO idea what his going rate is these days to be a "guest speaker", plus per diem? But, it definitely helps to pay the bills, compared to what he was making doing "odd jobs". Now, if he actually gets $700K for that land, I will change my opinion about him being poor. That would make a nice nest egg. But, I think the actual value might be closer to $200K-$300K, if they can get that much.
Euripide Sneed said this on April 9, 2010 at 11:28 pm | Reply

The current quotes stated on ZM page are he gets $8000 $6000 to speak [acording to an email TVP sent to the poland chapter], and Roxanne publicly stated they will not fly coach due to Jacques poor health, so theres the added cost of 1st class air fare.
Milking it ?
oh and Roxanne always has to travel with him as well as another condition.
Also for someone who is against woo and spirituality its interesting to note he charged them this and travelled to Cancun to do a 2012 tipping point lecture filled with woo and spirituality.
Perhaps when it comes to money even the great Fresco can be bought ?
the so-called 2012 Prophets Tipping Point Conference. This was all a bit strange and 'new agey' but it was powerful circumstantial currents what took us there m'lud. Surprisingly the conference took place in an ultra posh five star hotel - not the sort of place you go to on a budget (this led to lots of jokes about it being a Profits Conference). Anyhow, we spent our time interviewing attending speakers like Graham Hancock, John Major Jenkins, Jose Arguelles, Daniel Pinchbeck, and others. It was also the case that the inimitable Jacque Fresco from The Venus
http://earth2movie.blogspot.com/2010/02/banned-from-chichen-itza-earth-20-goes.html
anticultist said this on April 9, 2010 at 11:31 pm | Reply

Wow. That's a year's salary (he would normally collect), and getting it in ONE evening! Id say that they are doing OK, since the land is already paid for with no mortgage. I guess the "price system" isn't so bad after all. According to his schedule, I would think he does "at least" 2 or more appearances per month.
Euripide Sneed said this on April 10, 2010 at 1:07 am | Reply

Just so you know you are safe to post here.There are some of the fanatic ZM members who always try to post here whose posts I dont allow to be viewed.
Some of the things they are saying about you and us here is very rude, for instance one person here is making out like you are a liar and that we are making this all up ourselves. [in much more explicit and conspiracy theorist based terminology]
We get this all the time on this blog from their strange members, so beware if you decide to go public who you are, that they will bombard you with all manner of hate mail.
As you probably know there are some strange people on the internet, and the Zeitgeist movement has attracted quite a lot of those types.
anticultist said this on April 10, 2010 at 1:38 am | Reply

Date Country City Definite/not
6th April Colombia Bogota yes
15th April New Zealand Auckland yes
17th April New Zealand Wellington yes
21st April Australia Brisbane yes
23rd April Australia Sydney yes
25th April Australia Melbourne yes
29th April Australia Perth yes
8th May Japan Tokyo yes
20th May India Bangalore yes
5th June Slovenia Ljubjana yes
8th/10th June Greece Athens yes
26th/27th June Netherlands Eindhoven yes
3rd July Portugal Lisbon prob
10th July Spain Valencia yes
17th July France Paris prob
24th July Sweden Stockholm yes
31st July Denmark Copenhagen yes
7th August Scotland Glasgow yes
14th August Ireland Dublin yes
21st August England Bristol prob
28th August Germany Munich yes
4th September Switzerland Geneva yes
11th September Italy Milan prob
18th September Iceland Reykjavík prob
25th September Canada Montreal yes
2nd October Canada Toronto yes
9th October Canada London yes
16th October Canada Calgary yes
23rd October Canada Vancouver yes
USA x 5 Lecturesprob
* Yes = definite
* Prob = almost definite, still working on bringing to conclusion.
Thats 24 yes if we multiply that by $8000 per appearance we get = $192,000 plus 1st class air everywhere
anticultist said this on April 10, 2010 at 1:26 pm | Reply

While you are looking at the left hand, the right had will getcha. Just follow the money.... Ciao...
Euripide Sneed said this on April 11, 2010 at 3:25 pm
Speaking of following the money he is now selling his archived lectures in audio format from 1974-1980, pricey as well and will be terrible quality no doubt.
Would this be familiar to you personally ?
It states it was recorded by attendees to the lectures.
http://www.thevenusproject.com/store?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=33&category_id=6
anticultist said this on April 11, 2010 at 10:47 pm

Yes. It was very common to bring a tape recorder to the lectures. Sometimes 1 person would bring one. Other times several people would bring one. Admission varied between $1 per lecture session to $3 per lecture session depending on what year it was. In the 70′s it was $1 per session, in the 80′s it was $2-$3 per session. It was affordable to most people, and if they couldn't afford it, they could attend any way for free. Part of the fun was just meeting some of the other attendees after the session, and going to a restaurant for a snack. I haven't heard the quality of the sound, but normally the microphone was only a few feet away, since it was in a small living room (informal). If the price is high, you may be able to get a used copy on eBay for a few dollars. The lectures are well worth listening to if you never heard them. Especially if you don't want to read the hundreds of books that some of the information is extracted from. The problems came when we started to invest in the "futuristic commune", living like Captain Kirk, with beds that make themselves, and robots that would plant the crops, harvest the crops, and using only organic pest control and fertilizers. In those days organic foods were expensive, so it would be great to get it at a low cost through automation. Star Trek was big in those days, and most of us would pay anything to live that life style immediately, rather than wait 100 years when the rest of the society would have it. But, it wasn't meant to be, as you know....
Euripide Sneed said this on April 12, 2010 at 12:47 am

I am not that certain if I could stand listening to his repetitive anecdotal stories any longer. I have pretty much had my fill of listening to him repeat unsubstantiated claim after unsubstantiated claim. I would much rather read a good book with citations/references and an academic content.
It might be something other people feel willing to persecute themselves with, and maybe they will be even more foolish to pay the extortianate price they are asking who knows?
Personally speaking I find it interesting you were there from the beginning when it all started, and it must be quite interesting to you [aside from the obvious bad history] to observe Frankensteins monster be unleashed on the public ?
anticultist said this on April 12, 2010 at 1:10 am

I understand what you are saying. Some of my statements were tongue in cheek. I definitely wasn't there in the beginning. Just mid-seventies forward. He began many of his public lectures in the 60′s. I'm not really worried about his return to public speaking. I believe it is a temporary thing. Eventually, things will gradually begin to implode as the lecture audience begins to thin out. The cult following will probably continue to market his materials even after he retires. For example, his first book "Looking Forward" now sells from $200-$400 each. I remember I had 10 or 20 copies, years ago that were $6 each. But, they got lost over the years...
Euripide Sneed said this on April 12, 2010 at 3:21 am

Yeah I saw these prices for that book and simply laughed, I know for certain that book is not even worth a tenth of that price. But thats what happens when you get a sudden spout of interest in a person/topic people start capitalising monetarily off it.
anticultist said this on April 12, 2010 at 10:43 am

You will be intersted in this, its an email from TVP to a potential tour host in Poland
Nice to hear from you.
I have enclosed the Official PDF files for The World Tour 2010.
I think Jacque and Roxanne could probably be with you in Poland near the end of June. They are giving a Lecture in Slovenia on the 5th June, then to Greece, probably Turkey after that so end of June could be good for Poland.
You can organize a Lecture in 2 ways, one is to get a University or someone to sponsor it or you can organize it the way we did in London and hire a Lecture Theatre and sell tickets for it. We have a system set up for selling tickets which is linked directly to The Venus Project. We sold 720 Tickets for $25 USD here in London for 2 Lectures which were a complete sell out. Once the tickets were all sold Roxanne reimbursed us for the hire of the Lecture Theatre. It worked like clockwork here in the UK. We did have to put up a deposit for the Lecture Theatre before we sold the tickets however but obviously this was all reimbursed at the end.
I feel the best way to organize this is to hire a Lecture theatre and sell tickets.
Jacque and Roxanne would require 8000 Euros which includes the Lecture fee, 2 Business Class Flights and Hotel full-board during their visit.
The reason for this tour is essentially to spread the word about the Venus Project in the quickest way possible and also to enable The Venus Project to survive in this monetary system. Since the economic crash Roxanne's work has dried up completely and it was her salary that kept the Venus project going.
I would just like to add that the Venus Project has survived all these years from the hard work of Jacque and Roxanne and them ploughing into it all there own money, but since the credit crunch has hit us this source has dried up. The success of this world tour really will be the make or break of the Venus project financially. The Zeitgeist movement says that it is the activist arm of The Venus Project. Well, I feel it is time for us to activate and help The Venus Project to survive in this monetary system.
We are in the process of preparing a video clip, poster and flyer which you will be able to download soon to advertise your Event.
Jacque and Roxanne are happy to appear on TV shows, do interviews with journalists and radio shows whilst in the country hosting the Lectures too, anything which will help spread the information of a Global Resource Based Economy.
The Lectures will be two and half hours long, which includes a dvd of 15 minutes and 45 minutes Q & A's.
Let me know your thoughts on all of this.
Warmest regards,
Heather Odom
Event Coordinator for The Venus Project
anticultist said this on April 29, 2010 at 10:54 am | Reply

So let us look at that:
2.30 hour lecture includes 15 minute video & 45 minute Q & A
Which is a grand total of 1.30 hour lecture between Roxanne & Jacque. = 45 minutes each.
720 Tickets for $25 USD here in London for 2 Lectures
720 x 25 = $18,000 US per lecture
2 lectures = $36,000 US
Jacque & Roxanne require $8,000 for a lecture, they earned $16,000 here [London] for 3 hours talking, 1.30 hours answering questions, 30 mins watching a video.
The event organisers made: $36,000 [total for 2 events] -$16,000 [fees for 2 lectures] = $20,000 spare.
Whatever the venue hire was is obviously subtracted but it aint gonna cost $20,000 I think we can agree here.
Business class air fares each cost there abouts = http://www.skyclub.com/specialfares.html
Full board hotel prices $150 - $900 per person per night
So theres money to be made for everyone involved who is having these two techno gurus visiting town.
anticultist said this on April 29, 2010 at 8:18 pm

It will be interesting to see how much of this "windfall profits" will be swept under the rug when it's time to file income taxes, since profits made out of the country are difficult for the IRS to track...
Euripide Sneed said this on May 5, 2010 at 12:18 pm

Fresco doesn't strike me as particularly scientific. He strikes me as dogmatic.
Anon said this on April 10, 2010 at 3:41 am | Reply

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=3&id=245808&limit=10&limitstart=120#246645
Hi All,
Andrew Buxton from TVPDesign here.
I have been asked by Simon Powell of the Earth 2.0 team to to post this on his behalf
(I have made my comments on the blog itself so i wont be re-posting here)
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I am the author of the Earth 2.0 blog article at the centre of this rather heated debate. In the light of some rather hurtful accusations on here and on Facebook, I would like to clarify a few things - and have asked Andrew Buxton to post this to the forum thread. In particular, let me explain a bit more about what happened at the breakfast event (which was a few days before Jacque's Z-Day talk). Yes, this is by necessity a one-sided recall but I will endeavour to tell it like it is/was.
I was explaining to Jacque and Roxanne about the second 'actor' we wanted who would be introducing the second section of the film. This was a certain professor who is an authority on symbiosis (co-operation). I was explaining that symbiosis is an operating principle that life has learned and that we can mimic it in our cultural and social behaviour. Jacque and Roxanne then started going on about the fact that you can have symbiosis but then it turns into something else, and also that the fact that this person was a professor meant nothing.
I explained that I was referring to mutualistic symbiosis (which is a scientific definition). I gave the example that about 90% of plant species have symbiotic fungi associated with them. Jacque responded by pointing out that certain fungi can attack trees and that we can't really get tutorial insights from Nature. I responded by saying that I was referring specifically to symbiotic fungi and not to parasitic fungi.
I then wanted to explain about mitochondria (VTV - please note that the midi-chlorians of Star Wars fame are based upon mitochondria, not the other way around) - that they are the powerhouses of cells that have their own DNA - thereby highlighting their symbiotic origins. Same with chloroplasts (organelles in plants that are bound up with photosynthesis) - these too have their own DNA and were once separate living organisms. And I was further trying to explain that mitochondria combine the oxygen that we breathe with the food that we eat and thus release the energy that our bodies run on. Hence mitochondria are important - indeed they are crucial for the whole animal kingdom. And they are present through an ancient symbiotic union. Symbiosis thus underlies key aspects of the tree of life. But I could not relate all this info to Jacque - he and Roxanne simply would not let me.
So symbiosis/co-operation is an important life principle (also evinced betwixt bees and plants, corals, gaseous exchanges betwixt plant kingdom and animal kingdom, etc) - and we can follow suit and learn from and adopt such a principle - i.e. have a symbiotic relationship with one another and with the rest of the biosphere. Or at least this is an interesting concept to think about. Jacque, however, would not let me get to the point - and I did raise my voice a bit and for this I hereby apologise. In short, it was impossible to speak on this subject and to really explain why we wanted Earth 2.0 to delineate info about symbiosis (we did not even get to talk about the other sections of the film).
Anyhow, the conversation broke down. Roxanne explained that they did not want TVP to be associated with other ideas or other directions. The example was given that it would be like mixing with Christianity or something - it would serve to mislead people about TVP.
When he left, Jacque told me that he "knew what I meant" - as if to say he was being devil's advocate or something. In any case, the meeting was not productive. It all fell apart. We did try very hard to convince them that it would be worthwhile being in E2 even if they were presented alongside other ideas - as long as they got to say what they needed to, surely that would be good? Alas no.
As to accusations that Earth 2.0 will be promoting religion or spiritual BS - we will likely have a section on consciousness. Many times J and R said they don't like this kind of talk. I noticed that they had a number of behaviourism books at their residence - and behaviourists never liked talking about consciousness.
I guess the 'spirituality' we are alluding to is bound up with our perceived connection with Nature (also bear in mind that Zeitgeist means 'spirit of the age' - so there are different definitions of 'spirit' and it is not necessarily a pejorative word). Such Nature-based spirituality (like in Avatar) has its place and is important to many people (I include myself).
I might also add that in a recent interview with Peter Joseph on Youtube he linked god with the laws of Nature (i.e. that they are synonymous). If pushed, this is exactly my stance - but I can't vouch for the rest of the E2 team. We also want to feature green tech and eco-upgrades - things like green roofs, eco-buildings, clean energy, and such. Plus the initial section of the film will still likely be about sharing and will explore many of the issues discussed by TVP.
As I have said elsewhere (although I am subject to change), I reckon the only organisation we should all readily declare absolute allegiance with is the self-sustaining biosphere itself. And the biosphere is flexible and evolves.
Simon G Powell
anticultist said this on April 10, 2010 at 3:50 am | Reply

This is such a reasonable sounding person and seems honest too, and he seems fairly open to helping ZM out. But from the way this conversation appears to have gone it looks like the dogmatic Jacque & Roxanne have once again attempted to hijack someone elses work or else leave, thereby ruining any chances they had.
Its also interesting to note the level of backlash from the ZM membership ranks in the thread I linked above and the original blog page. They simply can not get their head out their arses that this man is not talking about magical mystery theatre. He is attempting to be open to scientific processes and also give an element of unproven conscious theory a run through.
This movement is so far removed from everyone else these days that they are starting to look like a dead stick thats about to snap, as opposed to a soft fresh bendy branch. [my only analogy of the day here I believe]
anticultist said this on April 10, 2010 at 3:59 am | Reply

Frank Da Silva [Earth 2.0 director] said...
Thanks for all the participation, comments, feedback, interesting direct messages and emails of support and all the interest expressed so far - we reached 80 comments!! Keep it coming - we will not be closing or locking this discussion like the TZM forum did!! All open debate is good!
I posted this early on in another thread on Facebook:
With respect guys, we will be not dealing with 'metaphysics' like you guys are projecting (E2.0) will be... everything is speculation... We are not metaphysical, spirit worshipping people or hippies (like my friend Mark Waters pointed out)! The lack of communication is a major problem indeed. I also experienced the same lack of care for other peoples' opinions and communication was lacking many times over during TVP lectures and also at Zday NYC where I was a few weeks ago - I also saw/filmed Jacque/TVP lectures in 3 different countries so far with different types of audience. Some are saying we are not attached with reality because we only deal with 'metaphysical stuff' - well, REALITY is what you can get away with... reality can also become a "shared hallucination"! Take this example: (I am quoting here from a well known article on the subject) -
"if there was a race of people living on an island who thought that the color green was actually the color pink, are they wrong? To the majority of the people on this planet, maybe, but to them the notion of "being wrong" about something like that is absurd".
All I want to say is - lets stop projecting what E2.0 film might be like, etc... we need each other in all levels if you want to change something out there. So far, only a small bunch of people saw the inital provisional structure and the initial draft of the script for the E2.0 film. Lets stop pointing the fingers on each other and speculating in things we do not know for fact. Lots of (you- TVP/TZM fans/followers), are writing posts out there saying we will be presenting lots of phony people talking about 'metaphysics', spirits, and blah blah... so, please help me out here - (I'm producing/directing this film) - can you tell me who these so 'metaphysical' people are (?) because, I do not know yet!! Also, looks like everyone here knows how the script will be and how the film ( at least 3 years production) will be presented/filmed. By the way, we didn't even start the 'principal photography' yet!! Peace!
anticultist said this on April 10, 2010 at 8:18 pm | Reply

Reply from Jacque and Roxanne:
This is from a false name and is a false article. This only means that Jacque is getting more known these false accusations and lies, as Jacque always stated, will start to surface when people become more well know. This person sounds bitter and angry but also is grossly misinformed about the situations he is trying to discuss. There were many people who came to Jacque's lectures in Miami in the 1970's they came and when mostly depending upon how relevant the information was to their lives.
In fact we are now achieving some of these past lectures and we felt the information would be of great interest to many people. These are the lectures from the Miami area during the 1970,s. We now have just compiled 15 of these lectures on three 5 CD sets and on almost all of them you can hear Jacque at the end say it is $3.00 for non-members and $2.00 for members of Sociocyberneering not the $10 -$20 this person claims Jacque charged. This helps to show you what this person says below is utterly false in regards to what Jacque used to charge and also in many other areas as we will try and explain.
Many of Jacque's friends he had even in childhood are still his friends (those that are still alive) alone with many that went to his lectures in 160' and 70's.
Many people who attended the lectures that Jacque held in his home wanted to get together and purchase land and build something. Jacque was going to supply all of the designs. Jacque offered drawing lesson so people could participate in some way but it really boiled down to three people do did most of the work the others were mostly verbal.
They did put up enough money to get a down payment for about 40 acres of land in Naples, Florida for about $600. an acre, but they did not continue the payments except for 3 people but those 3 could not make the land payments alone so a lawyer friend of Jacque's, Cleave Herring, came forth and continued the payments until we could sell the land. Nothing was made on that venture.
It was strange because if the group did follow through with the payment and kept the land if they ever wanted to sell it would have been worth millions because that area became a very exclusive wealthy area to live. The land value rocketed in Naples. But Jacque was not going into it as a business venture.
I imagine people pulled out for different reasons but some said the zoning board would never let Fresco build what they wanted to build. After everyone pulled out. Jacque, with drawings, went to the zoning board out of curiosity and asked for a half hour to speak with the person in charge. They spoke for an hour and a half the gentleman asked if he could join the organization and said he would do whatever he could to help the project develop. Unfortunately by that time there was no organization after the members stopped paying on the land.
There was no profit from the sale of the land in Naples in fact money was lost after paying back Herring, the real estate agent and the rest of the mortgage. We were just glad to get it sold so there was no more debt piled up. That whole episode was disappointing to Jacque and the other two people who continued to work with him. After all he put out a lot of effort with people for over a decade to teach them things in all areas.
As I said some of these lectures are now available to the public and can be found on our website. We are working on getting more available but it is a long process to do this.
The money to buy the land in Venus came from the sale of a home in Miami Jacque sold. He lived there for about a year of more. This house was in the black section of Miami so you know the land value was not high.
This person states:
The property near Miami was purchased for approximately $16,000,which was a lot of money in the 70's, when people were trying to live on minimum wage. I don't know how much it was sold for, since it was still undeveloped. Probably approximately the same price. The property in Venus was approximately $40K, because it was more acreage. I believe that the property in Venus is under his own name so that there is no distribution requirement if he sells the property. When he sold enough money to pay for the Venus property, with the help of the Sociocyberneering funds. So, he did put up a few buildings on the Venus property which would serve as his new home. But, the value of all the buildings "combined" would be under $100K because they are sort of made of metal and gunnite, as opposed to more expensive materials like bricks or lumber. So, the asking price of the land is a
little high compared to values of the surrounding acreage.
This person who wrote this nasty article knows nothing about the prices he is remarking on. He is lying about all of this. The first parcel we purchased in Venus was 10 acres for a little over $1,600 an acre. Then over the years we purchase two other contiguous parcels that adds up to a little over 21+ acres. He knows very little about building processes either because building out of concrete and steal is far more expensive and durable than brick and timber. All of the other numbers are grossly incorrect as well.
We never changed the name to The Venus Project to cover up any deals regarding the sale of the land in Naples. We changed the name long after the purchase of the land in Venus because Sociocyberneering was too difficult to pronounce for people or even to remember. This was before the word cyber was even used. The Venus Project was simple and easy.
We don't want to spend much more time on this nonsense as most of what he is saying are lies, projections and out of some other misunderstanding. He never checked his statements with us and does not even use his real name. If you listen to the Fresco's Classic Lecture Series you will see that he took that name after hearing it from Jacque, which is ironic, but we mainly wanted to make a statement as to what happened in regards to the Naples property.
Jacque and Roxanne
Roxanne Meadows said this on April 14, 2010 at 2:37 am | Reply


Anticultist blog comments continued...
http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/forum/5539/archiving-anticultist-blog-on-sp/3/#reply-499c7a84


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Anticultist blog comments continued...


Hi guys,
What an eye opener this thread is...
This is my first post here, I attended the 'Venus Project' lecture in Auckland, New Zealand. It cost me $35 and I walked out with the majority of the audience as the Q&A was falling apart like a train wreck. Worth forgoing the pricey entry fee to get the hell out of there and go home. It seemed like a lot of people had some pretty relevant questions, and Jacque was only be able to answer with his parables and analogies, some of which were completely irrelevant. Not to mention most of us have all heard the same rhetoric a million times before. "Eskimo's and refrigerators", "Headhunters in the amazon" etc...
I have been a Zeitgeist member for over a year and a regular in the forums, but TVP presentation was so substandard that it really threw me. One would have thought that anyone proposing something as ambitious as the total redesign of society itself would have constructed some concise, comprehensive material for their world lecture tour. But no, there was a brief film, a small speech from Roxanne and then a free speech session by Jacque where he wasted most of his time slamming religion. Maybe his inability to directly and adequately answer questions is due to his age, but I don't think that everyone who was there getting bummed out from unanswered questions could be so considerate about such a thing. Especially considering the magnitude of the topic at hand.
I find it ironic that, while you mention that JF has serious issues with topics like religion, the lecture actually opened with a prayer from one of the ZMNZ's key figures. What's more, while waiting in line to get inside, people were handing out promotional pamphlets for all kinds of spiritual and New Age events. Apparently the common perception by the general public is that these things go hand in hand with TVP.
I can't help but think that, were Jacques ideas put across in a manner that was a little more scientific and a little less ideological and philosophical this might be a different story. I think that if the people producing the 'Earth 2.0′ film could explain "symbiosis" in a manner that relates to the dynamics of complex emergent systems, which is scientific, they would actually have one up on TVP as far as scientific tangibility is concerned.
Jellymeat said this on May 4, 2010 at 10:14 am | Reply

Hey jellymeat I recognise you from the forum, welcome and thanks for the post.
It all sounds paradoxical indeed, I also find it difficult to take these people serious any longer due to all the washed out anecdotes and claims with no evidence. Being humanitarian and stating one is humanitarian aren't quite the same thing, and TZM/TVP seem to completely miss this aspect of reality.
anticultist said this on May 4, 2010 at 12:31 pm | Reply

Many thanks and great appreciation for all the info posted on this topic. While I have great respect for the analysis of the prevailing socio-cultural processes and structures that Peter Joseph presents in his film and videos, I've had major reservations about the prescriptions for changes presented by Jaque Fresco. I somehow felt very queasy about what I'd seen and heard so far - and I for one have learned to listen to my 'intuition'.
I've recently added my name to ZM in New Zealand, and will now need to broach all this, as best I can, in the group here.
Cheers !
FP Ayran von Dreger
3 Sunset Road
Totara Vale 0632
North Shore City
AUCKLAND
NZ
former Chairman, Department of Political Studies, University of Prince Edward Island, Canada - retired
Ayran Dreger said this on May 16, 2010 at 9:41 am | Reply

welcome over here.
There is a lot of info held on the pages here thats going to make you think twice about joining that movement. Thankfully people are seeing through its empty rhetoric and side swiping tactics, and thats a relief to me and many ex members.
anticultist said this on May 16, 2010 at 11:04 pm

i can only imagine how empty handed jaques would be for the questions i could ask him.
we at RBEF will soon easily eclipse TVP in terms of meaningful research and science presentations etc.
Right now its messy and unpolished, but we have real process in place and are actually moving along slowly.
I hope that you will be interested in the new sketchup file sharing we have going on, and come on over and have me draw
your version of Utopia. After that we can apply science to the design... do all of this the right way...
never mind TVP...
to me they are only relevant for examples of what not to do.
we are having a bit of a roast that way actually, so that RBEF
never makes those kinds of mistakes and to enlighten the work on metaprocess.
i hope you join us there...
http://www.rbefoundation.com/viewgroup.php?f=389
thanks for your interesting thoughts.
:)
prometheuspan said this on May 5, 2010 at 5:35 am | Reply

It looks like Anonymous is on to them as well about this:

I find it weird that TZM & TVP folks say that people just do "verbal masturbation" when they are in disagreement with each other. The more they talk like this, the more people are going to think the Venus Project is some type of porn project. This type of language is not professional at all, not even funny. I remember Roxanne Meadows saying this in one of the lectures with
Jacque Fresco and I heard crickets. More signs of failure on their part. It's a shame.
I'm sure these guys (E20) will do a good job on their independent route. That's what the Venus Project gets for being so rigid I suppose. I guess all inventors are like this. If you really cared about the world and you want to get the message out as much as possible, you would think working together and discussing each other ideas through film or in public would do something productive, but that won't happen with TVP though.
The Venus Project dismissing these guys as "metaphyiscal" because they want to explore nature and spirituality is a contradiction in itself when you have Peter Joseph talking about how we should follow nature law and the word "Zeitgeist" means spirt of the time. Why doesn't Jacque Fresco dismiss the Zeitgeist Movement too? I bet to keep to the huge following going. After seeing that Albert Einstein misquote and slip up, Jacque Fresco should have split already. I'm deviating. It just doesn't make sense why this fall out really happened. I can't help but just recognize this as character assassination because they are embarrassed of their own short-comings.
Earth 2.0 seems to be advocating to get at true value change within people before we do anything technological for society and it reminds me how Jiddu Krishnamurti was used in Zeitgeist: Addendum in the intro and outro. I really see no differences in these approaches from then and now. They even wanted to tackle human behavior too from what I read here.
I'll be interested to see their other positive directions of change when their film comes out, if it comes out. I'll be looking forward to their film more than Zeitgeist 3 most likely. They even mentioned having a professor in Earth 2.0 and
they reject that? Pretty crazy. Credentials talk, those dismissing academia walk.
Them seeinmg them complain about not having any solar panels at the Venus Project probably sparked the idea that Nanos was talking about with them awhile back which I see no growth or mention about in their forum. Being in Florida, I'm actually a bit interested in this. You would think something like this
would be discussed in full detail. They complain about people doing lip service when they do the same thing, it's very
hypocritical. From listening to their lectures and radio shows, anyone can tell you that they become repetitive for awhile. Even Peter Joseph.
They just throw so many mixed signals, people will gradually not want to be bothered with the Zeitgeist Movement anymore. That's my opinion.
I do find it funny that TZM & TVP get upset when people challenge them when Jacque Fresco says at the beginning in every
lecture "don't be polite" when he encourages people to question him or criticize what he says. So yeah, it's their way or the highway and people will get in their own cars in drive off soon. We're going to continue to see a lot of hurt people coming from the Zeitgeist Movement. But people will find others to pull them out of the "mental mud" if they haven't learned how to pull people out of "mental mud" themselves.
In that Lynn Thompson interview, I remember Roxanne Meadows talking about how they knew someone in Ecuador and how they were
planning to build some kind of muesem there. I'm not sure what that was all about though, it doesn't look like that's going to happen though. That was back in 2008 before Zeitgeist: Addendum came out.
BranManFloMore said this on June 1, 2010 at 4:02 pm | Reply

hah yeah about that mixed messages thing I find that also.
Sometimes they make themselves pro spirituality to appeal to people, then they say they arent because it makes them look bad ?
To be fair i have gone past trying to figure out why they do it, because as far as I am concerned its popularity and money that is driving them.
anticultist said this on June 1, 2010 at 4:32 pm | Reply

You know... It's just so funny that they talk like this man. I wonder if Jacque Fresco is hoping to get an article in the PlayBoy like Herbert Marcuse did:
http://foreverybody.tumblr.com/post/267972130/marcuse-in-playboy
Too funny.
BranManFloMore said this on June 1, 2010 at 5:34 pm | Reply

haha Jacque's playboy park. Roxanne would'nt mind sharing him with a few large breasted vixens, she expresses no love and sharing as her motto.
They would fit right in with Heffner
anticultist said this on June 1, 2010 at 5:46 pm | Reply

Note: This comment is really big so anyone without interest in the details can just check out the short list below.
Hello, everyone. Sorry for my english, I'm not a native speaker. This is probably the first and the last time I'll post a comment here so please just try to understand the message. I was surfing on the net looking for the latest news on TVP World Tour when Google showed me a part of your comments. My comment is big so I'm better tell you immediately that I'm against most (if not all) of your opinions when related to TVP in some way or another (unfortunately). I didn't read all the comments so my apologies if I offended anyone indirectly. Here's a small list that will hopefully summarize every points in which I disagree strongly:
1. Your attack-looking attitude to Jacque Fresco's past
2. Your lack of responsibility
3. Your lack of a highly critical mind (which may well be a consequence of the environment where you were raised)
4. The projection of your own ideas into other things (very dangerous)
5. Regarding the people involved in the production of the Earth 2.0 film
Now, to each point in detail...
1.Your attack-looking attitude to Jacque Fresco's past
------------------------------------
You're completely losing track of what you're doing. It's not investigating to the minor detail the past of Jacque Fresco that will in anyway change the world to the better. No one's perfect, so what? Your attitude reminds me of those political(argh!) challenges where one of the candidates spends a lot of time talking about the other candidate's past. We're not on that era anymore, IT'S OVER. Even if you're not aware of that, we're already in the scientific age, not political age and it's a shame when I see people voting for anything. If for you it's still ok to act like that then I can't stop you and my words are pure BS but don't complain if you can't evolve to what I call "higher level of consciousness", that is, collective consciousness where all the factors that shape our lives are understood with a very high level of precision (not to be confused with any metaphysical definitions).
I learned this from Jacque Fresco's invaluable investigations and other materials listed in the end of this comment and understood that it is a completely different way of living.
2. Your lack of responsibility
--------------------
Jacque actually talked about that in one of the scenes that didn't show up in the movie "Future by design" (these scenes are in the official site of the movie). RESPONSIBILITY, guys. He talked about that and you're already throwing everything over to him. Does Jacque really have to show concrete examples of how the RBE cities would be built? Does he really have to tell us to use this material and not that material to build a house or a bridge or any other structure? Is he a genius that walks around spitting out scientific ideas? NO. I personally think you've completely misunderstood the idea of TVP. TVP is in it's purest form, a plan built up on a scientific basis AND THAT'S ALL. Don't expect Jacque to implement it. It's the job of every people to implement it in some way or another. When someone talks about TVP to other people he's already implementing one of the stages of this plan. Materials to build houses can change. Now we know that the first living artificial cell was constructed. Things change. There must be a clear difference between a plan and its implementation. When Jacque says that an airplane could be built in a certain way, he means exactly that! The airplane could be built that way but it DOESN'T mean it MUST be built that way. Someone said "we at RBEF will soon easily eclipse TVP in terms of meaningful research and science presentations etc.", you're doing nothing more than implement the TVP plan so it won't eclipse the TVP, it's just a part of TVP.
Indeed, nothing can eclipse TVP 'cause as I said TVP is a plan, a method of living, it is NOT an organization or a set of scientific inventions and as such the TVP will always be alive 'cause its very nature accepts change at any time, that is, it's very dynamic but that's another story. Now the focus is responsibility.
When you put everything in Jacque's back you try (maybe unintentionally) to make him look like someone unreal or very far away from the rest of the world's people and that's the wrong path because science, brain research, in particular, has taught us that every living man in the planet Earth has no particular difference in acquiring some or other skill. So please guys, stop putting Jacque Fresco on the top of the highest mountain because according to our own knowledge we all have the potential to be on the top of that same mountain. So once again, RESPONSIBILITY.
3. Your lack of a highly critical mind
-------------------------
Understandably, to achieve a highly critical mind in our current environment is something very difficult to do 'cause our environment is one of complete acceptance (which explains why are world is the way it is). Hopefully, when TVP becomes a physical real society, people will be raised in a critically-minded society. But right now, there are some seeds of its existence and some very good trees, the highest of which are Jacque Fresco, Peter Joseph and other people that completely understand their attitude and also exercise a critical evaluation of their critical attitude (it's important or else we go back to the acceptance age). It's not easy to acquire a highly critical mind but one exercise I do whenever I can is to simply close my eyes and imagine that I'm a recently born baby and then I try to imagine my first reactions to the various actions of my supposed environment. This exercise helps me very much to understand some almost incomprehensible behaviours by some people. I recommend this exercise to anyone. It doesn't hurt. :)
The other exercise is that of Jacque Fresco himself to simply say "I don't know" when you don't know something and start your investigations from there.
All this talk is simply to say that before you start saying something you shouldn't, you should have the most reliable results from your investigations. Only then can something really constructive happen. Otherwise, it's just BS.
Now, like I said, it's very difficult to have a highly critical mind in out current environment and so I maybe sounding like a know-all person but it's not that. I'm just pointing out some flaws in your opinions and in some cases I may indeed become not critically-minded at all (I'm not so sure about that, though), so what? It's a mistake. NOT MORE! I won't die 'cause I wasn't critically-minded enough. I've entered in this new life only a year and a few months ago, I guess so it's not surprising that I still have much (A GOOD MUCH) to learn. The important thing is to accept the mistake IF it is really a mistake.
4. The projection of you own ideas into other things (very dangerous)
----------------------------------------------
This point relates a little to the 2nd (responsibility) and 3rd(highly critical mind).
Someone said:
"I can't help but think that, were Jacques ideas put across in a manner that was a little more scientific and a little less ideological and philosophical this might be a different story. I think that if the people producing the 'Earth 2.0′ film could explain "symbiosis" in a manner that relates to the dynamics of complex emergent systems, which is scientific, they would actually have one up on TVP as far as scientific tangibility is concerned."
What did you expect? REALLY, what did you expect from Jacque's lectures? This is what I'm talking about when I say "projection of ideas" and Jacque also talked about it in the Blog Talk Radio. When the world doesn't know yet about TVP, would you expect Jacque to start talking about all of his inventions in detail? Did you expect him to start talking about ""symbiosis" in a manner that relates to the dynamics of complex emergent systems" when so few people know about symbiosis? When I say "so few", of course I'm taking the WHOLE world as a measure and NOT some or other country.
(BTW, I don't know enough about the dynamics of complex emergent systems, not more than I learned from the movie "Zeitgeist: Addendum".)
You were just tired of hearing the same thing everytime like I am and were projecting yourself into the Jacque's lecture. But your projection only resulted in disappointment, right? Until all the people are FAIRLY educated about TVP, we'll hear the same thing over and over again.
5. Regarding the people involved in the production of the Earth 2.0 film
------------------------------------------------
Now turning to the main point of the blog's post. I personally (and quite critically) stay with Jacque Fresco and I think it was only logical that they stopped contributing to the Earth 2.0 movie. Don't take me wrongly, I know nothing about the movie but from what I've read it looks like it'll be a great movie to watch. My disagreement is the following: why does stress, racism and other "psychological" evils have to be related to spirit or emotion? If we already know from Jacque's own investigations that it's the environment that really shapes human behaviour. The investigations Jacque made really only confirmed what can be stated from intuition. I see no reason why this shouldn't include racism, stress, depression, etc.
When I was reading this blog's post I found the following: "In other words, it is not enough to change social conditions and surround people with humane and intelligently applied technology (Mr Fresco's futurising revolves around this). All that means nothing if people themselves do not change inwardly in terms of their consciousness and their values. No matter how prevalent you make resources, no matter how utopian you engineer culture, no matter how efficient your mag-lev trains are, no matter how free you are of laborious work, people will still remain subject to petty negative emotions and will still have unhealthy relationships with one another."
To the scriptwriter of the Earth 2.0 movie I would say the following: "I'm sorry but you too have misunderstood TVP. Jacque Fresco's idea is not only about maglev trains, etc. And these inventions are NOT the foundation of his ideas. He himself said that TVP is based on the human body and that's the only information we have so far so we can't make further speculation and shouldn't make a projection of our personal ideas unless they are scientifically well founded because that's a very dangerous thing to do as it can lead to very bad results when done without caution. Besides, isn't Jacque always talking about the environment a person is raised in and its influence? How come now you say that TVP is only about technological inventions? These inventions are just a small part of the implementation of the TVP plan as well as the information Jacque makes available about environmental influence so as to make people think about their actions and their relation with the environment they were raised in.
In a TV program, Jacque Fresco once said something like The Venus Project is just an attitude.
Mikhail Botvinnik (one of the greatest world chess players and world champion) once said that a few words are enough to the wise. Maybe this quote is not original but still it has its truth.
By relating attitude to the way TVP is presented, one can only deduce that he was talking about "critical attitude".
Some Extra Points
-----------
"This stubborn conviction that The Venus Project possesses the only practical way to solve the world's problems proved to be so marked that voices became raised."
He's not being stubborn, he's simply come to that conviction after studying all the other possibilities. Come on, he explained that in the movie "Future By Design".
When someone says something that will make him comfortable and thus relieve him, even if only superficially, of a specific problem, I guess this can be called "Verbal Masturbation". Correct me if I'm wrong. Once again, I'm not an english native speaker.
But taking things from there, then yes I still agree with Jacque. Why do we have to invent god? Why do we have to put things in places where they don't belong? Why do we have to assume things? Why do we have to invent spirit and soul? Why do we have to invent luck and not see it as coincidence? Why do we have to disdain environmental influence?
Oh, then again it all came already 'cooked' into our minds (btw, do we have a mind?) from our environment and so it seems like it's built-in into our minds.
"Also for someone who is against woo and spirituality its interesting to note he charged them this and travelled to Cancun to do a 2012 tipping point lecture filled with woo and spirituality."
Oh, didn't he say he went to the Klu Klux Klan (or however it's written) once? It did, right? Besides, TVP is not a part of the conference as such, right? Or else, we would be hearing of the conference or any part of it along with TVP all the time which is NOT the case. So once more, RESPONSIBILITY AND CRITICAL MIND(R and CM). As for the money, tell me of a christian man who doesn't earn money even though jesus himself was angry according to the bible. What about churches? So once again, CM.
So, that's all. I didn't really enjoy the discussion so much because many opinions are of a rather subjective nature and don't reflect reality in any way. I hope I encounter more firm and reliable (that is, scientifically-based) opinions when I come back here or else this may well be my last time.
I really hope I didn't sound like a know-all because no one is a know-all. Anyway, if anyone is interested in where I gathered the information so that I could talk about all this,the information is listed below.
->Lasker's Manual of Chess by Emanuel Lasker(the second world chess champion)
A rather strange book to relate to TVP? However, this book was really the beginning of my real understanding of TVP.
Unfortunately, to get real benefit from the reading, one must know the basic rules of chess and a very passing knowledge of the nature of chess tactics. After that, comes Chess Strategy the really important part of the book and the one that really relates to TVP even if not directly differing only in scope.
->The very famous Zeitgeist movie: "Zeitgeist: Addendum" and the movie "Future By Design"
->Jacque's interviews on YouTube and BlogTalkRadio
->Tony Buzan's books on the way the brain functions (Very simple to understand as they are written for normal audience and not experts).
But really, the book that changed my views and which is the most important material along with The Venus Project was "Lasker's Manual of Chess". Now, that's really ALL. Thank you for you attention.
hangyaku said this on June 12, 2010 at 8:21 pm | Reply

You are rambling and trying to sound smart. You are failing at the latter and are also simply pointing fingers without any time taken actually reading the blogs it seems.
To me you seem like you are just out to ignore the points made in the entire set of blogs, ignore the fact that there is a lot wrong with tvp, and ignore that we here could not care less about tvp anymore.
Me personally I can not be even bothered to respond to you that much because you are just posting a wall of subjective text about some guy, his book, and how we lack critical thinking processes when in fact we have more critical thought processes going on here than in the tzm board. We have all read and watched their materials and all have come away from it with little more than a sense of having wasted a lot of time. Talking about the future and doing nothing about the present is pretty much the movement in a simple sentence. If you choose to ignore that simple fundamental reality it is your hard luck for being duped into believing a fallacy.
anticultist said this on June 13, 2010 at 3:58 am | Reply

So you say our statements our "subjective" and suggest we read a book from some guy who won in some Chess Championship or something? Weird... If anything is "subjective", it would be that book you recommended.
1. You talk about our attitudes being political and the movement itself is political when declaring itself not to be a political movement. How? Three letters: VTV. My head hurts from that alone and he makes my head hurt too. So it's not over, we're still in that era and will always probably be in this era according to the different cultures we have with the world at large. You said it's a shame when you see people vote for anything? Wow, so much for open-source democracy. Your words are pure confusion and no one from the Zeitgeist Movement should be lecturing us on the word "metaphysical" if they can't properly define it themselves.
2. Yes, Jacque Fresco has to throw concrete examples to us to prove that RBE is possible, that shouldn't even be posed as a question as for us to back down from him. Just because he's 94 and calls himself a futurist doesn't mean we should cease questioning the Venus Project, the Zeitgeist Movement and their background. Those who take RBE seriously are already coming over to RBEF and talking about how nothing is going on in the Zeitgeist Movement, so things are eclipsing now but will most likely change when the 3rd film comes out and everyone gets star struck from Peter Joseph but will keep claiming he's not the leader of anything which is a fallacy of itself. TVP is not that dynamic if people from RBOSE and RBEF can poke holes in it. Jacque Fresco puts himself on the top of the mountain with all the titles he gives himself, so we give him the attention he wants obviously. Everyone's brain can pick this up.
3. You lack critical thinking because you are already taking the imaginary leap that RBE will be physical because of him listening to so much of Jacque Fresco. All the real critical revaluations are going on in RBEF really. If a futurist says "I don't know" a lot, then should that person give himself any type of title that will mislead people to thinking he has any credentials of any kind? This is dishonesty and you are encouraging such behavior to continue. You should be specific and say "I don't know about this" oppose to "I don't know", that's actually "dangerous".
4. And we have the "opinion is dangerous" rhetoric. So much for having your own opinions in the future. Now should opinions be used to do technical things and help people when they are ill? No, but to say we should not have no opinion is dangerous thinking in itself. You didn't say this specifically, but I know where you were leaning. If anything, we should just say be more open minded when it comes to technical situations as researching to fix our problems. But you crank it up a notch by saying having your own ideas is "dangerous". If that's the case, using your logic- Jacque Fresco is "dangerous".
5. Your question posing to racism, stress, spirit and emotion was something I'm sure Earth 2.0 is going to address with or without TVP & TZM and you admit to wanting to see Earth 2.0, so I doubt you read all the blogs and comments from Earth 2.0 breaking down why they went their different ways and you also admit to staying with Jacque Fresco? People are going to realize that we have cultural problems and I think this is where TZM & TVP fail in general to understand. Everything to them is scarcity and money- it's not that simple. If he can't work with other people with different takes on this planet and the universe, then he is "stubborn" and you claim he's not.
No one here is advocating making a "god", I don't know where you picked this up from. If anything, we are advocating for people to not follow them blindly. You probably just did an angry post without even reading all the comments that came with this blog before deeming everyone's comments by saying that it's "verbal masturbation" and "BS". The only bad science I see is this long response. You claim to not speak perfect English, but you seem a bit aggressive here.
We have done the research, I went to the Venus Project, I read the material and I watched the films- so think before you speak.
BranManFloMore said this on June 13, 2010 at 4:42 am | Reply

I assume you read the whole comment.
The topics for this comment are:
1. The probable disagreement point
2. What is the real nature of TVP?
3. Regarding the implementation of TVP
4. Where was I subjective?
1. The probable disagreement point
-----------------------
Yes, I didn't read the blogs. But I couldn't care less. My aim is not TZM, it's TVP, the plan called The Venus Project. Maybe the
point where we disagree is where you talk about TVP as an organization and I talk about it as a plan/set of ideas/set of solutions and
nothing else. Indeed, I don't even care about Jacque's technological inventions but this blog does according to one of the recent
posts. In much the same way I couldn't care less about anything that goes around and around the real problem, that is, anything
related to the TVP indirectly and not directly.
2. What is the real nature of TVP?
-----------------------
The Venus Project IS a plan not an organization. Now if I would hear any points regarding the set of solutions that TVP proposes,
saying for example that the intelligent management of the Earth's resources is impossible and then presenting very good scientific
evidences of that, I would be very pleased because THAT makes us step forward. But that's not what's happening. From what I read, it
seems you're mixing both the TVP plan and it's implementation making the TVP Plan sound bad in the light of its implementation. This
attitude is not wrong as a whole but one most focus on one of them or both but not mixing.
3. Regarding the implementation of TVP
-------------------------
Like I said in my comment above, it's not up to Jacque Fresco and Roxanne Meadows to work on the concrete scientific ways to achieve
The Venus Project (don't expect that!), this is probably the ego problem projected by other people into him. The way we think is often
very much rooted in our environmental experiences.
I see no problem with TZM being disorganized, on the contrary, I would be very surprised and would even suspect that something's wrong
if TZM were suddenly launching very big well organized campaigns throughout the world without any explanations about where the money
came from or something like that.
Anyway, the key point is DON'T RELY ON TZM OR ANY OTHER ORGANIZATION TO IMPLEMENT THE TVP PLAN. This is not to mean that you should
throw TZM away altogether.
This may seem contradictory but only because of your treatment of the subject. TZM may be the official activist arm, so what? This
doesn't mean that TZM should be the only active organization and of course it doesn't mean that TVP is bad (point 2 above). Instead of
fighting for one organization, we should be constantly forming new organizations that are conforming to the TVP plan so that we could
in the end achieve our logical result, that is, the construction of the first RBE-city. This is indeed a method used frequently in
computer networks and in the internet structure itself just as an example. This way, things get organized in modules that are easy to
digest instead of throwing everything in the back of a single centralized component(TZM). So the only problem would really be to count
all the people that like TVP and want to get in one of the organizations so that each organization can then have a balanced number of
members. In this way, there's really no super-organization or anything of the kind, even TZM would have to reduce the number of his
members and send the surplus to other organizations. In the end all the organizations would be working towards a single commmon
abstract idea, TVP, with a single common concrete objective, the construction of the first RBE-city.
Your blog's discussion about TZM and its shortcomings is simply predictable and inevitable but don't mix it with TVP because the
latter is just an abstract plan.
Maybe the reason for your blog's discussion is simply once more a consequence of our current political/economical environment where
everything depends on a single organization or political party. However, the time has come for science to take its fair share of
territory and afterwards to take over as the only best method for thinking CURRENTLY available.
4. Where was I subjective?
-----------------
Can you please point out the areas where I was subjective? I think I don't need to say that you should point them out quite critically
and presenting objective evidences that I was subjective.
This is so I can know where I may have made a mistake so that I can correct it and not make it again and also to know if you were
really objective and critical when you said that I was subjective.
hangyaku said this on June 13, 2010 at 8:16 am | Reply

the topics for this reply are
didn't read
don't care
First like already proven you have not read the other blogs and all the replies and said you could not care less, but you are making your entire proposition based upon the limited ammount of posts you have bothered to read. You also do care because you are posting walls of text here to try and affirm your belief structure in a theory because we have decided here to disagree with it.
Therefore because you have not read the entire blogs I have not read your posts, It's a fair balance of me treating you like you are me/us.
You have not critically assessed the entire situation or scenario and jumped ahead of yourself to formulate a conclusion. This is not only ignorant it is erroneous. But I am returning you the favour.
Regarding TVP I do not care... it is a fantasy. RBE is unproven so that's another sticking point. The core ideas may be all nice and rosey but there is no evidence any of it will work, let alone physical proofs.
And as a sidenote: This blog is not a pulpit for you to put yourself on as an all knowing TVP fanatic, we here have all experienced this kind of monolithic thinking. It is harmful in that it does not consider other movements goals, it does not consider other options and wishes to treat an untested theory as if it is a factually evidenced achievement. This is not only wrong and a contemptuous disregard of all real researchers [academic and humanitarian], but it is very arrogant to believe that one man has solved an entire set of problems that have arisen in a global multi cultural/international species.
Jacque is nothing short of an anecdotal guru who makes drawings, there is not a chance on Earth he has even begun to solve all humanities problems, nor has he even come close to solving poverty, homelessness and the environmental issues we all face. Drawings and anecdotes make nice stories but do not solve problems in the present or in real life.
If you read other posts you will see we have addressed the philosophical problems/ logistical problems/ psychological problems/social problems and the guru worshipping problems espoused by this movements followers.
You are under many presumptions about our state of mind, philosophical leanings, it even seems you believe us as luddites and perhaps even status quo thinkers, you could not be any further from the truth if this is so.
Conclusion:
Do not try and put TVP in our face any longer here, we do not want any part of a person trying to convert us into believing in a false remedy.
Do not presume we know nothing about it when we are all ex long time members who have spent over a year of our lives reading all their materials and watching all their lectures, as well as reading their recomended reading list.
Do not demand we give you any evidences we have not already bothered to address, we do not have to prove anything the burden of proof is on TVP to carry out its stated goals, and if it can not do that then its claims are unscientific and empty.
Do not post trying to educate us about a matter we are already aware of and consider ill concieved and a non starter.
Either accept we disagree with your belief... because it is a belief as you have no concrete evidence to show us, or go elsewhere and post walls of pro TVP text there.
anticultist said this on June 13, 2010 at 11:09 am | Reply

The funny thing is, I have been trying to help if anyone tracks what I said in RBEF & RBOSE after I left the Zeitgeist Movement and to be slammed as if I don't know what I am talking about is just insulting on so many levels.
hangyaku:
"I assume you read the whole comment."
Yes, I did and it was a struggle to understand your rant, but I still replied, you have to give me that.
hangyaku:
"Yes, I didn't read the blogs. But I couldn't care less."
Then that's when you should have decided to not post here.
hangyaku:
"My aim is not TZM, it's TVP, the plan called The Venus Project."
They are the same thing, TZM is the activist arm of TVP. I like how everyone in debates try to use them both in a togetherness or splitting them up differently.
hangyaku:
"Maybe the point where we disagree is where you talk about TVP as an organization and I talk about it as a plan/set of ideas/set of solutions and nothing else."
What's the difference? Shouldn't any type of organization like TVP have a plan to save the world?
hangyaku:
"Indeed, I don't even care about Jacque's technological inventions but this blog does according to one of the recent posts."
Again, why are you posting here?
hangyaku:
"In much the same way I couldn't care less about anything that goes around and around the real problem, that is, anything related to the TVP indirectly and not directly."
The more I read from you, the more you don't make sense- at all.
hangyaku:
"The Venus Project IS a plan not an organization."
You repeat yourself again.
hangyaku:
"Now if I would hear any points regarding the set of solutions that TVP proposes, saying for example that the intelligent management of the Earth's resources is impossible and then presenting very good scientific evidences of that, I would be very pleased because THAT makes us step forward. But that's not what's happening."
The burden of proof is with TZM & TVP to begin with and there was blog here already criticizing it's science or lack there of:
http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/04/19/the-science-that-is-missing-and-completely-wrong-in-the-venus-project
But why should we pose our solutions? So you can brag about it to your buddies and the movement, then claim you discovered another solution and crown it as TVP's and TZM's idea? Asking for solutions almost seems like a trap when debating people that are pro TZM or pro TVP. But, there are other alternatives out there that people can look into and have been working on for awhile. Really working on, not just promoting.
hangyaku:
"From what I read, it seems you're mixing both the TVP plan and it's implementation making the TVP Plan sound bad in the light of its implementation."
They are the ones that talk about a test city and then afterwards, a theme park. So I can mix them up if I want to.
hangyaku:
"This attitude is not wrong as a whole but one most focus on one of them or both but not mixing."
That didn't make sense.
hangyaku:
"Like I said in my comment above, it's not up to Jacque Fresco and Roxanne Meadows to work on the concrete scientific ways to achieve The Venus Project (don't expect that!), this is probably the ego problem projected by other people into him."
They pose the solutions for the world's problems, why would you want them to fall back all of the sudden and say "it's not up to Jacque Fresco and Roxanne Meadows"? If they pose a solution to solve the world's problems, they have to constantly step up to present to us why they think so.
hangyaku:
"The way we think is often very much rooted in our environmental experiences."
Not 100 percent true and I'm starting to get tired of that saying as well, I came from a messed environment myself and here I am talking to you about the Venus Project. People can beat their environment influences sometimes and I'm evidence of that.
hangyaku:
"I see no problem with TZM being disorganized"
Really?
hangyaku:
"on the contrary, I would be very surprised and would even suspect that something's wrong"
You got a lot of reading to do here than and some videos to watch.
hangyaku:
"if TZM were suddenly launching very big well organized campaigns throughout the world without any explanations about where the money came from or something like that."
That didn't make sense, it must be your bad English.
hangyaku:
"Anyway, the key point is DON'T RELY ON TZM OR ANY OTHER ORGANIZATION TO IMPLEMENT THE TVP PLAN."
Then why be a member to begin with?
hangyaku:
"This is not to mean that you should throw TZM away altogether."
So confusing...
hangyaku:
"This may seem contradictory"
Exactly. It is.
hangyaku:
"but only because of your treatment of the subject."
It looks like you can't properly defend yourself or the movement, so you have resorted to contradicting yourself.
hangyaku:
"TZM may be the official activist arm, so what?"
You just claim that they are two different things (TZM & TVP), that's what.
hangyaku:
"This doesn't mean that TZM should be the only active organization and of course it doesn't mean that TVP is bad (point 2 above)."
I read it and who said that TZM & TVP were the only active organizations and didn't you say that TVP wasn't an organization?
hangyaku:
"Instead of fighting for one organization, we should be constantly forming new organizations that are conforming to the TVP plan so that we could in the end achieve our logical result, that is, the construction of the first RBE-city."
People have already went independent already and still think RBE is still plausible, so no worries there. As I said in my previous comment, if the people still are serious about RBE in general, then they know where to go.
hangyaku:
"This is indeed a method used frequently in computer networks and in the internet structure itself just as an example. This way, things get organized in modules that are easy to digest instead of throwing everything in the back of a single centralized component(TZM)."
I thought you didn't care if things were organized.
hangyaku:
"So the only problem would really be to count all the people that like TVP and want to get in one of the organizations so that each organization can then have a balanced number of members."
No, the goal is to get people working on right-now solutions so that the transition to any alternative can actually happen in a future starting with a country or two as experiments to see if RBE can work or not.
hangyaku:
"In this way, there's really no super-organization or anything of the kind, even TZM would have to reduce the number of his members and send the surplus to other organizations."
With 400,000 members TZM brags about, you wouldn't call that super? Oh yeah, I forgot- they are in their infancy, whatever that means.
hangyaku:
"In the end all the organizations would be working towards a single commmon abstract idea, TVP, with a single common concrete objective, the construction of the first RBE-city."
Why should all organizations work on something that hasn't been proven to be true without any test? How about pushing the test city first and then see what happens.
hangyaku:
"Your blog's discussion about TZM and its shortcomings is simply predictable and inevitable but don't mix it with TVP because the latter is just an abstract plan."
TZM & TVP has it's own short-comings, that's why this blog exist in the first place. So yeah, I guess it was predictable and inevitable.
hangyaku:
"Maybe the reason for your blog's discussion is simply once more a consequence of our current political/economical environment where everything depends on a single organization or political party."
Now what you are saying is just fluff now.
hangyaku:
"However, the time has come for science to take its fair share of
territory and afterwards to take over as the only best method for thinking CURRENTLY available."
Then work with real scientists, people with actual credentials.
hangyaku:
"Can you please point out the areas where I was subjective?"
Read above, I pretty much point it out to everyone on what you said that didn't make sense and even in the previous comment.
hangyaku:
"I think I don't need to say that you should point them out quite critically and presenting objective evidences that I was subjective."
Then what I said should suffice for you then and I should not expect any more questions and if you do shoot more questions, then you reading anything will be questioned.
hangyaku:
"This is so I can know where I may have made a mistake so that I can correct it and not make it again and also to know if you were really objective and critical when you said that I was subjective."
Oh, I'm sure I was critical and objective. So see, I can make long posts too.
BranManFloMore said this on June 13, 2010 at 2:51 pm | Reply

[quote]What did you expect? REALLY, what did you expect from Jacque's lectures? This is what I'm talking about when I say "projection of ideas" and Jacque also talked about it in the Blog Talk Radio. When the world doesn't know yet about TVP, would you expect Jacque to start talking about all of his inventions in detail? Did you expect him to start talking about ""symbiosis" in a manner that relates to the dynamics of complex emergent systems" when so few people know about symbiosis? When I say "so few", of course I'm taking the WHOLE world as a measure and NOT some or other country.[/quote]
I can understand that someone who is already completely enthralled with Jacques concepts might be willing to overlook the lack of important details for the sake if the overall positive direction. I encountered this same kind of cognitive dissonance myself.
The big problem is that redesigning society for the entire planet is pretty much the most ambitious thing that any one person can attempt to do. Most people who jump straight into TZM I think fail to grasp the implications of all the complexities that this entails. I know I did. I had to read a few books before I started to see some critical things that aren't being taken into account.
What I expect of any individual or group touring the world, spreading glorious ideas about redesigning society is that they at the very least consider the complex dynamics of social systems in their argument. It should be pretty goddamn important right? Only then will they actually be taken seriously by people who have half a clue.
I can't help but scoff every time I hear that old argument about Jacque not wanting to disclose his inventions until TZM has amassed an enormous army of young and impressionable righteous radicals willing to do anything for him. It's hard not to draw comparisons with those people touting "free energy" devices. They never have any definitive proof it works, but they'll convince enough impressionable people to part with some of their money in the guise of an investment.
[quote](BTW, I don't know enough about the dynamics of complex emergent systems, not more than I learned from the movie "Zeitgeist: Addendum".)[/quote]
Oooh okay... I wouldn't exactly consider Zeitgeist addendum to be a lesson on complex emergent systems. I would recommend the book 'The Hidden Connections' by the physicist Fritjof Capra, it's nice and simple as an introduction to the subject. It goes into adequate detail about how complexity theory relates to society, and how we might go about achieving a sustainable future through autopoiesis.
[quote]You were just tired of hearing the same thing everytime like I am and were projecting yourself into the Jacque's lecture. But your projection only resulted in disappointment, right?[/quote]
Right. I'm pretty tired of hearing Jacque say the same things over and over. It's not even like he just talks about the same subjects, he literally quotes himself word for word, over and over. I don't respect that. Not from someone trying to do what he's doing. If that's just me "projecting" then I'm sorry, but it doesn't really make it any better.
[quote]Until all the people are FAIRLY educated about TVP, we'll hear the same thing over and over again.[/quote]
I don't know if you're talking about every person at the lectures, or every person on the planet. Either way, I would be willing to wager that virtually everyone who payed the pricey entry fee to get into the lecture was already up to speed with or in support of TVP. That didn't stop the vast majority of people walking out early though.
And if you're talking about everyone on the planet being FAIRLY educated about TVP, I wouldn't expect Jacque to say anything new any time soon. If ever.
Jellymeat said this on June 14, 2010 at 7:18 am | Reply

I split my comment in several parts for ease of reading.
I'm sorry, I was arrogant in my first (the very first) comment. I apologize for that.
Thanks for enlightening me about that. Also I read the blog and now understand exactly what you're all talking about.
I evolved here. Now, even though I didn't change my mind completely I did change my attitude. From now on, you can expect true attempts at arriving at true criticism.
However, BranManFloMore, you were not objective even if you say you were. I'm sorry but that's the truth. I recognized my errors so please recognize yours.
I came here with a different intention but ended up acting like a TVP fanatic. I do regret my attitude and apologize once more. Still some parts of what I said above are true.
hangyaku said this on June 14, 2010 at 6:37 pm | Reply

That is fine with me I do not mind you having your own opionion here as long as we are allowed ours, plus we do and can see eye to eye about certain things.
I actually prefer that you have taken time and redressed your stance it shows that we are not just a bunch of idiots after you have read our material.
Thanks.
anticultist said this on June 14, 2010 at 6:41 pm | Reply

Now to the point, I just want to say that, yes it's a mistake to mix TZM and TVP. They're not the same thing. TVP is just a set of solutions. When you talk about Jacque Fresco, you're still not talking about TVP, you're talking about its creator and that's all. That's why I expected things related directly to TVP and not around it. TZM is also around it.
So I think the main point of disagreement that I wanted to show since my first comment was the very purpose of this blog. I think there are much better ways of dealing with TZM and TVP's shortcomings then coming here post things (and assume things because in some posts you did assume some things) related to those shortcomings.
hangyaku said this on June 14, 2010 at 6:39 pm | Reply

We were asked and even told to take our questions and research elsewhere. They did not want anyone questioning so directly on their forum so we designed this blog as an external place to host oppositional opinions, research, facts and viewpoints. This allows anyone to come here and decide whether they are truly getting the full picture.
This is why it exists.
anticultist said this on June 14, 2010 at 6:43 pm | Reply

And coming to think of it, isn't TVP the only thing that REALLY matters. So what's all this thing about TZM? Go contact Jacque directly. Just try to tell him what's happening inside TZM and investigate if he agreed with the decisions inside TZM (if he does have any connection at all with the internal organization of TZM). If need be, you could all get together and start a movement for transparency inside TZM. Demand demonstrations of Jacque's concrete ideas about the RBE-cities. However to do that you would probably have to sign a document where you state that the information won't be made public (for copyright reasons). But not stay here like some sad abandoned group looking for any weak point in the enemy.
You claim that TVP is an idea that's not tested but isn't Jacque just protecting himself like he did when trademarking the term "RBE"? I have never seen a good attempt at investigating Jacque's work since Larry King's interview and the movie "Future By Design" and will probably not see it while we're in this capitalist world.
As well there are also reasons for his not constructing any RBE-city yet. RBEF and other organizations want to start now? Fine just be aware of this capitalist environment.
hangyaku said this on June 14, 2010 at 6:40 pm | Reply

TVP is not the only or the most important thing to us.
We prefer other ideas like permaculture, green technology companies, cradle to cradle design, earth ships, charitable means to save lives now, teaching and educating third world communities on food growing, home building, well building, resource management. NOW not when we have 50 million members to build a city in America sometime in the future and when we have enough money after we have made movie and a theme park.... This wont help anyone, let alone people in 3rd world communities dying everyday.
Jacque has not got these designs, and if he does they are not going to be that ground breaking.
And let me say something else, if he has something in his posession that he can use to save millions of lives right now and he is holding on to it rather than giving it to his community to build and improve on to solve problems. Then his moral compass is fucked up because he is allowing people to die and claiming to be humanitarian in the same breath.
anticultist said this on June 14, 2010 at 6:49 pm | Reply

As for the matter about Jacque being a man who solved the whole world's problems and not having any credentials, you're already assuming it's impossible and besides he never said he would solve ALL problems. Anyway, I'm seeing history repeat itself and that's why I wanted you to read "Lasker's Manual of Chess" (not all of it, just the part talking about the emergence of Chess Strategy or Positional Play).
But anyway, I'll just give a brief summary here.
Back in the 19th century, chess was played much like a game of luck. You just waited for an opportunity to checkmate the opponent's king and the game was over.
Quite in the middle of nowhere appeared a man who (after more than 30 years of work) claimed to have discovered the correct method of playing chess and that that method should guide the chess player to ALWAYS find the most efficient course of action in ANY chess position. A guy with n.o c.r.e.d.e.n.t.i.a.l.s saying that? No way that could happen. Alas, the whole w.o.r.l.d was wrong!
Even today, modern chess current scientific basis is still regarded to have been discovered by this man whose name is Wilhelm Steinitz and was the first world chess champion after beating the best players of his era. You may investigate on your own. This was just a brief summary.
hangyaku said this on June 14, 2010 at 6:41 pm | Reply

That is fine strategy but it is not engineering. And chess is merely a game of moving objects about a board with various limited moves allowed [irrespective of its analogy to life], we are not talking about redesigning an entire culture with a game of chess.
The ramifications are stupendous because we are talking about 6-7 billion people, 350 + different languages, god knows how many varying different cultural rules and societal norms.
Then there are different environments are we to assume that jacques ideas will work in the eskimo regions as well as deep in the african savana ?
These are merely a few things I am mentioning I havent even scratched the surface of the logistical issues this mans ideas are going to come under scrutiny for by the mass public and academic fields.
anticultist said this on June 14, 2010 at 6:54 pm | Reply


Anticultist blog comments continued...

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Anticutlist blog comments continued...



Besides that, it's well known that chess is a "remarkable model of life" as pointed out by Garry Kasparov, the ex-world champion.
And the reason for this is explained in that book.
I hope I gave sufficient information so that you can stop disdaining TVP (not TZM), and start another round of investigations before throwing tomatoes.
I hope I made myself clear now. It's the attitude of this blog not the content that makes me not like it so much. Please don't take me wrongly, I'm not a TVP fanatic and I think I demonstrated that above. That's all I have to say and this is my last comment. I really don't have any other reason to stay here. I prefer to focus on positive and clarifying actions rather than keeping bad feelings. It's just like racism and other forms of discrimination. Publicly the people say that we should all be free from any form of discrimination but it's just words. What we need is action (Give scientific education about the human body and apply it to racism and other forms of discrimination) or else there'll always be those hidden groups that can't stand a black guy or a white guy or asian guy, etc. In the same way I advocate that you should be active, getting together, forming a movement, demanding clarifications from TZM and TVP. Active, resolute actions will most likely arrive at the logical result.
Well, it's all then. Thank you for you attention once more and I'm sorry for all the trouble I may have caused.
hangyaku said this on June 14, 2010 at 6:42 pm | Reply

Well take care now.
We are serving a public service here for providing the confronting evidence that is necessary in the scientific method.
An argument is made and a counter argument is proposeed. If the person making the original claim can not use the burden of proof to their advantage and make the argument go away via physical proofs and scientific evidence, then the original claim stands as false until otherwise.
This is the method of science, it is a negative that has to argue against the postiive to fully test its authenticity.
anticultist said this on June 14, 2010 at 6:56 pm | Reply

I was surprised to see you reply so fast to my comments and with new information that I couldn't resist coming back. This discussion is becoming very interesting as I think I've come up with probably the real nature of the problem here. You say that it's the negative that hs to argue against the positive, right? Now, what if Jacque is feeling the same way having thoughts like "I don't have to show them anything. If they want they'll come for it."? A type of ego thinking. It's not difficult to imagine considering that almost all his entire life was dedicated to designing TVP. Then you'd be quite like two magnetic bodies with equal poles facing each other. How do you think about?
hangyaku said this on June 14, 2010 at 7:14 pm | Reply

We catagorically disagree with Jacque on many points as well as have a doubt about his sincerity.
Some of his actions within business practices and his unattestable claims are our reasons. So we would probably be magnetic polar opposites in this respect.
anticultist said this on June 14, 2010 at 8:11 pm | Reply

hangyaku:
"BranManFloMore, you were not objective even if you say you were. I'm sorry but that's the truth. I recognized my errors so please recognize yours."
I pointed out your mistakes, but you didn't with mines- so I was objective. You just come off arrogant and now ignorant. Too many bruised egos from TZM & TVP it looks like. Everything else you say is repetition.
hangyaku:
"And coming to think of it, isn't TVP the only thing that REALLY matters. So what's all this thing about TZM? Go contact Jacque directly."
So you are saying that they are the only alternative? The only solution? More empty rhetoric? You make my head hurt man. I have went there before and I've seen people ask him questions- he doesn't answer them directly, instead he talks about his life story to answer questions. He's not as direct as you think.
hangyaku:
"As for the matter about Jacque being a man who solved the whole world's problems and not having any credentials, you're already assuming it's impossible and besides he never said he would solve ALL problems"
When someone claims they want to redesign culture and make RBE a global economy, then it's implied there rather you realize it or not.
hangyaku:
"RBEF and other organizations want to start now? Fine just be aware of this capitalist environment."
We'll be aware.
hangyaku:
"Anyway, I'm seeing history repeat itself and that's why I wanted you to read "Lasker's Manual of Chess" (not all of it, just the part talking about the emergence of Chess Strategy or Positional Play)."
A book that advocates competition pretty much, right? Isn't that what TZM & TVP is against? More hypocrisy I see.
"It's just like racism and other forms of discrimination. Publicly the people say that we should all be free from any form of discrimination but it's just words. What we need is action (Give scientific education about the human body and apply it to racism and other forms of discrimination) or else there'll always be those hidden groups that can't stand a black guy or a white guy or asian guy, etc."
It's not discrimination, it's people disagreeing- there's a difference, man... I hope these are your last comments. It's funny that you would use that example considering Jacque Fresco's background with the KKK.
BranManFloMore said this on June 14, 2010 at 8:35 pm | Reply

"Besides that, it's well known that chess is a "remarkable model of life" as pointed out by Garry Kasparov, the ex-world champion."
yes, i play chess, its a fine game.
"I hope I gave sufficient information so that you can stop disdaining TVP (not TZM),"
thats not possible, you aren't paying attention. We don't need more information, the information we have is absolute. And objective.
" and start another round of investigations before throwing tomatoes."
All investigations arrive at the same conclusions. You are the one
failing to investigate. We are not throwing tomatoes, we are alerting the public to an evil and scummy charlatans scam.
"I hope I made myself clear now. It's the attitude of this blog not the content that makes me not like it so much."
I agree and I have tried to point to a different way of going about things. Anticultist does a great job on most fronts and I can't tell him what to do. I'd like to see him take it up a notch.
On the other hand, with some people and some situations the only thing left to do is call shit shit and assholes assholes.
"Please don't take me wrongly, I'm not a TVP fanatic and I think I demonstrated that above. That's all I have to say and this is my last comment. I really don't have any other reason to stay here."
wisdom would give a reason that you educate yourself on the truth
of these matters.
" I prefer to focus on positive and clarifying actions rather than keeping bad feelings. It's just like racism and other forms of discrimination. Publicly the people say that we should all be free from any form of discrimination but it's just words. What we need is action (Give scientific education about the human body and apply it to racism and other forms of discrimination) or else there'll always be those hidden groups that can't stand a black guy or a white guy or asian guy, etc."
I agree, there are ways to fight that transcend the whole mess and
ways to fight that play into tit for tat bickering.
"In the same way I advocate that you should be active, getting together, forming a movement, demanding clarifications from TZM and TVP."
There is no need for clarification and they would not conform to
any such demands. Everything is very clear. They are a cult and a dangerous and evil one, and we are the ones taking them to task over it.
"Active, resolute actions will most likely arrive at the logical result.
Well, it's all then. Thank you for you attention once more and I'm sorry for all the trouble I may have caused."
Good debate is why we are here.
prometheuspan said this on June 14, 2010 at 9:41 pm | Reply

"As for the matter about Jacque being a man who solved the whole world's problems and not having any credentials, you're already assuming it's impossible "
No, we can simply observe the fact that any claims made by this
person about knowledge or problem solving are for the most part absurd. Its not assuming its impossible, its knowing what it actually takes to actually do it for real instead of 6 year old make believe style- which is all that TVP/TZM have for "saving the world."
"and besides he never said he would solve ALL problems. Anyway, I'm seeing history repeat itself and that's why I wanted you to read "Lasker's Manual of Chess" (not all of it, just the part talking about the emergence of Chess Strategy or Positional Play)."
I am an expert in game theory and play chess passibly well. I'm not going to read any more books just because you say so. If you have a systems or game theory point to make, make it. If you can't, then thats on you.
"But anyway, I'll just give a brief summary here.
Back in the 19th century, chess was played much like a game of luck. You just waited for an opportunity to checkmate the opponent's king and the game was over.
Quite in the middle of nowhere appeared a man who (after more than 30 years of work) claimed to have discovered the correct method of playing chess and that that method should guide the chess player to ALWAYS find the most efficient course of action in ANY chess position. A guy with n.o c.r.e.d.e.n.t.i.a.l.s saying that? No way that could happen. Alas, the whole w.o.r.l.d was wrong!"
Yes, that can happen.
"Even today, modern chess current scientific basis is still regarded to have been discovered by this man whose name is Wilhelm Steinitz and was the first world chess champion after beating the best players of his era. You may investigate on your own. This was just a brief summary."
Which is irrelevant to Jaques or PJ since neither of them can give
us any kind of proof over their ideals. Aside from the obvious things any high schooler should be able to get right after working the problems for a month or so, nothing they have said or done is revolutionary and in fact everything from Jaques is stolen from Buckminster fuller or the Technocrats. Hes not even an orginal thinker. The only thing he has to offer thats different is his paper models.
Hes not an extraordinary person, hes merely a charlatan and BS artist.
What real and true and good things he might have offered to the world are eclipsed by the damage thats being done to actual real change potentials or energy for a real social movement.
prometheuspan said this on June 14, 2010 at 9:48 pm | Reply

"And coming to think of it, isn't TVP the only thing that REALLY matters. So what's all this thing about TZM? Go contact Jacque directly."
I'm sorry, this idea that you have that the two are different organizations and all is a fine idea, but the simple fact of the matter is that this mess is caused at origination point by JF being a BS artist and not knowing how to direct a social movement to do anything other than listen to him and form a hierarchal system. Jaques formed a hierarchy of two organizations, one on TOP
of the other. This alone is an unforgivable error, because false hierarchy is not democracy.
Everything stems from JFs ignorance and bad judgment and trusting people who are patently evil.
Contacting him to tell him whats going on is silly. If he doesn't know by now whats really going on he would have to be making a choice to stay ignorant.
The grim reality is that hes surrounded himself with scumbag parasite charlatans. Judge people by the company they keep.
Its more than fair. It may be that JF is a great guy, a kind old
fatherly man. But that doesn't matter- the manifest reality of his social movement is an evil, dystopian nightmare- now complete even with is own secret police to match the rest of the fascism.
"Just try to tell him what's happening inside TZM and investigate if he agreed with the decisions inside TZM (if he does have any connection at all with the internal organization of TZM)."
Hes not going to listen. VTV and PJ have his ear. The whole thing would be different if some truly wise people were in his inner circle. There aren't any. In his mind PJ has brought the exposure
he always dreamed of and VTV and Thunder are his voice on the Radio. This is his public relations team. Even if he disagreed with them on some issues, hes not going to confront them or tell them to stop, and hes not going to fire them- he would rather have the fame they provide to him. Hes sold his soul to the devil.
JF is probably a fine person. VTV and Thunder are both patently evil people- period, end of discussion.
"If need be, you could all get together and start a movement for transparency inside TZM. "
And that would have as much success as any other effort. You are talking nonsense, you have no idea how much energy has already been put into trying to help them. I personally was banned and attacked and lied about for trying to help them and did not in fact break a single real rule. In fact i was banned for pointing out that VTV was actively breaking rules, and when i pointed this out both he and thunder proceeded to attack me personally with ad hominems- proving my point.
There is no hope and no chance and no point in trying to make a positive movement inside of a cult run by demonic people.
"Demand demonstrations of Jacque's concrete ideas about the RBE-cities. "
He doesn't have any concrete ideas. Its all fluff and fantasy and paper models.
I on the other hand have concrete ideas and all of this bullshit is a waste of my time- I'm the one everybody should be clustered around and working with not JF or PJ.
I can actually draw my own buildings and have the knowledge to do civil engineering level blue prints.
But i was banned from their site for pointing out that VTV was being a verbal attack artist instead of a moderator.
Nobody inside of tvp/tzm can as much as hold a candle to me. They aren't really even worth discussing or trying to help. If you want to save the world or see an RBE happen in reality, then I'm the one to work with and they are just a distraction.
"However to do that you would probably have to sign a document where you state that the information won't be made public (for copyright reasons). "
I'm willing to share all of my ideas because I have faith that I'm brilliant enough to think up more. I can think up copyrightable ideas all day long. There is no reason to play with third rate ideas from charlatan scammers when I have first rate ideas I'm willing to share for free.
"But not stay here like some sad abandoned group looking for any weak point in the enemy."
We don't have to look, its not hard to see the demon. The hard part is pointing it out to people who want to stay deceived.
"You claim that TVP is an idea that's not tested but isn't Jacque just protecting himself like he did when trademarking the term "RBE"? "
No, its not about the testing of the ideas. I have tested the ideas. Some of them are great and some of them are ludicrous. the only thing that really matters is that they treat people like shit.
All of the good ideas in the world are useless to an evil person.
"I have never seen a good attempt at investigating Jacque's work since Larry King's interview and the movie "Future By Design" and will probably not see it while we're in this capitalist world."
I'm willing to give it a go.
but not here.
"As well there are also reasons for his not constructing any RBE-city yet. RBEF and other organizations want to start now? Fine just be aware of this capitalist environment."
There are no good reasons in reality, and in reality whats seen is that hes full of excuses to do nothing and keep collecting cash.
prometheuspan said this on June 14, 2010 at 10:06 pm | Reply

Stumbling upon this blog
I have stumbled upon this blog quite by accident. I heard an interesting and compelling account by Fresco. He was speaking on his Immaculate Pig experiment. Immediately after hearing about it, I ran a search on google to see if I could somehow locate a document or clips of video validating his claims. I actually had high hopes because Fresco asked the audience in his lecture if they had heard about his experiment. So I assumed it was at least traceable somewhere. The google search turned up nothing. However, I did find it mentioned in the response on this blog site. I first read "Jacque Fresco Social Engineer" then the topic concerning the Zeitgeist movement as being a cult/conspiracists. These first two reads evoked automatic responses in me. I found myself strongly disagreeing with many of the claims and statements that I had read. However, further reading on this topic opened me up more. I must say that my perspective has shifted some as a result of the information I have encountered. Although, I take issue with some aspects. Most of these issues arise from the words of Prometheuspan.
PROMETHEUSPAN
I noticed on a separate topic you said you have 20 PhDs. I'm sure you realize how much of an extraordinary and tremendous claim that is. It is completely beyond belief to the point of absurdity. I admit, I am open minded and will consider almost any claim despite its absurdity, but I am having trouble here. I hope you can understand the location of my point of view. I am unfamiliar with you from the online forums and if you have substantiated your claim somewhere then I commend you. But as of now, with my lack of knowing, I hope you can provide me evidence of some type. Do you have dissertations available? Any other documented works by you or a third party? It would be nice to know.
That is the first obvious issue. The second is related to the first. In the midst of my skepticism of your credentials, throughout my reading I have tried to see if I can sense the scholarly sheen you claim to have. In reading your responses I must say I am disappointed in my expectation of a 21st century polymath such as yourself. I am disappointed in the way you lay your emotions into your statements. From my experience, these tendencies are seldom found in a cool headed sophisticate. (I realize the variance in people, but I am legitimately surprised here.) I am also having a hard time believing that you are a high level new age thinker when you use phrases such as "original thinker" and "Proof of their ideas" and "evil." You should know the ambiguity and vagueness that the notion "original" creates. Also, who really gives meaning to the word "evil" anymore besides joesmoes who live by an obsolete philosophy (religion)? I can't think of a more outdated empty word. I would think you also realize the impossibility of "proof." Any scientist will offer you evidence in its place. Seriously? WTF? "A cult run by demonic people" are you fucking kidding me? Please let it be strictly for humor's sake. Through much of this topic I have gravitated to this blog, but reading you near the end has actually turned me away from this blog again.
Some people on here seem great and decent. But Prometheusspan touches my nerves. You sound like a megalomaniac talking about how qualified and brilliant you are, giving grandiose descriptions of yourself. It makes you sound arrogant, full of shit, and unhinged. The main point is, from how you express yourself, I find it hard to believe you. You do not seem to express sentiments of a polished intellectual. It sounds like a highschooler living a lie on the internet. I'm not trying to insult you. These really are feelings that I am having.
It's hard to believe that you would be found here. I don't mean for this to be an ad hominem circumstantial, but I am sincerely concerned and curious about you. I imagine some of this has been offensive to you. I am simply stating thoughts that I have come to contemplate. If you turn out to be who you say you are, then I apologize and retract any insulting statements I have made and will make. Consider them to have been birthed by my inconvenient ignorance and subjective judgment.
Anyways onto your criticisms of Fresco.
You have three main criticisms
Fresco is an idea thief.
Fresco is unqualified.
Fresco's motives are dubious.
I give some veracity to the logic you are following in some of your criticisms. There does seem to be some compelling evidence in your favor. But you tend to stretch your assumptions and accusations way to far.
First, Fresco is an idea thief.
I am in most disagreement with you here more than with anything else. Exactly what do you mean by he "steals" ideas from other people? The same way America stole the idea of democracy from the Greeks? Is that what you mean? The same way all aeronautical engineers today are stealing the technical ideas of the Wright Brothers? That kind of stealing? I sincerely cannot believe that you think this way. It is completely substandard thinking at your claimed level of intellectual competence.
Fresco stresses a self evident fact: all knowledge is serial. But you may agree with me here and rather get more specific with Fresco's idea thievery. I read (I believe it was you) on another topic the statement that Fresco stole the ideas of B.F. Skinner and used those ideas in his Immaculate Pig experiment and in other ways. The same way B.F. Skinner stole ideas from John B. Watson? And the same way John B. Watson stole ideas from Pavlov? They are handling scientific ideas! You don't see scientists in the scientific community bickering over who's ideas are who's. The result would be stagnation. They make a discovery, and the ideas that derive are passed on to others on a right to know basis.
You might also mention Buckminster Fuller. Rather we can say Fresco "stole" Fuller's ideas or not, we must first realize that in Fuller's work, he has reached logical conclusions about the human condition. Therefore the possibility is open for others to reach the same logical conclusions. Taking that into account, we can realize how minuscule your criticism is. But sure, without a doubt, Fresco was influenced by Fuller. But it's not stealing. Only an angry, aggressive, intolerant, abusive person would make such a dishonest, ridiculous, empty claim.
You have also said that Fresco pretends like he is the originator of the ideas he gives. This is an absurd accusation. I don't know how many times I've heard Roxanne say "not all of these ideas are Jacque's, but what Jacque has attempted to do is design a plan of action and not just talk about it" (paraphrase). Additionally, his reading list is evidence in his favor. He's not trying to hide anything. He simply has the mindset that ideas are public substances that should be accessible to anyone and better off handled separately from the names with which they were originally associated. Associating ideas with names creates cults and ideological mindlocks (as we are seeing with TVP and TZM).
This point of criticism you give, further defies your claim of scholarly intellectual elevation, because it is fundamentally an unintelligent argument-accusation.
Next, Fresco is unqualified.
I think people are a little too emphatic with their criticisms here. I realize the need for some sort of documented credibility. It would be chaos without it. However, I don't completely rule out his claimed studies. My judgment and certainty is currently suspended regarding his history of accomplishments. I'm currently reviewing the articles written about him through the years and comparing the claims he has made and his endeavors that are detailed. I have found some things that would support your criticism, such as his claims to have doctorates in a few fields (psychology for one) from an obscure school that doesn't exist anymore. And the fact that he came under attack a few decades ago regarding his questionable credentials. (Despite all of this, I can sense justifications for it all, as complicated as they may be.) Furthermore, there ARE big problems with academia and credentialism. And there are brilliant people without credentials. But discerning who is who is nearly impossible, especially over the internet (such things must be investigated in person for the eye to inspect the inexpressible subtleties of intelligence). It's a difficult issue through and through. But my certainty is still suspended. There was certainly something to Fresco when he was younger.
Less related to your criticism, I see much of the criticism as being temporal. Fresco has simply gained more notoriety at a bad time. Perhaps if he was forty years younger, people would have less to criticize. The fact is, he's an oldman and an easy target as a result. You can see the cognitive feebleness he carries with him. His age has locked him into delivering a pitch. He delivers the same redundant anecdotes and explanations, just like I see my grandpa doing. However, when he was younger he was much more dynamic, detailed, and expressive with his explanatory language. I am most impressed with what I have discovered in him in his younger days (the little there is available to review). His old age is his major downfall at this point. Does no one else see that? I see it as a central issue here.
Third, Fresco's motives are dubious.
I have a hard time thinking he is pulling a sham. Things can easily be contorted to be interpreted that way, but let's leave that to the conspiracy theorists, whom ironically you categorize as most of the Zeitgeist members, even though you are developing your own conspiracy theory about Fresco. As far as the misconduct at the TZM forums, everyone here sounds like a bunch of unhinged conspiracy theorists. Interesting how possible truths can sound like conspiracies. That is because anything can take on that shade. Conspiracy accusations are on a swivel. Some are true conspiracies, some aren't. Some are simply oblivious developments that get interpreted erroneously.
I have more to say (mostly on the more positive side), but I'll stop here for now. I am not exactly in defense of him. I clearly recognize many of the issues that have been discussed on this blog. But I do sense an abusive bias here (primarily from Prometheuspan) and I can't help but speak on it.
Nate said this on June 16, 2010 at 10:34 am | Reply

hmm conspiracy theorists usually make things up with coincidence and no facts. Conspiracies [which are real] are not conspiracy theories they are two different things.
There is link to a blog discussing this on the right.
Regarding your point 3 have you checked out the venus project is not just non profit ?
anticultist said this on June 16, 2010 at 12:16 pm | Reply

"PROMETHEUSPAN
I noticed on a separate topic you said you have 20 PhDs. I'm sure you realize how much of an extraordinary and tremendous claim that is."
I have specifically claimed to have knowledge equal to that, not
the actual degrees.
I'm an autodidactic speed reader.
"It is completely beyond belief to the point of absurdity. I admit, I am open minded and will consider almost any claim despite its absurdity, but I am having trouble here."
Its as easy to prove as clicking on my name and starting in on a design process with me. If you take the time for right action you will find that I easily prove this every day all day.
"I hope you can understand the location of my point of view. I am unfamiliar with you from the online forums and if you have substantiated your claim somewhere then I commend you."
Follow the links. Any depth perusal of RBEF will more than make
the point.
"But as of now, with my lack of knowing, I hope you can provide me evidence of some type."
Follow the name. Click the link.
"Do you have dissertations available?"
yes, you can also google me, I'm all over the net.
"Any other documented works by you or a third party? It would be nice to know.
That is the first obvious issue. The second is related to the first. In the midst of my skepticism of your credentials, throughout my reading I have tried to see if I can sense the scholarly sheen you claim to have. In reading your responses I must say I am disappointed in my expectation of a 21st century polymath such as yourself."
I'm not really concerned over that.
"I am disappointed in the way you lay your emotions into your statements. From my experience, these tendencies are seldom found in a cool headed sophisticate. "
My use of emotional language does not make me emotional, it means that i find ways to use emotional subtxt to communicate where a more longwinded response would make people groan.
people relate to emotions and emotional subtext, its merely a way
of adding more content in a smaller space.
I'm not here to be square for you. I practiced being a vulcan when i was a pre-teenager. I can be quite good at it.
"(I realize the variance in people, but I am legitimately surprised here.) I am also having a hard time believing that you are a high level new age thinker when you use phrases such as "original thinker" and "Proof of their ideas" and "evil."
I'm not sure what your problem is. Evil is whats against life, change, progress, human evolution, and etc. VTV and Thunder are patently evil people. A lot of people have a problem with that,
and thats why I use those terms. It can not be stated bluntly enough. They are evil people. They are manipulators, con artists,
ad hominem junkies, parasites, obstacles to real change, abusive,
evil people.
"You should know the ambiguity and vagueness that the notion "original" creates. Also, who really gives meaning to the word "evil" anymore besides joesmoes who live by an obsolete philosophy (religion)?"
Sociology and Psychology both use the term when the situation calls for it, and have scientific definitions they have created.
"I can't think of a more outdated empty word. I would think you also realize the impossibility of "proof." Any scientist will offer you evidence in its place. Seriously? WTF? "A cult run by demonic people" are you fucking kidding me?"
Not at all. There is no language to properly wake people up to the actual reality. VTV and Thunder are Demonic people.
"Please let it be strictly for humor's sake."
No, the point should and must be made. Those people are evil and demonic people. Period. They make 20 new victims every week, the net result of them existing is that the world drifts deeper into entropy and chaos. They have taken a potentially good thing and corrupted it into just another evil scummy con game.
"Through much of this topic I have gravitated to this blog, but reading you near the end has actually turned me away from this blog again."
Thats your reactive mind. Not my problem.
"Some people on here seem great and decent. But Prometheusspan touches my nerves."
Good, thats the idea.
" You sound like a megalomaniac talking about how qualified and brilliant you are, giving grandiose descriptions of yourself. "
I tried humility and it got me banned. If we are going to make comparisons, then the comparisons should be real. Compared to me
all of TZM an PJ and Jaques are children playing make believe with paper models. The leadership of the cult under PJ is a leadership
of evil and demonic people.
I think PJ and Jaques are probably over all fine people. Too bad they allow such people to ruin everything.
"It makes you sound arrogant, full of shit, and unhinged."
I'm fine with that if people wake up and smell reality once in while because i drive the point home.
"The main point is, from how you express yourself, I find it hard to believe you."
I don't ask for belief. You can click the link or not. I quit belief when i was 8 years old, I am a man of right action. If you are a man of right action then leave the blog of mere pointing out evil basterds to be evil basterds and click my name, and then we can work together and do what needs to be done to save the humans.
"You do not seem to express sentiments of a polished intellectual."
I'm not here to wear a suit and tie for you.
"It sounds like a highschooler living a lie on the internet."
Thats your own reactive mind- not me- again.
"I'm not trying to insult you. "
Good, i hate to count ad hominems.
"These really are feelings that I am having.
It's hard to believe that you would be found here. I don't mean for this to be an ad hominem circumstantial, but I am sincerely concerned and curious about you. "
I'm often amazed that I'm here as well. Anticultist and I don't agree on everything, including approach to solving TVP.TZM as a problem. This isn't my style. But I decided to allow this site to absorb most of my ...dark side work, rather than pollute other efforts elsewhere.
"I imagine some of this has been offensive to you."
Not yet.
"I am simply stating thoughts that I have come to contemplate. If you turn out to be who you say you are, then I apologize and retract any insulting statements I have made and will make. "
No need for that.
"Consider them to have been birthed by my inconvenient ignorance and subjective judgment.
Anyways onto your criticisms of Fresco.
You have three main criticisms
Fresco is an idea thief.
Fresco is unqualified.
Fresco's motives are dubious.
I give some veracity to the logic you are following in some of your criticisms. There does seem to be some compelling evidence in your favor. But you tend to stretch your assumptions and accusations way to far.
First, Fresco is an idea thief.
I am in most disagreement with you here more than with anything else. Exactly what do you mean by he "steals" ideas from other people? "
Look, I have been saving the humans for close to 40 years now. Full time. This whole TVP cult is a flash in the pan compared to Bill Mollison or Buckminster Fuller or etc. When a person is familiar with the other visionaries and other movements then they have a window on which to see how ideas evolve from place to place and group to group and person to person.
You don't have that kind of window, so you don't have the perspective. I do. nothing Jaques has proposed has been anywhere near original, at least not for 40 years or so.
Even his patents were late and mirror patents by others for similar devices.
"The same way America stole the idea of democracy from the Greeks? Is that what you mean? The same way all aeronautical engineers today are stealing the technical ideas of the Wright Brothers? "
I don't have any problem with stealing all of the good ideas from everyone you can. In fact thats what I do. But trying to pretend that they are original ideas when they aren't is lying to the public.
I credit maslow or pavlov or B Fuller or Bill Mollison. I don't pretend to be better than all of them by saying I never heard of them and using their ideas.
"That kind of stealing? I sincerely cannot believe that you think this way. "
Thats good, because i don't think the way you painted it.
"It is completely substandard thinking at your claimed level of intellectual competence.
Fresco stresses a self evident fact: all knowledge is serial. But you may agree with me here and rather get more specific with Fresco's idea thievery. I read (I believe it was you) on another topic the statement that Fresco stole the ideas of B.F. Skinner and used those ideas in his Immaculate Pig experiment and in other ways. The same way B.F. Skinner stole ideas from John B. Watson?"
No, that wasn't me. But its probably true.
Idea theft only becomes wrong when you fail to credit the original source.
"And the same way John B. Watson stole ideas from Pavlov? They are handling scientific ideas! You don't see scientists in the scientific community bickering over who's ideas are who's."
Yes you do.
"The result would be stagnation."
Very good. But. The result IS stagnation.
"They make a discovery, and the ideas that derive are passed on to others on a right to know basis.
You might also mention Buckminster Fuller. Rather we can say Fresco "stole" Fuller's ideas or not, we must first realize that in Fuller's work, he has reached logical conclusions about the human condition. Therefore the possibility is open for others to reach the same logical conclusions."
Which is also fine, but thats not how Fresco did it. Any student of his life can find that in truth he got all of these ideas from the Technocrats.
"Taking that into account, we can realize how minuscule your criticism is."
Again, Jaques is so ignorant that he stole ideas from the technocrats and didn't even think to make sure whos ideas he was stealing. They aren't his ideas and he doesn't credit others, probably because hes clueless about who thoe original people were.
"But sure, without a doubt, Fresco was influenced by Fuller. But it's not stealing. Only an angry, aggressive, intolerant, abusive person would make such a dishonest, ridiculous, empty claim."
Its stealing if you don't credit them. If you do credit them its called research. The difference may seem easy to wobble, but there is a very fine and very exacting line and Jaques has crossed it.
"You have also said that Fresco pretends like he is the originator of the ideas he gives. This is an absurd accusation. I don't know how many times I've heard Roxanne say "not all of these ideas are Jacque's, but what Jacque has attempted to do is design a plan of action and not just talk about it" (paraphrase)."
Thats fine, but again, they don't even know who to credit.
"Additionally, his reading list is evidence in his favor. He's not trying to hide anything. He simply has the mindset that ideas are public substances that should be accessible to anyone and better off handled separately from the names with which they were originally associated."
Again. Taking an idea and using it is fine. Taking an idea and failing to credit the idea is not.
I also tend to do this a lot in my own thinking. There are a lot of psychologists whose theories I use but names I don't remember. I'd look them up If I was going to discuss those ideas, not try
to pretend.
"Associating ideas with names creates cults and ideological mindlocks (as we are seeing with TVP and TZM).
This point of criticism you give, further defies your claim of scholarly intellectual elevation, because it is fundamentally an unintelligent argument-accusation."
The reality is that Jaques and PJ are ignorant people who steal ideas from other people and pretend them to be their own.
Thats not unintelligent, its a simple statement of cold hard fact.
"Next, Fresco is unqualified.
I think people are a little too emphatic with their criticisms here. I realize the need for some sort of documented credibility. It would be chaos without it. However, I don't completely rule out his claimed studies."
I can, because once you have knowledge there are mistakes real education wouldn't allow you to make.
Jaques playing psychohistorian for instance is a joke.
Or systems theorist. Or games theorist.
What he knows is civil engineering and energy science.
Anything he has to say on those other topics is no more meaningful
than what any layperson has to say on such topics.
"My judgment and certainty is currently suspended regarding his history of accomplishments. I'm currently reviewing the articles written about him through the years and comparing the claims he has made and his endeavors that are detailed. I have found some things that would support your criticism, such as his claims to have doctorates in a few fields (psychology for one) from an obscure school that doesn't exist anymore. And the fact that he came under attack a few decades ago regarding his questionable credentials. "
I only claim virtual credentials. I won't fault anyone for claiming virtual credentials unless they are lying. I will also fault them for claiming real credentials they don't have.
Jaques does both.
"(Despite all of this, I can sense justifications for it all, as complicated as they may be.) Furthermore, there ARE big problems with academia and credentialism. And there are brilliant people without credentials. But discerning who is who is nearly impossible, "
At this rate in this form of communication and using this modus operandi for communicating, thats true. Or, you can test the reality of it by clicking on my name and working a path of right action- which is something that Jaques is not capable of doing.
"especially over the internet (such things must be investigated in person for the eye to inspect the inexpressible subtleties of intelligence). It's a difficult issue through and through. But my certainty is still suspended. There was certainly something to Fresco when he was younger."
I'm sure hes a swell Guy and we would get along fine if he didn't have evil parasites attached to him.
"Less related to your criticism, I see much of the criticism as being temporal. Fresco has simply gained more notoriety at a bad time. Perhaps if he was forty years younger, people would have less to criticize. The fact is, he's an oldman and an easy target as a result."
Thats true but not my issue nor my problem.
Its also true on the other hand that they milk it as him being a wizened old geezer.
"You can see the cognitive feebleness he carries with him. His age has locked him into delivering a pitch. He delivers the same redundant anecdotes and explanations, just like I see my grandpa doing. "
BINGO
"However, when he was younger he was much more dynamic, detailed, and expressive with his explanatory language. I am most impressed with what I have discovered in him in his younger days (the little there is available to review). His old age is his major downfall at this point. Does no one else see that? I see it as a central issue here."
Its an issue certainly,...
I'm certainly aware of it.
"Third, Fresco's motives are dubious.
I have a hard time thinking he is pulling a sham. Things can easily be contorted to be interpreted that way, but let's leave that to the conspiracy theorists, whom ironically you categorize as most of the Zeitgeist members, even though you are developing your own conspiracy theory about Fresco."
For the record I also think 911 was an inside job and the the government assassinated kennedy. A conspiracy theory is not a bad thing if its backed by the evidence.
"As far as the misconduct at the TZM forums, everyone here sounds like a bunch of unhinged conspiracy theorists."
okay, I'm starting to chaffe at your communication choices.
"Interesting how possible truths can sound like conspiracies. That is because anything can take on that shade. Conspiracy accusations are on a swivel. Some are true conspiracies, some aren't. Some are simply oblivious developments that get interpreted erroneously."
yes, and most conspiracy theories as such are bunk. But not all.
"I have more to say (mostly on the more positive side), but I'll stop here for now. I am not exactly in defense of him. I clearly recognize many of the issues that have been discussed on this blog. But I do sense an abusive bias here (primarily from Prometheuspan) and I can't help but speak on it."
lol.
prometheuspan said this on June 16, 2010 at 11:24 pm | Reply

what I find interesting prom is this guy accuses you of having emotional subtext and disputes your scholarly wisdom due to the inherent use of emotional content. Then not many paragraphs below this he is then using the very same emotionally charged subtext and curse words himself, as if to debunk his own point and his own academic veracity [clearly he did not follow his own guidelines to observing intelligent scholars].
Me personally I dont give a shit if someone swears it does not indicate any level of intelligence at all. The content is what indicates the intelligence.
anticultist said this on June 16, 2010 at 11:36 pm | Reply

I don't claim to have 20 PhDs. Like I said, I realize the variance in people and their capacity to not seem as they are.
Bear in mind that I did not argue against the use of emotion, I argued against the way it was used (i.e. using emotionally charged words such as "evil" and "demonic"). I realize the impact those words have, but to many people, that kind of terminology sparks doubt, because those words are often used for less sophisticated purposes. (It reminds of people throwing around words such as communist, fascist, etc., that kind of empty rhetoric.) All I'm saying is the degree of emotion (and its combination with ridiculous words) was too unjustified in my mind. That is why he received the response he got.
Nate said this on June 17, 2010 at 1:54 am

Fair enough Nate I am sure prometheus is a big enough man to accept it too.
anticultist said this on June 17, 2010 at 2:20 am

"Look, I have been saving the humans for close to 40 years now. Full time."
Why can't I get over this statement?
"nothing Jaques has proposed has been anywhere near original, at least not for 40 years or so."
Why does it have to be original? This isn't art.
"Again, Jaques is so ignorant that he stole ideas from the technocrats and didn't even think to make sure whos ideas he was stealing. They aren't his ideas and he doesn't credit others, probably because hes clueless about who thoe original people were."
I assume you mean he doesn't give credit in his own literature? If that's what you're saying, then yeah, that is a problem and a major fault of his.
"The reality is that Jaques and PJ are ignorant people who steal ideas from other people and pretend them to be their own."
I don't know about that. PJ cites a lot of sources in a more academic way (sort of). Fresco was just too goal-driven to care about the academic process. It's slightly understandable.
"I will also fault them for claiming real credentials they don't have."
Again, it might be slightly understandable. I would guess that he did this to gain entry into respected academic circles. Of course it didn't really work. He's not a good researcher, but he is a great conveyer of ideas (in his early days). That deserves just as much respect.
Nate said this on June 17, 2010 at 2:21 am | Reply

Peter Joseph is not a good researcher either if he has people (admitting to hire) doing the research for him for the director's cut from his first film. But you know, the films are not the movement [sarcasm]. If anyone has empty rhetoric, it's definitely TZM- hands down.
Someone that lectures should do good research before lecturing, if they can't- then they are not good conveyers to begin with because they are conveying generalizations. You have to be a good researcher in order speak on such information like this. For you to admit that he's not a good researcher when he is a futurists just shook me up there. And you know... I can see the novelty debate coming along here and it's going to be a waste of my time, but I have been there and Jacque Fresco has books everywhere. And I have seen the difference between his booklist now and what he use to have in the past as recommended reading. So people will speculate and because of that, I see why people question if these type of actions have taken place. Check out the ES blog and you'll see what I mean:
http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/04/14/tvp-ex-1970-1980s-member-speaks
BranManFloMore said this on June 17, 2010 at 2:41 am

yes, i did notice the hypocrisy. No, I wasn't going to comment, since i figured that would be redundant.
I try to bear in mind what things look like to third parties. I think any third party is going to see this guy raise a bar and then stumble into it, instead of jumping over it.
Whats funny is that to you and me both, it doesn't matter. Language is a tool I use and I reserve the right to use that tool
to communicate how i see fit.
I extend that right to others, including others who may wish to exercise it to argue against me.
Over all, its a passable attempt with content at making an argument.
It just doesn't actually score, because from square one it falls prey to failing to live up to its own projected standards.
:)
prometheuspan said this on June 16, 2010 at 11:46 pm | Reply

"Again, it might be slightly understandable. "
overall as i have said, I have little argument with Jaques or PJ.
They are transparent to me, and they mean well whilst having human foibles.
VTV and Thunder and Azzie on the other hand are simply evil people.
the end.
Now, how do we get from well intentioned Jaques or PJ to these evil people?
Well, the answer has to be at least somewhat that PJ is so incompetent that he can't tell whats what and whos who.
That is his fault.
If I could sit down with him or Jaques, I am sure we could all come away with a great game plan to save the world.
But I can't, because between me and them are these evil "flappers".
It makes no difference how well intentioned people are if their movement as a matter of fact only actually harms other people and any chance for social evolution and change.
I have plenty of sympathy for Jaques claiming education he doesn't have. I'm ten times more tempted for good reasons than he is.
But unlike him I know that in todays world you can't get away with those kinds of lies.
I tell the whole truth and nothing but.
(I like to think I'm also just more ethical, but, on the other hand I have been tempted on occasion.)
I have all sorts of sympathy for that- for knowing you know what you know and wanting to get people to listen and then finding they
won't unless your credentialed. Yes, thats harsh.
I feel for them. But I also know whats up.
and tvp/tzm is thus a cult, not a social movement, because it can't move, and its anti social.
I'd love to help them fix that problem and I did try to help them.
I banned for pointing out that VTV was attacking "Jeremy."
The end.
Now I have to get up and over this obstacle in order to get real change and real social evolution going.
prometheuspan said this on June 17, 2010 at 4:23 am | Reply

all you need do is forget them crooks and go see peter whitlock channel where the solution is 100% free and all you need do is learn then help have them built anywhere on the planet! You will find many rich people willing to fund the materials as part of the "great repent" Yu can ask right strait out for a millionaire or billionaire to step forth and one will... you just build and they fell they are not being cheated and same for you. learn the keys to the seals and use them and your glory will be in the history books.ignore You will find that to ask the world to build my cities will get responses fast and efficient because they too want to save lives and make stable any population anywhere!
Prophecy say i won in advance...just build what I say...i am the real Peter with the real seals and real keys to them...do as i say and be a hero! Follow them and be a zero, a victim!
Peter said this on September 11, 2010 at 8:01 am | Reply

sorry about the type o's..too sleepy
Peter said this on September 11, 2010 at 8:04 am

[...] Earth 2 movie Fails [ For the Venus Project] and creators cut Fresco loose ! [...]
Zeitgeist Blogs: Zeitgeist is a Mind Heist « Zeitgeist Movement Exposed said this on November 10, 2010 at 9:12 pm | Reply

a thoughtful article.
the New World Order has you... said this on April 20, 2011 at 4:21 am | Reply




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Open Source Ecology review TVP & TZM April.14.2010 33 51

http://web.archive.org/web/20110828001156/http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/04/14/open-source-ecology-review-tvp/



My reactions on viewing the Zeitgeist orientation video.

Scientific method: the video and web sites talk a lot about scientific method, but as far as I can tell, these people aren't actually doing any science. They aren't forming hypotheses, designing experiments, collecting data and forming conclusions. There's no list of open questions and proposed experiments. The video is just assertion piled on top of assertion.

Computer-assisted government: why don't they have some software that I can download that will help me make better decisions? Seriously. If they don't have software that will help one person make better decisions,why would I believe that computers can run a city or a planet?

Lack of a prototype city: if these people believe that a society that doesn't use money can build cities, they can't exactly use lack of money as an excuse for not having built their prototype after 30 years.

Update:

Let me make it clear that I am not criticizing the vision of a society without money. Yes, of course, we come in peace, we share many of the same values. I'm criticizing the lack of tangible progress. There are many open source success stories: Linux, Wikipedia, RepRap, Arduino, Life-Trac, Liberator CEB press, etc. The Venus Project has accomplished... what?

Someone points out that a project the size of a city takes a while to get going. Yes, of course, but that's not a feature, it's a bug. The vision is too grandiose, too top-down. Better to work from the bottom up. Walk before you run. Build a village before you build a city. Build a house before you build a village. Try different things, make mistakes, learn from them.



Kubuguy, thanks for the additional info. I will do some reading.

My reactions were based on 90 minutes of viewing the orientation video... via a link you provided. As far I could tell from the video, TZM is a monolithic organization, with a uniform belief system, and Peter Joseph is TZM's official spokesman. The Venus Project also seemed to be organized around the work of one man.

Now you tell me that TZM is decentralized and there is room for a spectrum of opinions. I'm shocked, SHOCKED I tell you! Pleased, but shocked.

You might avoid misunderstandings like mine if you explain the situation to people before they watch the video instead of after.



Social organization is an empirical problem. You try different things and you see what works. Alternatively, you look at existing communities.

ZM treats social organization as a theoretical problem. JF spent the last 30 years designing a system, now PJ is telling everybody how great it is. Nobody is doing experiments, nobody is collecting data.

I suspect that different people will prefer different forms of organization. The ZM approach is top-down and doesn't accomodate this. The open-source approach is bottom-up and does. Direct democracy vs. contractual voluntary association? Not even a problem. The DD advocates set up DD communities and the CVA advocates set up CVA communities. Maybe one works and one doesn't. Maybe they both work. Doesn't matter.




This all seems rather disingenuous. If my reaction to the orientation video had been very positive, would you be saying "wait, not so fast, don't jump to conclusions, this is not a monolithic group"? I don't think so.

Anyway, instead of arguing that there's no such thing as a monolithic group, why not point me to a TZM video by someone other than Peter Joseph? Or maybe you could describe a few areas where TZM people disagree with each other. Better yet, tell us where YOU think Peter Joseph is wrong about something.


http://factorefarm.org/content/zeitgeist-venus-project-vaporware#comment-412

The usual hound dogs & gatekeepers from TZM arrive to dispute it.

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Anticultist blog comments


"" I suspect that different people will prefer different forms of organization. The ZM approach is top-down and doesn't accomodate this. The open-source approach is bottom-up and does. ""
Usually TVPers respond to this with something like
"Oh but it doesn't have to be like that, it can be different, J's vision is not final, so you are not proving anything"
But then come JF, PJ, RM and say "A RBE must have no money, must have a central hub and all information goes there, so then we come to the best solution, etc." And of course, no one is (supposedly) forced to follow the best found solution, BUT !
There is no need for centralized solution finders when we already possess a great tool called the INTERNET. And OPEN-SOURCE software to help us find the best solutions.
It seems to me that these guys are infatuating themselves with some ideas which are cute, but worthless.
People who do technical work (VertiFarm, Earthship, DIYers, etc) don't look down on society and say it needs to be redesigned, they improve it bit by bit.
But of course, TVP is like politics, let's vote something new, turn everything upside down and forget the ongoing work of the guys who are trying to thoroughly detail and solve the individual problems.
I see reforestation activism, renewable energy research in universities, voluntary farm building in vietnam and other countries like it, devoted open source teams giving you access to what you need, and on and on, but the stance of TVP/TZM is that these individual groups do not address the underlying issues.
Well.... Lack of forests means lack of clean air, and a reason for people to go crazy or die, or both. Lack of electricity, lack of food, more reasons to wage war. Lack of open source software means no more free tools and information, a problem for people who want to help but don't have the money.
When they are gonna be able to breathe clean air without forests, power their house with nothing once the oil becomes too difficult to extract, feed people in poor countries without the help of those who built the farms in the first place, and find a way to design their shiny toys without the help of open source communities and without money, then they can say critics do not understand why TVP is so great.
Until then, if you're someone who wants to do something good, i suggest you stop looking up at online philosophers.
mickeymouse2012 said this on April 14, 2010 at 7:10 pm | Reply

I agree mickeymouse2012 the fact that Peter still espouses the delusional idea that we should be abandoning all of the worlds cities to live in some magical fairy land based on 1950′s World of the Future with fluffy little bunnies and fuzzy elves.

Shane Nolan said this on April 15, 2010 at 10:47 am | Reply

(cont)... still boggles the mind
Shane Nolan said this on April 15, 2010 at 2:05 pm | Reply

Technocracy criticized the Zeitgeist Movement too:
http://tinyurl.com/technocracyontzm
The confusion continues.
At least OSE are getting their hands dirty and doing something. They make TZM look lazy.
And I see some of them saying that TZM is a growing open-source movement, man... RBOSE wouldn't have formed if that was the case plus their unprofessional behavior to add in. You got to love the dishonesty coming from them and they expect people to collaborate with them? They can't be serious.
I think everyone should go their independent routes, because just trying to understand TZM alone is mission impossible itself. That's coming from someone that has been as patient with them as possible. Seriously.
BranManFloMore said this on June 6, 2010 at 9:23 pm | Reply

[...] Open Source Ecology review TVP & TZM [...]
Zeitgeist Blogs: Zeitgeist is a Mind Heist « Zeitgeist Movement Exposed said this on November 10, 2010 at 9:11 pm | Reply

There are computers that makes decisions, they are partly being used at the stockmarkets do decide which stocks that the brokers should buy or sell. And these are just the first or second gen of decision-making sofware. they requier a lot of computer power, but if you have a nice Linux cluster of say, 30 pc's, you could drive it from your own home, if you can get hold of a copy that is...;)
Håkan Sundberg said this on February 8, 2011 at 6:08 pm | Reply

Now thats what im talking about, no sceitific proof whatsoever. I never could get a response of why no real proof. Not one peice of info about people working together. the whole world needs to be a part of the movement. Well dont that sound just like Christianity. LOL!
Glenn Poston said this on March 23, 2011 at 10:22 pm | Reply




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TVP ex 1970-1980's member speaks April.14.2010 34 52

http://web.archive.org/web/20121025054824/http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/04/14/tvp-ex-1970-1980s-member-speaks/


I have compiled all these comments made by Euripide Sneed from the Earth 2 blog, where they appeared here and gave us an insight into what it was like being a member during the 1970′s-1980′s, this is for ease of reading. More comments and information may very well arrive, and be added should they feel the inclination.


Welcome to the club. Literally hundreds of people gave their blood, sweat and tears, since the 1960's, to help make Fresco's dream possible. Once these followers are parted with their money, their services are no longer required, and they are dumped, and he leaves town. Marxism (by any other name)cannot tolerate spiritual beliefs, because you need to break a few eggs to make an Omelette. Just ask Pol Pot or Fidel Castro. Ask Fresco where the money came from to purchase the Venus Property in the first place. And what happened to the investors who never got their money back. Fresco's favorite line is "The Venus project IS NOT a DEMOCRACY". It's his way or the highway. Imagine if he was in a position of power where he could "really" do some damage! It's great being an avowed Atheist, morality is "relative" regardless of who is hurt in the process. The rules of morality are made up as you go along. That being said, his reading list is still well worth looking at, artistic drawings have their limitations without foundational information.





In reference to your question, I don't want to elaborate to the point that it sounds like I want to bash Fresco. Because, in fact, there are many worse people in this world. And, he lives a life of frugalness, having survived the depression. So, those of us who invested in his projects do not have the interest in ever taking him to court, because he has been and always will be a "grandfather" figure to us. That being said, "fool me twice, shame on ME". He doesn't solicit money from people to buy fancy cars (as do some religious leaders), almost ALL the money he receives goes back into his art work, and toy models. So, under the circumstances, I gave him a "pass" for his actions, a long time ago, and in fact learned a lot from his various lectures. I learned to think straight, and corrected many of my metaphysical "assumptions" about the universe. But, like many eccentric "creative types", he has a sort of tunnel vision when it comes to remembering who his friends and supporters are. You're IN today, OUT tomorrow!

In the 1970s he was having regular membership meetings at his home in Miami. With a weekly group of maybe 10 to 12 followers. Up until then, everything was only on paper, with "nothing" to show the rest of the "non-believing" world. So, the group (called Sociocyberneering at the time) signed an agreement to purchase some land (near Miami where they all lived) and they agreed to make regular monthly payments until the land was paid off. It would take several years to complete the payoff. The group had the vision to "live the dream" in their own little dome community. The community was to be self-sustaining with agriculture and other manufacturing products Fresco had designs for. They even donated funds for some small dome molds, which could be used for acquiring government grants. The group made regular payments, many of them making only minimum wage (most of members were low income, well meaning do-gooders). Whatever it took to make the monthly payments was done, even if it meant skipping a few meals a week. The goal was to show the world "what is possible with futuristic science on your side".

One day, without discussion, the land that was purchased was sold. A new "legal entity" was created in the middle of nowhere (Venus), so that the investors would not be able to live there and commute to work at the same time. The new entity was called the "Venus Project". The proceeds from the sold land was "funneled" into this new entity. The original investors in Sociocyberneering would have no "standing" or voting rights in the new entity. There was no other reason to change legal entities except to protect the funds from those who had built up the fund. If the goal was just to locate a nicer neighborhood, the Sociocyberneering entity could have continued to have control and voting rights of the new land. But, not so if you "dissolve" (under the attorney's advice) the first entity, and create a second entity. Those members who were upset about this surprise move were assured that they were still welcome to "visit" the new entity and new land "anytime" they wanted to. But, they would have NO voting privileges as to how the money would be spent with the new entity. In the beginning, the 2 hour drive from Miami was tolerated, just to "visit" the new property. But, in the end, most of the investors cut their losses, and stopped contributing further, and said goodbye to any money they had deposited. The bottom line is that we are talking about events that happened over 30 years ago. Some of the members of the time are no longer alive. Most have all lost contact with each other. But, it is safe to say, in spite of all the financial disappointment that happened, most if not all the former members would like to see Fresco succeed. BUT, they prefer to admire him from "afar", in the same way you can watch and enjoy a "Kung Fu" demonstration on stage, without having to jump on stage in the middle of all the "Kung-Pow" and get kicked by a "well meaning" performer. I would recommend anyone who has not heard any of his lectures to do so. He is one of the best of what he does, namely, explaining "systems approach" methodology to those students who never heard of the phrase. And also he helps people understand "TEC" (total enclosure) systems, as found on cruise ships, and applied to small futuristic communities. I'm sorry I have no other specific details about what happened 30 years ago. I am a strong believer that people should "experience him" directly, on their own terms, and determine yourself what he is or "is not" in terms of his personal behavior. I was particularly moved by your "experience" at the beginning of this blog, and how your well meaning words just "bounced off" him. But, to be honest, if I were to meet Einstein in person, I can't guarantee that he would be any easier to deal with on a "human" level. "Uncommon people" many times cannot relate to us "common people", and maybe it has always been that way.....




As far as Venus Project is concerned, there is no voting membership that I know of. Just Jacque. That was the main advantage of dissolving Sociocyberneering, no more "votes" to contend with.

In reference to your other point about forgiveness, I must confess that I WAS distressed while it was all happening, and it DID take several years to cool down. The same is true for the other members. It is "not" his goal to bite the hand that feeds him, it just happens with him "naturally" out of habit. He is focused on the goal, and not the intricacies of "give and take" which is all a part of working with a team. He works best when he is alone, period. He just wants someone to hand him a billion dollars and "shut up", and not ask any questions. Consequently, none of the multiple millionaires who were introduced to him in the past, by some of his supporters, were interested or enticed to "buy in" to an "offer/relationship" like that. It's almost funny that he seems "surprised" that no one in a position of responsibility wants to just "dump" a bag of money on his lap, with no questions asked. We try to explain to him that this only happens in the movies, but he is never amused by this observation. Anyway, keep up the good work, and I will enjoy reading your updates in the future...

There never was any classroom. People sat on a couch in his living room at the peak of the membership in Miami. Over half the pictures in the video, including classrooms, is "stock video" that the film maker took from some video library. The people you list were all volunteers who tried to contribute to his cause at one time or another. They come and go like a revolving door. They come in "excited" and "inspired", and leave "despondent", knowing that the organization is about teaching, but not necessarily about "team work" and "doing". It has always been a one man show, and always will be. I compare it with "grade school". It's a "crucial" experience towards teaching us the 3 "R"s, it prepares us for the real world or college, but the course is fixed and limited. You will never learn Calculus, Chemistry or Physics there. It's a nice place to visit, "but I wouldn't want to live there" as the old saying goes. But, I must stress that it is up to the individual, to decide when they have had enough. Some people have had enough after 1 lecture, others continued to learn for several years before leaving. 90% of the lecture content has not changed since the 1950's. And that's OK. That's what grade school is about. Should we stop teaching basic math in grade school simply because it was taught 100 years ago? No, children still need to learn 1+1 before they move on to Calculus. We can't start children on Calculus (at least, not with current technology). We need Fresco to pull us out of the "mental mud" that society exposes us to as children, in that he teaches us to think more clearly, with our "brains full of mush". BUT, then that moment must come, and only "you" will know when that time "is", and you are told "time for you to leave" (either by Fresco, or your inner voice)....



for many adult minds, there is no lightning bolt listening to Fresco. Fresco's entire "lecture circuit" is a combination of several influences in his life: The (ancient) movie "The shape of things to come" (Wells), The Technocracy Movement, The works of BF Skinner, The works of Buckminister Fuller (modified by Monolithic Dome concepts), and books such as Tyranny of Words, The Natural History of Nonsense, Science & Sanity, Mechanistic Conception of Life, Pavlov, Prefabrication theory using space age plastics, and finally "Engineers & Price System" (Veblin). There are 100 more books, but these are the core concepts of his lecture circuit. Many students graduating high school today or in College will probably "never" read most of these books in their life time. And they probably have no desire to. So, a lecture from Fresco puts all these concepts together in just a few hours. But, I agree, it is best to read the books directly if you have the time.



The property near Miami was was purchased for approximately $16,000, which was a lot of money in the 70's, when people were trying to live on minimum wage. I don't know how much it was sold for, since it was still undeveloped. Probably approximately the same price. The property in Venus was approximately $40K, because it was more acreage. I believe that the property in Venus is under his own name so that there is no distribution requirement if he sells the property. When he sold his home in Miami for over $100K (or maybe $150K?), there was enough money to pay for the Venus property, with the help of the Sociocyberneering funds. So, he did put up a few buildings on the Venus property which would serve as his new home. But, the value of all the buildings "combined" would be under $100K because they are sort of made of metal and gunnite, as opposed to more expensive materials like bricks or lumber. So, the asking price of the land is a little high compared to values of the surrounding acreage. Yes, I had read someplace that some politicians in Ecuador invited them to live there at their own expense, and maybe help with tourism. It is possible they may have even offered him a grant to build some safer housing that could survive disasters of weather or earth quakes. But, I've been out of the loop for many decades.




The housing prices in Miami have always been higher than the "Florida" average. There is a lot of unused land in Florida. A chart of "Miami" that only goes back 20 years gives a closer approximation, as follows: http://mysite.verizon.net/vodkajim/housingbubble/miami.html

The home was actually a 2 bedroom, in a borderline neighborhood. It needs to be understood that he never "made it big" doing what he does. He mostly was, and is, unemployed. His income from giving lectures at his home was only $10-$20 per lecture, 2 or 3 times a week. Roxanne, being an unemployed art major, helped a little with the rent. But, no, I don't envy his current financial status. This recent "lecture circuit" is probably more lucrative than anything he has done before. But, I have NO idea what his going rate is these days to be a "guest speaker", plus per diem? But, it definitely helps to pay the bills, compared to what he was making doing "odd jobs". Now, if he actually gets $700K for that land, I will change my opinion about him being poor. That would make a nice nest egg. But, I think the actual value might be closer to $200K-$300K, if they can get that much.



Id say that they are doing OK, since the land is already paid for with no mortgage.



It was very common to bring a tape recorder to the lectures. Sometimes 1 person would bring one. Other times several people would bring one. Admission varied between $1 per lecture session to $3 per lecture session depending on what year it was. In the 70's it was $1 per session, in the 80's it was $2-$3 per session. It was affordable to most people, and if they couldn't afford it, they could attend any way for free. Part of the fun was just meeting some of the other attendees after the session, and going to a restaurant for a snack. I haven't heard the quality of the sound, but normally the microphone was only a few feet away, since it was in a small living room (informal). If the price is high, you may be able to get a used copy on eBay for a few dollars. The lectures are well worth listening to if you never heard them. Especially if you don't want to read the hundreds of books that some of the information is extracted from. The problems came when we started to invest in the "futuristic commune", living like Captain Kirk, with beds that make themselves, and robots that would plant the crops, harvest the crops, and using only organic pest control and fertilizers. In those days organic foods were expensive, so it would be great to get it at a low cost through automation. Star Trek was big in those days, and most of us would pay anything to live that life style immediately, rather than wait 100 years when the rest of the society would have it. But, it wasn't meant to be, as you know....



Some of my statements were tongue in cheek. I definitely wasn't there in the beginning. Just mid-seventies forward. He began many of his public lectures in the 60's. I'm not really worried about his return to public speaking. I believe it is a temporary thing. Eventually, things will gradually begin to implode as the lecture audience begins to thin out. The cult following will probably continue to market his materials even after he retires. For example, his first book "Looking Forward" now sells from $200-$400 each. I remember I had 10 or 20 copies, years ago that were $6 each. But, they got lost over the years...




Anyway, part of being a fanatic is to NOT listen to reason, to get angry with friends and family who are trying to warn you that something is wrong with this guy. But, like "religion", when you fill one "crutch" (religion) with another crutch (promises for tomorrow), in the end, you are still with a "crutch". You defend your crutch "to the death" (symbolically), imperfections and all.

Then when you finally find your pockets empty, and the "crutch", cheating on his first girlfriend, with the second girlfriend (Roxanne), the light goes on that you are dealing with "two" people. One "on stage", one "off stage". But, in fairness, isn't that true for all "performers"? It's part of the "gig" you are trying to "sell" for your "bread and butter".



While you are looking at the left hand, the right hand will getcha. Just follow the money.... Ciao...





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Anticultist blog comments


Roxanne made a reply on VTV's blog calling this person above a liar, interesting lets see what an external party has to say about that shall we ?
Well, lets take a look at some things:
Jacque and Roxanne quoted on VTV's blog:
"We now have just compiled 15 of these lectures on three 5 CD sets and on almost all of them you can hear Jacque at the end say it is $3.00 for non-members and $2.00 for members of Sociocyberneering not the $10 -$20 this person claims Jacque charged. This helps to show you what this person says below is utterly false in regards to what Jacque used to charge"
This is the claim they are talking about:
" His income from giving lectures at his home was only $10-$20 per lecture, 2 or 3 times a week. Roxanne, being an unemployed art major, helped a little with the rent."
But wait, check out one more thing Euripide Sneed said:
" Yes. It was very common to bring a tape recorder to the lectures. Sometimes 1 person would bring one. Other times several people would bring one. Admission varied between $1 per lecture session to $3 per lecture session depending on what year it was. In the 70's it was $1 per session, in the 80's it was $2-$3 per session."
When he said "$10-$20 per lecture" what he must have meant was that Jacque Fresco made $10-20 total from the 10 or so people who showed up and paid $1-$3 each. They have taken his words out of context. His actual claim about the cost of admission is $1-$3, the same amount that they state, there is no discrepancy.
Jacque and Roxanne are the ones who are lying here. Not Euripide Sneed.
anticultist said this on April 14, 2010 at 4:05 pm | Reply

You know, I posted the above comment on VTV's blog as well and he deleted it. What a wiener.
http://v-radioblog.blogspot.com/2010/04/reply-to-euripide-sneed-on-anticultist.html
Sky said this on April 17, 2010 at 7:08 am | Reply
Yes. Thanks. Absolutely, that is what I was saying.

In the first instance I used the word "income" of $10 to $20 (depending on what year it was because the fees changed). I did not say admission fee. I was NOT saying he made a lot of money, I was saying he made very little money. Geeze!
The second instance of $1-$3, was supplemental information which specified "admission" and not total income. Again I was trying to say that he did not make much money. And not what she is insinuating in her response (that I was trying to make it look like he charged too much money)....
I will try to respond to the rest directly on your blog...
ES
anticultist said this on April 17, 2010 at 2:30 pm

Its nice to hear a bit of history, and helps show that Fresco has always rather struggled with finances. I can quite understand his desire to do things his way, and not to get too much into bed with those with money, its a difficult game for sure to play, where your not being played.
Finance does seem one of the common issues effecting many efforts to change the world. A good book on the aspect of not always having the right skill set for a task is the E-Myth ( http://www.e-myth.com ), I fond most useful in spotting the weak areas in myself, and I think people like Fresco could benefit from it (If he's not already read it, as its been out for a while now.), as I think he is a genuis in some areas, but like many people I know of with great ideas, lack the business skills to make it a reality.
That I think is something we can help folk like that with, develop something they can make money with, so they can afford to put their ideas into practice.
Often money making is seen as a great evil by the more idealistic, so it isn't always a good marriage with followers who are poor and hate the rich, and idealist genuises who have the ideas, but no way to put them into practice.
I hope the history talked about here, shows the need to be more Donald Trump like to get things done.
Nanos said this on April 14, 2010 at 5:41 pm | Reply

I think your optimistic view of this man and woman is quite different to my own view in light of this new information.
To me it just seems all rather snake like and manipulative, not to mention the levels of control freak being perpetuated.
I personally think they know enough about finances to get by just fine, and quite honestly if they start making millions from this new found interest in their ideas you might see some more dubious dealings and turns occuring. When Jacque passes away it might get a little interesting too.
anticultist said this on April 14, 2010 at 5:47 pm | Reply

Even if Fresco has been captured by the monetary system, who isn't? I'm not surprised if he is. How many times have I heard him say, "the monetary system makes you a son-of-a-bitch." I'm not surprised at all. But I feel our interpretation of the events may be skewed a bit to far by a bias that is inclined to maximize the possible negative aspects of Fresco. Although, I do have the same hunch everyone else has.
Nate said this on June 17, 2010 at 4:28 am

I just go by the events of what happened and that is what ES says happened because even Roxannes official statement in reply to this blog did not deny it, in fact it further compounded it as truth. Then I add on the fact the Venus project is a profit company and a non profit charity that does nothing but promote media and make models and generate income, money and more members to promote it and buy into it.
So Jacque can say all the double talk and lyrical muddying he likes it wont change those facts.
anticultist said this on June 17, 2010 at 9:28 am

Below is a reply from Euripide Sneed regarding Roxanne Meadows reply to his details provided above:
I just checked your blog to respond, but apparently her comments were not made there, but some place else. That being the case, that means my comments are on some other Forum, which was not my intention.
Many people who attended the lectures that Jacque held in his home wanted to get together and purchase land and build something. Jacque was going to supply all of the designs. Jacque offered drawing lesson so people could participate in some way but it really boiled down to three people do did most of the work the others were mostly verbal.
No argument, here. Most of the members were unskilled, and participated by giving money, since they had regular jobs they could not quit.
They did put up enough money to get a down payment for about 40 acres of land in Naples, Florida for about $600. an acre, but they did not continue the payments except for 3 people but those 3 could not make the land payments alone so a lawyer friend of Jacque's, Cleave Herring, came forth and continued the payments until we could sell the land. Nothing was made on that venture.
These are details that are fair, but do not contradict what was stated, which was that some people invested money, and never got it back. And some people wrote it off as a loss. It is sad that they were in such a hurry to sell this land, since it was a better investment. That nothing was made on that venture means then, that they sold it for less than they purchased it for, and yet now it is worth millions? This land was not affordable apparently, so it had to be sold, but, the Venus land ended up costing much more.
It was strange because if the group did follow through with the payment and kept the land if they ever wanted to sell it would have been worth millions because that area became a very exclusive wealthy area to live. The land value rocketed in Naples.
Sad but true.
Unfortunately by that time there was no organization after the members stopped paying on the land.
Yes, many of the members stopped making the monthly payments when the move was made to Venus, others continued to make payments after the move to Venus. Others just ran out of money. As I said, many were poor.
That whole episode was disappointing to Jacque and the other two people who continued to work with him. After all he put out a lot of effort with people for over a decade to teach them things in all areas.
Yes, there was a nice group forming in Miami, they would still be together today, willing to participate, if the organization had not moved out of Miami. The rest of the group could not just "uproot" themselves, quit their jobs, and move to Venus with no source of income. It was a wilderness out there in Venus. At least Miami had jobs where they could continue to pay to attend lectures, learn new things, and continue to support the movement.
The money to buy the land in Venus came from the sale of a home in Miami Jacque sold. He lived there for about a year of more. This house was in the black section of Miami so you know the land value was not high.
Yes, my information did not conflict with this.
This person who wrote this nasty article knows nothing about the prices he is remarking on. He is lying about all of this. The first parcel we purchased in Venus was 10 acres for a little over $1,600 an acre. Then over the years we purchase two other contiguous parcels that adds up to a little over 21+ acres. He knows very little about building processes either because building out of concrete and steal is far more expensive and durable than brick and timber. All of the other numbers are grossly incorrect as well.
Lying? How so? These are details that supplement the information already provided, they don't conflict with it. The whole point of the buildings on Venus, was that there is a "cheaper way" to house people. And that 50% of the cost of a home is the cost of labor. The dome structures, whether made of concrete or steel, require fewer laborers, and thus, a lower cost per structure. If these steel structures have a higher real estate value than brick and mortar, then "have at it". Then the property is a "bargain" and hopefully will be sold real soon.
We never changed the name to The Venus Project to cover up any deals regarding the sale of the land in Naples. We changed the name long after the purchase of the land in Venus because Sociocyberneering was too difficult to pronounce for people or even to remember. This was before the word cyber was even used. The Venus Project was simple and easy.
We don't want to spend much more time on this nonsense as most of what he is saying are lies, projections and out of some other misunderstanding.
"She doth protest too much". The "bulk" of the comments I made about Fresco were "complimentary", even to the "chagrin" and "annoyance" of some of the people in this blog. It was not a popular thing to do. But, I called a spade a spade, for better or for worse. She uncovered no lies, as much as provided more detail and minutia (which is welcome), concerning what was already said. However, if the purpose of creating a new entity was strictly to create a "shorter name", or easier to pronounce, there was "no need" to dissolve the first organization, especially if funds were hard to come by. Sociocyberneering had jumped through the hoops to qualify as a non-profit organization, it had a track record in terms of how long it was incorporated. This is important when soliciting future donations, and reporting treatment from Dun and Bradstreet. To legally change the name, and leave the organization in tact would have cost only a "fraction" of the cost of creating a whole new organization, submitting paperwork, re qualifying, etc. But, I agree with her that we should not spend any more time on this "nonsense". Let's move forward and learn from our past mistakes, but try to remember those who gave of themselves and their money, in good faith early in this movement, but are now just relegated as "deadbeats" or "verbal" supporters from the past.
He never checked his statements with us and does not even use his real name. If you listen to the Fresco's Classic Lecture Series you will see that he took that name after hearing it from Jacque, which is ironic, but we mainly wanted to make a statement as to what happened in regards to the Naples property.
We all remember what we remember, it's all pieces of a puzzle, and neither side has a monopoly on the whole truth. The choice of pseudonym was intentional, and was an attempt to complement Fresco on his creativity and wonderful sense of humor. And hopefully it will encourage people to listen to some of his past lectures, just to hear about the adventures of Sneed. "fini"
anticultist said this on April 17, 2010 at 11:48 am | Reply

Regarding the first property (Naples) she responds "Nothing was made on that venture" regarding the sale of it. This bothers me on several levels. If, for example, the property was purchased for $16K, some of which was from members investments, and some of which was the attorney friend, then why couldn't the reduced funds still be returned to the investors? For example: Purchase price, $16K, remaining funds after loses $14K (just an example since we have no other details), then shouldn't the $14K have been distributed at a "pro-rated" bases depending on how much was put into the land? The way the sale was actually handled is that some people (the investors/members) lost 100% of their investment, while maybe others got 100% of their money back. So, while on paper a "profit" wasn't made on the sale, there were "some" funds remaining from the sale. I'm just saying it would have been "nice" to be a part of the "decision-making" process, when our land was sold. Maybe some of us would have been willing to take the property off his hands (transfer title and be done with it). But, that "offer" was never made. We are just told "after the fact" that the property was sold at a loss, without any ledger or accounting, as is customary when a group of people pool their money into an investment. I'm sorry I had to to add this, but it is just so "frustrating" how some facts and issues were just "skimmed" over. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt, and pick an "outrageous loss" of $15K. So, that the property was purchased for $16K and sold for $1K after paying the mortgage and the attorney. Then shouldn't that remaining $1,000 been offered proportionately to those who had in invested in the first property? Those whose payments amounted to only 10% of the purchase price could have been offered 10% of the remaining funds, or $100. Those who paid 50% could have gotten $500 back, etc. But, I really doubt that the remaining funds was only $1K after the sale, so probably more money was involved. As you can see, it is not just about the "money", but rather how the situation was handled. Enough said for clarification purposes, we have all moved on since then...
Euripide Sneed said this on April 19, 2010 at 4:20 pm | Reply

As is customary with these people they dont like anyone in their business.
Try and talk financial issues with them today and they avoid you like the plague, something is going down with those two and its looking shady.
I would not trust those two with a boats rudder, the second you look away they'd be steering you off course and blaming you for it.
anticultist said this on April 19, 2010 at 7:23 pm | Reply

That's exactly what happened.
Euripide Sneed said this on April 27, 2010 at 6:22 pm

Yeah and its shameful, taking advantage of decent humble folk.
anticultist said this on April 27, 2010 at 6:51 pm

You clearly have more up to date experiences than I can offer, since I have not been a volunteer with the group for many decades.
Also, some of the readers on your blog (or an affiliate forum) had a question about my reference of "Shape of Things to Come", not being listed as a movie in any directory. To clarify, the "book" by H.G. Wells (1933)was written by that title. But, when it was made into a movie the title was shortened to "Things to Come" (1936). The early Sociocyberneering book list had the book title listed and not the "shorter" movie title. But, both the book and movie were often recommended for those people who were interested in a simplified version of using machines to assemble buildings, as we currently do with robots in the automobile industry. Erecting buildings with robots was just the next logical step in progression.
Euripide Sneed said this on April 22, 2010 at 12:02 am | Reply

http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/04/08/earth-2-movie-venus-proect-fails-and-reators-cut-fresco-loose/#comment-623
http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/04/08/earth-2-movie-venus-proect-fails-and-reators-cut-fresco-loose/#comment-624
anticultist said this on April 29, 2010 at 8:43 pm | Reply

The following was also a great article. I wasn't able to register to compliment the author (registration closed), but it was well thought out. I remember while being a conspiracy theorist it was so convenient (and mentally lazy) to have an "us" and "them" mentality. It is much harder to examine each person on their own merits, rather than just classify them as "the illuminati". I have no doubt that there are conspiracies, as it is a recognized "legal term", however, they tend to exist in small "clusters" of people, as opposed to just "one global" entity. Even amongst bankers, Freemasons, etc., there are good guys and bad guys, as in any other organization for that matter.
The article I am referring to, as a good read, is as follows: http://conspiracyscience.com/blog/2010/05/07/a-response-to-the-zeitgeist-movements-diagnosis-of-intellectual-inhibition/
Euripide Sneed said this on May 8, 2010 at 5:28 pm | Reply

yeah very good read, you can get in touch with the writer via their email at the top of the post, also I have other posts by them linked on the side:
http://muertos.blog.com/2010/03/13/adventures-in-conspiracy-land-the-zeitgeist-movement/
http://muertos.blog.com/2010/05/06/the-zeitgeist-movement-take-2-conspiracies-are-us/
anticultist said this on May 8, 2010 at 6:23 pm

Haha, "good guys" and "bad guys" suffer from a similar flawed dichotomy as "us" against "them."
Nate said this on June 17, 2010 at 4:56 am

hahahahahahaha
anticultist said this on May 18, 2010 at 4:19 pm | Repl
y
Oh man... That video made me come back to this blog and want to read it fully. I know these comments from ES were copied and pasted from other blogs here, so I'll be reviewing those links soon. But wow, I truly appreciate the insight from him and sharing his experience with us here.
I do have a question though, I was wondering how different was the booklist in Sociocyberneering recommendations oppose to what is in the recommended booklist they have now?
Link: http://thevenusproject.com/images/stories/booklist.pdf
I would like to know which movies and books were subtracted/substituted assuming that there is a difference between the two.
From ES:
"For example, his first book "Looking Forward" now sells from $200-$400 each. I remember I had 10 or 20 copies, years ago that were $6 each. But, they got lost over the years..."
Well, it's free now:
http://thevenusproject.com/images/stories/Looking-Forward-v2.pdf
But I know, they are still selling stuff.
BranManFloMore said this on May 18, 2010 at 8:31 pm | Reply

Its class isnt it ! whoever did it I would like to thank them for it.
anticultist said this on May 18, 2010 at 9:57 pm | Reply

And the beat is so catchy too.
BranManFloMore said this on May 18, 2010 at 10:00 pm

There are only a few changes between the older booklists and the newer ones. Books were normally added rather than taken off. For example the old list didn't have DVDs on it because DVDs didn't exist in the 70′s. If I find an old book list in the next few weeks I will upload a copy.
EDITED:
Hello again.
I had promised BranManFloMore a copy of the reading list from the 70′s, see attachment.
As you can see, there were some changes, but many of the original books are still on the present reading list.
ES

http://i1023.photobucket.com/albums/af354/anticultist/readinglist1070s.jpg
Euripide Sneed said this on May 22, 2010 at 6:27 pm | Reply

Take your time and thanks for responding.
BranManFloMore said this on May 22, 2010 at 6:43 pm

Jacque discusses sociocyberneering events, here he washes over what happened with Euripide Sneed, and makes out as if they all just dropped out paying on the original land. And then says he didn't go back to them afterwards as he didn't want them involved.

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anticultist said this on May 26, 2010 at 4:30 pm

The original video - just replace marimba music for meditation and theyre usual canned responses for singing/chanting and you got the Zeitgeist Movement(up to 10:57).Certainly makes a good intro to this group.
P.S. My woeful performance and overall abscence at RBEF,my disatorous attempt at reaching out to my local chapter,the odd snide remark here and there etc is a sign of one thing - I really dont care anymore.Im 23 years old and currently going through one of the few lucid moments in my life and I have alot to do - Im working with some post grads during the summer ,I suspect I have manic depression must deal with it plus I have some things I want to do over the summer.To be honest I dont want to hear,see or speak the word Zeitgeist or anything related to it for at least a month...maybe more..I've had enough of this sillyness.To see this movement crash and burn under its own nievity/foolisness has been seriously downing me alot for the past few months or so.Ciao!
Shane Nolan said this on May 18, 2010 at 11:02 pm | Reply

take care shane
yeah Ive seen that original I love it.
Thats why I like the one above yours so much.
anticultist said this on May 18, 2010 at 11:20 pm | Reply

Yeah, I still dig the remix though. Take care Shane.
BranManFloMore said this on May 19, 2010 at 12:51 am

Damn, there certainly are parallels. Not quite to the extremes as in the video, but very close in some aspects. I wonder if Fresco ever imagined he would be the spark of a cultesque development. His life would be a great biopic.
Nate said this on June 17, 2010 at 5:22 am | Reply

http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/04/14/tvp-ex-1970-1980s-member-speaks/#comment-884
For those of you doubting the authenticity of Euripide, see the 1970s reading list pdf provided in the comment above.
anticultist said this on June 3, 2010 at 8:01 pm | Reply

No one will have to doubt anymore. But yeah... We know now. To ES, a major thanks to you.
BranManFloMore said this on June 3, 2010 at 8:45 pm | Reply

Wow! Very good post. This is great historical information and I see Peter Joseph following in Jacque Fresco's footprints. I had a thought while reading this that perhaps Jacque offered to teach "Dr. Peter Joseph" how to defraud people of their money and endorse him exclusively in exchange for him to buy his property. Crazy thought really. Peter Joseph Merola strikes me as a poor person.
Manila English said this on July 31, 2010 at 3:07 pm | Reply

Yes its interesting to see exactly what goes on in the background and in the historical records of these people and groups, most of their membership ignore this information and dont even consider it valuable. They are simply being naieve to not fully research these people they trust and claim as heros.
This information really does change things, there is also some more information regarding Jacque Frescos history below which I posted elsewhere that was given to me by this same member:
So here goes:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From time to time when I do a Google search, I see Fresco's name pop up, and in this case it was regarding the Conspiracy Science site trying to piece together Frecso's past.
Every time I think I have communicated for the last time, something pops up on the Internet which bothers me because it is not accurate.
I believe the people at Conspiracy Science are on the right track to "individually research" the archives, rather than just use one person as a resource.
So, some of the clarifications in chronology are as follows, but are by no means more than "ball park" estimates in terms of exact dates.
1. It was suggested that Jacque left his wife to be with Roxanne. Not true. She entered the picture "quite late" in the game. Fresco had a daughter AND a son, from a previous marriage. After the divorce, the mother kept both children from visiting Fresco until they were older. His son didn't really get a chance to know his father until the late 70′s for a few brief visits to the Fresco home. His son had no inclinations of being a philosopher like his father, and was interested in joining the police force. Without warning, again "approximately" in the late 70′s, maybe early 80′s, his son shot himself (apparently over a discontinued relationship with a girlfriend). I met him, and he was a nice sort of fellow. I was sad to see him gone at such an early age (late teens, early 20′s). I never met Fresco's daughter, she remained with her mother in those days.
2. Roxanne has been referenced several times, on the Internet as "co-founder" of Sociocyberneering in Miami. This is untrue. After Fresco's divorce, he got a vasectomy, not wanting to bring any more children in the world, since he never planned on ever getting married again. He always felt that Polygamy was the way to go (without the marriage part). After the divorce, possibly many years, he met Birgit Lahaye.
(http://www.miamiislandliving.com/)
She worked many years with him as Treasurer of Sociobyberneering, and helping him with various film and art productions. She was from Germany, and a dedicated mate and hard worker. She was technically the co-founder of Sociocyberneering, with Jacque. One day, in the late 70′s, Roxanne attended one of Jacque's lectures with her boyfriend (who was a long time member). One thing led to another, and after a few weeks, she was sleeping with Jacque. Jacque was happy to keep both girlfriends, but Birgit was more traditionally minded, and didn't believe in "threesomes". Nevertheless, Birgit continued to support Jacque, helped with the move from Miami to Venus, and even helped Jacque build some of the domes and models at Venus. But, understandably, Birgit could not continue to be a "second fiddle" to Roxanne indefinitely and so she moved on. Roxanne was more ideal for Jacque (less of an independent thinker than Birgit, less moral inhibitions, and completely mold-able). Sort of a "blank slate". But, early on, Roxanne became very "territorial" with Jacque, and alienated many of the members. People who knew him for years, "now" had to go through "her" (the new girl on the block) to make an appointment with him.
3. I have no further contact with any of them, but my understanding is that Birgit continues to make a life for herself, works with Real Estate, and in my opinion is the "most" knowledgeable person concerning Jacque's work (besides himself). Understandably, she did not make waves, to Jacque's change in partners, and she still wishes him well from afar.
4. It can be argued, but not proven at this time, that one of the reasons the organization moved out of Miami (and fell apart) was to make the separation easier for Jacque and Birgit. Unfortunately, many of the members (which was unknown to Jacque) objected to his fling with Roxanne, and more importantly they loved and missed Birgit's presence in the group, after so many years of her sacrifice and contributions. So, I guess you can say that it was a "coincidence" that many of the members, including Roxanne's previous boyfriend, stopped making payments on the Naples land, and started to drift even further when Jacque took a permanent "honeymoon" to Venus with Roxanne (no pun intended). I don't believe that Birgit was in a position to just "quit" her job, and become a farmer in Venus anyway.
5. I believe that Birgit will continue to admire Jacque, in spite of how she was treated. And, probably in her own mind, she is very understanding of his need for a mate who had less personal ambitions in life.
I hope this helps a little. Sorry I have nothing to contribute concerning his daughter. And I regret never getting the opportunity to meet her before her passing.
Originally I posted it here:
http://conspiracyscience.com/forums/topic/jacque-fresco-deadbeat-dad
anticultist said this on July 31, 2010 at 3:25 pm | Reply

There is a new video going around suggesting that "I" said that Jacque cheated on his wife with Roxanne. Yet, I stated the complete "opposite". Jacque was divorced for many years from his wife before he met Roxanne in the late 70′s. When Jacque met Roxanne he "did" have a "significant other" at the time, who was not thrilled about Jacque's new affair, but she was not his wife when he cheated on her. So, my concern is that anyone seeing the video will be able to check the record and see that Jacque was divorced for many years before meeting Roxanne. Thus the video will lose its credibility. There were other statements in the video attributed to me, that I never said. So, I guess "no good deed goes unpunished" as they say. I tried to clarify the historical record, and instead it gets turned into fiction...
Euripide Sneed said this on August 7, 2010 at 6:21 am | Reply

Looks like someones read the blog briefly and then made a video without taking care in the quotes. At least if anyone checks the sources they will find that the video is flawed and not you.
anticultist said this on August 7, 2010 at 6:30 am | Reply

Thanks. I hope that will be the case. There are enough (real) potential problem issues with Fresco's history of dealing with "supporters", that can be addressed, without having to create "fake" or "red herring" issues, which never happened. This is why many modern newspapers and TV/Radio shows are losing ratings, because they "re-write" history and current events, and the American public is losing confidence in their accuracy. I hope that doesn't happen with the Conspiracy Science movement.
Euripide Sneed said this on August 7, 2010 at 9:02 pm

Yeah I think there is just a few moments here and there where things get a bit indifferent on the forum, nothing to worry about they, they always go back to what they do best and that is use facts against conspiracy theories.
Regarding those youtube videos CS forum are not responsible for any of them as far as I am aware, none of them have mentioned creating or participating in their making. So hopefully whoever is making them are reading this and fix their stuff.
anticultist said this on August 7, 2010 at 10:20 pm

I appreciate you pointing that out. I visited the vimeo web site again to see why I was under the impression that it was one of the CS members. When you go to video, under the video is a reference to CS. But, as I looked closer, the person who posted the video called himself "anon2″, and the CS reference was only a link to where he got the inspiration for the video. So, yes, it is possible that he is not a CS member. And even if he is a member, CS probably had no control over his "anonymous" actions. So, I am just going to drop the issue rather than draw more attention to the video..... At the same time, I'm not saying that the video is completely wrong. For example, Fresco may indeed have cheated on his wife while he was married (it was before my time). But, it wouldn't have been with Roxanne, since she was one of the newest members of the group, while others had been with Jacque 10 or 20 years before she came along....
Euripide Sneed said this on August 9, 2010 at 3:11 am | Reply

Wow, I'm sitting here reading this after curiously lurking around the CS site for maybe the past week or so. I've been part of TZM for over 2 years and as time went by, I just had more and more questions which went completely unanswered. I want to commend Euripide Sneed (is that the coolest name in the world? quite possibly) for being entirely honest and open about his experiences with TVP. It has broadly answered many questions I had floating around in my head in one fell swoop.
I'm caught between feelings that PJM and TVP are trying to really do good on this earth, trying to make this a better place for us all and the feeling that they might just be looking after Numero Uno, selling us snake oil whilst whispering how it will make our ailment go away. It could all be an incredibly well thought out marketing scheme to earn big money on one or more theatrical releases with an already established fanbase of several hundred thousands of people, something I wouldn't put past a creative, intelligent young man with proven connections in both advertising and the movie business...
Perhaps I'm seeing mirages, when in fact it's simply a highway leading nowhere..
Thanks for your insight ES, very interesting stuff.
Senor DingDong said this on September 3, 2010 at 3:14 am | Reply

Though it is possible, I wouldn't put too much hype into a money scheme.
In all likelihood, both Fresco and Merola have good intentions. However, Merola took a naive dive after encoutering the grand wizard Fresco and has gotten himself in too deep to back out now. I'm sure that some of the criticism is getting to him and he knows the critics are right, but at this point he has gone to far to admit defeat. Predictably, he will fight his opponents to death now that he has invested so much money, emotion, and time into disseminating Fresco's ideology. Admitting defeat will destroy him. I can't see him surrendering his esteem and growing ego after so much effort. I would imagine that at this time Merola is probably beginning to see his efforts faltering and soon his knees will grow weak after Fresco passes away. Who knows what will happen then. We may witness a one-man-against-the-world scenario in which his self-worth/total-esteem is at stake for which self-deception will be necessary to preserve it. And the use of his supporters will reaffirms his perceived successes/victories over his critics. Someday he will crash hard with regret and self-loathing. Or perhaps he will find a way to avoid admitting failure (kinda like Fresco) by being either completely delusional/oblivious or by staging his success/credibility/reverence/confidence like a performance (kinda like Fresco). I could be wrong, Merola has surprised me before.
Regarding Fresco, he's probably sincere too. If he developed all of his rhetoric simply as a way to "make a buck" like some people around here think, then he should be declared a genius just for the sheer vastness and thoroughness of his material. It seems clear that he is sincere and but perhaps slightly delusional (especially since most old men are, but I am hesitant to call him delusional, he seems something like delusional). People tend to oversimplify Fresco's personality as if he were a toad. The truth is, if you take a look throughout history, most of the predominant figures (primarily philosophers and artists) had very complex personalities that were difficult to deal with. Place Fresco's personality in the enlightenment era, he would have made an impact.
Fresco is the kind of guy who stives for autonomy, he seems geared that way. When you see him that way, his entire life makes sense: difficulty holding jobs, frequent traveling, his passion, his energy, multidisiplinary interests fueled by a "need for cognition" (NFC). He seems to have suffered from mania all his life. Thus, doesn't it sound right to call him a maniac?
Maniac or not, it does good to understand him. By doing so we can more cleanly cut away from him what is useful.
I think he had high hopes once upon a time, especially when he started Sociocyberneering. As his life comes to a close I'm sure he sees his dream will not be realized. So off he goes on tour with nothing to lose. He gets to do what he is psychologically geared to do (deliver the information he has built his life around) and make money off of it, (kinda sounds like a professor huh?). What could be better? I don't think he's doing it for the money. I think releasing his infinite passion is priority number 1. The money tops the cake.
BTW, I'm pretty sure Euripide Sneed was a name Fresco employed in his early lectures.
Nate said this on September 4, 2010 at 9:26 am | Reply

If you look at the Venus project itself it is a scam to get donations only. Each proposed thing is a fool's proposition to scam money... no material exist as they claim to make the parts. Prefab is a super problem and flying parts is insane... cities to save coral reefs an insult to us all, and Geothermal and Hydro fracturing waters are pollution big time more than we ever dreamed of! Promoting bad technologies in very wrong ways. wanting people to not work is an insult to humans all over the planet. The THEME PARK TZM scamming donations on a fake web page that has 500 members and 404 euros and a guy named John joining each time you go...on the left TED clips that prove what is on the right side is pure junk "THEME PARK" and far from being anything normal or logical with "THEME PARK" materials wanted! Gel for noise for example id for theme parks! Wind power when they know not if they will have wind! They have no location and brake the rules of resource evaluation on the location FIRST use local materials... so many points we see the scam! From way back to this very day... a scam to steal funds for one project to be used for evil greed and vanity extreme... Worst of the worst kind of capitalist pig is to make a theme park!
I would of put them in prison long ago if I had the power!
They have no shame!
just greed vanity and a pile of lies exposed!
Peter said this on September 11, 2010 at 6:23 am

[...] TVP ex 1970-1980′s member speaks [...]
Zeitgeist Blogs: Zeitgeist is a Mind Heist « Zeitgeist Movement Exposed said this on November 10, 2010 at 9:12 pm | Reply

[...] proof when ES provides his old [...]
A Study On The Failure of a VTV Debate « The Zeitgeist Movement Examined said this on January 20, 2011 at 10:00 am | Reply

Thank you so much for this information. It validates my own concerns about this cult. I am very much interested in the concept of utopian psychopatholgy as I feel this is very much what drives the VP. Like the born again christians, the ZM/VP movement plays on the insecurity of most people by making them feel somehow special - the elect...
I made a video a while ago called "Venus Project No Thanks". At first I was getting mostly polite comments. But in the last month I have literally by under attack verbally. It all happened quickly and out of the blue. Organised. I have just published a book on psychopaths and one section deals with the utopian psychopathic control grid - how using everything from Love Bombing, Protection and Gaslighting lures people in. Mind control in precise, incremental steps. I see all this in the ZM/VP. It is so obvious in fact.
Thanks so much for this very important blog. Here are the videos I made which got them all in a tizzy:

Thomas Sheridan said this on February 27, 2011 at 7:41 pm | Reply

thanks for your comment man appreciated.
anticultist said this on April 12, 2011 at 6:19 pm | Repl
y
Anticultist -- I am writing a feature-length article on the Venus Project, and would love your input. What got you into this, why you do this, and so forth. Could we talk within the next couple days? If so, could you email me to set up a time?
Thanks,
Jeff Gore, Staff Writer
Orlando Weekly
Jeff Gore said this on September 19, 2011 at 4:47 pm | Reply

Hi Jeff it is too late to discuss this matter as I have already seen your article as pointed out by a member of Conspiracy Science. To be honest I read your article and it read like a person pushing an agenda rather than someone doing a piece of reporting.
anticultist said this on October 22, 2011 at 1:32 pm | Reply




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The Burger KingPosted: Jun 19, 2013 - 23:13
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I can't stop posting pictures of poop, what the fuck is wrong with me?

Level: 5
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The science that is missing and completely wrong in the venus project April.19.2010 35 53
5 part
http://web.archive.org/web/20110814174656/http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/04/19/the-science-that-is-missing-and-completely-wrong-in-the-venus-project/


This will be an ongoing adapted thread. Watch and learn.

Firstly I will discuss the Scientific Method:


Scientific method refers to a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning. A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.

Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, identifiable features distinguish scientific inquiry from other methodologies of knowledge. Scientific researchers propose hypotheses as explanations of phenomena, and design experimental studies to test these hypotheses. These steps must be repeatable in order to dependably predict any future results. Theories that encompass wider domains of inquiry may bind many independently derived hypotheses together in a coherent, supportive structure. This in turn may help form new hypotheses or place groups of hypotheses into context.

Among other facets shared by the various fields of inquiry is the conviction that the process must be objective to reduce biased interpretations of the results. Another basic expectation is to document, archive and share all data and methodology so they are available for careful scrutiny by other scientists, thereby allowing other researchers the opportunity to verify results by attempting to reproduce them. This practice, called full disclosure, also allows statistical measures of the reliability of these data to be established.


The above lays out what the Scientific Method actually is, since the Venus Project and The Zeitgeist Movement have absolutely no actual data they have gathered, other than speculation and anecdotes it is precise to say they are not even imposing the scientific method.

They could wriggle out of this by claiming they use observable facets of society [relating this to empirical evidence], but since the observations they tend to make and utilise are based on flawed opinions, conspiracy theories, and Jacques utilisation of other peoples research he has not validated himself we can throw this one out straight away.


Since they have actively shown by their admin behaviour and from Jacque & Roxanne lack of ability to advance and correct their knowledge and even integrate new ideas into their plans we can throw this out.

Since they have no empirical and measurable data or evidence to validate any claims they make we can throw this out.

Since they have carried out no experimentations on their spurious claims we can throw this one out.

Since they havent formulated any hypothesis and ran any tests to validate them whatsoever from any of the above quantifiable details we can throw this one out.

Since everything must be objective and free from biases to be considered a true scientific method we can throw this one out too, their forum and claims are riddled with self-defensive biases.

Since nothing on their forum or what Jacque claims is laid out in specific steps and can be considered a repeatable scientific method and experiment we can throw this one out.

Since Jacque does not allow anything he claims to have documented or calculated to be viewed and scrutinised and retested by any scientific peers, since there is no full disclosure and no apparent fully documented tests and data collection we can throw this one out.

Peters videos have been scrutinised and critiqued and long since proven factually incorrect on many fundamental grounds, including statements made and conclusions, and he has not attempted once to redress his mistakes or correct them publicly after being pointed out, this goes completely against the scientific method.

Bear in mind there is not a single scientist carrying out any tests, data collection, experimentation, hypothesis making for the entire venus project. everything is based on Jacques claims.

So what we are left with is their claim to use the scientific method and to talk about existing scientific breakthroughs and updates on their forum, which has little implications to the venus project. Jacques plan is unchangeable and its his way or no way at all. He himself has nothing to offer but anecdotal stories from his long forgotten past with no evidence to provide what he is saying is true and testable.



More to come.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Anticutlist blog comments


1. The assorted models shown and built by Jaques are in many cases architectural nightmares, which no real architect would design that way and no structural engineer would even try to vindicate.
2. Jaques drawings of Hovercraft, while interesting concept art, include fatal flaws of design including completely flat "lifting body" flying wings.
3. Jaques is no sociologist or Psychohistorian. Should there be a collapse, the result would not be RBEs, but break down into anarchy. The idea of a post collapse RBE is simply a means to the end of avoiding responsibility to make real change now, and puts
TVP on the same footing as any other Armageddeon theology. In fact, TVP then ends up being very much exactly a Zionist Armageddon Cult, redressed for atheists instead of Christians, it follows the main points of Armageddon Cults point for point.
4. Net Ergonomics. We are to believe that TVP can bring about a more utopian ideal society, yet the actual manifested society that exists on their forum is a dystopian fascistic bully cult, where the admins and moderators operate via ad hominem and passive aggressive manipulation to keep people in line and to keep real conversation regarding these and other fatal flaws silenced.
5. This demonstrates a fatal lack of understanding of sociology, net ergonomics, or what systems theorists would call metaprocess, or process regarding their processes, including processes regarding how to deal with conflicts. TVP doesn't have a metaprocess, it simply employs ignorant bullies as moderators.
6. Communication skills. TVP moderators and admins are chronically addicted to ad hominems, straw man arguments, false dilemmas and every major logical fallacy. This proves an ignorance of formal conversational logic, but more importantly it demonstrates that TVP doesn't have real communication skills and does not have a functional answer for conflict or even meaningful questions.
7. 3d designs as seen on their site are windowless and doorless dystopian monstrosities, pretty to look at but in reality unlivable and completely out of touch with real design requirements for human beings.
8. No processes. TVP assumes a top down informational hierarchy where the very top is expected to come up with all the answers. Thus is does not engage in or make an effort towards harnassing group intelligence, and in fact throws away all of the good ideas of the public. They don't have a problem solving process, they only lead a chit chat space. Not only do they not have metaprocess, they don't have process. And not only do they not use the scientific method to solve problems, they don't use ANY method to solve problems.
9. Concept art generated by Jaques and others show designs which might have looked futuristic in the 60s. Now such designs simply look like most outmoded futurism, for the good reason that this is all it is or ever was. Concept art. Not designs, not blueprints, and certainly, not as claimed by them or apologists "technical" process, nor even "technical" anything.
Prometheuspan said this on April 19, 2010 at 6:57 am | Reply

10. PJ makes the case in his videos that Yeshua ben yeoseph aka "Jesus" was considered the "son" of god because of links to solar dieties and thus that the situation is that it started out as him being the "sun" of god. This might be called argument from homonym.
While it is true that the Jesus myth is merely another such myth in a long line of wheel of the year gods (starting most originally for us with the oak and the holly king) By the time things had moved into the middle east the solar association had been long gone.
Hes half right, but he makes mistakes that no real religious scholar would make in conflating terms and meanings in order to make his case pro atheism. In short, the solarity of the Jesus figure is something we can tack on, after the fact, but nobody in reality thought of him as a solar diety and by the time Yeshuas actual life was mixed with DionYSIUS, there was no association at all in that culture with solarity. Key ingredients were certainly borrowed from other religions, most notably the cult of DionYSIUS (Ysius, Jsius, Jesus) But even there, PJ gets the priority and identity of those influences wrong, telling us the influences are Egyptian when in fact they are Roman Pagan.
While The main point of the video remains more or less true, the actual details of his argument are rubbish.
Prometheuspan said this on April 19, 2010 at 7:25 am | Reply

Another nice post. I'm currently reading and watching some of Dr. Michio Kaku's articles. What do you think of him?
Secruoser said this on April 19, 2010 at 7:57 am | Reply

I rather like Michio Kaku personally, I find him easily accessable and academically sound on most of his claims about futurism.
anticultist said this on April 19, 2010 at 8:00 am | Reply

The Claims to scientific method or process are truly vacuous.
To see how a forum might be run using real scientific method, you can check out RBEF.
In short, there is nothing AT ALL scientific about their methods,claims, or core axioms.
The total reverse is true, the forum is run on nothing but the whims and biases and ignorant opinions of VTV and Thunder and their ilk, perpetually proving in almost any given thread that they are liars, that they are ad hominem dependent, that their only good answer for most questions is an appeal to authority of their mouldering and nutty non scientific documents, that hard questions are cause for personal attack or banning or thread locking...
In short, the actual behavior we can witness is the opposite of scientific method, its merely a trollish bandwagon.
-------
"Since they have actively shown by their admin behaviour and from Jacque & Roxanne lack of ability to advance and correct their knowledge and even integrate new ideas into their plans we can throw this out."
The inability to entertain critical introspection is a critical fatal flaw. You can't claim scientific method if you can't look at yourself critically in the mirror. They can't. They can't listen to science facts, they can't listen to scientists, and when science or scientists actually show up on the forum, the result is always that the person is attacked, bullied, and if they refuse to back down, they are banned or the thread locked or both.
Under such conditions, and claim to "scientific method" is patently ludicrous.
"Since they have no empirical and measurable data or evidence to validate any claims they make we can throw this out."
They don't even try to make empirical claims, measure data, or etc. Its pretty safe to say that anything they come up with is off the top of their head.. (or, comes out the bottom end...)
"Since they have carried out no experimentations on their spurious claims we can throw this one out."
Perhaps more amusingly, if we run a scientific test or experiment to determine if they are willing or open to discuss actual science, we can always come up with the same result. Testing THEM always proves that they have no interest in science and are unwilling to conduct any kind of scientific method or process.
"Since everything must be objective and free from biases to be considered a true scientific method we can throw this one out too, their forum and claims are riddled with self-defensive biases."
The key red flag for any cult, how defensive they are versus how willing they are to work through challenges in a real and transparent way. This is circular. When they fail to answer such challenges this then leads 10 more people to test the same questions, which leads to a trollish environment all the way around.
VTV or Thunder are too arrogant and ignorant to even know how to identify bias or ignorance, let alone prevent themselves from displaying it.
In terms of logic, they don't have any. They rely entirely upon bullying and control and power trips, in order to back up their preconcieved notions and defend their ego invested group identities.
Any REAL scientists would find this to be a despicable state of affairs and an utterly non scientific environment based only on cult bandwagon pack psychology- not science.
"Since nothing on their forum or what Jacque claims is laid out in specific steps and can be considered a repeatable scientific method and experiment we can throw this one out."
Indeed, there isn't one single aspect of the scientific method that they even approximate.
Prometheuspan said this on April 19, 2010 at 8:07 am | Reply

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michio_Kaku
"Social policy advocacy
Kaku has publicly stated his concerns over matters including the human cause of global warming, nuclear armament, nuclear power, and the general misuse of science.[5] He was critical of the Cassini-Huygens space probe because of the 72 pounds of plutonium contained in the craft for use by its radioisotope thermoelectric generator. Conscious of the possibility of casualties if the probe's fuel were dispersed into the environment during a malfunction and crash as the probe was making a 'sling-shot' maneuver around earth, Kaku publicly criticized NASA's risk assessment.[6] He has also spoken on the dangers of space junk and called for more and better monitoring. Kaku is generally a vigorous supporter of the exploration of outer space, believing that the ultimate destiny of the human race may lie in the stars; but he is critical of some of the cost-ineffective missions and methods of NASA.
Kaku credits his anti-nuclear war position to programs he heard on the Pacifica Radio network, during his student years in California. It was during this period that he made the decision to turn away from a career developing the next generation of nuclear weapons in association with Dr. Teller and focused on research, teaching, writing and media. Dr. Kaku joined with others such as Dr. Helen Caldicott, Jonathan Schell, Peace Action and was instrumental in building a global anti-nuclear weapons movement that arose in the 1980s, during the administration of US President Ronald Reagan.
Kaku was a board member of Peace Action and on the board of radio station WBAI-FM in New York City where he originated his long running program, Explorations, that focused on the issues of science, war, peace and the environment."
never heard of him. thanks for the heads up.
:)
Prometheuspan said this on April 19, 2010 at 8:10 am | Reply

General
1. Sociology is the study of groups of people, how they interact, how they create and hold group structures and group identities, how they band together, how they deal with conflicts, and everything that whole groups of people do.
2. Sociology studies social units such as families, packs, tribes, villages, cities, hives, herds, and mobs.
3. The precarious balance of true democracy is that society must balance social welfare and social support and services against the counterweight of free enterprise. If the balance falls off towards social welfare, the society falls into entropy as the government destroys private enterprise to fund social services. The result is socialism, which always decays into its own form of totalitarianism. If the balance falls off the other way, then free enterprise results in a plutocracy and then an oligarchy followed by mild oligarchic mercantilist fascism and then a severe oligarchic fascism. Socialism is not a whole goal or endpoint we wish to arrive at, but the system "as is" is out of balance resulting in a corporate oligarchy. The only way to fix this is to return the power back to the people and restore a genuine democracy.
4. Sociology understands that social phenomenon are very complicated, and that social problems have many underlying contributing causes for any given effect. Oversimplification, blaming, black and white thinking, and false dilemmas do not help to solve problems in a real way.
5. People are conditioned to behave by their social environment. Personal responsibility is important, but where statistics show a trend in negative or antisocial behaviors, Society as a whole must shoulder some part of the blame and work to improve conditions socially just as it works to rehabilitate the criminal, so should it seek to rehabilitate itself.
6. People have several layers of personal space, a psychological truth which is mostly subliminal, but which nonetheless governs almost all social interactions. People should learn to consciously understand personal space to cut down on miscommunication and stress due to problems handling personal space issues.
7. The best way to run a democratic system is by using consensus process to the point of a clear and overwhelming (two thirds) majority. Consensus process means talking about and working out issues and differences to arrive at a mutually beneficial compromise much of the time.
8. The best guardian of the balance between socialism and free enterprise is intellectual meritocracy. A functional society should be free of propaganda, should not have anti-intellectualism, and should consider ideas on their rational merit, not according to what
others have to say or social pressures, but by means of a reproducible rational problem solving application of intelligence and knowledge.
Sociology Introduction;
http://www.thomsonedu.com/thomsonedu/discipline.do?disciplinenumber=14
http://www.polity.co.uk/sociology/sociology_txtbks.asp
http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/007240535x/student_view0/chapter1/chapter_summary.html
http://www.sdsmt.edu/online-courses/is/soc100/Intro.htm
http://www.sdsmt.edu/online-courses/is/soc100/course.html
http://www2.wwnorton.com/college/soc/giddens5/
http://www.camden.rutgers.edu/~wood/207syl.htm
http://core.ecu.edu/soci/juskaa/SOCI2110/soci1.htm
Types of Government;
http://stutzfamily.com/mrstutz/WorldAffairs/typesofgovt.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/find_out/guides/world/united_nations/types_of_government/newsid_2151000/2151570.stm
http://home.earthlink.net/~kingsidebishop/id2.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_of_government
http://www.twyman-whitney.com/americancitizen/foundations/types_of_government.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_forms_of_government
Social Conditioning;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_conditioning
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070406120833AAzVVlZ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_learning_theory
http://www.dailyom.com/articles/2006/4952.html
http://changingminds.org/techniques/conversion/social_psychological_conditioning.htm
http://www.winthrop.edu/english/nosearch/core/social.htm
Pavlov;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Pavlov
http://www.psyhist.com/conditioning.html
http://www.sntp.net/behaviorism/pavlov.htm
http://users.cwnet.com/phelps/pavlov.htm
http://forerunner.com/forerunner/X0497_DeMar_-_Behaviorism.html
http://tip.psychology.org/skinner.html
http://www.brembs.net/operant/
http://psychology.about.com/od/behavioralpsychology/a/introopcond.htm
Prometheuspan said this on April 19, 2010 at 8:20 am | Reply

So we are left with some gaping holes in not only the zeitgeist movements forum, their leadership and their claims, but we are also left with the same huge discrepencies in the venus project.
Not only have we discussed another futurist [Michio Kaku] above who is academically proven and tested in many fields, but is peer reviewed and trusted due to his interaction with charitable and peaceful organisations.
We have also addressed some points that are completely unscientific as regards to the entire ZM/VP cult.
For those who have more to discuss feel free to add them to this post and list because lets be honest we haven't even scratched the surface with this post.
anticultist said this on April 19, 2010 at 8:21 am | Reply

Here's a website that might be of interest in case you haven't heard of it. http://www.theresourcebasedeconomy.org
This website has declared its stand where it has no connection with TVP or TZM and even has a page that shows their Letter of Protest to U.S. Trademark Office against RBE Trademark.
They also put in comparisons of their understandings regarding Spirituality, Technology and Sustainability vs those of TZM's. Whether their intention is more genuine than TVP or TZM's, I don't know.
Secruoser said this on April 19, 2010 at 11:41 am | Reply

http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/01/07/legal-contest-of-trademarking-resource-based-economy/
anticultist said this on April 19, 2010 at 11:50 am | Reply

Fresco in his 1969 book "Looking Forward" assumes the infallibility of computer models in predicting the future. Specifically you see an example of that belief on pp. 88-9. This runs completely against the experience of computer modeling in the real world. I haven't seen anything in Fresco's recent pronouncements to indicate an awareness of chaos theory, which deals with the limits of our knowledge of the future. Not to mention that some important classes of computational problems lack known algorithms to solve them efficiently, no matter how fast computers become.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory
Mark Plus said this on April 19, 2010 at 2:37 pm | Reply

Roxanne, Peter and Jacque will be doing a "lecture" in Dublin on the 14th of August this year. If they or any of their little minions are on any radio stations or TV programs(highly unlikely but these things can happen) ill expose this fraud live on air to get rid of any credibility they have outside the internet (and probably recommend this site). Heres a list of places they are going on tour for the year:
http://www.thevenusproject.com/world-tour-lecture-dates
Any attempts to advertise this nonsense outside the web should be quashed instantly with the truth. The fact that I'm a third year science student should give me more credibility than those three muppets. Even if they don't go on air we should still ring after these public appearances and do our own "awareness campaign" and record every minute of it for Youtube and here. I don't want to sound anti-social nor do I support censorship but the sooner mainstream society realises how much of a sham this is the better.
Shane Nolan said this on April 19, 2010 at 4:27 pm | Reply

Way to provide a technical counter-argument to the self-sustaining circular city system, and cybernetics!
{who cares about your fantasy shitty that doesnt exist and wont ever exist ?}
Every one of you posting in this article is ignorant of engineering, computation and cybernetics
.
{because those subjects prove eveything right? idiot}
{edited because you have been rude from post 1 till this post no.5 is it ?, you are lucky I am even allowing you to be ridiculed here}
Right. I forgot about that.
As for you, prometheuspan:
Architectural nightmare? You need a premise in order to support your conclusion.
So provide me your premise and then I will take this claim seriously.
I bet you would've thought that Sydney Opera House was an architectural nightmare too. I don't blame you, if you have no knowledge of structural engineering than you have no idea what is capable and applicable in terms of safely designing a structure.
{Prometheuspan can answer for himself}
You can make baseless claims ALL YOU WANT guys, in fact, I love that you do, because it just reasserts the validity of the Venus Project to me. Ask yourself, is your blog really providing the evidence of why the Venus Project can't work? No, it's providing the evidence to skeptical third parties that you are acting like me cos I am a tool yada yada yada yad yada
{BULLS*** you are just a biased troll whos presence I tolerate, now behave yourself or be ignored, thems your rules right ? ?}
If you guys want to see the blueprints of Jacques designs (you don't need to by the way as any engineer would tell you they are possible based on their knowledge base), prove to him and Roxanne that you are trustworthy (so you won't sell off the unpatented designs) and that you have the knowledge base to understand the technical aspects of the Project. This is how the fundamental members of http://www.thevenusprojectdesignaresuckerscaughtinascam.com team have been able to see their blueprints.

{BULLS*** you live in cuckoo land, I have a bridge I am selling want to buy it ?}
However, I think you'll have a damn hard time gaining their trust in order to see those documents at this point, because you have dedicated an entire blog to the defamation of his character.
{BULLS*** he doesnt want anyone to see it because it will get ripped apart by his peers}
Kris Paterson said this on April 19, 2010 at 4:47 pm | Reply

I believe in hypothetical robots that will serve me drinks by the poolside of my free circular dream house. I don't require evidence. I'm a Venus Project true believer!
Anathema said this on April 19, 2010 at 7:01 pm | Reply

Jacque has a line drawing of a city, made with pens and a compass and a protractor, apparently its so super top secret he lets anyone see it who he trusts, but he wont let anyone academic see it and review it.
See its so super important that it will radically alter everyones lives for the better, and save the world. But if you dont pay interest in his stories and follow him he is prepared to let it remain hidden and allow the world to fail.
Thats the exact Anti thesis of humanitarian, but in all truth he has a drawing...wow !!!
Kris you are a carbon copy blueprint of all the other gullible fools I have met who believe this story from second hand sources. And if per chance you have physically seen it with your own eyes, it cant be that impressive or you would all be trying to get your shit built right now.
Seriously you are simply unworthy of discussion here.
anticultist said this on April 19, 2010 at 7:50 pm | Reply

"if you guys want to see the blueprints of Jacques designs (you don't need to by the way as any engineer would tell you they are possible based on their knowledge base), prove to him and Roxanne that you are trustworthy (so you won't sell off the unpatented designs) and that you have the knowledge base to understand the technical aspects of the Project."
Why is Jacque Fresco so worried about people stealing his designs? Can't he just patent them and hire a lawyer?
And why would it be bad if someone did steal his designs? Let's say that a car company ripped off his idea for putting radar devices in the car to prevent them from hitting each other. Who care's if the car companies would make money off of this -people's lives could be saved by this. Why would he hide away his supposedly genius inventions like this, it seems selfish.
Sky said this on April 19, 2010 at 8:33 pm | Reply

Many of the Jacque fanatics and fools call him "the Leonardo Da Vinci" (even William Gazecki)yet many seem to be unable grasp the concept that even most if not all of Da Vinci's "science" and designs are impractical and wouldnt have made it past the modern day peer review process(and he may have just have been as stubborn as Jacque).Oh and Kris most of those houses would be a nightmare especially those egg shaped apartment blocks.Hell they are so bad I never let anyone I knew see "Future By Design" or Zeitgeist Addendum or indeed anything related to TVP at all when I was movementarian(I just talked about the concept without naming names or websites - except the splinter groups I now help).
Shane Nolan said this on April 19, 2010 at 8:56 pm | Reply

I shouldnt think Kris will be returning, he has been told not to bother with us by Merola and his members, as were crazy for asking for scientific evidence of their claims before we believe their nonsense.
But as far as Kris is concerned the responsibility is on us to disprove their rhetoric is possible before they provide any evidence.
Strange way of using the scientific method I must say.
anticultist said this on April 19, 2010 at 9:11 pm | Reply

Where is Jaque's memory metals cars in real time? Where are we going to get energy from? Where are we gonig to get the resources to build this? Who will build it? Where is the automation going to come from? Who will build the robots? This is lame as hell Jaque is stuck in the 1950′s mickey mouse club... he is nothing but a snake oils sales man
Billll said this on April 20, 2010 at 12:20 am | Reply

It will take time and struggle, along with every great thing presented in this world so far. Those who attempt to debase the ideologies of this movement, debase humanity's chance at survival based on an economy of responsibility rather than blind consumption.
Unless you can offer a system which takes care for (by design) the whole of humanity and leads us into a future based on technology, progress, peace, and understanding, then this "attack" is nothing more than verbal masturbation.
someguy said this on June 4, 2010 at 4:43 pm | Reply

Well you are certainly the prototype cult member. First you use the old line of 'if you cant offer up an alternative all encompassing world saving idea you are incorrect to disagree with ours' which is utter bullshit I dont need to provide one the burden of proof is on you. Secondly you use the party line rhetoric 'verbal masterbation', you would never use this shit if your guru hadn't said it so behave yourself you idiot.
All the evidence provided here literally pulls the venus project and the zeitgeist movement limb from limb. Now the only masterbation going on here is you and your fellow members over some piss poor drawings and videos. Whilst falling into the belief that Fresco is some kind of genius for ripping off other peoples ideas.
anticultist said this on June 4, 2010 at 6:43 pm

I seriously hope Kris can prove us wrong by presenting us with scientific proves instead of his own arguments. I don't mind being wrong either if TVP can finally proves to us everything we want to know. After all, we're not against anyone that sincerely works towards RBE and can provide genuine proofs right? I mean, why the hell are they so against people wanting proofs? We are just thinking critically after all, therefore we ask questions and want answers!
Sky is so right. I mean, if there's really something that's good for everyone, why hide it? (Unless he wants the 'profit', of course)
The thing is, they seem to say that everyone is equal, has equal access to everything, bla bla bla but they don't practice what they preach. If they hold any kind of reservation towards the public, it means that they're being judgmental on who can see the blueprints and who can't. Ego? Elitism? It's just unacceptable.
Secruoser said this on April 20, 2010 at 12:34 am | Reply

"Every one of you posting in this article is ignorant of engineering, computation and cybernetics"
No, I'm easily the most well educated person I know of involved in any of these movements regarding engineering, especially
structural engineering. I have been paid for my blue prints for housing structures, Can anyone else make that claim?
"As for you, prometheuspan:
Architectural nightmare? You need a premise in order to support your conclusion."
Now you are going to try to tell me how logic works?
I don't need any premise, all that anybody needs to see the truth of this statement is to look at his bulbular designs with lower spaces mushrooming inward, impossibly not supporting upper areas.
"So provide me your premise and then I will take this claim seriously."
Provide me a reason to bother with you. I don't jump through hoops for trolls. The truth I stated is self evident, and should be even
to those who don't know structural engineering, by merely looking at Jaques assorted paper models.
"I bet you would've thought that Sydney Opera House was an architectural nightmare too."
Your line of argument here is merely a presumptive ad hominem.
" I don't blame you, if you have no knowledge of structural engineering than you have no idea what is capable and applicable in terms of safely designing a structure."
I'm a paid architect and structural engineer.
"You can make baseless claims ALL YOU WANT guys, in fact, I love that you do, because it just reasserts the validity of the Venus Project to me. Ask yourself, is your blog really providing the evidence of why the Venus Project can't work?"
Yes, its been redundantly proven. You see, its not just an physical problem, its a social problem, and TVP gets an F for everything social.
"No, it's providing the evidence to skeptical third parties that you are acting like immature jackasses who are slandering the individuals behind the project instead of the technical aspects of it, which the project is reliant on."
straw man, ad hominem. They say in logic class that when somebody has nothing but those to offer you it proves that they are without the ability to reason or make an argument.
"If you guys want to see the blueprints of Jacques designs (you don't need to by the way as any engineer would tell you they are possible based on their knowledge base), "
Except for all REAL engineers, including me.
"prove to him and Roxanne that you are trustworthy (so you won't sell off the unpatented designs) and that you have the knowledge base to understand the technical aspects of the Project. This is how the fundamental members of "
Back to reality. There are no such designs, or if there were, the reason why he won't show them is because he knows they wouldn't
pass muster for structural integrity. He knows that he doesn't know and he knows that anybody who does have depth knowledge would see his drawing as little more than the equal of a hobbyist project. Not a serious design.
"However, I think you'll have a damn hard time gaining their trust in order to see those documents at this point,"
I'm not interested in seeing a pencil line drawing by a man whose paper models are transparently kooky.
If such a drawing exists, he keeps it hidden because any real analysis of it would show that its garbage.
" because you have dedicated an entire blog to the defamation of his character."
No, Actually, I like and even respect Jaques for what he has in fact realistically done. I know the difference between his real works and the cults claimed ones, and I know where he has made errors. I would be happy to help him, even to design a real design in autocad, which i will be doing any how. The problem is that his "movement" is a fascist cult, and that is chiefly VTVs fault.
Prometheuspan said this on April 20, 2010 at 1:22 am | Reply

To the members of this blog;
Lets not get distracted. We need to discuss specific details
of flaws and errors and science buffoonery.
To return back to my bullet point number one;
"1. The assorted models shown and built by Jaques are in many cases architectural nightmares, which no real architect would design that way and no structural engineer would even try to vindicate."
The first rule of structural engineering is that you have to have
solid substance underneath things or they tend to fall. This is not hard to understand and does not require a degree in structural engineering.
Looking at these designs and accepting his windows and doors as hints to scale, either of two things must be true about those designs. Either they have walls that are too thin and an exterior shape that is too implausible, or there is next to no living room inside because the walls have to be thick enough to support such unlikely shapes.
This is not architecture, it is not structural engineering, and it is not the buildings of the future. Its a man who never grew out of legos who did manage to opt into paper models.
If I still had my legos, I'd still play with them. I used to have so many legos it would cover my bedroom floor two inches deep.
Theres nothing wrong per sey with such a hobby- unless you try
to tell me that this is somehow representative of real architecture or real structural engineering.
I don't fault him for playing with his toys. I don't fault him for having a creative hobby and an active imagination. But when i played with legos I never lost sight of the fact that it was an exercise in fantasy, I never lost touch with reality.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_engineering
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_failure
http://www.springerlink.com/content/l0251245145h8188/
Prometheuspan said this on April 20, 2010 at 1:36 am | Reply

"2. Jaques drawings of Hovercraft, while interesting concept art, include fatal flaws of design including completely flat "lifting body" flying wings."
http://www.thevenusproject.com/technology/transportation
I like some of his design concepts, there is no doubt about it that he was working towards the future when he drew some of these things- I assume back in the 60s or 70s.
However, where is the lift on some of these lifting bodies?
Maybe hes assuming no lifting body because it hovers. Which I suppose is fine. But it seems more likely to me that he just doesn't understand aero dynamics well enough to give us real wing shapes.
I design Hover craft. With redundant thrust systems so that if one
engine fails the result isn't sudden death.
His hover craft seem to universally opt for three vertical thrust systems, one in the nose and two on the wings. So if any one of those vertical thrust systems fails, the craft falls. This may seem like no big deal in an age where helicopters manage. And maybe it is.
But if he wanted to impress upon us realism and such, you'd think he would opt for a real wing shape, (not just george jetson pointyness) and multiple thrust systems for vectored thrust.
The lack of these things date such designs and limit them to being concept art.
Prometheuspan said this on April 20, 2010 at 1:55 am | Reply

The most ridiculous idea has to be the flying windmill (described, but not pictured on the website). I've found it on another:
http://www.laesieworks.com/ifo/lib/design-pict/venus-chopper.jpg
Tip-jet rotors (too small on Fresco's design) are an old, tried, tested and abandoned idea.
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/helicopters/tip-jet/hoe1.jpg
During testing, it was found that tip jets caused too much drag on the rotor and made autorotation difficult in the event of an emergency landing.
Not to mention another obvious problem - how exactly do you get into it?
John Galt said this on June 14, 2010 at 11:47 pm | Reply

"But as far as Kris is concerned the responsibility is on us to disprove their rhetoric is possible before they provide any evidence.
Strange way of using the scientific method I must say."
In formal logic thats called reversing the burden of proof.
And TVP absolutely relies upon that tactic as one of the legs on their charlatans scam table.
Prometheuspan said this on April 20, 2010 at 1:59 am | Reply

"3. Jaques is no sociologist or Psychohistorian. Should there be a collapse, the result would not be RBEs, but break down into anarchy. The idea of a post collapse RBE is simply a means to the end of avoiding responsibility to make real change now, and puts
TVP on the same footing as any other Armageddeon theology. In fact, TVP then ends up being very much exactly a Zionist Armageddon Cult, redressed for atheists instead of Christians, it follows the main points of Armageddon Cults point for point."
Armageddons Cults
http://ty.rannosaur.us/10-doomsday-cults/
http://www.freeminds.org/psychology/cults/the-armageddon-syndrome.html
http://karisable.com/crartrel.htm
Zionism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism
Collapse theory
http://www.marxists.org/archive/pannekoe/1934/collapse.htm
And in depth threads on this topic;
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=11&t=1561
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=29&t=1626&hilit=collapse
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=11&t=1561
Prometheuspan said this on April 20, 2010 at 2:22 am | Reply

"This is lame as hell Jaque is stuck in the 1950's mickey mouse club... he is nothing but a snake oils sales man"
- and Peter a freelance snake oil advertiser.The height of these guys mainstream publicity will the south park episode all four of them (including Acharya) win the biggest douchebag in the universe.
Shane Nolan said this on April 20, 2010 at 8:24 am | Reply

I find it hard to believe that Jacque is a qualified air conditioning expert, an acoustic consultant, an electrical engineer, a plumbing consultant, a sewage systems expert, etc..
I am willing to bet this blueprint of his has none of the above conceptualised into it. For me I am quite certain if it exists he only has a line drawing on architectural blue paper of a dome with living and working partitions in it.
I wonder what the chances that he has planned technically for the wiring conduits of all electrical systems/sockets/fixtures. The plumbing systems, the air conditioning systems, the lighting fixtures, the sewage system, underground cabling/tubing, and any acoustic baffling and treatment required for the public spaces, including intercoms and emergency PA systems. [probably nil]
And for all of this to be legitimately safe and conform to health and safety standards as well as engineering society standards.
I bet he has not even considered most of this and has not even put it into his little drawings.
anticultist said this on April 20, 2010 at 12:42 pm | Reply

Normally, for large scale projects like that, and even usually for a large house, they actually have different sets of drawings for different main systems. I don't know what he has or what he doesn't.
Its not hard for me to imagine somebody covering most of those bases in theory. When I did work for a mansion outside of Denver, My unfamiliarity with plumbing was one of my largest obstacles.
But yes, to be accepted and official and pass muster, and to get a licensed Architect to sign off on it, It had to include such details. Wiring is a pain, and went on a separate copy. Plumbing and air ducting went on a different copy.
We don't know what he does and does not have and it makes little sense to speculate. What we do know is that to judge by the rest of the work thats been made available, we can guess that his treatment is cosmetic only, and does not include details that would not be seen from the exterior.
The point to be made here is that designing a building, especially a large one, is a hundred times more complicated than just deciding what it will look like. And we have no evidence to show us that any such models or designs have ever gone beyond that level.
Aside from this, I would like to see us explore some of these other science issues in depth on this thread. Lets not give them the easy way out to just call us haters and propaganda artists by being like that.
Instead, lets approach this from a rational and clear mind. Lets be the change that we wish to see by demonstrating what focus on science issues looks like.
Their threads on the subject are laughable to me, and don't have any content.
http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=231&id=249863#250254
this thread stars ourobouris aka kris making his report to them, and PJ telling him not to bother. However, they don't try to address any of our points, and the thread goes on as per usual with chit chatting and BS and dah dah dahs.
http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=6&id=249763
This thread is equally vacuous, consisting of laymens exaggerations and misinterpretations of scientific method, and chit chat blithering.
Our challenge here is to create content that is compelling. We don't accomplish that by making assumptions, or chiming in with our Angst. TVP threads are people chiming in on autopilot. We need to put deep thought into these threads if we are going to win this.
TVP is a dangerous and abusive cult. We need to make a strong case for that, not restate the obvious emotively. If we are going to save people from it or wake them up, we have to focus like they are incapable of. We have to show what the real alternative is.
And we can't allow PJ to even appear to be right about us.
"This blog is uncritical, pointless ranting and should be ignored. The entire goal is to take minor issues and twist and blow them out of proportion in erroneous ways - basic propaganda."
No, the point is to point out fundamental flaws in a way that is overwhelmingly compelling to anyone who comes here to read.
"We should not bring any attention to such worthless venting. "
And we should not allow ourselves to merely vent worthlessly.
"Giving this person attention only satisfies his arrogance that things posted or invented are actually having an effect in his disinfo campaign. "
The disinfo campaign is totally theirs.
" The very basis is hatefilled from the start,"
if that has been true and to the degree that it has been true, we need to wake up. I don't hate PJ or Jaques, both of whom are admirable people on most accounts. I don't hate VTV who is a despicable person on most counts. I understand them and their natures, and I know with certainty what they really are and what they are really doing- which is collect money off of an atheist version of Zionist Armageddonism.
"with zero objective reasoning and a direct disregard for the extensive supportive information I have put forward "
I think this makes a fine challenge. Lets take on those lectures word for word shall we?
They won't turn out to say much of anything meaningful to the problem of why they have a trollish bandwagon running their site and abusing the public.
"in the 4 lectures I have done and the lifes work of Fresco as a prolific inventor and social theorist. "
Jaques is not really an inventor, hes a drawer and a brain stormer. So that claim is bogus. Show me his patents. Oh, right, hes not got any. And almost all of the things they try to credit him with were in fact thought up by somebody else, like Bill mollison or Buckminster Fuller.
Jaques claims to be an inventor however are rock solid compared to the ludicrous claims that hes any kind of social theorist. TVP is a sociology joke, a dystopian nightmare in living proof of why such movements need REAL Sociologists.
Prometheuspan said this on April 20, 2010 at 8:46 pm | Reply

= {BULLS*** you are just a biased troll whos presence I tolerate, now behave yourself or be ignored, thems your rules right ? ?} =
Sorry. You don't have any posting rules/terms provided anywhere on your blog, so I was under the impression that I could conduct myself any way that I wish.
However, since this you've asked me to "behave" I'll keep a polite tone if that's what you want.
= his bulbular designs with lower
spaces mushrooming inward, impossibly not supporting upper areas. =
I haven't seen any models or designs that fit your description. Please link me to an image or a video that shows a dome design without support.
= Show me his patents. =
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=7lRYAAAAEBAJ&dq=jacque+fresco
Kris Paterson said this on April 21, 2010 at 4:16 am | Reply

Ive seen those patents, they are from the 1940s and all his others are from the 1960′s, and anyone with any sense will know that varying the air flow over the surface of the wing will cause pressure differences above and below, this will lead to instability of flight, and they were more than likely not implemented due to their complete unsafe design at the time.
Perhaps modern day aircraft with computer systems and fly by wire could utilise something like this, but I am almost certain that it would be pretty tricky to implement. But with mechanical parts such as this [a mechanical pump/jack] you run into dangerous links in the chain, if said part broke/malfunctioned the wing would remain in a potentially unstable and performance degrading position. [Not to say a failsafe could not be implemented]
The only other patents he has are graphic design trays, and a camera reel changer.
Nothing that is going to dramatically alter the turn of events for humanity you have to honest here.
anticultist said this on April 21, 2010 at 1:52 pm | Reply

He has a lot of patents which aren't available on the Google Patent site (as it is still in beta). Roxanne will produce documentation for them upon request, but I think it would be easier for you to just request them from the US Patent Office.
To clarify, the wing is from 1945. The (odd) designs for trays and a cigar holder (?) are from the 1960′s.
As for the concept of variable camber, it's ingenious. I don't think you understand how adjusting and maximizing camber would create different options for the aircraft (greater lift, or higher speeds). If it was constantly readjusting of course that would create instability, but that's not what it would be doing. Re-read the abstract of the design.
This is a modern, more technical example applied to supersonic aircraft:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-53_Active_Aeroelastic_Wing
Kris Paterson said this on April 21, 2010 at 3:11 pm | Reply

I have read all that, and I dont think you understand you are talking to an ex Royal Air Force mechanic, who studied aerodynamics and aircraft.
The X53 discusses torque in the wings, and uses slats to offset aileron drag which causes twisting and torque in the lateral dimension of the aircraft, this also affects the stability of the wings due to malleable materials. The design of the X53 is not like Jacques concept, it requires tougher wing skins and electronic components to offset any changes caused by the front edge slats and ailerons.
The fact camber wings were used on biplanes and invented in 1920 - 30 should give you an indicator as to how old the concept is, there is nothing ingenious about it at all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_camber_wing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smooth_camber_change
http://www.aircrash.org/burnelli/ch_gx3.htm
anticultist said this on April 21, 2010 at 3:16 pm | Reply

At the time he patented that, there were no mechanized variable camber wings.
Either way, this interaction is futile. You can continue to perpetuate the notion that TVP is a scam, and that Zeitgeist is a mind heist, I don't care anymore.
The principles of a RBE are what I'm always going to be working toward. Currently, in my mind, working toward creating a network of self-sustaining circular city systems makes the most sense in terms of creating the foundations of a RBE. It isn't because I am blindly following everything that the Movement advocates, and TVP suggests, it's because I have come to the understanding on my own, and I agree with it.
As long as I continue to think critically, I will never be a slave to anyone. If I ever disagree with anything decided by TVP or TZM then I will voice that. If I ever feel personally exploited by them, I will voice that as well.
I think most intelligent members of the Movement would, too. Not everyone involved is a conspiracy theorist, brainwashed utopian socialist hippie tree hugging communist - insert any derogatory straw man that you can think of -
Anyway, I'm done with this. If you must satisfy your ego about it Paul, go ahead. Think of this as a win and think of what your doing as a benefit to people and society. I could care less. The fact is you're on a smear campaign and you'll probably never be reasoned with until a test city is erected. So, until then, take care.
Kris Paterson said this on April 21, 2010 at 6:08 pm | Reply

At the time he patented that, there were no mechanized variable camber wings.
I have already shown you that there were with the GX3, and in fact the mechanical ailerons and leading edge components used in Burnellis aircraft are the exact concept and ideas utilised in todays modern aircraft. Jacques were never used, ask yourself why ?
http://www.aircrash.org/burnelli/ch_gx3.htm

Burnelli U.S. Patent #1,917,428
issued July 11, 1933
"This sketch shows the variable camber and wing area mechanism within the wing of the Burnelli"
- Aviation, Dec. 14, 1929.
anticultist said this on April 21, 2010 at 6:28 pm | Reply

Not everyone involved is a conspiracy theorist, brainwashed utopian socialist hippie tree hugging communist - insert any derogatory straw man that you can think of -
And I have not said this either, you are using the strawman here.
If you must satisfy your ego about it Paul, go ahead.
I have just used evidence and facts to disprove everything you claimed about Jacques patents, where is the ego in that ?
The fact is you're on a smear campaign and you'll probably never be reasoned with until a test city is erected.
If you call presenting counter evidence and information against your movement a smear campaign so be it, but people who agree with the information and find it interesting see it otherwise. So take care yourself.
As long as I continue to think critically, I will never be a slave to anyone. If I ever disagree with anything decided by TVP or TZM then I will voice that. If I ever feel personally exploited by them, I will voice that as well.
Thats exactly what is happenning right here on this blog, and has been attempted on their forum too numerous times to mention, by too numerous people to name.
anticultist said this on April 21, 2010 at 6:37 pm | Reply

Okay, Now I'm impressed actually, because finally somebody shows me some of these patents. And thats neat. And I said I didn't think he had any patents- as none had ever been shown to me or linked to via the site. So I was wrong, and, I will admit the mistake.
However, inventing things that never get used for not being practical is kind of making my point here. Having a patent is one
thing. Having the world actually have working models of that patent is something else altogether.
"At the time he patented that, there were no mechanized variable camber wings."
Okay, you have us there.
"Either way, this interaction is futile. You can continue to perpetuate the notion that TVP is a scam,"
To be a scam, all it has to do is be anti social and abusive to its participants. Jaques positive real contributions and ideas
don't change that.
"and that Zeitgeist is a mind heist, I don't care anymore."
Why futile rhetoric? you do care, or you wouldn't be here.
"The principles of a RBE are what I'm always going to be working toward. "
Me also.
"Currently, in my mind, working toward creating a network of self-sustaining circular city systems makes the most sense in terms of creating the foundations of a RBE."
Anything that is built will end up dystopic as long as tvp and etc cannot manage to address or solve human and social problems with more than abuse, lies, passive aggressive manipulation, ad hominem attacks, and paranoid delusions.
"It isn't because I am blindly following everything that the Movement advocates, and TVP suggests, it's because I have come to the understanding on my own, and I agree with it."
So do I. Agreeing with RBEs however is not the same thing as understanding TVP is a scam. You keep pointing at their carrot.
Yeah, its a REAL CARROT. But you refuse to look at the stick.
ITS A REAL STICK.
"As long as I continue to think critically,"
this has yet to be proven.
" I will never be a slave to anyone. If I ever disagree with anything decided by TVP or TZM then I will voice that."
Then they will diabolize you and ban you. Discussion of disagreements is not allowed on their forum. Its their way or the highway, and no middle ground.
" If I ever feel personally exploited by them, I will voice that as well."
Good luck with that.
"I think most intelligent members of the Movement would, too."
No, Nanos, whos IQ is at least 160, and who is easily one of the smartest people around, has to use his intelligence to play their
games, not voice his opinions. Ask him, he will tell you. Its like inhabiting a room with a drunken codependent. If you mention any one of 101 different things, they explode through the roof and start throwing plates at you.
" Not everyone involved is a conspiracy theorist, brainwashed utopian socialist hippie tree hugging communist - insert any derogatory straw man that you can think of -"
By definition, everyone involved at the top is involved in a trollish bandwagon, and most of the participants are in fact scammed and duped, including you.
"Anyway, I'm done with this."
See ya for round three tomorrow..;)
" If you must satisfy your ego about it Paul, go ahead. Think of this as a win and think of what your doing as a benefit to people and society. I could care less. The fact is you're on a smear campaign and you'll probably never be reasoned with until a test city is erected."
When will that be? post apocalypse? After the collapse?
And how are they going to manage anything that big when they always alienate real professionals for being abusive + paranoid delusional ?
TVP will never be anything more than a three tier cult of personality video club. Thats the very top of their competency
level and one step beyond it.
Prometheuspan said this on April 21, 2010 at 10:29 pm | Reply

I know prometheuspan they have serious flaws and are foolishly walking into the mainstream (just youtube search zeitgeist on tv) without adressing them at all .If they were in any way honest about what they are promoting then they would address them. As I outlined in my rather hastily compiled contribution here we are going to end up with the same thing we had with the environmentalist movement where at first everyone was enamoured but finally saw it for the empty shell it was and now mainstream society is apathetic after being saturated with this nonsense while Al Gore still flies around the world spouting the same hot air over and over again.Be afraid....be very afraid:
Shane Nolan said this on April 22, 2010 at 2:44 pm | Reply


Anticultist blog comments continue...
http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/forum/5539/archiving-anticultist-blog-on-sp/3/#reply-919f8268



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The Burger KingPosted: Jun 19, 2013 - 23:15
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I can't stop posting pictures of poop, what the fuck is wrong with me?

Level: 5
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Anticultist blog comments continue...


ok this greek guy on tv... weve all been laughing at this, its possible its a bad translation but lets assess this videos subs.
The guy claims there are 700,000 members, is this a fact ? I am unsure if thats true really because I dont see 700,000 people attending z days or on the forums.
He claims there are scientists in almost every chapter working on it and we all know this is a complete fabrication, and they are anti credentialist so thats not gonna help recruit them
He claims the atlas city is in new zealand, and then makes further insults out inferring TVP/TZM are responsible and part of it even though they have seperated and deny all other groups. This is at best insincere at worst taking credit for others hard work.
He claims it is open source even though there has been a huge fight with rbose about this very issue
He claims that all decisions are made by the members and the end product is from them, even though jacque wont change the script of the outcomes and objectives
He claims they are buying land to build a city even though tvp will not build a city as its all about awareness for a long long time
He claims there is no leader even though jacque, roxanne and peter dictate the entire process.
All of these claims are stretching the truth if not down right fabrications.
or maybe the greek chapter have no idea whats really going on in zeitgeist due to poor communication ?
If this guy is a coordinator of an official chapter or an official greek spokesperson for this movement, then they really should make sure they have fully researched and got their facts straight before putting them onto national tv and then the internet.
Anyone got a transcript thats better than this videos ?
anticultist said this on April 28, 2010 at 1:19 am

Prometheuspan, please connect with me on facebook http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Venus-Project-1984/136090816410864?ref=ts
my profile: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1663961068
I want to counter the TVP argument and could use your help. thank you!
james kush said this on July 4, 2010 at 11:25 pm | Reply

I have been giving a lot of thought to the problem of TVP and how to best address the problem and solve it with the greatest
degree of efficiency.
There are several conclusions I have come to and I would like to share them with you.
1. TVP is on the face of it based on true and good principles. The top Core Axioms of TVP are actually true.
These include Axioms centered around defining the problems with the current economic system and Axioms defining a better
system. Defenders and Apologists of TVP want to think about, focus on, and argue the validity of those axioms. We need
to be clear with them that those axioms are true, that we understand them to be true, and that there is no contest over
those Axioms.
2. Jaques is actually a very intelligent and very admirable person. However, there are real limits to what he actually does
know and can be competent for. These limits include anything regarding sociology, systems theory, game theory, simulation,
or psychology. Jaques is an excellent artist, and for a hobbyist hes an enlightened civil Engineer. However, hes not an actual
Civil Engineer, hes a hobbyist. He is a visionary, and he is absolutely right about Economics, Energy, and the general direction
which we need to go in to evolve economically. What he does not know anything about and can make no serious claim on
is sociology, psychohistory, or etc. In short, because he cries wolf and inflates his real competence with exaggerations and lies,
he makes himself suspicious for all of his claims even though some of them may be somewhat true.
3. The core weakness and core fallacy of TVP is not in its core ideals, but in its handling of social reality and social aspects
of running a movement. The difference between a social movement and a Cult, at the core of it, is whether or not the organization acts to empower the participants, or instead acts only to en-richen and empower the top echelon. TVP is a cult because it allows
itself to be abusive, because the admins on the forum and other places are ad hominem wielding, codependency power trippers,
not moderators, and because the net result of their paranoid delusions and ego trips is that they infallibly alienate anyone who has
an actual education, or anyone whos interested in real collaboration, or paths of meaningful right action. TVP is not a cult for having false core axioms. It is a cult for being manipulative, abusive, dishonest, and evil towards and about people in general.
4. This cannot be rationally denied. The people close to the movement like Nanos Or Gavin have to tip toe and walk on eggshells
and constantly play at self censorship in a minefield of forbidden topics, forbidden issues, and forbidden people. The threads on the
forum do not lead to collaboration and are merely chat threads, not productive, and not collaborative. The good ideas of the participants are given lip service, but then fall off the thread list and into TVPs memory hole.
5. Ad hominem attacks, however much they feel good for relieving ones annoyance at the cult, Do not promote an understanding
or lead other people to leave the Cult. The tactics we need to employ are the standard Anti Cult tactics, and that means that we
need to consider people actively involved in TVP and their psychology, and build bridges and escape hatches out of the mental cages that are comfortable and inviting to them. This requires a strong focus on the core flaws, and even stronger focus on being

diplomatically centered and in service to escapees who may often be confrontational. If TVP can easily dismiss us by calling us
a smear campaign and a troll game or etc, and have that stick because we are indeed speaking trollese due to being pissed off,
we only play into their game and the sleight of mind. We have to be INORDINANTLY NICE AND DIPLOMATIC TOWARDS CULT MEMBERS IN ORDER TO MAKE THEM SEE THE DIFFERENCE.
6. The case to be made against TVP is then about how it does in fact abuse people, and how it does in fact alienate as well as fear any actual scientists or experts. This can be demonstrated on a case by case basis for 20 examples of each kind of abuse.
A. Ad hominem attacks against new people/ people asking questions.
B. Passive Aggressive manipulations against long standing members.
C. Conflicts between moderators and admins in demonstration of no metaprocess.
D. Appeals to or from authority in response to questions on their forum
E. Lies about people they interact with, ban from their site, or etc.
F. Freaking out and going postal the moment somebody informs them that they know something that the organization or its moderators don't.
G. Making transparently false claims about their knowledge in order to pretend and in order to cover up their paranoid delusional
fears and real fears about being discovered as ignorant.
H. Ad hominem attacks against long standing members
I. Other forms of attack, such as straw man argument and false dilemma against people asking legitimate questions on their forum
or etc.
7. So, what we need is 20 good examples of each of these behaviors, and a core thread per each of these behaviors, in order
to pin down these behaviors and prove to people that this happens, and that it happens frequently and chronically and habitually,
and in order to make the point that we are not arguing against the core axioms; but against how the movement BEHAVES towards
people.
8. Most importantly, we must not engage in these behaviors ourselves, and must show through our own demonstration of interaction how it is possible to handle high tension conflict without resorting to being abusive, demeaning, or manipulative towards the cult members whom we are trying to save.
Prometheuspan said this on April 22, 2010 at 11:16 am | Reply

"I know prometheuspan they have serious flaws and are foolishly walking into the mainstream (just youtube search zeitgeist on tv) without adressing them at all ."
You know what is most funny? that stupidity in some senses dooms
them. as soon as investigative journalism starts or real pundits take a hard look, they will end up skewered like a politician caught doing something obscene in public.
"If they were in any way honest about what they are promoting then they would address them. As I outlined in my rather hastily compiled contribution here we are going to end up with the same thing we had with the environmentalist movement where at first everyone was enamoured but finally saw it for the empty shell it was"
Its a strange paradox no? every social movement ever started has a vitality of say t minus 3 years and then it self destructs. Actual death may take decades, or it may just end up defanged and turned into a pop culture phenomenon- twisted into a tiny little pug garden gnome version of itself.
And then people get the idea that version is all that it can ever be or is; and thats what it becomes and all of the possibility for real evolution dies.
The hippie movement, the permaculture movement, buckminster fuller or Paolo soleri, wicca or paganism or shamanism or buddhism in the USA... al gutted the same way. Taken down by being infiltrated by trolls from the inside. Like buddha getting parasite worms that devour him from inside out.
The environmentalist movement is so far gone that route its not even funny. When the hero of environementalism is a third rate politician who stood up and was is so ignorant he got half of his facts skewed, you know somethings wrong. Then every fool wants to tell me how al gore invented environmentalism and global warmingand argue against HIS presentation, not my facts. Its amazing.
TVP is its own worst enemy so long as it fails to resolve the metaprocess issue. All organizations are. Thats human nature.
without something to prevent us from doing it, we sink as if it were gravity back into secret unsceret versions of "lord of the flies".
quietely killing (each others souls, not bodies) each other all to get up to and keep the top of that local pyramid.
Thunder; VTV, azzie,... PJ to a much less degree...
slicing open victim after victim on the altar of TVP ...
and never admitting that the ritual is only to serve their egos. Not TVPs real goals as an organization.
its insidious, its sad, and as much as tvp may claim i am smearing them- the truth is that i am the only chance they have to escape their karma. Otherwise, TVP in 50 years will just be another sad footnote of a thing that might have made a difference. but never got its act together. and never really tried.
VTV and thunder and azzie and etc are murdering TVP.
And you and I are the one only ones who can save it.
Prometheuspan said this on April 22, 2010 at 5:13 pm | Reply

= When will that be? post apocalypse? After the collapse?
And how are they going to manage anything that big when they always alienate real professionals for being abusive + paranoid delusional ?
TVP will never be anything more than a three tier cult of personality video club. Thats the very top of their competency
level and one step beyond it.=
I'm trying to be diplomatic about this.
I've finished reading the interactions between the Venus Project and the RBEF, which to me at this point in time, seems to be cause of this hatred toward the apparent "incompetency" of the Venus Project.
Well, nobody here on this blog has conferred with The Venus Project about the details of their designs. Therefore every single one of you have come to the conclusion that they are incompetent, without having all the data to confirm this.
Not only that, but there seems to be a misunderstanding about the process in general.
In order for the Earth and humanity to become truly sustainable we need to act as one central entity. We have to survey all natural resources in order to determine the carrying capacity of the Earth, which we have to respect in order for there to be any way to measure sustainability of the species.
Since nobody has understand the implications of that step, and how it is a requirement to reach before moving on with any hope of sustainability; you're all supporting the notion that we need to work within the system to change it.
This will be effective to a certain point. Going off the grid, and creating local sustainability and abundance can only go so far. The species as a whole has to act in accordance to global resource availability, which is the only way to ultimately solve the big issues: starvation, and lack of access to the necessities of life.
It's a systems approach.
It would be much easier to get this done if we work as a cohesive whole.
What will happen with projects like the RBEF and Open Source Ecology is that they will run into problems when large populations of people start to work on creating self-sustaining communities based on accumulating raw resources. The market system will react and materials will get more and more expensive if they are becoming scarce. That process is the antithesis of the systems approach. If we don't first determine what resources we have then we are going to continue to be tempting the possibility of scarcity, therefore threaten the sustainability of the species.
Kris Paterson said this on April 22, 2010 at 8:24 pm | Reply

I agree with showing some examples of the abusive moderators. I even think that anticultist and Promethuspan should be the real moderators of the forum instead since you guys are real-life professionals who actually know what you're talking about and not some pretending wannabes. I'm not active in the forum, but I know that moderators play a BIG role in shaping how the forum develops.
If the moderators are shit, chances are the forum will turn to shit.
Secruoser said this on April 22, 2010 at 11:34 pm | Reply

To be honest while I was there I had every opportunity to get involved in moderating, as I was there and active prior to moderators being implanted and requested.
But I just didnt agree with it and felt I wouldnt enjoy the job, so I didnt apply or ask for the role. This was because I felt I may want to speak out at times, and being a moderator would of required me to be professional.
Sadly most the people who took the jobs werent professional.
anticultist said this on April 23, 2010 at 12:09 am | Reply

"I'm trying to be diplomatic about this."
me 2!
"I've finished reading the interactions between the Venus Project and the RBEF, which to me at this point in time, seems to be cause of this hatred toward the apparent "incompetency" of the Venus Project."
sorry, no hatred.
"Well, nobody here on this blog has conferred with The Venus Project about the details of their designs."
i did try, they couldn't answer.
" Therefore every single one of you have come to the conclusion that they are incompetent, without having all the data to confirm this."
They are flatly incompetent in ways that make it impossible for them to succeed on at least the issue of being abusive to other people. Anything else we might argue but is besides the real point
or problem. I can fix it if Jaques has no blue prints by drawing them myself. I do have that competency and I am happy to share.
What i can't do is interact with them and try to give them gifts
when their paranoid delusions tell them that anybody who knows something they don;t is to be diabolized, cast out, and feared.
(and lied about, and etc.)
I can't help them until after they put down the sword and quit
knifing one peasant after another in the back.
"Not only that, but there seems to be a misunderstanding about the process in general."
Not really, and its ludicrous for you to tell me I don't understand when the truth is that my understanding beats TVP on every issue and thats why we are here.
"In order for the Earth and humanity to become truly sustainable we need to act as one central entity."
not true. and in many ways, fascisticly centered, not fact based.
"We have to survey all natural resources in order to determine the carrying capacity of the Earth, "
yes, i have done that, several times, at parties with 20 post grad college students. It takes about 5 people and 4 days.
"which we have to respect in order for there to be any way to measure sustainability of the species.
Since nobody has understand the implications of that step,"
just stop. I understand that step fine and I have done it.
The carrying capacity of earth is at least in quadrillions of persons.
TVP can't even tackle the problem or run simulation or thought experiments.
"and how it is a requirement to reach before moving on with any hope of sustainability; you're all supporting the notion that we need to work within the system to change it."
Again, not true.
"This will be effective to a certain point. Going off the grid, and creating local sustainability and abundance can only go so far. The species as a whole has to act in accordance to global resource availability, which is the only way to ultimately solve the big issues: starvation, and lack of access to the necessities of life.
It's a systems approach."
Again, I am an expert in systems theory, and TVP wouldn't know meta process if it bit them on the hand. You have no place to tell us that they are taking a systemic approach, when in fact thats their problem, they don't.
"It would be much easier to get this done if we work as a cohesive whole."
I tend to get more done if i act as a one man think tank.
And i would like to have us all come together, but first problems must be solved.
"What will happen with projects like the RBEF and Open Source Ecology is that they will run into problems when large populations of people start to work on creating self-sustaining communities based on accumulating raw resources."
I have solutions for those problems. TVP doesn't even have a solution for how to not expose itself perpetually to the danger of libel lawsuits.
Read me loud and clear on this. I could sue them into non existence for libel, on about 40 counts.
Hear me?
They have transparently lied about me and my person and attempted to defame me.
If i hired a good lawyer, I could end TVP in a six month time span that way.
Think about it.
" The market system will react and materials will get more and more expensive if they are becoming scarce. That process is the antithesis of the systems approach. If we don't first determine what resources we have then we are going to continue to be tempting the possibility of scarcity, therefore threaten the sustainability of the species."
Thats great, so, you tell me when TVP catches up to me andactually bothers to conduct such a survey. With their membership and a sane process it would take them like it took us about 4 days.
They will never do that and are chronically unable to use their membership as anything other than pawns and chit chat distractions.
Furthermore, since they lack serious core knowledge on the subjects in question, they would need experts involved in that process and they are only capable of alienating people who know things they don't.
Meanwhile, I will again state that the carrying capacity is in quadrillions of persons and that all alleged scarcity is manufactured or due to systemic waste.
I have done my home work. They are patently incapable of doing theirs.
prometheuspan said this on April 23, 2010 at 2:13 pm | Reply

let me really let this one sink in for you.
between Jaques and PJ you have one Doctorate in Economics and
all the right work for energy choices.
Other than that its four more bachelors between the two of them.
I have 20 degrees in a virtual sense; to find and employ someone
like me they would need to find and employ 20 people on a team
and know how to run a think tank.
Last night i posted drawings from autocad and sketchup on RBEF.
Yes, thats right. And i am reallu actually just laughingly holding
back on that angle.
because whilst jaques and pj run their cult;
I am the person anywhere amongst you that has the real answers,
and is actually able and willing to be present with you.
as well as able and willing to draw, right here, right now,
whateva you want.
So, now, i am the draftsman that TVP doesn't get to have make its
sorry and pathetic 1970s images look like they have any solidity to them.
Theres a peculiar one i would like to focus on and no, you find it, i am not going to link. It looks like a tree with bulbs on it.
Heres the thing. I can build you his tree. Sure, its feasible given modern materials. But how much more is this going to cost
than a practical and sensible redress of the concept from an engineers perspective instead of from an economists?
WTF? don't tvp cult victims arguing here get about that?
well..any how...
i do hope you join in on the sketchup party yourselves, theres no reason why you can't all of you both take these images and use them for your own purposes/ participate in the OPEN SOURCE DESIGN COLLABORATIVE..
so... give me a break. whos winning and whos losing in TVPs battle
with evermores?
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=393&t=2027
prometheuspan said this on April 24, 2010 at 6:06 pm | Reply

I hope you realise they have virtual diplomas and bachelors not real ones. Unlike most of us with real quals.
anticultist said this on April 24, 2010 at 6:24 pm | Reply

I have enjoyed reading your posts.. especially your claim to carrying capacity of quadrillions... however, you can not replace a team of 20 good engineers for sheer bandwidth issues, even if you can come up with some valuable ideas that the 20 of them all together couldn't come up with. Furthermore, there are plenty of engineers with just one degree who continue to study outside of school and whose fully bloomed expertise would compare to at least 3 or 4 bachelors degrees. Degrees are not everything, and frankly, though you speak intelligently, your conceipt seems to be a problem. I am beginning to wonder if it is some kind of a tragic flaw.
Matt S said this on September 16, 2010 at 7:16 am | Reply

http://www.rbefoundation.com/download/file.php?id=459&mode=view
prometheuspan said this on April 24, 2010 at 6:09 pm | Reply

7. So, what we need is 20 good examples of each of these behaviors, and a core thread per each of these behaviors, in order
prometheuspan said this on April 24, 2010 at 6:12 pm | Reply

I hope you realise they have virtual diplomas and bachelors not real ones. Unlike most of us with real quals.
------
yes, i do absolutely, and you and everyone should know thats the joke.
i have 20 virtuals and zero reals.
i am not going to ever pretend any different.
but that puts me in the middle position in some senses.
my headaches are always caused by the problem that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.
I don't have a problem with claiming virtuals unless your lying.
Jaques claiming anything with the word "social" in it unless its
social economics is frankly patheticly transparent and absurd lying.
Hes an admirable economist and a fantastic artist.
hes even actually a very good architect and a passible civil engineer.
But to claim "human elements" or psychohistory or tell us about a collapse like its supposed to happen and like he doesn't get it that smart evolution is preventing it using his ideas...
i mean... how sad is that really?
Jaques is either evil or he doesn't understand that his ideas
are what can prevent the collapse.
so he tells us all to just wait until after.
No. I'm a man of right action, and hes an admirable guy, but
between us, I'm the psycho historian and i'm the one thats worth
actually investing all of the attention into.
thats usually how it is.
If the conversation and relationship were two way that would be fine. Jaques and i would be total buddies if i was his neighbor.
But jaques employs an evil flapper named VTV. the end.
and overcompensates for not having a full spectrum knowledge base
by lying about it.
How hard does that make my life? i have to walk around and convince people that my virtual credentials are worth not laughing at talking to people like you who spent hard time working the hard way for them.
TVP becomes the bottom balloon eclipsing the light you'd see
from other people like me and really all of us.
the less relevant they become and the more we solve the problems
together the farther out it all goes.
Jaques becomes truly irrelevant when i and RBEF prevent the collapse.
how long will that take? how much help do i have?
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=393&t=2027
prometheuspan said this on April 24, 2010 at 6:47 pm | Reply

Synopsis
Fluid social change can only materialize if two circumstances are met. One, the human value system, which consists of our understandings and beliefs, must be updated and changed through education and thoughtful introspection. Two, the environment surrounding that value system must change to support the new world view. The interaction between a person's value system and their environment is what influences human behavior.
For example, in our culture, "ethics" is really a matter of degree, for our social system promotes and rewards competition and self-interest. This perspective doesn't just "lead" to aberrant behavior... it creates it directly. Corruption is the norm in our society and most people do not see this, for since the society supports this behavior, it is considered right and normal... or as a matter of degree.
Given this understanding, there is a fallacy that has emerged where certain groups are deemed "corrupt" and everyone else is "good". This is the age old "us and them" world view which has no basis empirically, for it is, again, all a matter of degree.
For example, there is a large movement of people who constantly talk about "The New World Order" and this notion that there is an elite group of people who have been trying to take over the world for a long time and have manipulated society in various ways to further their goals.
This, of course, is true to a certain extent.
BUT, the failure of awareness is that this "group" is not a group at all. It is a tendency.
If you took out all the people at the top who are engaged in global hegemonic rule, it would simply be a matter of time before another group stepped in to seek the same ambition. Therefore, it isn't the individual people or groups that are the problem. It is actually the conditions upon which those people have been accustomed and indoctrinated by. Of course, many argue against this view with the escapist notion that it is "human nature" that causes this competition and need for dominance. This is unsupported by the facts. In reality, we are nearly clean slates when we are born and it is our environment that shapes who we are and how we behave.
Therefore, in order for TRUE change to occur, we must spend less time battling the products of this sick social structure and more time trying to change the root causes. As difficult and daunting as it may be to think this way, it is the only way our world will change for the better.
We can continue to stomp on the ants coming out from under the refrigerator, but until we remove the spoiled food behind it, they are just going to keep coming.
prometheuspan said this on April 24, 2010 at 7:57 pm | Reply

ever see meat out looking conspicuously like easy prey?
lets get threads on these science topics. I am ready to show where
the holes are and where the good points are in all of their master documents.
In short...
lets get this expose of TVP on theroad? shall we?
i wouldn't want to be late with my very important date to
try to catch the grim reaper on film when he hoes TVP down.
:)
prometheuspan said this on April 24, 2010 at 8:00 pm | Reply

Therefore, in order for TRUE change to occur, we must spend less time battling the products of this sick social structure and more time trying to change the root causes. A
-------
it helps to actually get the part above about the "us versus them" modality and not emulate it as admins and moderators on the forum
and etc.
so them talking here about all of this is orwellian because they don't offer real change; they offer us-wait-and-see-what post-apaclaypse-looksliketheorism... "Collapse theory."
they are just the stuckness on the door and don't open the door out.
and in fact its as if they are saying "do nothing and just let yourselves all go quietely.. "it won't be so baaaaahhhhd...."
TVP is not showing me change; its showing me stuckness over the very issue it raises but then fails to address in depth.
Its nice to have a pretty sounding happy happy joy joy.
Show pj. show me the meta process flow charts.
I have mine handy anytime and they are posted publicly at rbef,...
prometheuspan on April 24, 2010 at 8:06 pm | Reply

"Fluid social change can only materialize if two circumstances are met. "
only two?
thats pretty weak.
let me give you ten more frank vectors and we can then all laugh.
1. Egotism
2. pack psychology
3. group think
4. mob psychology
5. cult psychology
6. paradigmology
7. through the looking glass
8. out of the box
9. on the the other sidhe
10 of non reality...
11. A useful formal process to deal with the human tendency toward digression and distraction; a way to harnass and cross analayse
mere conversation and derive a better signal to noise ratio.
12. A useful metaprocess to organize collaborative labor around
and to deal wisely with the problems central and connected to conflict.
prometheuspan said this on April 24, 2010 at 8:11 pm | Reply

I really like this blog and check it often to see the articles and discussions. Thanks for keeping it active. Sadly I have little ability to contribute. But have thought of a few possible topics that may be worth writing articles about, should you be interested in taking the ball and running with it. Here they are;
- Micromanagement in all the wrong places. The contradictions in TVP's system of freedom.
You can have and do anything and everything in TVP, except when management arbitrarily decides that you can't. I.E. Cars won't exist because they are wasteful, but you can have kind of car you want, but there will be only one perfect type of car.
- VTV's authoritarian tendencies: From 7/11 cashier to would-be World Dictator.
I.E. Ad Hominims are not allowed, unless you are VTV or one of his brown shirts.
- Every economy is a "resource based economy".
Money is just a tool. Replacing it with "resources" changes nothing in practice.
- TVP requires eugenics & euthanasia to maintain population stability.
In a world of finite resources, an unlimited amount of people can't consume an unlimited amount of stuff. Roxanne has stated as much in lectures available on youTube. They claim people will volunteer not to reproduce.
- TVP: Blueprint for an unending dystopian nightmare.
Is it just a coincidence that the society they describe is the same as the society described in any number of dystopian science fiction books? They say its laughable to compare. But is it really?
- Was Peter Merola short-selling bank stocks while promoting a boycott of specific banks in Addendum? (He admitted short-term equities trading in a pre-TZM Village Voice article. Is he using his followers to attempt to move stock prices by way of strategic propaganda endeavors?
- Backlash of Lies: Postmortem of The Zeitgeist Movement
The world Tour is underway, so the cash in is nearing completion. Peter Merola is on extended hiatus, with no stated expectation of return. The forum is 20 moderators, 10 old-school members, and a revolving group of neophytes that leave after a few posts. The movement is on its death bead, if not dead and buried entirely.
Note to admin; You may wish to consider not authorizing this post, toward the interest of developing such topics as articles in full. I only posted it here because I don't have your email.
Anathema said this on April 24, 2010 at 10:32 pm | Reply

- Was Peter Merola short-selling bank stocks while promoting a boycott of specific banks in Addendum? (He admitted short-term equities trading in a pre-TZM Village Voice article. Is he using his followers to attempt to move stock prices by way of strategic propaganda endeavors?
This I like, you make me wonder here because you are correct in saying he was trading, and he did make a lot of money from it, he has since stated he has stopped, but what you said above is a fine piece of inquisitive thinking, perhaps unprovable unless we checked his stocks and sales accounts. But he was asking people to avoid banks and this could affect stock prices if a lot of people did, and he bought a load while they were cheap able to sell later at a substantial profit ?
anticultist said this on April 24, 2010 at 11:23 pm | Reply

I'm definitely not an expert on this by any stretch of the imagination... But there is such a thing as "short-selling". Which, as I understand it, is betting against a stock (betting it will fall) without having to even purchase the stock at any point.
As an aside, Goldman Sachs has been taking heat lately for selling financial instruments, claiming they were AAA investments, while simultaneously & secretly betting they would fail (AKA short-selling). Again, this is just my understanding.
The key point (of course) is not that Peter Merola encouraged boycotts of banks, but that he encouraged boycotts of SPECIFIC banks. When a market trader is promoting, by use of propaganda, the boycott of specific publicly traded companies, that is indeed an opportunity to financially benefit in a way that may implicate corruption.
I don't know how one would find out what he was trading at the time, if anything. But the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC.gov) would certainly be interested to know if that kind of securities fraud was being committed.
Anathema said this on April 25, 2010 at 12:20 am | Reply

Yeah thats an interesting angle that right there.
Regarding the other matters you presented, I am sure someone might take you up on them within this thread.
Regarding this one here:
- VTV's authoritarian tendencies: From 7/11 cashier to would-be World Dictator.
I.E. Ad Hominims are not allowed, unless you are VTV or one of his brown shirts.
This guy is not worth a page of this blog to himself as his ego is already hyperinflated, so I think a few passing comments about him here and there are sufficient, he is a bell end, there thats my input on him done.
anticultist said this on April 25, 2010 at 12:32 am | Reply

- VTV's authoritarian tendencies: From 7/11 cashier to would-be World Dictator.
I.E. Ad Hominims are not allowed, unless you are VTV or one of his brown shirts.
thats the problem in a nut shell right there. VTV can lie and attack and distort about me, while i dance circles around him.
what he can't do is make a valid argument, and thats why hes forced to lock the thread and ban me. I make him look stupid, and evil, because thats what he is when your not butt kissing him.
prometheuspan said this on April 25, 2010 at 9:09 am | Reply

"or maybe the greek chapter have no idea whats really going on in zeitgeist due to poor communication ?
If this guy is a coordinator of an official chapter or an official greek spokesperson for this movement, then they really should make sure they have fully researched and got their facts straight before putting them onto national tv and then the internet."

Perhaps in some of the european chapters they are better organised and honest than the us/global site.Your right in that there maybe a lack of communication between the chapters and that is another major flaw.One chapter may have its act together and be genuine while others may not and there maybe no way of them effectively communicating to each other or organising anything.In regards to them not knowing about the other flaws like transparency issus,independant groups and the behaviour of Peter and co. most of these TZM criticism blogs(like this one,Zeitgeist Debate and Beyond TVP) as far as I know are only in english.I mean the whole movement is not only disorganised in the sense of the top-dowm pyramid dictatorship we have going on here but also the fact that each chapter are pulling in different directions.Since PJ,RM and JF seem to trying to keep this as underground as possible away from the pundits,experts and journalists who could easily expose them I doubt they would have liked to have seen the Greek and Latvian chapters going on TV - since they are concerned of only keeping this an online thing(all three can live the rest of their lives living off the hard work of say at least several hundred thousand die hard fans).This is my friend is why its gonna flop under its own weight BIG TIME.Its up to everyone here to get the message to the non us/global chapters about the RBEF,RBOSE etc. and in particular this blog....and Google Translator!
Shane Nolan said this on April 28, 2010 at 12:54 pm | Reply

I have thoughts today to share. Mumbling ranting, whatevahs.
I have seen the shape of this thing in my mind now very clearly.
And so my mind has layed out a plan or path for the easiest possible route to utterly destroy TVP/TZM.
There are two main branches on that tree. The first is to do the work they can't do because of being incompetent. To perform
the live research, references checking, and working of the problems, which demonstrates how that is done and which shows the difference between their stuckness and real right action.
We have begun this with this thread but this is only a start.
RBEF is in any case at that moment in its evolution. And I am the Research Coordinator. So I am going to be exploring the sciences
and using my knowledge of them to try to get other people going, point the direction to them.
The other half is the dark half. The dark half is running analysis of their threads and showing them to be abusive to person after person after person after person.
We need both sides and we need both sides lucidly. Without solving the problems we are only attacking, and without pointing out the abuse, we would only be doing their work for them.
I'm asking for your help to immediately destroy TVP/TZM based on these two primary tactics.
I will be exploring the sciences on RBEF and I will want to see all of the documents and work that TVP/ TZM has done, as we climb up past all of that- very quickly, this month. I need people to link me to their documents on those brainstorming
threads. I need people to help me even run google and show the larger meta movement what online research looks like.
I am in contact with RBOSE a tiny bit, and am going to get on facebook today. Lets gather our forces together and marshall them
up and be effective, lucid, and focused.
In regard to many other issues about them, their finances, their personal lives, and etc, those are interesting issues, but they don;t have the simple and direct bite of 20 links and 20 quotes of VTVs Ad hominems against 20 different people just asking hard questions.
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=98&t=1305&start=60
This is where i have addressed RBEF over this.
http://www.rbefoundation.com/viewgroup.php?f=389
and this is the brain storm area.
I will need to create explorations for 20 sciences, a transition plan that rocks, fill out a whole lot more starter up threads for projects, (i have hundreds of models I have designed on my hard drive.) And be well on our way to writing 50 textbooks by the end of this month.
Each of those textbooks is going to come together as a research project, and in each case I'm going to want to know everything that TVP/TZM has ever managed to put together on said topic.
This will turn out to be very little, spread over 5 documents and 20 threads, which will be a fine point to make each time.
This information will create documents which will be open source and RBOSE and other groups will be free to use them on their sites.
What we need tho is to come together right now, and get this done.
I hope that i can count on your participation and support.
prometheuspan said this on April 30, 2010 at 11:26 pm | Reply

I don't think anything needs to be done to help collapse TZM/TVP as the management has done everything in its power to destroy itself. And toward that end, have had great success.
Now they have an entry test at the forum. Now, at a time when even the old-school members are fleeing like its last call on the Titanic. Just brilliant. They don't seem to realize that the more people know about the subject, the less interested they are in "joining". The irony is found in the fact that a troll is much more likely to get in, as they know more about the movement than any genuinely interested person would.
Some say they have 700,000 members. Some say its 400,000. Others say its 300,000. I would wager that its really closer to 500 people who only want to chat on a forum that they are increasingly being shut out of. Confirming a gmail address does not equal being a member of a social movement FFS.
Tips for gorilla forum warfare: Join and pretend to be in support of the project, while acting like such an imbecile that any remaining intelligent person will flee to escape association. The brown shirts will never be able to determine if you are a subversive troll, or a normal moronic member. (If you go in and criticize, they just insta-delete and forget about it.)
But then, why bother. Did you hear the most recent US meeting? Nobody even bothered to show up. VTV doesn't even do a show anymore. Jaque and crew are on a speaking vacation, er, I mean tour. And PJ is busy collecting the remnants of the new-age hippy poon that still thinks he's cool. Put a fork in it. It's done.
But if one were set on making an offensive, this is the time to do it. They are exceedingly weak at this moment.
BTW, VTV asked for people to create a logo for his blog. So I did; http://i47.tinypic.com/np50np.jpg Then he banned me, deleted my submission and closed the "competition". If you're reading this VTV, please reconsider! /sadface
Anathema said this on May 2, 2010 at 12:52 am | Reply

its probably true that nothing per sey needs to be done for it to fall, the only question is how long it will take.
Their quiz is so orwellian its painful. It had me laughing for 20 minutes.
The answers they want are obvious, but the real answers are not what your supposed to answer. which is a hoot.
The thing is, we need to understand that as this ship sinks so does RBE unless theres a boat that looks worthy to carry people.
AND, while it is now sinking slowly, about 6 months or so, it can be helped down considerably and in many ways that is actually far kinder.
The core issue is that people need to see it for what it is or people will just keep repeating the problem.
I'm a bit proud of getting banned from the "hypography " forum.
It may seem like a change of topic, but, bear with me for a sec.
You see, they claim to be a science forum, but they aren't. They are a pack psychology groupthink ego trip and thats all that they can ever be, because the mods are using bias, assault, ad hominems, passive manipulative aggression, and assorted carot and stick orwellian measures to make people tow their line. This includes their global warming denialism thread, or their thread which was started out of my sign on which was about building new space vehicles in which i get to listen to everyone give me the same old lame BS about how its all impossible- using science arguments that are 40 years old.
In short, they are ignorant and clueless, and even the smart ones amongst them are out of date and are never really challenged to learn anything new; because of the same old problem you have everywhere.
Without a solid meta process and real moderation techniques ans skills, 99 percent of the forums and would be social movements out there are actually abusive and actually function despite their stated claims or goals to keep people mentally trapped and caged.
Thats the core problem of all problems, and unless people wake up to that, they will always get duped.
TVP presents itself as case in point and exhibit A.
It will never matter what good they think they would like to do in the world because of the evil that they do instead.
The only way out is for people to see that; and for us all to quit doing it.
The only way out is to confront the abuser and the abusers issues;
thats the only therapy thats fast and quick and real. Otherwise everybodies going to need 50 years of therapy and thats not going to allow RBE to happen.
In short, it is our responsibility to make sure that this thing goes down as quickly as as painlessly as possible, and that people have a clear sense of where to go instead.
If it goes down slowly it only gets more abusive as time goes on; as they clench their fists to hold on it slips through their grasp; but they will clench and clench harder and that means they will get worse and worse.
The need for a "quiz" is a proof that its already well past several iterations of this.
The problem with your idea of being an imbecile troll is that this is what ten people are already doing; transparently.
I could play admin moderator the other direction and weed out game player trolls like rodents in a garden.
The other problem is those people don't solve humanities problems they only add to TVPs entropy.
My plan is simple in two parts.
1. Do all of the research open source and on line which they are too crooked and incompetent to do or even imagine or consider.
This means writing 50 textbooks; which was something btw I had in mind to do anyways.
I could do it alone in fact if i could only type 100 times faster.
Part 2 is focus in on the actual incidences of abuse, threads and irc chats and etc where its clear that they are abusing people.
Catalog it, organize it, put it up on a wiki; make TVP the character poster child for our novel on cults and system abuse.
Theres never been a better opportunity. Also, their forum probably has a lifespan left in only a year at most, so we will be doing them the favor of saving the materials from their threads.
In short, we need to raid TVP for all of the gems that the population has tried to invest, show how those gems were trampled under by the swine that VTV and thunder and azzy are, and then organize that into what will actually survive after the lawsuits really start to pick up.
If i had the money i could put an injunction against them and shut down their site now.
Lying transparently about other people is called libel and slander.
Its usually difficult to prove because most people aren't dumb enough to actually cross those lines.
In this case its a slam dunk.
I'm not the only one, and I won;t be the last. As TVP flushes itself down the toilet, expect to hear more and more lawsuits cropping up.
Sooner or later the forum will be shut down by a judge.
Hypography on the other hand is a different sort of example.
What they fail to understand is that they have now given me license to do the same thing to them that anticultist has done to TVP but in a different way.
I can use their materials and copy their threads out, and theres nothing that they can any longer do to stop me, because they would be the ones found guilty of abuse and even slander in a court, and I have every right to the threads i participated in.
In short, they just sold me their entire forum, whose materials i will now raid for interest and amusement.
One of the attacks that the admin made against me was that i was posting links to rbef and thus "competing" with his forum.
No, i was collaborating. But, now that hes accidentally confessed via his paranoid delusions whats going on for him, ....
If you were an ignorant troll pretending to have knowledge in a science forum, and running a scam to coerce people into global warming denialism; the last thing you'd want is somebody who can see through all of that BS and whos not going to be manipulated.
Over the long term then, he loses, because he can't compete with me. I can eventually claim all of that turf, its only a matter of time.
The reason for this is simple. While right now people are happy to just chat, they would be happier even with an information service which wasn't orwellian- they just don't know that yet.
When we talk about RBE most people think about physical goods and services. They forget that we live in what is called an information economy- which is actually a propaganda economy.
Information is the first level. We have to build an RBE for truth and information first, and then one in physical reality.
That takes 100 times more lucidity and knowledge than those people have- it takes an interdisciplinary expert to even see how those solutions play out, or how to organize people to be collaborative instead of chit chat or argue.
prometheuspan said this on May 2, 2010 at 4:25 am | Reply

have you collected these threads and evidence somewhere yet?whats th url? Id like to help
Shane Nolan said this on May 2, 2010 at 12:53 pm | Reply

http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=98&t=1305&start=60
anticultist said this on May 2, 2010 at 2:03 pm

I've been trying to keep up with this thread and wanted to reply. If I missed anything, let me know.
I'm not sure what you mean by Global Warming Denialism ProMetTheUsSpan, the only time I heard Peter Joseph talk about it (Global Warming) was on the Alex Jones' interview right after Zeitgeist: Addendum came out and he was brief on it as to not give any position - being agnostic on it. If he has changed his position and you can point that out to me, let me know. I'll be willing to look it up. Now, if the moderators are taking that position of Global Warming Denialism on the forums along with the majority, then I can see how you could develop that perception.
Then you say this:
"Jaques is no sociologist or Psychohistorian."
That's true, but with all the fields he has explored in his life, I think he can be considered as a multi-disciplinarian. I understand what you mean though, he's not licensed in those areas.
I would agree with you about Nanos and Gavin, it's only a matter of time before they are called level 3 trolls:
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=rules
What an eye sore.
"I rather like Michio Kaku personally, I find him easily accessable and academically sound on most of his claims about futurism."
I agree, his record speaks for itself.
As far as the links of criticism or moderation abuse, I threw in a lot of links in that thread in RBEF and joined up - hoping for future RBOSE and RBEF collaborations. I can see it happening. I think I already scanned the whole FORUM in TZM for all the terrible threads. Hopefully ProMeTheUsPan puts all that in his new WIKI page here and get 20 good examples of unprofessional and/or abusive behavior from Moderation, even criticism for the movement in general - from my help:
http://ni4d-issues.rbefoundation.com/index.php?title=Main_Page
I'll keep it coming as they keep posting. I wouldn't be surprised if they read this thread and found the links I posted and went back to their FORUMS and deleted everything I listed. Extreme forms of copying and pasting might have to happen. They have censored many things before.
I might in the future write a paragraph or two on each thread listed to expose some situations. The things that were endure were just pretty awful. Being a TZM member must be pretty awful.
And yeah, that whole LOGO contest thing for VTV goes against the TZM principles. All it does is enforce competition. He always comes off commercial to me and it gets on my nerves. If you listen to his most recent shows, he'll have an intro clip with Peter Joseph shouting out that "you're now listening to V-Radio" or something like that. It's disgusting:
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=229&id=230945&limit=10&limitstart=40#241309
I swear he's the new Alex Jones.
And as far as the Greece Chapter goes, I just found that video funny for the same reasons and if there is no retraction on their behalf, I will look at the Zeitgeist Movement even more crooked at this point.
I know, I know... I'm so cynical now.
And in the Latvia video is said one million people celebrated ZDAY in 2010. I'm sorry, but that's BS (Bad Science). They don't even have those type of numbers. The statistics they have now are easily questioned as Anathema pointed out.
It was said on 0:31.
Then right after it says the movement is popular and scandalous? Scandalous? Hmmm...
Maybe a bad translation?:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=scandolous
Have fun with that.
Language barriers can be questioned too though.
But the only scientific thing I see happening with the Zeitgeist Movement is them developing Earth 2 Venus:
http://tzmdevelopers.com
It's on their agenda along with other websites and this project is supposedly going to help collect all the information in the world in a way to survey the planet's resources. I'm sure it's going to be something beta and not actually collecting information in real-time (like poodwaddle.com), but something else for everyone in the Zeitgeist Movement to view to be as tangible in the future. But everything else seems to be promotion and collecting. Maybe the scientific method can be applied this way:
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/wiki/index.php?title=From_Earth_to_Venus
At least some people are catching on though:
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=search&q=&q=poodwaddle
If the ideas of Herbert Marcuse were peer-reviewed, then I can see Jacque Fresco ideas easily being peer-reviewed as well easily. He's someone I suggest everyone should look up:
http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/01/03/herbert-marcuse-the-forerunner-to-jacque-frescos-ideas/
"Why is Jacque Fresco so worried about people stealing his designs? Can't he just patent them and hire a lawyer?
And why would it be bad if someone did steal his designs? Let's say that a car company ripped off his idea for putting radar devices in the car to prevent them from hitting each other. Who care's if the car companies would make money off of this -people's lives could be saved by this. Why would he hide away his supposedly genius inventions like this, it seems selfish."
It reminds me of the movie "Flash Of Genius":

For him being in Venus, Florida for 3 decades plus, you would think that he has already been ready to patent everything, but who knows. If I started to make inventions, that's what I would do. But then again, patents cost money, rent requires money and so on. But hey, I'm not a legal expert and I don't know how they manage their money either.
"Where is Jaque's memory metals cars in real time? Where are we going to get energy from? Where are we gonig to get the resources to build this? Who will build it? Where is the automation going to come from? Who will build the robots? This is lame as hell Jaque is stuck in the 1950′s mickey mouse club..."
All good questions and I find it funny you used the Mickey Mouse analogy:

It has been used by them as well.
Sorry for the scatter-brain reply, a lot to keep up with here.
BranManFloMore said this on May 2, 2010 at 5:03 pm | Reply

regarding their earth to venus project:
http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/01/01/the-problems-with-venus-projects-resource-survey/
anticultist said this on May 2, 2010 at 6:09 pm | Reply

Me and ProMeTheUsPan have been talking about this a bit more:
http://rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=393&t=2208
It seems like mission impossible still, I don't mean to sound pessimistic.
BranManFloMore said this on May 19, 2010 at 10:25 pm

"have you collected these threads and evidence somewhere yet?whats th url? Id like to help"
thats just started. still not sure where to
have the party. RBEF has folks in it that aren't happy about us attacking tvp and I'm trying to be mindful of them.
This project for me actually really starts monday.. tomorrow.
:)
prometheuspan said this on May 2, 2010 at 10:46 pm | Reply

I can understand that, well - I guess you can keep it all here then:
http://rbose.org/wiki/User:Prometheuspan
Under your own profile with RBOSE. And thanks for doing it this way.
:)
BranManFloMore said this on May 2, 2010 at 11:07 pm | Reply

Your intro states: " .... The Zeitgeist Movement have absolutely no actual data they have gathered". What leads to that statement ?
I have watched the "Zeitgeist Addendum" video and it's clear that the presentation of the procedures used to put money into circulation in the USA are accurate.
Please explain.
Ayran Dreger said this on May 19, 2010 at 9:56 pm | Reply

They have no data they have collated themselves and have no scientific evidence to verify their main objective ---> The Venus Project
They are the activist arm of it after all. And its their sole function to bring it about.
With anti credentialism, no scientists, no evidence of their own, no research, no physical evidence, no practical experience and a loada empty words I stand with what was said.
I have watched the "Zeitgeist Addendum" video and it's clear that the presentation of the procedures used to put money into circulation in the USA are accurate.
Goto conspiracy science.com and ask them about the monetary system in the shitegeist movies.
anticultist said this on May 19, 2010 at 10:05 pm | Reply

"I have watched the "Zeitgeist Addendum" video and it's clear that the presentation of the procedures used to put money into circulation in the USA are accurate.
Please explain." this forum is inadequate to the problem of covering this in depth and its been rdundantly covered elsewhere. While the assorted Z videos have some very good and strong points, they are transparently the works of an uneducated person if you happen to be educated in those fields. Since I am, I can only tell you that its sad when you ruin an otherwise good argument with an ignorant and extravagant error. or 10. In short, while there is some good information there in general principle, he is in fact so completely clue less that like Al Gore he ends up making his presentation a cheap straw man argument for the rest of us to have to defend. Yes our money system is flawed and corrupt and for all of the main reasons Z videos suggest. The problem is that the arguments they use are unfortunately based in the kind of simplified rhetorical version of reality which an expert gives to a layperson. And he gets it thus wrong. Badly wrong. Pathetically wrong. Laughably wrong.
All he would need to do to fix this is actually find actual experts. Since all they can do is play credential paranoid delusional mindgames with themselves, they can never listen to expert information and thus must always remain ignorant and opinionated but squaking a good line for those that don't know any better.
The tragedy is PJs loss. Hes mostly right but just enough wrong to
drive a truck through. If he had any sense he would use help to shore up those holes, instead of making them larger by pretending to have knowledge he doesn't.
prometheuspan said this on May 19, 2010 at 10:23 pm | Reply


Anticultist blog comments continue...
http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/forum/5539/archiving-anticultist-blog-on-sp/3/#reply-64a32e9c


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The Burger KingPosted: Jun 19, 2013 - 23:18
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I can't stop posting pictures of poop, what the fuck is wrong with me?

Level: 5
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Anticultist blog comments continue...



The main lesson I get from all this bickering - no matter how 'intelligent' and 'accurate' it may be:
It is (well past) High time to learn to cooperate -- rather than concentrating most on disagreements, fights and antagonisms rather than joint actions and efforts in our increasingly divided, alienated, violent and destructive human world.
As long as the powers that be are successful in their "Divide and Conquer" methods because the bulk of us succumb to bickering and fighting with one another to show "We Are Right" and "You Are Wrong" the situation is only going to get worse.
As Pogo said, " I have seen the enemy -- and he is us ! "
Cheers from down under, by a 'drop-out' to a smaller and somewhat happier and more pleasant corner of our world
Ayran Dreger said this on May 19, 2010 at 11:02 pm | Reply

Agreed [not about PTB tactics if you mean conspiracy theories] but you might wanna speak to the TZM leadership about it first.
Peter Joseph Merola himself is providing his own movement with scapegoats and false enemies in a divide and conquer, us vs them act all of his own.
His armchair theorising is second to none though.
peter joseph merola using us vs them mentality and enemy scapegoatisms.
http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=231&id=251858#251858
the defense from edward winston:
http://conspiracyscience.com/forums/topic/topic-consp-sciencecom-a-case-study-in-intellectual-inhibition-s
anticultist said this on May 19, 2010 at 11:14 pm | Reply

ProMeTheUsPan has collaborated with those who he took seriously and so have I. We still are project orientated as a matter of fact. Would you work with people you don't take seriously? Think about it. They caused the division, they made the foe list longer and longer. And BTW, people leaving TZM doesn't mean the world will end - there are so many serious organizations out there that are actually doing something oppose to sitting around on the FORUMs trying to fit in and be good suck ups to MODs there. Give me a break.
BranManFloMore said this on May 19, 2010 at 11:21 pm | Reply

tvp has conquered and divided itself. All i ever offered was the means to fix its problems and once again become sane and whole.
anything anyone puts on that table or brings to them will only be squashed and ignored and destroyed and trod underfoot.
I am the one with the pearls. And they are willfully choosing to be the swine.
Between the two of them they have less real world solutions than i had when was twelve.
I didn't have any need or intention to hold that against them until THEY picked the fight WITH ME.
prometheuspan said this on May 20, 2010 at 1:43 am | Reply

Again, this site comes back to a few immature people who fought with an admin or two at TZM and so denounce _an entire movement_ based on some minor personal conflicts. Misguided & silly at best.
"I provided solutions and no one received my ideas as I wanted them too! Waaaahhhhh!"
Adding, this article is guilty of the very thing it denounces the movement for; not showing factual data.
Hope you guys someday find a more constructive ways to spend your energies & work to actually solve problems instead of just making your minor personal conflicts so important.
I continue to hope this.
Joseph Matthew said this on July 15, 2010 at 9:59 pm | Reply

Again you return to give your misguided opinion about matters and people you have no clue about.
anticultist said this on July 16, 2010 at 9:48 pm | Reply

Considering the nature and intensity of your language.. its worth wondering from my point of view if you didn't just impress them as someone who likes to fight, and get yourself booted for that reason alone. Even a person with all the right answers can not be used if he can't get along with people. Personally, I am somewhat new to TZM, I have studied many of these topics that you say they are deficient in. I agree that if they can't properly make use of modern paradigms in social structure that they will fail. All of your other arguments are interesting but of no major concern. For me personally, it remains to be seen as to whether I can interact with them in a fashion that provides satisfaction or not. This is an empirical question as you and I apparently have rather different personalities. If in my experiences bear out with your estimations, I will join your voice. If not, I may join theirs instead. Or I may do some more looking and see if there is another group that is genuinely ahead of them.
Matt S said this on July 16, 2010 at 5:16 am | Reply

You can not say we have different personalities [assuming this is directed at me] I am on the internet how do you know I am not being intentionally provocative ?
Feel free to test them out and I am not interested if you stay or leave them to be truthful, just dont come running over here to prove anything to me, because I have been there and done it as far as that place is concerned. In so far as my 'arguments are interesting and of no major concern' I am sure thats just you and the many fanatics over there that would say something like this. Anyone with a sense of science would be quite perturbed by their lack of and knowledge of.
There are plenty of groups ahead of TVP/TZM they just dont make ridiculous claims and have goals that are unreachable. Please by all means go ahead and research into it all.
anticultist said this on July 16, 2010 at 9:45 pm | Reply

If TZM is leaderless as they claim, then the exact quality of their information is not a significant issue in the grand scheme. What would matter is that a: they are headed in approximately the correct direction and b: they are able to attract enough people to make their movement meaningful. Unfortunately for their side, if they have discarded proper principles of collective intelligence, and refuse to repent, then they are not headed in approximately the correct direction. Their movement would then be damned to be crushed by the sharp teeth of the older, more experienced hierarchies. If you are correct about their stance, then they are a nearly meaningless waste of peoples hope. And you would be correct to spend efforts trying to redirect people. I admire the fact that you show the ability to wield cutting edge paradigms. You may have a friend in me, regardless of your aggressive attitude, feigned or unfeigned. Only time can tell how those people will respond to my own personality and tactic. However, it seems likely enough that your experiences are a forshadowing.
Matt S said this on July 16, 2010 at 10:39 pm

TZM is not leaderless regardless of its claims, thats just a canned response in order to make its members feel like they actually have any say in matters.
But none the less members are banned for questioning Peter Merolas conspiracy theory beliefs and also his claims. He has sole ownership of the zeitgeist name and company, he has the last word in everything zeitgeist stands for and promotes, he runs the forum/owns it and makes all the movies. He bans people, calls meetings with his team.
Jacque Fresco owns and runs the venus project and decides exactly what its objectives are and when they will be attempted, he dictates what is reality within the confines of his movies and models and stories, also he refuses to share his info or change his info, and he wishes to maintain complete ownership of everything and run it himself with no external influence, he just wants someone to give him money to do his thing.
If you were to ask anyone outside the movement who its leaders are they would categorically tell you, Peter Joseph Merola and Jacque Fresco are its leaders not only in presence but in their words and actions.
All I can say to you Matt is this:
Stick to your guns, ask questions that are clear and precise, check everything they say, and keep them on track to what you are requesting of them.
They tend to avoid direct answers, give untested and unverifiable answers, they also like to play semantics and use many canned responses.
Read this blog for an insight into some of the typical behavioral patterns and answers you will recieve when confronting them with keen questions.
http://conspiracyscience.com/blog/2010/06/19/zeitgeisters-greatest-hits-confronting-canned-responses-to-criticisms-of-the-zeitgeist-movement/
anticultist said this on July 16, 2010 at 10:48 pm

I am beginning to feel convinced of your opinions about TZMs "leadership". Aggressive grabbing at ownership and control by those people is a real problem. My experience with the membership is very different. So I suppose what it comes down to is just what kinds of and how much leverage the "leaders" are using to hold positions of power. Control over the web site to the point of banning intelligent dissidents is definitely stupid and contradictory to concepts of collective intelligence. Claim of ownership and control over media contributions is also wrong. I guess maybe I have to see it as a movement where interaction with the membership may be meaningful, but interaction with the "leadership" is uninteresting.
Matt S said this on September 16, 2010 at 6:21 am

Hmmmm... global warming denialism seems to be a bad word here. So which ones of you have the crystal ball that predicts climate? Simulations can't do that... have written enough of them to know. And solar energy is down to around $1/watt and falling. There are many more holes in global warming, and all in series, meaning that GW has to successfully fill them all before it is meaningful.
Matt S said this on July 16, 2010 at 5:36 am | Reply

So you are a global warming denialist ?
hmmm ok well if you think theres nothing happening and its all just a coup by some shady elitists please keep that type of banter off my page I am neither interested in it or believe it.
anticultist said this on July 16, 2010 at 9:46 pm | Reply

"Again, this site comes back to a few immature people who fought with an admin or two "
No, the3 admins picked a fight with other people, are evil abd abusive basterds, and I tried to help them out. Period. This is their problem and their fault. You trying to make it our problem and our fault is stupid, ignorant, spin doctoring bullshit.
The case in point of my case in particular is that I confronted VTV for attacking somebody else in a perfectly reasonable way and he proceeded to attack me with ad hominems and was then joined by thunder in this. No less than three threads were started to protest kicking me off as it was transparently obvious to everyone what actually happened.
"at TZM and so denounce _an entire movement_ based on some minor personal conflicts. "
No, We aren't denouncing the entire movement, we think some of the ideals are high ideals. But the people involved at the core are evil people, period, and the means they use are not justified by the ends they say they want to achieve.
"Misguided & silly at best."
Misguided and silly is you or anybody trying to tell us whats up when you obviously don't know and are intentionally ignorant.
"I provided solutions and no one received my ideas as I wanted them too! Waaaahhhhh!"
Without the kind of information which i bring to their table, they are hopelessly lost without a shred of science to back them up.
I don't find it to be a coincidence that their new videos about energy come on the heals of my presentation to that forum.
They need me and people like me, but they always alienate anybody who has depth knowledge because they are terrified of being exposed.
"Adding, this article is guilty of the very thing it denounces the movement for; not showing factual data."
No, it has more than referenced what it needs to reference to make its point, you just decided to ignore those references.
"Hope you guys someday find a more constructive ways to spend your energies & work to actually solve problems"
I'm doing more and have done more as a single person towards actually solving real world problems than all of TZM put together.
"instead of just making your minor personal conflicts so important."
Our minor personal conflicts are not at issue. The simple fact that the leadership of TZM is a batch of evil basterd social parasites, and that they are thus an obstacle to real change or growth is however an issue.
The fact that TZM proposes that we do nothing until after a collapse means that they promote DOING NOTHING.
Meanwhile, people like me have to work around the noise and BS they have created. They are nothing but an obstacle agents of real change have to get around.
"I continue to hope this."
You could take your hopes and try paying closer attention. If you are serious, then join me on facebook and we can work for real change. Somehow i doubt you have the focus or energy or attention to do that, and its clear that you can't make sense of whats really going on with an organization.
This is ludicrous. anybody paying attention to VTV and Thunder can tell instantly that they are dead wrong 99 percent of the time.
It shouldn't take me or anticultist to point it out to you.
The real question and joke is why you can't manage to see the reality for yourself.
"Considering the nature and intensity of your language.. its worth wondering from my point of view if you didn't just impress them as someone who likes to fight, and get yourself booted for that reason alone. "
Who are you addressing? Me? The guy who contacted VTV privately to ask him to quit attacking jeremy, the guy who confronted the fact that he was using ad hominems against jeremy, the guy who stood against his onslaught of ad hominems and still didn't break any rules while they mocked me and posted cute little videos to mock me?
Excuse me, but you are out of touch. Some times strong language is called for when people decide to be thick.
"Even a person with all the right answers can not be used if he can't get along with people."
I get along with non evil people just fine. Evil basterds on the other hand don't get along with me- its a polarity issue. I'm the angel, they are the demons. Pay attention.
"Personally, I am somewhat new to TZM, I have studied many of these topics that you say they are deficient in. I agree that if they can't properly make use of modern paradigms in social structure that they will fail. All of your other arguments are interesting but of no major concern. "
Thats amusing but without lucidity.
"For me personally, it remains to be seen as to whether I can interact with them in a fashion that provides satisfaction or not."
If you are shallow, have nothing of your own to offer, and just want to be a groupie, you will get along fine. If you have anything intellectual to bring to the table above and beyond what they have, you won't.
"This is an empirical question as you and I apparently have rather different personalities."
The only personalities which matter in that equation are the evil personalities running TZM.
" If in my experiences bear out with your estimations, I will join your voice. If not, I may join theirs instead. Or I may do some more looking and see if there is another group that is genuinely ahead of them."
RBEF is by far the most lucid and progressive of such groups.
"Hmmmm... global warming denialism seems to be a bad word here. So which ones of you have the crystal ball that predicts climate? "
That would be me. I have the equivalent knowledge of A doctorate degree in meteorology and Climatology and spent hundred of hours doing data entry into a climate simulation engine.
"Simulations can't do that... have written enough of them to know."
You don't know what you are talking about obviously.
"And solar energy is down to around $1/watt and falling. There are many more holes in global warming,"
No, Global warming due to humans was a science fact in 1970. There are no holes and any ideas you may have that there are holes only prove that you are indiscriminate about what kind of lies and BS you will believe.
"and all in series, meaning that GW has to successfully fill them all before it is meaningful."
There are no such holes. This blog is not for discussion of this issue. If you think you can shoot even one hole in global warming science, I dare you to meet me on facebook and we can review what you think you have.
prometheuspan said this on July 16, 2010 at 10:26 pm | Reply

IC... approximately a PhD in Meteorology... then you may make a good challenge.. how very pleasant to encounter such. I am approximately a PhD in computing, focused on complexity theory and signal processing, also with a degree in physics, so lets see how this goes.
First of all, lets get to the most entertaining, but not most decisive issue.
Everyone who has studied complexity theory with much concern knows very well that all formal systems of merit can be broken. See Goedel Escher Bach by Hofstadter, 700 pages. Acting supremely confident in any simulation of a complex system whatsoever is extremely bold, and definitely drops my confidence in your opinion for lack of self criticism. I gave three years to a simulation of a complex system that should have landed me the PhD I was talking about. But beyond that, I have aggressively studied the nature of mathematics, computing and complexity. You think your simulator is about the climate... well, that's probably its strong point. What your simulator is really about is an attempt to make a cheap low bandwidth excuse for a computing device emulate a computing device of many orders of magnitude more bandwidth. Now let's get a notion of just how many orders of magnitude we are talking about. Recent experiments show that a single iodine molecule can do a discrete fourier transform in approximately 10 femtoseconds. Yes, that's correct, femtoseconds. ten to the minus fifteentb. We are talking about bandwidth comparable to that of the entire human organism from the cellular level up, all in a single molecule. Hehe... and you think that you can aim a simulator at ten to the thirtieth maybe fortieth and higher numbers of such molecules and even hope to guess which loopdiloops they do are going to matter. Now, this is just the most important argument about your simulator. This argument breaks up into multiple attacks from many directions on the validity of any such hope of simulating the climate. See Stephen Wolframs book, "a new kind of science" (approx. 1000 pages) for a discussion of how all differential equations as applied to physics are based upon the assumption that the quantity of data moving in a matrix can be highly compressed without significant loss. .. Oh, so you got a really mean machine and ramped up your number of finite elements and started inputting data like a mad-man. If I don't laugh. Can you predict how the plant life of the planet will evolve in response to additional carbon in the atmosphere? You are gonna need a machine with a cpu of about ten to the fiftieth or sixtieth hertz for that, cause you can't afford to miss one single genetic mutation. Can you predict all of the genius in all of the scientists brains that are looking for solutions to the energy problem? Oh you can, wonderful, let's just fire them all and hire your simulator to replace them. In fact, maybe while you're at it, you can simulate your own brain and all of its potential ramifications. Can you predict the political system with your simulator? The whole idea of global warming is to assert that man kind effects the climate. If so, then you must simulate man-kind in order to simulate the climate. What a joke.. Your simulator is for academic purposes only. A nice gee whiz to stimulate thought. It does have value, but it's not a magic crystal ball. Don't start getting out of bounds with me. I'll put you in your place in a hurry. Put good infomation on the table, not nonsense.. Now if you're wise, you'll drop your simulator and every other simulator out of the argument, and we can move on. If you aren't wise, lets just continue and expose all of your readers to just how much fantasy you are clinging to. Not a wise move on your part, since you are attempting to gain peoples good faith, and demonstrate that you are better than TZM.
Matt S said this on July 16, 2010 at 11:34 pm | Reply

I agree with your explanation of how simulations can not compute the complexity of nature. I did plenty of fourier anlyses when doing DSP and also when running tests of circuitry with simulated software. Although computing electronic circuitry and simulating it is very easy to do and generally fairly accurate, all that DSP provided was digital snapshots in time of an analogue process, which lead to sample errors if trying to perform perfect algorithms to mimic said analogue processes.
Now I am talking about processes being replicated and synthesised that are fairly simple and small scale, and these are still mapped with numerous digital errors and distortions. So to conduct something much larger will inevitably give far more complex problems and many more errors and flaws in the data.
I would not personally stand as a witness to simulated tests or data to categorically draw a conclusion, but I would at least look at its results and attempt to conduce a pattern from it to create a hypothesis. I believe this is all that scientists can do right now when conducting research into this field.
anticultist said this on July 16, 2010 at 11:48 pm | Reply

agreed, the simulations have some value for thought purposes.
Matt S said this on July 17, 2010 at 1:54 am

@Prometheuspan
You're still missing the point; there is no leadership. If you can do well, then nothing stops you from doing well other than yourself. Like any group project, if you're not finding people who you resonate with, look for others; there are over 400k people in TZM.
Or if you fight with someone, even if they start it, what's more important? Solving our social ails, or some person conflict between 2 people who probably have values more in common than not (even if they have personality differences). It's not about you, yet you feel compelled to deride an entire movement because you're offended by some individuals.
To color the whole movement based on some individual experiences, is just childish.
As for the science; sure you can point fingers, but where's your better solutions again? Oh yeah... none to be had. Just a some website forum and some disgruntled people looking to solve the same problems but refusing to work with other people because of personal conflicts. Pot calling the kettle black (aka hypocrisy).
Addind, name calling that is so common here, it shows you've already failed to grasp even the fundamentals. Love not fear; union, not division.
Saying 'TVP== Jacque's designs' further shows you've already failed to grasp the basics.
Maybe instead of trying to tell everyone how much someone else sucks to prop yourself up, you should look in the mirror and educate yourself on basic compassionate communication. With all the childish name calling on this and the CS site it's no wonder most people I've met think you guys are still in high school. And that gives high schoolers a bad name.
Lastly, it's like you don't even know history. Your attitude suggests you've never looked into why progressive social movements fail; they fail more often than not because not enough interested people can get over themselves & act like grown ups to put aside their little squabbles for the better of the whole.
Surely you see that? That is clear no? If it is, then what are you doing if not exactly that?
Sorry to say this, but grow up already... Get some perspective outside of yourself. There's more important stuff going on here. You're your own worse enemy & the constant whining on this site is just embarrassing.
Joseph Matthew said this on July 16, 2010 at 11:36 pm | Reply

Matt see the canned response above from this stalwart TZM fanatic, notice the use of rhetoric
1 there is no leadership
2 wheres your better solutions
3 using an ad hominem defence against people who disagree with them
4 scapegoating the reasons a person disagrees with the movement into a mundane reason which is untrue
5 using moral argument and emotional bias to win an argument by taking moral high ground
http://conspiracyscience.com/blog/2010/06/19/zeitgeisters-greatest-hits-confronting-canned-responses-to-criticisms-of-the-zeitgeist-movement/
The blog I pointed you at, which hopefully you read will show you how ludicrous this is.
anticultist said this on July 16, 2010 at 11:54 pm | Reply

agreed from my standpoint (not the people you are refuting). If reasonable collective intelligence can be achieved by finding functional groups of friends within TZM, then what the quasi-leadership does is not the primary concern. If we study memetics, we discover that mind viruses commonly don't go the direction the instigators intend. In stead, they choose their own direction. Now add this to the chaos theory concept of attractors and what you get is that if TZM is near enough to the proper attractors, reality will take over and lead it to where it belongs. So the question is: is it close enough to the proper attractors?
Matt S said this on July 17, 2010 at 2:00 am | Reply

Well I like the the chapter about mind viruses and memes in 'god wants you dead', and it makes perfect sense.
But the problem you have is inhibition and stagnation on their forums, ideally they have some of the right intentions, practically they have a stop and go complex occurring when people discuss taking the steps and doing the leg work to validate its authenticity. There is a fallacy that the movement requires x^y members to get to its goal, where as without any application and science fact it will simply be a case of waiting it out until everyone they require is onboard numerically speaking. Where as if they were to instead make the goal to recruit x^y scientists and engineers who could be working on matters while they had the side goal of recruiting joe public it would be a different matter, because by the turnaround point they would already have the valid science at hand to prove their claims and present a practical outlined schematic of what to do and how to do.
This is simply not the case, they believe that mass consensus will be enough to bring their goal to fruition, they even state that they need a permanent global financial collapse to occur so they can rise like a phoenix out the ashes and change the face of earth once and for all, this is incredibly naieve and dangerous thinking, and as far from scientific processes as one can get.
anticultist said this on July 17, 2010 at 2:08 am

I agree entirely that the don't do anything until after a collapse idea is pure nonsense, and very threatening to the success of their movement. Furthermore, collapse is not the only way for the system to change. Yep, I am with you on these points.
Matt S said this on September 16, 2010 at 6:37 am

"IC... approximately a PhD in Meteorology... then you may make a good challenge.. how very pleasant to encounter such. I am approximately a PhD in computing, focused on complexity theory and signal processing, also with a degree in physics, so lets see how this goes."
I think you missed the part where we adjourn to face book.
"First of all, lets get to the most entertaining, but not most decisive issue.
Everyone who has studied complexity theory"
This includes me. I have studied systems theory and several of its sub disciplines.
"with much concern knows very well that all formal systems of merit can be broken. See Goedel Escher Bach by Hofstadter, 700 pages. Acting supremely confident in any simulation of a complex system whatsoever is extremely bold,"
The first problem is that mere simulation isn't how we know that Global warming is real. People like to focus on simulations as
they can then bring up complexity and then claim that the system is too complicated to be accurately modeled. The only real question then is whether or not the chemistry is factual.
The other question is whether or not simulations are sufficiently detailed to model the reality accurately.
It turns out that in fact the simulations did model reality accurately enough to predict the warming we are now seeing.
The simple reality is that irregardless of irreducible complexity, the simulation models are accurate enough and they do show absolutely what is going on.
However. We don't need simulations any more to tell us that the earth is warming, or that the oceans are acidifying. We don't need simulations to tell us the basic chemistry and physics that creates global warming. All of those things are science facts before any simulation ever starts.
"and definitely drops my confidence in your opinion for lack of self criticism."
I'm truly unconcerned with you estimation of me.
"I gave three years to a simulation of a complex system that should have landed me the PhD I was talking about. But beyond that, I have aggressively studied the nature of mathematics, computing and complexity."
Thats neat. But not Meteorology or Climatology, so you have at best expertise in related fields and propaganda which you are too stupid or duped or evil (which is it?) to know is propaganda.
Also, formal conversational logic might help. In short, I think its awesome that you have some real knowledge to bring to this discussion. But You are not a polymath, and I am.
"You think your simulator is about the climate... well, that's probably its strong point."
You are now assuming things about me without actually hearing my argument. You don't know what my argument is. Do you?
This is typical. Global warming denialists think they have a crystal ball into anybodies argument and that they can just proceed with their uncanned nonsense.
"What your simulator is really about is an attempt to make a cheap low bandwidth excuse for a computing device emulate a computing device of many orders of magnitude more bandwidth."
I do understand that, and irreducible complexity. The question is whether or not the description and model is accurate enough to make meaningful predictions. And in fact, the simulations which predicted warming back in the eighties were in fact correct and dead on. We have known for fourty years that global warming was a solid science fact, and arguments from irreducible complexity have never made a dent in that reality.
"Now let's get a notion of just how many orders of magnitude we are talking about. "
that depends on the simulation. The ones I was part of in the late eighties were more than sufficient to predict the warming we now have. They are easily three or four orders of magnitude less complicated and detailed than current simulation models.
"Recent experiments show that a single iodine molecule can do a discrete fourier transform in approximately 10 femtoseconds. Yes, that's correct, femtoseconds. ten to the minus fifteentb. We are talking about bandwidth comparable to that of the entire human organism from the cellular level up, all in a single molecule. "
No, you are comparing apples and oranges, a single molecule is not as complicated as billions of molecules. Now look whos playing fast and loose with irreducible complexity.
I think you meant to say something else. Try it again this time be more precise with your language.
"Hehe... and you think that you can aim a simulator at ten to the thirtieth maybe fortieth and higher numbers of such molecules and even hope to guess which loopdiloops they do are going to matter. "
this is ludicrous. We don't need to calculate each and every interaction at that level, we can simplify such models and they will still behave as sufficient models of reality in order to generate predictions from.
"Now, this is just the most important argument about your simulator. This argument breaks up into multiple attacks from many directions on the validity of any such hope of simulating the climate. "
I have heard this all before. The fact of the matter is that the models are sufficient. Yes, they ignore orders of magnitude of complexity. However, thats irrelevant.
If the model is complicated enough to predict weather and climate
and does predict the climate change we have seen, then its working fine. The only way we could bother it is to beg the question of whether or not the simulation is rigged to show the results that exist in reality. You can't claim that. The models in the eighties predicted climate change which we now see, as real, as fact, as measured factual changes in climate. Period. If such models which were primitive by todays standards could do that then modern models are all the more trustworthy.
"See Stephen Wolframs book, "a new kind of science" (approx. 1000 pages) for a discussion of how all differential equations as applied to physics are based upon the assumption that the quantity of data moving in a matrix can be highly compressed without significant loss. "
It turns out that even very complicated systems do usually behave according to very simple rules. As long as we stay lucid about that compression, theres nothing there to argue about.
".. Oh, so you got a really mean machine and ramped up your number of finite elements and started inputting data like a mad-man. If I don't laugh. Can you predict how the plant life of the planet will evolve in response to additional carbon in the atmosphere?"
Yes, but not using a simulator.
"You are gonna need a machine with a cpu of about ten to the fiftieth or sixtieth hertz for that, cause you can't afford to miss one single genetic mutation."
This assumes fallaciously that the only way to know anything is via simulation. The great hole in your argument is that you seem to assume that.
Sorry, no, I don't need a simulator to work out whats likely to happen for evolution in warmer climates. For one thing, I can look at the actual fossil record and see what life was like when it was hotter.
For another thing, such mutations and etc will follow very simple rules and so making predictions isn't that hard.
"Can you predict all of the genius in all of the scientists brains that are looking for solutions to the energy problem? "
Irrelevant.
"Oh you can, wonderful, let's just fire them all and hire your simulator to replace them. In fact, maybe while you're at it, you can simulate your own brain and all of its potential ramifications. "
Now you are just ranting.
"Can you predict the political system with your simulator? "
I could, but I wouldn't try to, thats silly, a climate simulator
models climate, not politics.
"The whole idea of global warming is to assert that man kind effects the climate. "
It is not an assertion, it is an observation of fact.
"If so, then you must simulate man-kind in order to simulate the climate."
No, simulations are not even relevant to the basic mechanics of whats going on in the atmosphere. The chemistries involved do not require simulation, they are known absolute values.
Your argument is a typical and cheap two dimensional argument from complexity and simulation mechanics. It has no merit because we don't need simulations to tell us the facts.
"What a joke.. Your simulator is for academic purposes only. A nice gee whiz to stimulate thought. It does have value, but it's not a magic crystal ball."
The joke is that you would attempt in an argument from irreducible complexity to try to reduce the complexity of the argument for global warming down to simulation mechanics.
In short, your argument is ironically, tragically, and laughably hypocritical.
Before you go trying to knock science you don't understand, maybe you should try using some of that knowledge you have to remember that irreducible complexity is a blade that cuts both ways.
"Don't start getting out of bounds with me. I'll put you in your place in a hurry. "
Somehow, I hear a mouse squeeking out a silly and laughable challenge.
I think its telling that you are still here, not on face book.
"Put good infomation on the table, not nonsense.."
thats a fine idea you should try to follow it.
"Now if you're wise, you'll drop your simulator and every other simulator out of the argument, and we can move on."
Now if you are wise, you will go hide your face in a closet for a few months and when you come back we will all pretend you didn't humiliate yourself in this fashion.
" If you aren't wise, lets just continue and expose all of your readers to just how much fantasy you are clinging to."
this is rich. Bring it on.
"Not a wise move on your part, since you are attempting to gain peoples good faith, and demonstrate that you are better than TZM."
Well, at least you brought us back to the topic.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 12:36 am | Reply

Nice, and indeed there are other methods being used other than simulated data to corroborate the scientific observations, I also noticed his use of irreducable complexity.
Interestingly he appeared to deem it irrelevant to discuss the results and the patterns that were being given out that were of use to form the hypothesis, which as you rightly pointed out has shown to be based in observable fact.
anticultist said this on July 17, 2010 at 12:55 am | Reply

predicting the past is not the same as predicting the future. Obviously models will predict the past. Short term predictive success is nearly just as irrelevent.
Matt S said this on July 17, 2010 at 2:58 am

I do admit its nigh short of impossible to accurately predict the future and I would never state I could do such a thing based off a model or simulation, but again I must clarify that models were presented, hypotheses were arrived at, and in hindsight it appears to have been reasonably accurate. To state this is a fluke or just a one in a million out of others that were wrong is reasonable, but were the people who got it right one of the millions who got it wrong? Is it their scientific credibility that needs to be assessed or the others who got it wrong ?
Under scrutiny and hindsight anything can be observed to hold merit, but to deny the fact that an analysis might have shown a trend that was factual and consider it as vague and implausable as the ones who missed the mark is rather counterproductive.
All I am saying is there is a trend, and we can alleviate it.
Government do not act under the best intentions of society unless there is an incentive, likewise businesses are the same.
So to use the government excuse is meaningless in this argument because government dont act like a world beneficary who acts on the common good of all humanity, if that was the case we could say if government really cared about people they would pull out of wars, which they dont.
anticultist said this on July 17, 2010 at 3:07 am

The only thing you said of significant merit is that you could make guesses at what life may be like with a warmer climate by examining the fossil record. Seems to me that that would be pretty rough, since you need to match temperature as well as atmospheric conditions including carbon dioxide content. And furthermore, your fossil record will be dubiously incomplete because it won't hold information about the most important factor which is oceanic algea and plankton. However, I will concede a few points for your side for that idea. Unfortunately, your attempt to break through the irreducible complexity argument just doesn't cut it. In order to predict the carbon content of the atmosphere, you have to know how humans will be satiating their demand for energy into the future. You can't possibly know, predict, or guess such a thing. The only thing we know at this point is that alternative energy sources have gained significant ground. Even assuming your simulations of climate had some staying-power for short-term prediction (and I have seen plenty of data indicating that climate simulations have gone awry) long-term prediction is hopeless. Just like predicting the weather long-term is hopeless. My fart can predict the climate for two seconds. Its going to be just like it was two seconds ago, only just a little fartier. If you think you have significant simulative control over any length of time worth making big decisions over, you are dreaming. Plus, building simulators begs the age old prophecy problem. If enough people make predictions of the future, some day, one of them will pop up and assert that he got it right. Unfortunately, no one will know which one is right until after the fact. You just refuse to face the fact that all the meteorology clues in the world aren't enough to make reliable predictions of climate. All you can do is make a somewhat educated guess that will become less and less accurate as more time goes by. There are plenty of climatologists who disagree with you already. Try this link for example. http://joannenova.com.au/2009/05/shock-global-temperatures-driven-by-us-postal-charges/
If you can't predict the state of energy technology in 15 to 20 much less 100 years, you can't hope to predict man kinds impact on climate for any long term. Its not irrelevent. Its a part of reality that impacts the simulation/chemistry you are trying to make. You can't make a decent simulation that gets the answer right without including every possible detail of meaning into the simulation. What is irrelevent is how good you think you and a thousand of your friends are at doing math or chemistry for that matter. What is relevent is a historical warming trend. That is the only hard data on your side.
People are already working on energy technology, they have achieved a great deal of success, and it would be ludicrous to assume or even guess that they have suddenly all run into a road block. In fact, there is little doubt that solar energy is more cost effective than coal. If they solve the problem, then all the jumping around and law-making in the world will just be a waste. And if government were really concerned about the climate, all they would have to do is put reasonble funding into alternative energy, which they don't http://solarpowerrocks.com/solar-trends/a-sick-graph-iraq-war-spending-vs-spending-on-renewable-energy/ Now, you complained about me focusing on the simulation idea. I would love to branch out, but I am forced by my conscience to refrain because this is not the topic of discussion.
Matt S said this on July 17, 2010 at 2:55 am | Reply

"@Prometheuspan
You're still missing the point; there is no leadership."
having secret police and admins who are evil and abusive may lead you to imagine that this is true, but its obviously and patently false and ludicrous.
"If you can do well, then nothing stops you from doing well other than yourself."
No, TZM is filled with evil basterd admins. period. They will stop any real progress from happening because they can't afford to let it appear that other people know more than they do.
"Like any group project, if you're not finding people who you resonate with, look for others; there are over 400k people in TZM."
There are under 100 active participants on the forum.
"Or if you fight with someone, even if they start it, what's more important? Solving our social ails, or some person conflict between 2 people who probably have values more in common than not "
Again, evil basterds have ruined TZM. They are the evil basterds, not me. They are the ones who are anti science and anti truth, not me. They are the ones who are addicted to being bullies and ad hominem junkies, not me. They are the ones who banned me without cause because i pointed out that they were breaking their own rules- not me.
They are the ones blocking real progress and making work on solving problems impossible- not me.
"(even if they have personality differences). It's not about you, yet you feel compelled to deride an entire movement because you're offended by some individuals."
I am not offended by some individuals, those individuals are evil basterds, period, and they are ruining the movement, period, and they banned me for no good reason, period, because i called them out about being abusive to other people, period.
They are an obstacle to my real work, period, and they have nothing but shit, lies, and stupidity to offer the world- period.
The best information they have they stole probably from me- their recent bit about geothermal power is clearly taken from me.
In short, they have nothing, they are evil scum, and it is not my issue or issues which are the problem, it is them.
"To color the whole movement based on some individual experiences, is just childish."
No, to imagine that a cult of personality in three tiers and a charlatans scam is a movement is childish. To tell me that I am childish when i am simply confronting abusive basterds and evil people is childish. And TZM/ TVP is childish.
"As for the science; sure you can point fingers, but where's your better solutions again?"
All over the place. Google me. Want some building designs?
Get real.
http://globalcommunityportal.com/one/doku.php?id=sketchup
"Oh yeah... none to be had. Just a some website forum and some disgruntled people looking to solve the same problems but refusing to work with other people because of personal conflicts. "
I didn't refuse to work with them, i busted my ass to 900 posts to work with them and then they proved that they couldn't be helped by being evil basterds and banning me for pointing out that they were breaking their own rules.
I tied to work with them, despite knowing that they were abusive assholes, for exactly the reason you seem to be pointing at.
Sorry, no, they are evil basterds, they are abusive ad hominem junkies, and they deserve the failure that they are so easily earning.
"Pot calling the kettle black (aka hypocrisy).
Addind, name calling that is so common here, it shows you've already failed to grasp even the fundamentals. Love not fear; union, not division."
No, I grasp these ideals fine. But no amount of loving satan will change the fact that satan is evil and no amount of peace and love and light and koombyas will change the behavior of such evil basterds. Trying to work with such evil basterds is self defeating.
"Saying 'TVP== Jacque's designs' further shows you've already failed to grasp the basics."
I'm not interested in his designs, I use autocad and I actually have knowledge of things like engineering.
But you can click the link and download my sketchup files any time.
"Maybe instead of trying to tell everyone how much someone else sucks to prop yourself up,"
Thats not what i am doing. I am confronting abusive and evil people who are in the way of actual postive social change. This has nothing to do with propping myself up. I tried to work with them and they proved that they were evil basterds. They are evil basterds. What part of they are evil basterds do you not understand?
"you should look in the mirror and educate yourself on basic compassionate communication."
You should go look that up on the forum and see how i posted links to it on five different threads. And note that nobody else said a word about it or even knew what I was talking about.
"With all the childish name calling on this and the CS site it's no wonder most people I've met think you guys are still in high school. "
Cheap ad hominems right after compassionate language argument. Now thats hypocrisy in action.
"And that gives high schoolers a bad name.
Lastly, it's like you don't even know history. Your attitude suggests you've never looked into why progressive social movements fail; "
I know why they fail better than you do and I know the psychology and sociology of it and I have been on the front lines for years.
"they fail more often than not because not enough interested people can get over themselves & act like grown ups to put aside their little squabbles for the better of the whole."
Again, I tried to be bigger than all of this. The result was that I was banned. Without cause, without a reason, without explanation, ... with the excuse that i was spamming, which i was not, and in response to me pointing out rightly that vtv was attacking somebody else instead of being a moderator.
"Surely you see that? That is clear no? If it is, then what are you doing if not exactly that?"
Because i did exactly that, and the result was evil basterds banned me.
"Sorry to say this, but grow up already..."
No, i am grown up already. You grow up and get back to me when you can engage in design process instead of defending evil basterds.
I'm still waiting on the whole of all of these movements on even ONE person to actually begin codesign with me.
Compared to ALL of the REST of you, I'm the one with the design process and autocad and you are a bunch of sniveling morons defending evil basterds- NOT working on solving civilizations problems.
"Get some perspective outside of yourself. There's more important stuff going on here. You're your own worse enemy & the constant whining on this site is just embarrassing."
Your long list of ad hominems is boring me.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 12:56 am | Reply

Again, you prove your whole position of denouncing TZM/TVP stems from some personal interactions with a small number of people. You place your emotional interactions higher than the priority of actually solving these issues.
As if such attitude is going to help us solve these issues.
You've made my point very well.
Hope you can get over your personal issues.
Good luck to you just the same! :)
Joseph Matthew said this on July 17, 2010 at 1:09 am | Reply

Again you miss the point that he tried to solve the problems on your forum, where a moderator was abusing his power to win an argument and curtail a person who was beating him fair and square in the confines of the forums rules.
After being pointed out in private and refusing to cooperate and then being made public upon this, said moderator then proceeded to continue his abuse of power on the person who pointed it out, which led to a banning.
What dont you understand about this?
Are you so deluded and biased that you can not see how he was trying to help the movement towards a positive end by guiding the moderator into better action?
Or is it ok for moderators to behave in any manner and abuse power so long as they agree with your ideology ?
You are a judgemental fool who does not understand the effects of bias on your conduct, you attack all that disagree with you in the belief you are furthering your cause for humanity in a positive way, when in fact you are a disincentive to anyone reading your words to bother joining.
Your hypocrisy could not be more self evident and you are not winning an argument you know nothing about.
By the way those are rhetorical questions I dont expect a single honest unbiased answer from you, I already know your character flaws.
anticultist said this on July 17, 2010 at 1:15 am

No, I've repeatedly accepted that he tried to express himself and it didn't get along with the forum admins, so now he derides the whole movement.
That's not in dispute.
What I'm saying, what seems to be missing, is that none of that is more important than solving the inherit issues.
That there is more to these issues than personal squabbles. If he was serious about solving these issues, he'd know that "together is better" and wouldn't let some minor squabbles become more important than the efforts.
Should be clear enough for you, no? (am ignoring your obvious attempts at antagonism)
Joseph Matthew said this on July 17, 2010 at 1:22 am

How can he be together with a movement that bastardised him and banned him for pointing out their misconduct ?
How can he work alongside those who dont consider him worthy of any regard?
You miss the obvious, he cant work with anyone who does not even consider him worthy of working with. Therefore he is now left to traverse the internet like before trying to find individuals who are willing to act and participate in furthering matters.
You are not as smart as you think, if you were you would not overlook such glaring facts.
anticultist said this on July 17, 2010 at 1:25 am

How can he be together with a movement that bastardised him and banned him for pointing out their misconduct ?
Because the forums are not the movement. A fact you guys love to make fun of, but then refuse to even consider as useful to your own goals. Silly, silly.
How can he work alongside those who dont consider him worthy of any regard?
Do what you do in any such situation, find others who are more supportive. With a member base of over 400k, surely there are some?
You miss the obvious, he cant work with anyone who does not even consider him worthy of working with. Therefore he is now left to traverse the internet like before trying to find individuals who are willing to act and participate in furthering matters.
If you say so.
Or, if you're working within a group and doing so in a civil way, with mutual respect, then you shouldn't have problems. If you still do, then find others. It's no different than real life.
What is totally ridiculous is using such experiences as an excuse to deride the _entire movement_ from such minor things.
You give people you say are not worth anything all your power when you use them as your excuse to drop-out & name call.
I hope you can see this some day.
(once again ignoring your tiresome attempts to antagonize -how old are we?)
Joseph Matthew said this on July 17, 2010 at 2:05 am

And what do you think he is doing by going to various groups and discussing matters and presenting information and getting involved?
Surely it must be obvious to even you he is not sitting on his arse traversing the net looking for people who disagree with his ideologies like you do all day.
As far as mutual respect, thats just extraneous nonsense, and highly superficial. Because TZM dont get on with anyone they disagree with, in fact they scapegoat and blame them for all manner of things, Peter Merola makes umpteen posts demonising groups, people, government, bankers, dissenters etc..
Dont even bother with high moral ground here its transparent, we all read and know the shit that goes down in your little cult clique.
The forums are not the movement eh, thats another canned response zeitgeisters give, go here and read up on your own little schemes that we are all aware about:
http://conspiracyscience.com/blog/2010/06/19/zeitgeisters-greatest-hits-confronting-canned-responses-to-criticisms-of-the-zeitgeist-movement/
Silly silly
You dont have a member base of 400k, you have 400k people who clicked join, you have a hundred or so active participants, and again how the fuck can he talk to them when he is banned from a forum for pointing out a moderators misconduct?
What dont you understand about him not having access to their database of users?
Also what makes you think he wants to be affiliated with your group any longer?
You are not even of significance to anywhere but the internet forum you protect, outside of there you have no power or public sway, you are just a bunch of conspiracy theorists with delusions of grandeur.
You are incredibly disingenuous.
anticultist said this on July 17, 2010 at 2:25 am

THE ONLY PERSON IN ANY OF THIS TO SHOW EVEN A SMIDGE OF REAL RIGHT ACTION IS ME. I AM THE ONE DESIGNING BUILDINGS. I AM THE ONE SOLVING REAL PROBLEMS. I AM THE ONE WORKING AS A SYSTEM DOCTOR ON ALL OF THESE SPLINTER GROUPS, TRYING TO GET THEM MOVING AND GOING SOMEWHERE.
I AM NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR PATHETIC IDEAS ABOUT ME. TVP/TZM IS AN EVIL CHARLATANS SCAM AND IT IS IN MY WAY. I AM THE ONE WHO IS WORKING ON REAL PROBLEM SOLVING PROCESS AND CIVILIZATION BY DESIGN AND NOT ONE PERSON IN ALL OF THESE FRIGGING GROUPS HAS EVEN AS MUCH AS MANAGED TO ACTUALLY PICK UP A SKETCHUP FILE AND ADD A DETAIL OR ASK ME TO ADD A DETAIL.
pathetic.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 12:59 am | Reply

I was tempted to retype this into lower case, but I guess you did it intentionally to make your point so I will leave it as is.
Try not to exhibit too much shouty-ness though :)
anticultist said this on July 17, 2010 at 1:00 am | Reply


Anticultist blog comments continue...
http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/forum/5539/archiving-anticultist-blog-on-sp/3/#reply-8baa1c1b


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The Burger KingPosted: Jun 19, 2013 - 23:20
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I can't stop posting pictures of poop, what the fuck is wrong with me?

Level: 5
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Anticultist blog comments continue...


well, anticultist, i think that point does need a shout out.
The idea or inference that somehow I'm the one whos lacking in right action is particularly ludicrous, given that I'm the one solving the problems, making the models, working the assorted splinter groups,
dealing with personal psychologies, and etc.
These guys can't even manage a sketchup model and they want to tell me I'm just not getting a path of right action. Its ludicrous.
All of these groups are increasingly looking ludicrous. I say to them; "Show me your design process and your science facts. Or shut up."
"Again, you prove your whole position of denouncing TZM/TVP stems from some personal interactions with a small number of people."
the ones in charge, who, now have generated secret second accounts in order to hide their evil actions behind a cloak of secrecy.
What part of "secret police= fascism" don't you understand?
"You place your emotional interactions higher than the priority of actually solving these issues."
No, I work to solve these issues. You haven't done squat. You have attacked me and blithered on, and you are wasting time i might otherwise spend drawing a building or three. In short, you have no path of right action and neither does TZM. Even Pjs new energy videos are material stolen right out from under MY treatment as posted on their forum.
I don't care, and they are free to keep on stealing. But its MY work not theirs, and I'm the one doing it, not them.
"As if such attitude is going to help us solve these issues."
You haven't put in a single iota of problem solving process you can point at. not one. I have in fact done all of the work and more work as a single individual than all of TZM towards designing a new civilization and solving these problems.
"Hope you can get over your personal issues."
i don't have any personal issues to get over. I'm the only one doing any work.
-------------------
1. There are many different ways to derive energy.
2. Each of these methods has different relationships with the environment
3. Each of these methods has different costs and different benefits
4. Each of the these methods has different pros and cons.
5. A partial list of methods; oil, coal, shale, wood, gas, Biofuels (a. food crop, b. hemp crop c. algae) Solar, Thermal Solar, Wind, Tidal, Geothermal, Hydrogen, Hydrolic, Zero Point, Nuclear.
6. Oils relationships with the environment are
a. oil is ancient organic material that has undergone geological processes.
b. oil is removed from the ground via oil wells. Ie oil is mined from the Earth.
c. oil is burned in order to get heat and chemical reaction to create the energy.
d. burning it creates smoke. the smoke is toxic. it is multiply toxic to the ecosystem in multiple ways.
e. its causing global warming
f. it causes cancer
g. it causes acid rain
h. thus it hurts humans personally and the whole ecosystem as whole in these different ways.
23. Summary of findings.
a. Geothermal, Solar, Wind, Tidal, and Hydrogen Technologies together provide a clear and easy path towards green and sustainable energy.
b. Geothermal energy specifically is the solution which a realistic green energy infrastructure should be rooted in.
c. It is reasonable to project a total holistic solution in which 80 percent of our energy comes from geothermal, 10 percent from Solar, 5 percent from
Wind, and 5 percent from Tidal.
d. It is also worth mentioning that electric cars are a current and viable technology.
e. This is all of it simply a sumary of known and provable science fact. The only reason why most people don't know all of this is that oil companies
and rich evil jerks have spent billions of dollars to flood the public with propaganda and misinformation.
f. The other strategy of the evil empire jerks is to promote energy resources such as biofuels or nuclear power which create a situation of extreme expense so that they can continue to exploit our need for energy in order to make money. A Geothermally based energy infrastructure would provide
extremely cheap energy (especially over the long term) and this would be the death of the energy industry.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 1:36 am | Reply

"No, I've repeatedly accepted that he tried to express himself and it didn't get along with the forum admins, so now he derides the whole movement."
There is no movement. There is only stuckness. That is not me deriding, that is me pointing out fact.
"That's not in dispute.
What I'm saying, what seems to be missing, is that none of that is more important than solving the inherit issues."
And I'm the only one working diligently to solve the issues, whilst TZM runs in circles with its charlatans rat maze.
"That there is more to these issues than personal squabbles."
I agree, and that was my point to VTV and why he banned me.
"If he was serious about solving these issues, he'd know that "together is better" and wouldn't let some minor squabbles become more important than the efforts."
Minor squabbles?
WAKE UP! There is nothing minor about the simple fact that these are evil basterds and charlatans and parasites, that this is not a movement, because it can't move, and not social, instead anti social.
Its NOT a social movement, its a cult of personality in three tiers. If you want to get together and work on solving problems, by all means, thats what I do other than when i come here to knock down the big messy zombie cult thats only in the way.
"Should be clear enough for you, no? (am ignoring your obvious attempts at antagonism)"
You are the one who lacks clarity on this.
Everything that could be done to give them the benefit of the doubt and help them was done. That included giving them posts about NVC to work with, giving them posts about how to solve their problems in a real way, and even trying to be tactically nice to VTV even while he was attacking me.
I gave them 900 posts more than they deserve- especially when i saw right through them before i even posted.
I posted in their defense even, all the while knowing that i was actually being somewhat hypocritical.
I did everything humanly possible to help them and they proved diligently that they are nothing but evil basterds and social parasites.
That isn't me being mean to them, its a simple truth and in fact an understatement.
They aren't solving any problems and the very best that they can do to solve problems is to steal ideas from people like me and pretend they came up with those ideas themselves.
THEY are the ones with the issues, not me.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 1:45 am | Reply

Haha, yeah, maybe if you repeat it enough, you can believe it.
Or, instead of playing blame game, you can grow up and re-focus your energies on being effective within the movement, not letting some personal differences with 0.00001% of the movement's member base slow you down.
Just a thought.
Joseph Matthew said this on July 17, 2010 at 2:08 am | Reply

You need to take some of your own medicine and quit blaming others and go do something constructive.
That way I and all the others who come here dont have to put up with reading your verbal diorrhea, and you can change the world with your fantasy mind online elsewhere.
Just a tip for you, ignoring points made to you, arrogance and being a wanker online doesnt help you or your pet project one bit.
anticultist said this on July 17, 2010 at 2:15 am

" If we study memetics, we discover that mind viruses commonly don't go the direction the instigators intend. In stead, they choose their own direction."
This is true, and what we find for that principle in TZM is that this is why they spanw splinter group after splinter groups. The
epistomological value of their wedge issues are so high that as soon as people realize that TZM is stuck, they set out to try to
work on it themselves. At last count there are just under ten such splinter groups.
"Now add this to the chaos theory concept of attractors and what you get is that if TZM is near enough to the proper attractors, reality will take over and lead it to where it belongs."
There is that tendency, and its neat to have somebody bringing up these psychohistory points. However, status quo has been formed and is now protected by secret police. The energy capacity for staying stuck is thus far stronger than the energy capacity for real growth, and this might be expressed as a car up against a brick wall, spinning out its tires until its got only rims.
They can't progress or move, because it is their choice to maintain a status quo. As long as they make that choice they can maintain that status quo in their own forum. What they can not do is control the outcomes for the splinter groups which will continue to form as the cycle of disenchantment continues.
In this, to some extent, you are right. Eventually those attractors will push towards real right action, but only as a rebellion against the stuckness, and only because people will form splinter groups.
"So the question is: is it close enough to the proper attractors?"
Absolutely, its got all of the right attractors. Its also got a perfect replica model of Hitlers Germany, complete with SS.
The problem is which of those forces are actually dominant.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 2:12 am | Reply

you might make a comparison to a vore flower. Its got all the right attractors. A suitcase full of money, what appear to be naked and horny virgins, laying about the tree, a pile of gold coins, a map to eden...
all of the right attractors. But its still a vore plant.
It came up with all the right attractors in order to attract people into the trap. Evolution raised it up to generate better and better and better attractors. But. It is still a vore plant.
To be fair, what happened is that vtv and thunder are evli people who got themselves into the middle of something which wanted to be a pure and good thing.
But. Its still a vore plant.
Now, you can go have fun with the maidens and dip your hand into the gold coins and even the suitcase full of money...
but ...
you should notice that theres something attached to your foot, that won't let go, and that its pumping you full of feel good drugs while you start to spin in the dizzy heights.
Yep.
Its just a vore plant.
No amount of right attractors can change the nature of the beast.
And it will eat you and your time and energy and money and our civilizations chances for positive social change- unless you and eveyrbody else can be lucid enough not to fall for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorarephilia
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 2:25 am | Reply

hmmmm. well, if they are truly stuck, then something will have to push them over. As far as splinter group goes... diversity is necessary for group intelligence. There must be splinter groups in order for this movement to own the intelligence it needs. The question perhaps is how these groups interact with one another. The proper behavior of all is to amicably accept the necessity of diversity. It so happens that diversity is a natural attractor of its own, guaranteeing to begin with that TZM would split up into groups. It will be the interplay of these splinter groups which defines the true future of the movement. The proper behavior for TZM and its splinter groups is to acknowledge each other as friends rather than enemies, as the people involved are very like-minded even if they have disagreements, and to keep track of each other and argue with each other when they have time to spare. In this manner, information will inevitably flow at some rate between the groups. Attempting to coalesce the groups entirely would be a mistake, as that would incur a loss of diversity. The groups must compete against each other regarding their various merits. And the heat of competition will be that which supplies the energy required to enforce evolution amongst all of the groups. Ideally, the people would be aware of this necessary process, and accept it for its mathematical inevitability and deal with it in an optimized fashion.
Matt S said this on July 17, 2010 at 4:02 am | Reply

"Haha, yeah, maybe if you repeat it enough, you can believe it."
i don't need to repeat it or believe it, it is what is real.
"Or, instead of playing blame game, you can grow up and re-focus your energies on being effective within the movement,"
the movement has rejected me. there is no operating within the movement i have been ejected.
I am not playing any blame game. They are evil basterds. WHAT PART OF THEY ARE EVIL BASTERDS DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?
"not letting some personal differences with 0.00001% of the movement's member base slow you down.
Just a thought."
A pointless thought. This is not the member base, this is the leadership. I tried to resolve such difference and was banned.
Any energy given to them is energy wasted. Working within an abusive and evil cult is not doing anything to help humanity.
I'm not here to be one more attractor for the vore plant.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 2:38 am | Reply

I don't fully understand why, but it seems that you are not properly using the word attractor. The attractors of this system are not particular people, or money, or virgins. They are system structures which can withstand the test of time. The question that arises here is whether a ZM that is stuck can withstand the test of time without change. My personal belief is... no it can't, because they are too close to genuine attractors that will impose pressures upon a stuck structure. This blog is an example of just such a pressure. But the pressure will be more pervasive than just a few people who have complaints. The pressure will impose itself on all of the members of the ZM in its own manner and form.
Matt S said this on July 17, 2010 at 4:10 am | Reply

Such pressure will be applied should they gain any notoriety in the outside world off the internet and off their forum. Without any scientific data/research and the public knowledge of them being a conspiracy theory based movement, this alone will either force them to retreat and re evaluate, die a sudden embarassing death, or admit wrong doing and evolve.
anticultist said this on July 17, 2010 at 4:14 am

"If you say so.
Or, if you're working within a group and doing so in a civil way, with mutual respect, "
I gave vtv and thunder respect even as they were attacking me.
it is their issue, not mine, that creates this problem.
i gave them respect, they are evil basterds.
AGAIN;
WHAT PART OF THEY ARE EVIL BASTERDS DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?
"then you shouldn't have problems. If you still do, then find others. It's no different than real life."
In real life I would either whoop their pathetic asses in hand to hand combat or i'd whoop their pathetic asses in argument. This is not real life, this is the internet, and the only way they can win is to deny me access.
Even there they lose, because I am the one solving problems and all they can do is copy and video-ify.
"What is totally ridiculous is using such experiences as an excuse to deride the _entire movement_ from such minor things."
you keep saying that like its some sort of big thing. There is no movement, because they keep it stuck. I don't deride the entire movement and in fact i post things from it on my face book page.
I stick up for Frescoe even sometimes here and even on occasion against anticultist. I stick up for Peter Joseph even, sometimes here.
I'm not generalizing everything into one basket, thats your cheap straw man argument, and its as cheap and stupid and wrong and pig headed as all the rest of your arguments.
"You give people you say are not worth anything all your power when you use them as your excuse to drop-out & name call."
I didn't drop out, i was kicked out. I'm not name calling, I am reporting factual reality.
"I hope you can see this some day."
i hope an epiphany catches you sleeping and that it doesn't hurt too much.
You are the one who needs to wake up, I already have clear eyes. I'm not going to go all delusional and foggy just because you are praying for it to happen.
But thanks for confessing accidentally to black magic.
lol
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 2:48 am | Reply

Have you happened to notice not once has he managed to convince us of any scientific facts or understandings, instead he's [Joseph Matthews] just attacked you.
This furthers our contention at how the lack of science is evident and in fact it compounds how unimportant it is to them, and that instead they would rather recruit or deride people.
Truly sad and also funny
anticultist said this on July 17, 2010 at 2:55 am | Reply

yes, i do notice. I score, he ignores it. I score, he ignores it. He says i don't do anything but whine and bitch and complain and i post
proof that in fact, i am by far the most right action active person around- and he ignores it. Probably didn't even click the link. Certainly didn't look at the files or load anything to sketchup.
Its zombie autopilot. they assume that everything they need to know is known, despite overwhelming ignorance, and can not be swayed to even look at reality as it is, just keep right on keeping on ignorant and clueless and cruising on autopilot.
The whole game is to attack me. Try to get at my credibility.
And it keeps back firing, and he keeps digging himself into a deeper pit.
And not once can he ever manage to bring up science facts or information or link us to a proof that TVP/TZM has any science facts.
Its like talking to a computer. If this was a turning test, we would all pick the computer.
It would behave more three dimensionally than this if it had a programmer with any skill.
In short, hes just blibbering on tit for tat and trying to imagine hes got some kind of moral high ground.
Its pathetic and hilarious.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 3:08 am | Reply

"The only thing you said of significant merit is that you could make guesses at what life may be like with a warmer climate by examining the fossil record. Seems to me that that would be pretty rough, since you need to match temperature as well as atmospheric conditions including carbon dioxide content. "
And you don't know enough to know how that would be done. But I know all about ice core samples and soil samples and how science can determine such things fairly well, so, I'm not concerned.
"And furthermore, your fossil record will be dubiously incomplete because it won't hold information about the most important factor which is oceanic algea and plankton."
thats certainly an interesting contributing factor but its hardly the most important. But by all means, explain how it relates to us.
"However, I will concede a few points for your side for that idea. Unfortunately, your attempt to break through the irreducible complexity argument just doesn't cut it."
I notice that you managed to add back in the "irreducible" part,
whereas before all you knew to talk about was complexity.
I love how even in argument you can't help but verify me to be the one who knows what hes talking about.
lol.
"In order to predict the carbon content of the atmosphere, you have to know how humans will be satiating their demand for energy into the future. "
dude, now you are raising the bar and playing evasion. This is spin and wank, pure and simple.
I don't know why you would think you have anything to say after the last round, you must be a masochist.
"You can't possibly know, predict, or guess such a thing."
Nor would i claim to, and nor does that have any bearing on whether or not global warming as caused by humans is real.
"The only thing we know at this point is that alternative energy sources have gained significant ground. Even assuming your simulations of climate had some staying-power for short-term prediction (and I have seen plenty of data indicating that climate simulations have gone awry) long-term prediction is hopeless. "
You don't know what you are talking about. I'm not interested in you blithering on. Long term prediction is entirely possible and
I can easily predict the long term consequences of our use of fossil fuels, and then give a variance function for our decisions as they change on how things get better or worse.
Quite pretending to have knowledge when all you have is propaganda and recognize that you are in a rare position to have the honor to talk with somebody who does in fact know.
You trying to carry on like this is like a 10 year old trying to argue with a college prof. You are out of your league and you are wasting your opportunity for education.
"Just like predicting the weather long-term is hopeless."
Predicting climate is different than predicting weather as climate is the sum total of weather over the entire year long period. This can be done with astonishing accuracy, and you comparing it to weather prediction only proves gross ignorance.
"My fart can predict the climate for two seconds. "
I'm sorry, did i say ten? You seem to be regressing younger than that, i give you maybe 7 or 8.
"Its going to be just like it was two seconds ago, only just a little fartier. If you think you have significant simulative control"
simulations do not control things, they model them.
"over any length of time worth making big decisions over, you are dreaming."
No, I am not dreaming. I know what is real and you don't.
"Plus, building simulators begs the age old prophecy problem. If enough people make predictions of the future, some day, one of them will pop up and assert that he got it right."
this is the bottom of the barrel. I'm disappointed. The irreducible complexity argument at least has some intelligence and
depth to it. This is so lame its hardly worth responding to.
"Unfortunately, no one will know which one is right until after the fact."
Science doesn't make predictions like that. It says if x and y and z conditions hold, a and b and c will be the outcomes. Those are sometimes called caveats. do you need me to define that word for you?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caveat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditional_(programming)
I suggest some reading. All of this argument is just proof you have no idea how science works and brings to question whether or not you were lying about your background.
"You just refuse to face the fact that all the meteorology clues in the world aren't enough to make reliable predictions of climate."
No, I in fact know that there is more than enough information to make reliable predictions about climate.
You are now arguing from ignorance, and making a statement without
backing up to causality. Its little better than an ad hominem and its not going to fly as an argument.
"All you can do is make a somewhat educated guess that will become less and less accurate as more time goes by."
No, we can say with certainty that given certain conditions there will be certain outcomes and that if those conditions change the outcomes will change.
You obviously don't understand basic statistics or math, even i, a math lame aspie wouldn't make such a mistake.
"There are plenty of climatologists who disagree with you already."
please, just quit bs ing and go read.
"If you can't predict the state of energy technology in 15 to 20 much less 100 years, you can't hope to predict man kinds impact on climate for any long term. "
I can predict those things, i studied energy science. Maybe you noticed that i posted some above? anyhow, we will either die due to use of fossil fuels or we will go green. the end.
You seem to have completely lost your toehold. There is a reason why we have things called model variability and why there are such things as if-then statements in code.
This argument has nothing to do with whether or not climate change is real and all it speaks to is whether or not in the future we will change.
"Its not irrelevent. Its a part of reality that impacts the simulation/chemistry you are trying to make."
It is irrelevant, you can't even hold together a solid string of causality or argument or remember what it is you are arguing for.
"You can't make a decent simulation that gets the answer right without including every possible detail of meaning into the simulation."
No, a model models what it models. The end.
"What is irrelevent is how good you think you and a thousand of your friends are at doing math or chemistry for that matter. What is relevent is a historical warming trend."
I have heard all of this bunkum before. In fact we should be in a cooling trend right now and thats what threw off things for a decade. But 2010 is now the hottest year on record so far, again.
You don't know what you are talking about, and I am not interested in bs propaganda you pulled off of some denialist website.
"That is the only hard data on your side."
You are ignorant and so painfully ignorant you don't even understand how simulation math works or is considered by the science community. For you to try to tell us what data we do or don't have is at this point ludicrous. From a legalese perspective this witness has already been impeached. Me even bothering to answer you past that point is merely a courtesy.
"People are already working on energy technology, they have achieved a great deal of success, and it would be ludicrous to assume or even guess that they have suddenly all run into a road block."
I don't know what you you are blithering on about and I don't care. I have myself pointed out that we could go green and geothermal in under two years. This does not change the facts about global warming.
"In fact, there is little doubt that solar energy is more cost effective than coal."
We agree on something.
whoa.
"If they solve the problem, then all the jumping around and law-making in the world will just be a waste. "
So your real point is you don't like cap and trade. Well neither do i. So now what. Why do you assume I'm your standard liberal enemy?
WTF?
Pay attention to who you are talking to.
"And if government were really concerned about the climate, all they would have to do is put reasonble funding into alternative energy, which they don't"
I already knew that.
"Now, you complained about me focusing on the simulation idea. I would love to branch out, but I am forced by my conscience to refrain because this is not the topic of discussion."
Thats why you were supposed to meet me on facebook.
like so many other things, you just let that fly over your head.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 3:37 am | Reply

Well, it appears that we agree with one another far better than I assumed. I am happy to see that. Yes, my real point about global warming is not whether or not GW exists, but rather about the concept of making huge, long term changes in society to "accomadate" it. This is the only significant issue regarding GW, otherwise, its just academic. My argument is that your models are academic only. And you have essentially admitted the truth of this by saying "no, a model models what it models the end". You have severed yourself from the responsibility of producing something of practical value. Which scientifically speaking, is acceptable, so long as this is understood. Here is where the problem lies. The general public tends to believe that your models carry more weight than they do because they don't understand that they are only formal systems, and proponents of climatological legislation are only too happy to let laziness take its course here. There is not adequate evidence of the future impact of GW in the real world, or the long term accuracy of your models in the real world to assume that making any big decisions based on them will be of advantage. And further confounding the problem is the fact that "advantage" is a subjective term. Now, since you are not promoting cap and trade, it turns out that you and I have little to argue about. I admit that having expertise in meteorology is of value, and am pleased to see that you have accomplished that. You should be aware at this point as to where I draw the line.
Of course I am aware of the "if then" nature of mathematics. Thats what makes your models academic only. And of course models can be parameterized. That doesn't solve the problem even if it adds adaptability to your model. The problem is that you can't guarantee that anything your models say enables you to make big decisions. Also, Joanne Nova, climatologist, disagrees that you have control of the behavior of the chemistry. For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert. However, this need no longer be an item of concern between us. I see no further need to spend time on this topic, and considering your behavior, I am not at this point in time willing to allow you to take up space and time on my facebook account. However, seeing that you are genuinely of meaningful intelligence, I intend to see if some sort of friendship can be formed, as you may potentially be a valuable ally. Keep in mind please that to be considered a valuable ally requires more than simply demonstrating your command of meaningful topics.
Matt S said this on July 17, 2010 at 4:53 am | Reply

"Shock: Global temperatures driven by US Postal Charges"
correlation does not imply causation. I can't believe anybody would have the gall to enter this site as some kind of meaningful argument. Its a parody site and its ignorant and stupid.
It has nothing to say worth bothering to listen to unless you are one of the faithful denialist sheeple looking for a good laugh.
To anyone else its not funny, just stupid.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 3:42 am | Reply

Anyone can blurt insults. Doing so when the person you are insulting is not around to respond is just another straw-man tactic. If you have complaints against Miss/Mrs. Nova, climatologist, confront her yourself. I'm not here to defend her personal points. I merely pointed out that not all climatologists are in agreement. I can only stand for the things I personally understand.
Matt S said this on July 17, 2010 at 4:59 am | Reply

Just go here and discuss things and read things to go further on this
http://www.facebook.com/prometheus.pan
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 4:07 am | Reply

"mmmm. well, if they are truly stuck, then something will have to push them over."
You aren't listening. They can remain stuck for as long as they choose that. Which should be forever.
"As far as splinter group goes... diversity is necessary for group intelligence. There must be splinter groups in order for this movement to own the intelligence it needs."
lol. No. No. No. If they were honest, and didn't have serious flaws, they could harnass all of that energy from one site and diversity would come in the form of actual conversation and input.
The fact that people can only express themselves by forming splinter groups proves the point that they can't express themselves freely inside of the cult.
"The question perhaps is how these groups interact with one another. The proper behavior of all is to amicably accept the necessity of diversity. "
Diversity is nice, and it would be nice if they were to get along better, and i have tried to reach out to several of them, but it tends to end up that nobodies lucid enough to finish a pancake recipe, let alone redesign civilization. The real truth is that if all of the splinter groups were to come back together they just might have the talent and knowledge and skill in the whole of it to pull it off.
Diversity is great, but diversity can happen inside of one movement if that movement isn't totalitarian + Fascistic like TVP.
"It so happens that diversity is a natural attractor of its own, guaranteeing to begin with that TZM would split up into groups."
no. Diversity is fine. Splinter groups is a symptom of problems. Real and positive diversity would be reflected in a longer forum list of scientific disciplines and projects. Not 10 or 50 splinter groups. The failure to give those people a place to work and function inside of TVP is a proof of TVPs dysfunctionality.
"It will be the interplay of these splinter groups which defines the true future of the movement."
there isn't much interplay. Each has mostly gone off in its own direction and each more or less keeps to itself.
"The proper behavior for TZM and its splinter groups is to acknowledge each other as friends rather than enemies,"
sounds nice. Being as much as associated with RBEF or RBOSE is cause for banning at TVP.
"as the people involved are very like-minded even if they have disagreements,"
sounds nice, but it is not the reality.
"and to keep track of each other and argue with each other when they have time to spare. In this manner, information will inevitably flow at some rate between the groups."
this doesn't happen. Glenn Poston/ aka Humanity tried to get them together and so have i. They barely have the energy to figure out how to have a functional group... and really they don't have that.
RBOSE is a troll cult itself, Atlas city can't even manage to design a tool shed, and the most lucid by far of the splinter groups- RBEF is so merciful and generous and light that it lets people walk all over them and chase the user base away.
None of them have a functional metaprocess and none of them are conducting what could be called research with a straight face.
None of them are doing real design except maybe Eco Towns, and even there what we get is a sort of static macro map, not a detailed architecture.
" Attempting to coalesce the groups entirely would be a mistake, as that would incur a loss of diversity. "
at this point thats probably true, but it would have been better for TVP to not be evil in the first place and thus not drive all of those people away.
"The groups must compete against each other regarding their various merits."
no, really, they don't need to do that.
"And the heat of competition will be that which supplies the energy required to enforce evolution amongst all of the groups. "
you can't be serious.
wait. i think you are.
d'oh.
"Ideally, the people would be aware of this necessary process,"
there is nothing necessary or even useful about having them compete and in any case, they won't.
They don't even monitor each other, let alone compete. They mostly don't even know about each others existence.
"and accept it for its mathematical inevitability and deal with it in an optimized fashion."
Thats more of the same competition paradigm that got us into this mess, its nonsensical, and in any case those groups are not going to compete with each other.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 4:23 am | Reply

Nope, competition is part of the deal in neural systems of intelligence and in successful spherical modular social structures. Neurons compete in your brain for control over final decision making. The IBM pc manufacturing companies are competitors amongst each other, but because of this competition, they were able to defeat Mac. Same goes for chinese motorcycle manufacture. See "wikinomics" by Tapscott and Williams. Competition between neural domains in physical materials provides for flexibility and resistance to shattering. However, from you twos descriptions, it would appear that the competition may have become exaggerated to a point of being unhealthy. Yet one must admit that a: Nature his its ways and b: this system is probably not at a point of equilibrium.
Matt S said this on July 17, 2010 at 5:19 am | Reply

"I don't fully understand why, but it seems that you are not properly using the word attractor."
sorry, i'm 4 mixed metaphors deep.
"The attractors of this system are not particular people, or money, or virgins. They are system structures which can withstand the test of time."
yes, i understand.
"The question that arises here is whether a ZM that is stuck can withstand the test of time without change. My personal belief is... no it can't, because they are too close to genuine attractors that will impose pressures upon a stuck structure."
How long have you been playing this game and with how many different groups?
I just told you what the reality is. You can postulate away all you like but the reality is that they have chosen to be stuck and that decision is for all intents and purposes final.
All evolutionary impetus and inertia ends there, and all evolutionary energy and impetus is a tiny energy compared to the immovable objects of the assorted egos involved.
"This blog is an example of just such a pressure. "
What will happen is TVP will self destruct, probably getting itself embroiled in a legal battle. I alone could have them shut down and have the forum removed from the net for libel and
slander and etc if I had the time and energy to hire a lawyer.
sooner or later being evil abusive people catches up to them, not in an evolutionary way, but in a bite outta their ass sort of way.
As it is, things are going downhill for them fast.
"But the pressure will be more pervasive than just a few people
who have complaints. The pressure will impose itself on all of
the members of the ZM in its own manner and form."
In all probability, vtv or thunder, who think they can get away with anything because they have, will cross somebody whos got money and a good lawyer, and that will be the end of it. If that doesn't happen, in any case, the turnover rate at the forum is very high and they will eventually run out of fresh dupes.
It is only a matter of time.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 4:32 am | Reply

"should they gain any notoriety in the outside world off the internet and their forum without any scientific data/research and the public knowledge of them being a conspiracy theory based movement,"
If they gain any serious attention from the press or the scientific community they will not be able to hold up or bear that kind of scrutiny and they will collapse.
They won't be able to evolve fast enough or backtrack far enough.
Their big media break will be their first and their last, and in truth is think they know this, and thus shun media they can't control.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 4:37 am | Reply

"Unfounded insults & childish name calling from AntiCultist? "
no, the insults are entirely founded.
In your case it would be hard to find an insult that wasn't.
"Really? Surprise surprise. Proving my points once again; thanks guy :)"
I don't know what you think you are proving for a point, but in reality, any objective third party would find you to be a blowhard fool in over his head.
"Well, that's all the energy you guys are going to suck from me tonight."
As a side note, anti cultist, i'd suggest thats all the energy we should allow this particular idiot to suck from us ever- we have indulged several rounds of tit for tat with ignorant blowhard and he never says anything new.
"Do think you guys might be taken a little more seriously if you took the time to communicate respectfully like adults, instead of just spewing your hate and negativity whenever you can."
more moral high ground from an imp with a heroin needle stuck in his arm and delusional fantasies running rampant through his mind.
"I guess you'd do that, if you were able to. But since you're not... well you'll always have this site to turn to..."
err... we come here for the purpose and function of not taking it elsewhere.
"But of course, you and I both know being taken seriously isn't your true motive here. "
right, well, you keep on projecting and clowning around and hopefully anticultist will just deem your posts too unworthy to pass muster from now on.
"This is a hate site,"
No, its a truth site.
"trying to dismantle the good efforts of more genuine & accomplished people,"
All of whom are ignorant fools who have accomplished nothing more than stealing other peoples good works. Obviously the moron didn;t click the link or he would know that I'm easily more accomplished than TZM on several fronts.
"and nothing is going to change your position on that. Which is why any debate here is pointless; no possibility for change. Just a small handful of disgruntled want-to-be's thinking they'll prop themselves up by taking others down."
No, the reality is that we are the real movement, we are the truth movement, and we are telling the world the truth about a batch of evil basterds and charlatans who deserve to rot in hell.
This is not about propping us up or knocking them down, it is about doing the public the service of warning them about an evil and sick cult.
Your inability to grasp this and your attempts to turn it on its ear are frivolous and pathetic, and your double think and cognitive dissonance in the face of the truth and our information only prove you to be a fucktard of the first order.
so take your moral high ground, and shove it where the sun don't shine.
Anti cultist, i see no reason to continue to allow these posts to
make it to the blog.
Good, strong debate is fine. Running in masturbatory circles with a tit for tat double thinker is waste of everyones time.
"The funniest part is that you claim to expect to succeed in positive social change with your vitriol & negativity."
We don't have vitriol or negativity, we are simply lucidly aware of the fact that TVP is an evil basterd cult of personality in three tiers, a moron dupes vore plant, armageddon theology redressed for atheists, in short, a charlatans con game and scam.
Those are the facts, and your inability to digest them is your problem.
"Like somehow, in some bizarro universe, one results in the other. Maybe some day you'll grow up and out of this silliness."
right back atcha. I wasted this time to answer you i could have drawn a nice apartment building. I actually DO real design of a new civilization, you just attack us and BS and spread your fucktard noise.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 4:51 am | Reply

Agreed Prom this guys history, he returns and never brings a thing apart from his self importance and cult defending nonsense, he is literally a trickless pony.
anticultist said this on July 17, 2010 at 4:56 am | Reply

Glad we agree on that one. This other guy is hard work, but at least hes not doublethinking himself through fantasy moral high ground and feeding us the same rhetoric 5 times in a row.
"Well, it appears that we agree with one another far better than I assumed. I am happy to see that. Yes, my real point about global warming is not whether or not GW exists, but rather about the concept of making huge, long term changes in society to "accomadate" it. "
Thats a glorious confession.
"This is the only significant issue regarding GW, otherwise, its just academic. My argument is that your models are academic only. And you have essentially admitted the truth of this by saying "no, a model models what it models the end".
There are some things theres no point in arguing over.
"You have severed yourself from the responsibility of producing something of practical value."
Not true, I design geothermal power stations, for instance.
"Which scientifically speaking, is acceptable, so long as this is understood. Here is where the problem lies. The general public tends to believe that your models carry more weight than they do because they don't understand that they are only formal systems, "
They aren't my models. I'm a third party to your civilization. Please try to get clear on that. I'm not in any camps and I'm not
representing anybody.
"and proponents of climatological legislation are only too happy to let laziness take its course here. There is not adequate evidence of the future impact of GW in the real world, or the long term accuracy of your models in the real world to assume that making any big decisions based on them will be of advantage. "
This is untrue but ultimately moot. We can change over to geothermal and green energy and should do if for no other reason that its cheaper.
We do know for a fact that what happens if we don't is ecosystem collapse and death of all life on earth as we know it,. Your motivations for denial are by your own admission political and economic.
"And further confounding the problem is the fact that "advantage" is a subjective term. Now, since you are not promoting cap and trade, it turns out that you and I have little to argue about."
Cap and trade is pointless when what we really need is a fast track off of fossil fuels period. Make them illegal, period. Cap and trade is just taxing the problem and not solving it, its like asking rapists to pay a rape tax. No, we need to stop the raping.
However, obviously, this has to be done in a way that holds civilization together rather than tearing it apart, in a way that employs people rather than leaving them jobless, and etc. Transition is very complicated but also very necessary. Its also entirely feasible. Cap and trade is not a part of any serious transition plan.
"I admit that having expertise in meteorology is of value, and am pleased to see that you have accomplished that. You should be aware at this point as to where I draw the line.
Of course I am aware of the "if then" nature of mathematics. Thats what makes your models academic only."
The models are not acedemic only, and if we don't quit polluting ten years ago every dollar we spend on fossil fuels will cost us a million dollars to prevent ecological collapse.
" And of course models can be parameterized. That doesn't solve the problem even if it adds adaptability to your model. The problem is that you can't guarantee that anything your models say enables you to make big decisions."
I can in fact guarantee that my big decisions are the right ones and that can be done without even entering climate change into
the discussion on economic grounds alone.
"Also, Joanne Nova, climatologist, disagrees that you have control of the behavior of the chemistry."
I would have to say that your use of the word control is suspicious and that generally speaking we have very little control over anything but ourselves and even there the reptile brain can take over and turn us into somnambulists any moment it chooses.
"For every expert, there is an equal and opposite expert."
In the area of climate change, this is not true, the supposed conflict is entirely manufactured.
Almost all actual scientists agree, there isn't really any argument in the science community, despite exxon oils paid shills.
"However, this need no longer be an item of concern between us. I see no further need to spend time on this topic, and considering your behavior, I am not at this point in time willing to allow you to take up space and time on my facebook account."
well, do what works to save face and get out while you can.
"However, seeing that you are genuinely of meaningful intelligence, I intend to see if some sort of friendship can be formed, as you may potentially be a valuable ally. Keep in mind please that to be considered a valuable ally requires more than simply demonstrating your command of meaningful topics."
You are right, I'm the guy any sane person wants next to them, and
If you test this you will find that I'm open to giving people
my time and energy if it can help them.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 5:16 am | Reply

Your/your groups models are academic only, because they are not adequately connected to reality to promise any ability for valuable changes of course. Amongst other issues, going green is already a planet wide agenda and was before anyone said anything about global warming. Furthermore, damage to some peoples climate will happen simultaneously with advantages to other peoples climates. Anyone with background in multivariate optimization knows full well that configurations that optimize for all variables are primarily nonexistent. Humanities existence will impose a cost upon the environment. Building advantages for the environment will impose a cost on society. Depending on how that cost is spent, some of it may or may not be returned back as returns on an investment. The ideal temperature of the planet for human existence is not necessarily what it has been in the recent past. Screaming "global warming" at the top of your lungs gives Al Gore and Cronies the opportunity to steal strength out of the system that could genuinely be used to help the environment. Your efforts could very well be backfiring. This is the nature of the real world.
Now regarding you/you two being the sane ones. It does appear at least so far that you are both well educated. That's a plus on your side. However, I tend to wonder just how things will go. For starters, if you really wish to come off as the sane ones, may I humbly suggest that you exercise better restraint in your language habits, particularly for mr. anticultist.
Now moving on, if the two of you wish to add coherence to the ZM/related, I suggest that you/we/whoever is willing, make a genuine and lasting effort towards this ends, beginning with collecting/writing a run-down on strategies of collective intelligence as applied to these particular circumstances, including reference work and allow for some form of peer review. Such a genuine effort could not fail to be noticed, and humanity can not afford for ZM type effort to all be wasted. I happen to have some preliminary referenced text along this direction, but frankly, I have been searching for those willing to add their efforts to mine. I will also continue to spend some effort with them in order to gain some better feel for them and with your RBEF. I have noticed in the past that you two are not the only ones disappointed with the ZM for this very reason. Nevertheless, so far, I have mostly experienced cooperative behavior from their side.
Matt S said this on July 17, 2010 at 6:25 am | Reply

I dont claim to be sane per se, I just claim to be less bogged down in ideology and rhetoric, I am no more sane than the next person as I have my own flaws and crazy quirks.
As far as my language is concerned I just go with what suites the person I am talking to at the time, for instance I havent yet burst into an incendiary of abuse or verbal spice with you.
You will notice that is because you have managed to stay away from the markers that I see in zeitards on a daily basis, this is primarily due to the fact you are not indoctrinated into their ideology and are not a die hard fanatic. You should gather from this those are my reasons for flaming people, I am an ex member and had to listen to their garbage for too long, I created this page to express my disdain about them, so when they come here griefing me, which I dont do myself on their forum they get whats coming to them.
Whether you percieve that as shallow, weak, uneducated or whatever I do see your point, but it hardly matters to me since I know how it looks yet it doesnt bother me to always appear to be polite to people who dont deserve it. I know you may see my ways as harsh and abrasive but I guarantee there is only so much nonsense repeated at you day after day by the same people, or different people saying the exact same things to you before enough is enough and you no longer tolerate it. This is the point I am at with these fanatics.
Regarding your proposition to offer up my services to garner peer reviewable data and material towards the ends of Resource Based Economics, I have to be frank it does not interest me because I have long since moved on from the notion this is plausible myself [That is unless you are discussing local economies either state level or national level/or allied national level].
So it would remain in the realms of the likes of others to prove a global RBE possible through careful studies and research as well as practical examples and tests. This latter part of course is not feasable in the currrent climate since TVP requires a global RBE to be in place for it to be fully functional, they dont consider local economics as useful, so with this in mind its obvious why its not something they can even validate. After spending the better part of two years studying their claims and materials I have now realised there are far too many holes in their claims and beliefs, so have moved on away from even considering what they say as functional. But some parts of the idea are nice to consider, and would be humanitarian if carried out correctly.
So it is for this and other reasons I have since moved on to more local strategy thinking and smaller scale solutions for more managable problems.
anticultist said this on July 17, 2010 at 7:19 am

"Thats more of the same competition paradigm that got us into this mess, its nonsensical, and in any case those groups are not going to compete with each other."
What has gotten us into the trouble we are in is not competition, but pyramid shaped social structure, (which can exaggerate competition). Spherical modular social structure is the only other legitimate option I am aware of. It is not based on competition, but competition will naturally still be a part of it. One of your main problems with the ZM is that those people are still thinking in terms of pyramid shaped social structure. Fact that they put a quiz as a requirement to enter their forums is evidence of that. Fact that they are orgznized in 3 tiers is evidence of that. This is not altogether unexpected, as understanding of spherical modular structure is rare. When I saw the quiz, I realized right away that they were missing the second most important component of their organization. They don't yet understand spherical modular. But obviously if I attempt to ram it down their throats, that won't work, so I am still strategizing as to how to deal with that ideally. I have written a book which explains the topic, but it is unfinished and unedited. And its scope is more broad than that, making it not quite the right piece of work to shoot straight at the issue. Ideally though, I would prefer at first to at least partially identify myself with people who already understand the principles of this intelligence architecture.
Matt S said this on July 17, 2010 at 6:47 am | Reply

http://www.realclimate.org/wiki/index.php?title=RC_Wiki
This site debunks assorted climate denial BS.
Any further discussion on this blog about it, and I suggest anticultist that you just don't let those posts through the filter.
Its easy to imagine why our denialist doesn't want to take this to face book, He can probably guess that Its going to make him look like an idiot and doesn't want others to see him being a fool.
Thats his problem.
This should be the last post on this subject on this blog at least on this thread.
Aside from this, I think its clear whats going on here. There are political and economic motivations for this persons denial of climate change reality, hes not operating from objectivity of knowledge nor interested in truth; he just doesn't like the the idea of cap and trade.
This demonstrates gross intellectual dishonesty and the fact is that the conversation is thus over. At the moment of confession, we know all that is relevant. Arguer is ignorant, arguer is biased, arguer is living in a fantasy bubble version of reality, and arguer doesn't have the moral or ethical turpitude to grasp
why hes being evil or why hes being foolish.
This blog is not here to explore climate denialism, but it does give us a window into this persons willingness to bend the truth and operate from ignorance and bias, to knowingly distort and argue from ignorance not out of a quest for truth, but out of apolitical motivation.
Witness has been impeached.
the end.
Anything witness has to say from now on can be taken as probable junk.
"Yes, my real point about global warming is not whether or not GW exists, but rather about the concept of making huge, long term changes in society to "accomadate" it. This is the only significant issue regarding GW, otherwise, its just academic. "
with or without you, i will be exploring climate change on face book.
I realize thats not where you want your humiliation to be, but thats not my problem.
Now, regarding the other post.
"Nope, competition is part of the deal in neural systems of intelligence and in successful spherical modular social structures. "
No, the competition model is the problem, and it does not lead to right action. In this case we are already competing against the current dominant paradigm, competition between groups would be doubly silly.
"Neurons compete in your brain for control over final decision making. "
No, you and others linguistically frame it that way, but neurons don't have gladiator sports.
"The IBM pc manufacturing companies are competitors amongst each other, but because of this competition, they were able to defeat Mac. "
Some might argue a better path would be to just work on a path of right action.
"Same goes for chinese motorcycle manufacture."
A perfect example ; why not hoverbikes? Not real competition.
"See "wikinomics" by Tapscott and Williams. Competition between neural domains in physical materials provides for flexibility and resistance to shattering. "
And makes wikipedia the most junkified gobbledygook mass scam of a non encyclopedia propaganda site ever.
In short, ruining the potential for something far more evolved to happen.
"However, from you twos descriptions, it would appear that the competition may have become exaggerated to a point of being unhealthy. "
Thats easy to happen, almost all so called competition is unhealthy.
"Yet one must admit that a: Nature his its ways and b: this system is probably not at a point of equilibrium."
One must admit that competition is the old primitive model and that collaboration is a different and better model.
Collaboration is better and more evolved and doesn't waste as much energy.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 7:16 am | Reply


Anticultist blog comments continue...
http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/forum/5539/archiving-anticultist-blog-on-sp/3/#reply-53908a5c


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The Burger KingPosted: Jun 19, 2013 - 23:24
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I can't stop posting pictures of poop, what the fuck is wrong with me?

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Anticultist blog comments continue...


What has gotten us into the trouble we are in is not competition, 'but pyramid shaped social structure, (which can exaggerate competition).'
And you don't see how its actually both, and how they are linked.
"Spherical modular social structure is the only other legitimate option I am aware of.'
thats good...
you are aware of it..
"It is not based on competition, but competition will naturally still be a part of it. '
from an evolved perspective competition is a waste of energy,
and collaboration is better.
"One of your main problems with the ZM is that those people are still thinking in terms of pyramid shaped social structure. Fact that they put a quiz as a requirement to enter their forums is evidence of that."
very true, and, theres more evidence then you seem to realize.
"Fact that they are orgznized in 3 tiers is evidence of that. This is not altogether unexpected, as understanding of spherical modular structure is rare. When I saw the quiz, I realized right away that they were missing the second most important component of their organization. They don't yet understand spherical modular."
they don't understand anything unless they steal an idea from somebody else.
They have no research department. They are ignorant on almost every subject, sociology systems is just one of many.
"But obviously if I attempt to ram it down their throats, that won't work, so I am still strategizing as to how to deal with that ideally. "
It can't be dealt with. Thunder and VTV are power junkies period.
They won't give up power under any conditions.
The only chance is to convince PJ of this. Good luck with that.
"I have written a book which explains the topic, but it is unfinished and unedited."
well... if its worthy...we might find common ground to collaborate there.
"And its scope is more broad than that, making it not quite the right piece of work to shoot straight at the issue. Ideally though, I would prefer at first to at least partially identify myself with people who already understand the principles of this intelligence architecture."
me 2. RBEF comes close, I suggest you try there.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 7:25 am | Reply

"Your/your groups models are academic only, because they are not adequately connected to reality to promise any ability for valuable changes of course."
You seem to have me confused with somebody else. I am radically connected to paths of right action and real solutions.
"Amongst other issues, going green is already a planet wide agenda and was before anyone said anything about global warming. Furthermore, damage to some peoples climate will happen simultaneously with advantages to other peoples climates. Anyone with background in multivariate optimization knows full well that configurations that optimize for all variables are primarily nonexistent."
You don't seem to get what ecological collapse means or what 150 degrees for average surface temp would do to this planet.
"Humanities existence will impose a cost upon the environment. "
That does not have to be true. In fact, we can garden the environment and make it win/win.
You imagine it to be either us or the environment, in reality we are only part of the ecological system, and so if we harm the environment we harm ourselves.
"Building advantages for the environment will impose a cost on society."
No, that can happen, but it does not have to.
"Depending on how that cost is spent, some of it may or may not be returned back as returns on an investment. The ideal temperature of the planet for human existence is not necessarily what it has been in the recent past.'
You don't grasp the danger of runaway climate change or how once it starts natures sequestered carbon makes things worse than mere humans...obviously.
"Screaming "global warming" at the top of your lungs gives Al Gore and Cronies the opportunity to steal strength out of the system that could genuinely be used to help the environment.'
paranoid delusions on one hand and important safety tip on the other. Al Gore is an idiot. But hes a well intentioned idiot.
I am well aware of how this is being played by the elites to make them richer.
"Your efforts could very well be backfiring. This is the nature of the real world."
No, because i know what to focus on.
"Now regarding you/you two being the sane ones. It does appear at least so far that you are both well educated. That's a plus on your side. However, I tend to wonder just how things will go. For starters, if you really wish to come off as the sane ones, may I humbly suggest that you exercise better restraint in your language habits, particularly for mr. anticultist."
I have brought this to his attention before.
Somehow i doubt either of us would display his restraint if we ran the blog and had to deal day in and out with the fucktards.
This is what it is. I'm the aspie genius and the closest you get to an angel for this generation. I'm going to cuss when its needed because sometimes you have to hit the tards oer the head with a hammer.
Anticultist does it too much, but, thats how it goes.
"Now moving on, if the two of you wish to add coherence to the ZM/related, I suggest that you/we/whoever is willing, make a genuine and lasting effort towards this ends, beginning with collecting/writing a run-down on strategies of collective intelligence as applied to these particular circumstances, "
Thats a great idea. Lets collaborate on facebook.
"including reference work and allow for some form of peer review. Such a genuine effort could not fail to be noticed, and humanity can not afford for ZM type effort to all be wasted. "
You have some fine points there.
'I happen to have some preliminary referenced text along this direction, but frankly, I have been searching for those willing to add their efforts to mine."
Well, me 2. So if what you really want is somebody to collaborate with, it could just be that you are in luck. Why don't you post what you have in facebook note and we can go from there? Alternately, there are wikis we can use.
" I will also continue to spend some effort with them in order to gain some better feel for them and with your RBEF. I have noticed in the past that you two are not the only ones disappointed with the ZM for this very reason. Nevertheless, so far, I have mostly experienced cooperative behavior from their side.'
Whatever. If you have a positive path of right action to move along collaboratively with that trumps for me other issues.
As far as competition goes, lets see who can collaborate better.
I think you will find I will tend to win that one.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 7:44 am | Reply

Ecological collapse and 150 degrees average temp. are only in your imagination. You have no means of making legitimate projections otherwise for the very reason I explained. Reality disconnect of your models. See Mark Buchanans book "small worlds and the groundbreaking theory of networks" for a discussion of the resilience of small world networks. You are standing on nothing but your imagination. Its all a fantasy, a means of trying to make yourself important by means of fear mongering. The burden of proof for all of this fear lies on you, and you can't prove it. And even at 150 degrees average temperature, the poles will still be liveable, which they currently are not.
If you have good ideas as to how to benefit the ecology easily, I'm all ears. But I'm already aware that green energy is the most important one, and I am already aware that it has become as cheap as coal. Perhaps some permaculture type notions are of significance.
Now, your real opportunity to make yourself important is the real topic we are trying to discuss here. And as you stated, it trumps other topics. Frankly, I think we should make our own collaboration domain. I hear there is a place that will offer the web space at $5/month. The reason why I want our own domain is because the nature of collaboration domains is a primary issue because it provides a base structure of information flow, and as we develop our ideas, we will be able to sculpt our domain to match. i.e. "eat our own dogfood".. I am familiar with Tikiwiki, PhpBB, WordPress... and Tikiwiki may be the most meaningful option, but I know that WordPress has a lot of plugins that I am not familiar with that may change the picture... and highly modular structure is a plus..Tikiwiki is modular, but I haven't checked the ease of snapping your own modules in and out yet. The domain must be PHP/mysql based, and the code must be public domain. If you know of better options, please suggest them. I am reposting this at the bottom to make certain that it is not missed.
Matt S said this on July 19, 2010 at 9:24 pm | Reply

"After spending the better part of two years studying their claims and materials I have now realised there are far too many holes in their claims and beliefs, so have moved on away from even considering what they say as functional."
ergo, collaboration should happen some place else, this is not the place for it.
Anticultist is who he is..(thank the gawds)
Not somebody else.
I am at peace with this and clear about what this blog is and is not for.
prometheuspan said this on July 17, 2010 at 7:49 am | Reply

So far, from my position, the ZM web site is dysfunctional, and changing it into something functional would be impossible. The only real option would be to erect an alternative. Now when erecting an alternative, because ZM is leaderless, we can use their name if we want. But maybe we don't want.. we would want to use the name that we think would serve our purposes best. I agree that some of their beliefs are flat out wrong. For example, all intelligence architectures I have seen include models of competition. Even the highly praisable spherical modular organizations like PC manufacture and/or Wikipedia include a model of competition. Furthermore, while environment is important, Frescos pretense that its all that matters is not valid, and it shows ignorance of chaos theory. In fact, the entire ZM seems to be ignorant of systems theory, chaos theory, complexity theory, which is quite disappointing. That doesn't mean that they have to be trashed. It just means that the current circumstance can't be allowed to dominate. The way to see this is in terms of magnetic domains. A gazillion iron atoms align in the same direction and create a magnetic field which nature doesn't like, so it creates another domain that points its magnetic field in a different direction to help eliminate the first magnetic field. Nature uses divisions to compensate for error and problem. This is why a functional system must be modular. Modular structure allows the error/weakness of one module to be compensated for by another module. In combination, the set of modules is more able to manage all or most of the error/problem. Now, once we move to modules, all modularity principles come into play.. OOP is probably the best set of modularity principles I am aware of.
Matt
Matt S said this on July 19, 2010 at 9:40 pm | Reply

Wow oh wow, I feel a bit dazed after reading so much, so many nice clear good points and so many biased remarks aka rubbish... I feel the main goal is being accomplished regardless of those companies outcomes. Always dig deep and find the root to understand where movements derive from is something I learned along the way in my young lifehood. Cheers to success guys! Keep up the great work, i like your blog.
Hey before I go, I would love to network with you guys, you could cross construct criticism for a brighter future, if that's ok with you guys. So what do you say, is it ok to trade links?
The RSVP Network said this on July 19, 2010 at 1:09 am | Reply

Feel free to ping and inform us of your own findings.
There is plenty here to research about TVP/TZM which you wont find on their forum or expounded from their members.
anticultist said this on July 19, 2010 at 1:58 am | Reply

Yea, I have gone through and read a lot at various points throughout the net. I have uploaded info on peacersvp.wordpress.com
i own TheRSVPNetwork.Org trying to get intelligent folks like you to get rich with me.. if you ever spare a few minutes, check it out and feel free to jump aboard.
Namaste
The RSVP Network said this on July 22, 2010 at 5:18 am

Guys, cmon, how old are we?
The RSVP Network said this on July 19, 2010 at 1:12 am | Reply

It does get a little heated and childish at times, dont be put off by it, its all part of the territory and is generally just banter.
anticultist said this on July 19, 2010 at 2:00 am | Reply

I can see, passion makes man go madd! lol
The RSVP Network said this on July 22, 2010 at 5:15 am

[...] This will be an ongoing adapted thread. Watch and learn. Firstly I will discuss the Scientific Method: Scientific method refers to a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning. A scientific method consists of ... Read More [...]
The science that is missing and completely wrong in the venus project « Peace & Nonviolence Project said this on July 19, 2010 at 1:19 am | Reply

hey ho. you can find me all over the net as prometheuspan, since 1999.
"Hey before I go, I would love to network with you guys, you could cross construct criticism for a brighter future, if that's ok with you guys. So what do you say, is it ok to trade links?"
It would help to know which links of mine you would be most interested in.
:)
I'm very interested in collaboration and solving problems with others, so whatever you have in mind if its along those directions, by all means link me.
:)
prometheuspan said this on July 19, 2010 at 3:38 pm | Reply

Any and all good links/websites.
You are then very welcome to participate. Please tell me more about yourself and what you do or plan to do, if you could, lets not conversate about that on this blog to not bother the readers or owner and admins.
Thank you!
Namaste
The RSVP Network said this on July 22, 2010 at 5:31 am | Reply

Now, your real opportunity to make yourself important is the real topic we are trying to discuss here. And as you stated, it trumps other topics. Frankly, I think we should make our own collaboration domain. I hear there is a place that will offer the web space at $5/month. The reason why I want our own domain is because the nature of collaboration domains is a primary issue because it provides a base structure of information flow, and as we develop our ideas, we will be able to sculpt our domain to match. i.e. "eat our own dogfood".. I am familiar with Tikiwiki, PhpBB, WordPress... and Tikiwiki may be the most meaningful option, but I know that WordPress has a lot of plugins that I am not familiar with that may change the picture... and highly modular structure is a plus..Tikiwiki is modular, but I haven't checked the ease of snapping your own modules in and out yet. The domain must be PHP/mysql based, and the code must be public domain. If you know of better options, please suggest them. I am reposting this at the bottom to make certain that it is not missed.
Matt S said this on July 19, 2010 at 9:45 pm | Reply

"One must admit that competition is the old primitive model and that collaboration is a different and better model.
Collaboration is better and more evolved and doesn't waste as much energy."
I realize that the pyramid structures exaggerate competition. This does not mean that it can totally be done away with. Fact is, there will always be some reasons for people to be united and some other reasons for them to be divided. The genetic algorithm uses competition to select for the better solution to problems. (for example) There will always be solutions that are better and that are worse. And people won't know which are which until both are attempted. Ultimately, one will tend to beat the other one out. It's not just about a pyramid structure, it's about the cold hard fact that one pattern will inevitably take precedence over others. Now you can make attempts to minimize peoples competitive attitude, But if Chevies pickup goes 300,000 miles and Fords only goes 200,000, you have a choice to make, and you aren't going to base it on some idealistic philosophy, and you don't just want one choice of pickup, cause it could easily wind up being the bad one. People have to try out ideas that don't work, and they have to be competed out of existence. It's part of the math. Now, if you can find someone who is omniscient, then you can bypass this problem.
:-)
Matt S said this on July 19, 2010 at 11:22 pm | Reply

"Now, your real opportunity to make yourself important is the real topic we are trying to discuss here."
It may seem counter intuitive, but i don't want to be important.
I just am. It would please me just as much not to be.
The important thing is saving the humans. On the one hand from an abusive cult. On the other hand from civilization collapsing.
"And as you stated, it trumps other topics. Frankly, I think we should make our own collaboration domain. "
In essence, I have already done that.
http://issuepedia.net/index.php?title=Main_Page
I designed this for NI4D before they proved they were too lame to appreciate it.
Its now sitting idle waiting for enough people to find collaborating with me interesting enough to make it again interesting enough for me to work on it.
I am the admin and the primary authority there.
The only other person is the sysop, and hes got zero time.
"I hear there is a place that will offer the web space at $5/month. The reason why I want our own domain is because the nature of collaboration domains is a primary issue because it provides a base structure of information flow, and as we develop our ideas, we will be able to sculpt our domain to match. i.e. "eat our own dogfood".. I am familiar with Tikiwiki, PhpBB, WordPress... and Tikiwiki may be the most meaningful option, but I know that WordPress has a lot of plugins that I am not familiar with that may change the picture... and highly modular structure is a plus..Tikiwiki is modular, but I haven't checked the ease of snapping your own modules in and out yet. "
I favor wikis. There are lots of choices there and many wikis around. You could start a new one even, tho it seems pointless to me to start a new one when i already have 3 of them.
http://www.rbefoundation.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
http://ni4d-issues.rbefoundation.com/index.php?title=TVP
"The domain must be PHP/mysql based, and the code must be public domain. If you know of better options, please suggest them. I am reposting this at the bottom to make certain that it is not missed."
I'm open to any meaningful path of right action.
prometheuspan said this on July 20, 2010 at 1:46 am | Reply

Excellent, we appear to be on the same page.
Matt S said this on July 30, 2010 at 9:09 pm | Reply

"realize that the pyramid structures exaggerate competition. This does not mean that it can totally be done away with. Fact is, there will always be some reasons for people to be united and some other reasons for them to be divided. The genetic algorithm uses competition to select for the better solution to problems. (for example) There will always be solutions that are better and that are worse. And people won't know which are which until both are attempted. Ultimately, one will tend to beat the other one out. It's not just about a pyramid structure, it's about the cold hard fact that one pattern will inevitably take precedence over others."
I agree. Competition is an innate and primal law of human psychology and nature, and it will never be possible nor would it be worth exploring to do away with it entirely.
"Now you can make attempts to minimize peoples competitive attitude, But if Chevies pickup goes 300,000 miles and Fords only goes 200,000, you have a choice to make, and you aren't going to base it on some idealistic philosophy, and you don't just want one choice of pickup, cause it could easily wind up being the bad one."
On the other hand, you have the perfect example. Both companies only pretend to compete while fixing the technology level at 1940 and doing nothing by cosmetic face lifts for 70 years.
So in reality, what we see is competition between the castes and
fake competition being used to bait the lower castes into always buying primitive garbage from pepsi or coke.
This is not a real choice and its not a real competition.
"People have to try out ideas that don't work, and they have to be competed out of existence. "
There are other ways to pick the best path, competition is only the law of the jungle doing its method of choice.
"It's part of the math. Now, if you can find someone who is omniscient, then you can bypass this problem."
Omniscience sufficient to get ahead of pick up trucks, light bulbs, and most of the things we are supposedly competing over is easy to come by.
Because competition cannot be entirely done away with, the only sane option for true modernity is to focus as much as possible on collaboration. The two form a yin/yang duality- not a spectral duality, and actually meaningfully depend on each other.
prometheuspan said this on July 20, 2010 at 1:53 am | Reply

I see nothing to object to here.
Matt S said this on July 30, 2010 at 9:11 pm | Reply

"Well it grates a little on me to watch you treat people aggressively."
I agree. But never judge a dragon till you have lived an eon in its cave.
(dragons don't generally walk or wear shoes...er...)
prometheuspan said this on July 20, 2010 at 1:54 am | Reply

"So far, from my position, the ZM web site is dysfunctional, and changing it into something functional would be impossible."
obviously.
"The only real option would be to erect an alternative. Now when erecting an alternative, because ZM is leaderless, we can use their name if we want. "
I prefer NICE. Needs/ Instincts Centered Economics. Its three times as accurate, ten times more meaningful, and at least twice as nice. Its also not already taken, and its ten times more clevah.
"But maybe we don't want.. we would want to use the name that we think would serve our purposes best. I agree that some of their beliefs are flat out wrong. For example, all intelligence architectures I have seen include models of competition. "
I don't have a problem with that aside from the simple reality that since competition will happen no matter what you do, you can do your best for collaboration and then let competition happen on its own.
"Even the highly praisable spherical modular organizations like PC manufacture and/or Wikipedia include a model of competition. "
wikiepdias model of competition makes it literally stupid and evil.
"Furthermore, while environment is important, Frescos pretense that its all that matters is not valid, and it shows ignorance of chaos theory. In fact, the entire ZM seems to be ignorant of systems theory, chaos theory, complexity theory, which is quite disappointing."
I had noticed this but till now there was no-one to complain to.
" That doesn't mean that they have to be trashed. It just means that the current circumstance can't be allowed to dominate. The way to see this is in terms of magnetic domains. A gazillion iron atoms align in the same direction and create a magnetic field which nature doesn't like, so it creates another domain that points its magnetic field in a different direction to help eliminate the first magnetic field. Nature uses divisions to compensate for error and problem. This is why a functional system must be modular. Modular structure allows the error/weakness of one module to be compensated for by another module. "
I agree, and my designs are generally wall and tower modules which can be constructed independently and then joined.
"In combination, the set of modules is more able to manage all or most of the error/problem. Now, once we move to modules, all modularity principles come into play.. OOP is probably the best set of modularity principles I am aware of."
Okay, for the rest of the folks, tell us why, and what that is.
:)
prometheuspan said this on July 20, 2010 at 2:06 am | Reply

(OOP next paragraph) have never heard such a comment about wikipedia being evil. Though Wikinomics discussed some efforts of Wikipedia to develop a weighting system for peoples believability that might be worth careful examination. Perhaps this is what you are thinking of. I would like to see you explain in more detail just how Wikipedia is evil.
OK... OOP description as requested
OOP standing for "object oriented programming" was designed by experienced programmers/professors in an attempt to design programming languages to minimize redundancy in coding effort and maximize the flexibibility of the usage of code. Basically they crystallized a set of principles together to be supported by programming languages thereafter in an effort to make the most out of our programming efforts. These days, there is hardly a meaningful programming language that does not make use of OOP.
Here are some concepts from OOP
The word "object" basically replaces the word module, and the word "class" basically replaces the word "template". An object is instantiated by following instructions defined in its template "class". Once the class is defined, making a new object is easy. Classes are defined to be templates for objects that have specific, well defined purposes, like gears in a machine. They are defined with flexible settings so as to make their nature adjustable to fit various circumstances. And when properly implemented, they have certain characteristics which make their usage pleasantly manageable with minimum effort and complexity
Encapsulation/abstraction
classes only expose interfaces to the outside world. Most of their behavior is managed from within and can not be accessed from the exterior, making them easy to use by simply instantiating them and telling them what to do via commands and such. This reduces the complexity of managing OOP systems
Inheritance: Classes can inherit characteristics from other classes. This makes it possible to use pre-existing code while just adding on some new code to deal with extra complications. It is basically a strategy of code re-use. Besides making code re-usable, it decreases debugging problems by having only one copy of code for a particular functionality.
Polymorphism is closely related to inheritance... this concept basically states that objects can potentially be swapped out one for another, given that the interfaces in use share a common definition. Implementation of the interfaces may vary, but as long as the interface is the same, other objects don't have to be reprogrammed to deal with every polymorphic variant of a class.
Use of these principles captured in OOP can simplify the conception and use of any complex system. As an example in the electrical engineering field... I was working out the details of some electrical drawings when I noticed that the prior engineer had injured the encapsulation principle. Two major components of a large system had some of their guts all intermingled, making it difficult to operate the components separately without rewiring the machines. I fixed the drawings to enable the two components to operate on different continents if necessary. You wouldn't want your heart to be in someone elses chest, to keep you alive, the two of you would be permanently stuck together... state/county/cith governments are something like separate modules with a degree of independence.
Governments of groups that almost copy the constitutions of other governments/groups are implementing a form of inheritance.
Allowing the constitution of the United States to be amended is a form of polymorphism.
Modularity principles are fundamentals of any good architecture, including without question, Intelligence architecture and social architecture.
:-) For whoever is reading I suppose
Matt S said this on July 30, 2010 at 9:52 pm | Reply

Reminds me of my c++ days back in university coding with microsofts sdk for some things.
anticultist said this on July 30, 2010 at 10:24 pm

"Ecological collapse and 150 degrees average temp. are only in your imagination."
No, those are the consequences of continued fossil fuel use.
"You have no means of making legitimate projections otherwise for the very reason I explained."
You don't know what you are talking about for assorted reasons which i explained. To top them all off, lets rerun a basic experiment. Put 10 sheets of glass 10 meters apart making 9 rooms and fill each with the gas equivalent of atmosphere for 10 miles worth of atmosphere.
Now, put up a artificial sun, and then add co2. The results are an oven. You don't need simulation mechanics, this basic experiment has been done thousands of times in thousands of labs.
Basic Chemistry and physics give us absolute rules and those rules must be followed.
Simulation mechanics is irrelevant, and you are too ignorant to know any better and you are operating from doublethink generated by an emotionalized bias.
"Reality disconnect of your models. See Mark Buchanans book "small worlds and the groundbreaking theory of networks" for a discussion of the resilience of small world networks. You are standing on nothing but your imagination. "
No, I am standing on mountains of knowledge and fact, and you are standing on vapid ignorance and giving me example experts who turn out to not even have the credentials they claim.
Thats right, i checked, and Miss Nova doesn't have a degree and has never published anything in a peer reviewed journal. Shes a charlatan, and if you believed her, you are merely a dupe.
"Its all a fantasy, a means of trying to make yourself important by means of fear mongering."
No, You are in denial and participating in a denial industry which exists to keep fossil fuels going. I am not a fear monger and I am hardly self important. In fact I am an aspie and that means in part that I don't have an ego like you do.
"The burden of proof for all of this fear lies on you,"
now you are reversing the burden of proof. The burden of proof lies with the stupid, evil, ignorant, dupes and charlatans and scam artists who are running contrary to science facts.
"and you can't prove it."
I can prove it and its been redundantly proven so in fact all i need to do is reference those proofs. You apparently didn't click the links.
"And even at 150 degrees average temperature, the poles will still be liveable, which they currently are not."
No, because super cell storms are another outcome as are 700 mile per hour winds. Fossil fuels + stupidity + atmosphere + time =
ocean and upper atmosphere exchanging energy.
"If you have good ideas as to how to benefit the ecology easily, I'm all ears. But I'm already aware that green energy is the most important one, and I am already aware that it has become as cheap as coal. Perhaps some permaculture type notions are of significance."
I don't know why you do this to yourself.
I'm not going to play. You can either shape up and start respecting me as an expert and quit trying to BS me, and reap the potential benefits of my collaborative energy or you can play childish games to the consequence that i will humiliate you and lose interest in doing anything else with you.
"Now, your real opportunity to make yourself important "
I am not interested in being important.
prometheuspan said this on July 20, 2010 at 2:20 am | Reply

"Now, put up a artificial sun, and then add co2. The results are an oven. You don't need simulation mechanics, this basic experiment has been done thousands of times in thousands of labs."
That's an interesting assertion about Joanne Nova. A degree is not everything. How did you check her credentials? Nevertheless, can you effectively counter her claim that historical evidence doesn't show temperature rise as being a result of CO2, but rather CO2 being a follow-up of temperature rise (on a pre/post basis)? Can you effectively counter her assertion that lab experiments as you described are of questionable significance, since a laboratory container of gas does not have all of the thermodynamic options that the atmosphere has?
"I can prove it and its been redundantly proven so in fact all i need to do is reference those proofs. You apparently didn't click the links."
You can prove what? That the planet has warmed a little bit? I am not debating that. That CO2 absorbs IR... I wouldn't debate that. Those things are not proof of 150 degrees fahrenheit in the future.
But all of that is really insignificant and hardly worth discussion in comparison to your inability to predict how much CO2 will be in the atmosphere in the future, especially considering the exponential growth of energy options like solar energy at approx. 40 percent growth rate per year. http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/04/solar_power_industry_growing.php this article says from 20 billion in 2009 to 90 billion in 2010. Holy shit!!! And in addition, since the price of solar energy has fallen, this means that the quantity of it purchased has gone up by a factor of at least five in one single year. And heavens to betsy.. all without a cap and trade law.
All of your mountains of data... they are evidence of what? That the planet is already aware of whatever stresses are there and therefore, naturally, already compensating for them.
Homeostasis..... first year chemistry.. Put a stress on a system, every part of it tends to react in a way such as to reduce the stress. This seems to be a common fundamental of thermodynamics. .. but also of neural computing architectures in general. Thats why people like you are out there scrapping about global warming, but you are not the only part of the planet. The use of fossil fuels has produced many stresses to which people were already responding long before anyone screamed "global warming". GW, assuming there is any validity to it, is just a late-comer.. and there aren't reliable predictions into the far future with enough trustable significant figures to guarantee that we need to worry about the word. The entire universe is a huge neural computing architecture, and was responding to balance stresses long before you had an inkling that they existed. Information is flowing and decisions being made on every tiny speck of the globe that are influenced by whatever stresses exist. You do not have the means of predicting the behavior of that much computational power, and neither does anyone else. It doesn't matter how big your data mountains are. It's (the ecosphere in its entire computational majesty) doing things that aren't happening in any lab experiment. Its smarter than you and way ahead of you. Supposing you could prove you are smarter than I... doesn't mean much... either You are pitting yourself against the intelligence of the entire globe and asserting that you have come up with some really important thing that the ecosphere isn't responding to yet, or your assertions are of limited value. .. The fact is... they are of limited (but agreeably not zero) value. Your lab and your computer can't out compute or predict millions of scientists already working on energy solutions for reasons other than GW that don't require any faith at all like:
increasingly low cost of alternative energies
Desire for independence from stiff, loaded economic systems
Too much distance to grid ties
Abusive electricity prices in many places
Filthy oil slicks and other pollution like smog caused by fossil fuels
Slow depletion of fossil fuels
War over fossil fuels, and terrorism funded by fossil fuels
Potential for conversion of automobiles to solar electricity which can be used more efficiently than fossil fuels simply because electric motors are considerably more efficient than fueled motors.. i.e. like 90 percent as opposed to 30 percent meaning now you can have triple the miles per KWH
GW is buried. It's like reason number 99 to convert to alternative energy especially since it's real threat is nothing more than a prediction. Its hardly worth my concern, despite whatever expertise you have developed, which I am more than willing to respect. Just don't ask me to believe that you can predict the real future to any really cool length of time and degree of precision.
I'm not against alternative energy, in fact, I'm all for it. But I'm against cap and trade, which is an offshoot of global warming. I'm saying we hardly need GW scare tactics to be moving in that direction.
Now, you have got a point with the 700 mph wind idea. Except that the existence of 150 degrees is not very believable.
And regarding your threat to refuse to collaborate with me... Thats a sensation I have been getting here, that some of you are so determined to be dominant, that even if you have good control of systems theory etc. it could easily come to nothing because you can't get along with others.. even those who are pointed in the same general direction. In fact, I would be willing to say, that if you can't get yourself to collaborate with me, a person with whom you primarily agree, then I have my doubts about any ability of yours to accomplish a meaningful collaboration. There is a lot more to building social structure than being right. In fact, sometimes being right can be counterproductive. So if you get all ticked off because I disagree with you on a few points, I guess I'll just count that as your personal temperament, and better to watch you misbehave now than to see it happen later. Nevertheless, it would unquestionably be a disappointment to see you have in such a fashion. And furthermore, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you will behave reasonably. And in return, I expect the same from you.
People have disagreements. That's part of group intelligence. Mindless copying of attitudes is detrimental to group intelligence, so don't ask me to do that. Emotional problems also weigh against group intelligence, so please don't go that direction.
Now, the first thing you guys should have done when encountering TZM is probably to avoid the forums altogether. It's obvious that they are just set up to promote TZM attitudes and that they are not a feedback system. The right thing to do is to attempt to find some TZM programmers and gain their interest. I have contacted a ZM programmer who worked on Joomla. I don't know if I can bring him around, but maybe you guys could help. ... or maybe not, depending on various things. If I can't capture his interest, I'll go looking for someone else, but the way I see it, we need ten programmers to accomplish much of anything cool.. Maybe 5 in a pinch.. 2 or 3 seems pretty weak, but its better than nothing.
And I'm glad you have already put up some domains. I'm counting on your assertion that you can collaborate better than I being true.
Matt S said this on July 31, 2010 at 12:35 am | Reply

interesting that you and Roan Carratu have the same IP Matt and post at the same time.
Both emanating from Sthe same areas
anticultist said this on July 31, 2010 at 12:39 am

If you could quit with the Global warming denial as well please I have asked you politely before, So this is the last time, anymore posts about it and they dont go on the blog.
Take this stuff to Prometheuspans facebook he is easily found. search the name and add him.
anticultist said this on July 31, 2010 at 12:49 am

Sorry about the GW stuff.. I guess I felt the urge to respond to his stuff.. actually though, I think I'd rather just dump it because it's not what matters most.
Yeah, right... to each his own... all I can say more to that is that if you are bent on maintaining limited connection to social values, you may still accomplish something meaningful by connecting with people who are more connected in that space.
One thing I have noticed is that it can be quite difficult to explain modern concepts to those who haven't invested themselves. In fact, even many people whom you would think would be quite prepared to deal with cool paradigm shifts choose instead to resist them. Especially older people who tend to have the idea that there are no meaningful potentials for paradigm shift. Tenured professors resist the language and assertions of complexity/systems theory perhaps even more aggressively than clueless idiots. It's like we are living in a world full of people who are reaping the benefits of modern paradigms, but don't want to make the effort to understand even some of the most basic issues. Try talking this kind of stuff even to experienced programmers... They don't know what the hay to say.. they tend to either resist, or simply disappear. Perhaps its because complexity/systems theory is not a topic that practical minded people like to spend time with. So the whole issue brings two question..
1: How hard is it to find people on an adequate level to have decent clues as to what to do. And how much do they have to know, and how are they best approached.
and
2: How can the core issues be exposed in a dumbed down fashion so that those of limited investment can understand their function.
In any case, I'm pretty sure that you have encountered the same basic wall that I have experienced many times over in various debate forums and internet sites. It's not really a TZM problem. It's a problem of nearly all of man kind that they have not done the work required to recognize the value of certain principles, and they are not much willing to make that effort. In fact, you two are the first two I have met who are up to speed. In any case, every time I fail, I get a little smarter. I will approach programmers I meet in the future more carefully and patiently. However, it may be of value to respect the fact that recruiting works better when approached by pairs of people who can witness to the significance of each others words.
Matt S said this on August 1, 2010 at 12:58 am | Reply

to be frank, your trip on GW brings into question your judgment.
"n any case, I'm pretty sure that you have encountered the same basic wall that I have experienced many times over in various debate forums and internet sites. It's not really a TZM problem. It's a problem of nearly all of man kind that they have not done the work required to recognize the value of certain principles, and they are not much willing to make that effort."
Absolutely agree on that, I have knowledge and that took work.
It means that i don't have an opinion and all mere opinions respective to that are meaningless.
"In fact, you two are the first two I have met who are up to speed. In any case, every time I fail, I get a little smarter. I will approach programmers I meet in the future more carefully and patiently. However, it may be of value to respect the fact that recruiting works better when approached by pairs of people w"
Yeah, being able to demonstrate a new modality for communicating is always a million times better than just asking others to grow up and get deep.
prometheuspan said this on August 1, 2010 at 5:45 pm | Reply

"That's an interesting assertion about Joanne Nova. A degree is not everything. How did you check her credentials? Nevertheless, can you effectively counter her claim that historical evidence doesn't show temperature rise as being a result of CO2, but rather CO2 being a follow-up of temperature rise (on a pre/post basis)? "
firstly, other people have checked her credentials and you can find their work using google. Secondly any true phd has to get published in journals.
thirdly, it is not an either /or case, ie, Co2 both causes warming and goes up as a result of warming.
that things are happening with time scale lag should be a self evident issue of the problem. Here, all you have is her evil BS;
transparently making hay out of time scale lag, and the simple fact that there is a cycle, which she has ripped clear of other forms of causality.
In short, her argument is ludicrous from the square one and infantile, and exploits your ignorance in order to dupe you,
which, you then have the audacity and gall to bring to bear in an argument.
I'm the aspie but your social skills are the ones that may need brush up.
First you go learn the facts and THEN you bring them to the table in an argument. Bringing a known propaganda whore to the table to call evidence is an epic fail on your part and generates thus a very poor mark for your public resume here.
Further, your inability to identify and listen to clear communication offered multiple times about forum and mileu is another epic fail.
We are so used to epic fail around here that we are patient with them, and so you still have a quota left to expend before all of your credibility is depleted.
The rest of this conversation if about collaboration should be about how that will be different from and thus better than TZM;
or it should happen some place else.
You have plenty of access to me.
This thread is about the science TZM doesn't have.
Can you effectively counter her assertion that lab experiments as you described are of questionable significance, since a laboratory container of gas does not have all of the thermodynamic options that the atmosphere has?
prometheuspan said this on August 1, 2010 at 5:54 pm | Reply

Hopefully he will take this to your own place of discussion because I dont want a global warming thread from TZM lack of science thread, no more discussion on it here allowed from either yourself or your opponent.
Thats all there is about that here guys thanks for understanding.
anticultist said this on August 1, 2010 at 6:00 pm | Reply

Can you effectively counter her assertion that lab experiments as you described are of questionable significance, since a laboratory container of gas does not have all of the thermodynamic options that the atmosphere has?
-----------
yes, easily. what part of this is not the place for that conversation don't you understand?
prometheuspan said this on August 1, 2010 at 5:55 pm | Reply

Well, I found a TZM programmer who is talking turkey. Right now, I am starting to think that you guys just didn't properly approach TZM. If between the two of us, we can dig up several more TZM programmers, you guys anti-TZM attitude will be dead for me. Nevertheless, because you are well studied, you may still be of appreciable value.
:-)
Matt
Matt S said this on August 6, 2010 at 2:06 am | Reply

Take it easy Matt.
I cant say I am expecting groundbreaking results from any particular group concerned with RBE, but keep at it if its what you believe in. You should achieve more than TVP has ever achieved which is not a lot so it should not be difficult to get past that threshold after a weeks work.
anticultist said this on August 6, 2010 at 2:12 am | Reply

While I agree that some kind of AI powered RBE is an option, I'm not interested in personally developing that at least not right away... though I am interested in learning more. The first and most important thing is to create a well managed, properly principled framework for connecting groups of people into a network, i.e. a large-scaled brain. and then convincing and teaching freedom movements to make use of it. I was with the guardians of the free republic the other day, and they seemed quite interested. I don't think it will be hard to sell freedom movements on connectivity at all.. At least that's how I see it. Once it catches on, freedom will become a huge, semi-unified structure.. Then we can look at what is happening and move from there. Once a structure of this type exists, ideas like RBE will take on new flavors and options. The best way to deal with these issues is not to assume that we can think up the ideal architecture to start with, but to try some things and learn from them, and continue to move towards what would seem likely to offer the most advantage. I.e. feedback evolution. That's another weakness of TZM right now is that in order to do what they want, they need to run some trial loops to see how their ideas really work and how they need to be adjusted.. That will take time.. time that will slip past them and give other architectures opportunity to take root, should such a collapse ever actually happen. . But in reality, TZM is hardly the center of the universe. People who want to try stuff right now will just go do it. The real value is to build spherical modular out of all of these groups that have slight disagreements and slightly different directions. At that point, the thing will become its own intelligence architecture.
Matt S said this on August 8, 2010 at 9:47 pm

The groups are all joining together already I heard.
RBOSE, RBEF,OSE and some others.
anticultist said this on August 8, 2010 at 10:33 pm

I am not referring to the unity of a perticular small number of groups. I am referring to a general philosophy and IT framework to support such unity and improve its speed and efficiency.
Matt S said this on August 11, 2010 at 6:39 pm

Have you guys spent any time with the guardians of the free republic? Their strategy is to dislodge the american de facto government and replace it with de jeur government. Technically, all you have to do to accomplish this is to populate the de jeur government, since it automatically trumps the de facto corporation. They are in the process of doing this, and there is nothing the corporate government can legally do about it.
Matt
Matt S said this on August 8, 2010 at 9:52 pm | Reply

Never heard a thing about this myself, would need to look into it to see what its all about.
anticultist said this on August 8, 2010 at 10:32 pm | Reply

http://guardiansofthefreerepublics.com/rationale.html
For those who are concerned about opening the door to satanic forces, permit me to reassure you. The Guardian Elders deliberated with great sobriety the wisdom of sitting on our hands while the march to World War III continues. We asked ourselves if we could continue, in good conscience, to do nothing while so many of our friends and colleagues are suffering hardship. We asked ourselves if we are enjoined by the Book of Revelation from acting on behalf of freedom and mankind. After much prayer and soul-searching, we concluded unanimously that the need for action was self-evident. We are called to action.
We debated how best to accomplish our goals. Could we reasonably expect to restore Biblical law to a devoutly secular population that cherishes television, promiscuity, physical debasement and electronic devices with religious fervor,....
If this is what you are sponsoring then count me out, its religious rhetoric inspired action. If you are putting any of your faith into this lot then I personally think it completely misplaced.
Using the book of revelations and religious dogma as a sole rationale for changing things seems to me to be a litle ridiculous. If they were doing it for simple humanitarian reasons and leaving the religion and beliefs out of it, then perhaps it might be something worth discussing ?
But then again it also seems to be hand in hand with the patriot and freeman on the land movement in some form too, which again to me is another thing I dont want to participate in.
anticultist said this on August 18, 2010 at 3:53 pm | Reply

Well it so happens that the majority of people in this country are religious, so their religion tends to show up in their behavior. It's also a fact that current law has a long history which dates back as far as one wishes to study it, and this includes various historical connections to religion. The guardians actually focus less on "religious" law than "common" law which inherently has some religious background, but in and of itself is not religion, but law which is still valid law in the U.S. Many elements of current law were defined long ago in common law, for example... what does an effort have to be to be considered an election?
The movement of the guardians is actually not genuinely religious, there are just a lot of religious people involved who in their minds connect religion to common law staged as history of current law. Constitutional law is also history of current law, so there are people who have all of these various histories at least somewhat sorted out. When they talk about restoring religious law, they really mean common law.
The real effort of the guardians is not to restore religion, but to restore the constitution. So in reality, one need not be religious to sympathize, as the constitution stands on its own merits as a hybrid between pyramid and spherical modular architecture, which is a healthy social structure, rather than pure pyramid power which is what the feds are currently leveraging to accomplish, which is a sick social structure.
It turns out that constitutional law is still in operation in this country, but only for those who have gone through a "redemption" process (which has only limited connection to the religious meaning of the word). Most or at least many of the guardians are what we call "secured parties" which means that they have excerpted themselves from the corporate united states based on the no involuntary servitude law and claims made possible by that as well as contract law regarding contract fraud. The claim of the corporate united states on a right to govern is actually fraudulent, but people are not aware of this, so the governance continues.
Secured parties own a complete set of constitutional rights. For example, a drivers license signed by a secured party with the words "without prejudice" becomes property of the secured party, making its removal by any police officer a punishable act of theft and rights violation (assuming the officer is given notice) because the constitution guarantees the right to travel and the courts have extended that right to the use of automobiles.
In any case, the guardians are not there to restore Jesus, but to restore the constitution by means of reconstructing de jeur government according to the constitution, which by law, trumps the current United States corporate Government. It so happens that the constitution provides for this kind of action by means of the power of the "Grand Jury", which in effect, is a fourth branch of government which is not controlled by any other branch of government, but by the people only. Grand juries have the power to make court motions without cooperation or agreement from any standing component of the government, making them a power genuinely owned by the people.
If any of this sounds confusing, let me know, and I'll try to help you sort out the details.
In any case, the machinery and definition for legitimate social structure already exists, and in fact, is valid and functioning in this country. It has merely been overshadowed by a loud, aggressive corporation posing as government. In a very legal fashion, it is possible to route that corporation and destroy its exaggerated pyramid structure.
However, what it comes down to is the age old law of competition. Just because law provides means of routing the United States corporation does not mean it will happen. The real De Jeur government must earn the complete power to do so by building a structure which is in fact more competitive than the corporation.
If TZM and other freedom movements were properly aware of this issue, they could potentially all converge upon the legitimate opportunity to replace the fake de facto government with a government that abides by limits of its power.
The guardians of the free republics already have the technology to do this. They are masters of law beyond what you can imagine as a mathematician. They simply do not have enough support, but they are growing. I will be spending some of my effort with them in an attempt to help them to appreciate the idea of making connections with other groups.
Realistically, there are many many millions of people who wish to resist the exaggerated power of the government/fake money system. If they understood each other and properly agglomerated, the junk system would be awash.
However, implementing RBE is another problem. One thing for certain though, it would be easier to do with a government of limited power than a government of unlimited power. But beyond that, a government of limited power would be better in general for the sheer value of the elements of intelligence architecture embedded in the constitution.
Matt
Matt S said this on September 3, 2010 at 6:16 pm

Nothing confusing about it you are talking about the patriot and freeman movement, and their claim that they can utilise common law to free themselves from the binds of the society they live in.
I am not American myself so the consituition has no value to me at all, but the constitution still exists as far as I am aware and people exercising ex patriation within the territory of their own country are breaking the law and are generally considered trouble causers who are conspiracists of some form. Believing they are somehow freeing themselves from some powerful authoritarian power.
anticultist said this on September 3, 2010 at 9:56 pm


Anticultist blog comments continue...
http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/forum/5539/archiving-anticultist-blog-on-sp/3/#reply-aabe6547


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The Burger KingPosted: Jun 19, 2013 - 23:27
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I can't stop posting pictures of poop, what the fuck is wrong with me?

Level: 5
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Anticultist blog comments continue...


Oh wow... "breaking the law and are generally considered trouble causers" OK, I can see that your picture of this is not very clear. United states law currently is not actually law at all. It is merely corporate policy, standing at approximately the level of McDonalds or Wal-marts corporate policy. The only hold they have on people is by means of contract (birth certificates, drivers licenses etc. ). So how did this really weird thing ever happen? Its basically like this.. the government didn't like the limitations on its power set by the constitution, so in order to be able to break the law themselves, they started refusing to file their oathes as demanded by the constitution. This refusal to file their oathes essentially disabled the constitution because they were not bound to it. Simultaneously, it disabled the authority of the politicians because in order to legally hold office, a politician is not only required to be voted in, but to file his oath. So, in order to regain their supposed authority, they cause people to unwittingly sign contracts with them, which hand over the appearance of government authority to the charlatans. This is what created what we now call de facto government. Because of it in this country, we now have people bound by laws, while government refuses to be bound by any. If you play by the rules and the other players don't, you will always lose the game. That's how it is... they are cheating. Its not government. It only practices "color of law". excluding ones self from this organization is not expatriation, its only about the same as quitting your job. These people are probably more patriotic than you'll ever be. Genuine government must obey the rules itself in order to merit genuine authority to govern.
Now, the single most significant trespass that the government perpetrates against the people is the destruction of their constitutional right to an honest currency. Reversion to the constitution doesn't instigate RBE, but it does the next best thing. It blows up the federal government/ federal reserve banking scam, which is a major hurdle for RBE and a detriment to the people. As long as those people can keep promoting themselves by money-scamming the people, they will always be in power. .. And I'm sorry that you have no feelings for the constitution. You really should develop a relationship with it. This country became great during the years that we held to that document.
Matt S said this on September 4, 2010 at 4:23 am

I think if you said this anywhere else you would get a barrage of arguments providing counter points, but since I am not really that interested in governments or politics you wont get much from me as its not something I completely hold with value. Government is not some tyrant to me, yes it has its negatives like most set ups and has its law abiders and law breakers. But I am not getting into this, to be quite honest with you its just a side track issue from the original blog post so that all there is to say on that from me.
anticultist said this on September 4, 2010 at 10:54 am

Also by the way... the guardians intend to hold elections and rebuild the constitutional de jeur government.. and as long as those de jeur offices are vacant, nothing can stop them from doing that.
Matt S said this on September 4, 2010 at 4:33 am

Oh .. by the way... promoting the Guardians is not any primary concern for me. I just like them because I think they have developed a good strategy.
Matt S said this on September 17, 2010 at 10:17 pm

lol. Guardians of the free republic. lol.
I'm sorry, I don't own a tin foil hat.
lol.
prometheuspan said this on August 18, 2010 at 7:34 pm | Reply

Tin foil hat? Jumping to status of "secured party" saved me $17000. Someone else I know has a 38 million dollar lean against the straw-man identities of two policemen who tried to abridge his rights. Tin foil hat? Look, I agree that you are intelligent, but don't be so proud of yourself as to believe that there is nothing of significance of which you are ignorant. The universe is way too big for that. Brains are fabulous, but they are also so damned puny that you just can't fit much in there. These people are way past you regarding legal issues. There is little doubt that you would fall flat on your face just trying to understand their language. These people know shit you can't believe. Tin foil hat? No, you are just living in OZ. That's the real deal. You don't understand legal reality at all apparently. Here you stand in resistance to the money system, apparently totally unaware of one of its greatest weaknesses. You need to get a clue. That's all there is to this deal.
Matt S said this on September 3, 2010 at 7:12 pm | Reply

Yup just so you know a lien is of no value without remedy and compensation, I could claim 300 million lien against a party myself should I want but if I never get my damages and am ignored and thrown out of court my lien means nothing but wasted breath and efforts.
anticultist said this on September 3, 2010 at 9:58 pm

Hey Anticultist... excellent reply... Yes, of course, that is correct. The interesting factor is not that the fellow has access to 38 million cash, but that his status as secured party allowed him this kind of response to the abuse of his rights. The lien has been awarded, but just how it turns into cash has not been resolved and may never be resolved. Excellent reply. You are cool today.
Matt S said this on September 4, 2010 at 3:59 am

The problem appears when VP/ZM faces someone who has even the basic knowledge about the economy (I am not talking about the monetary system) and processes inside it, like supply/demand balance. From my attempts to organize some discussion about it, or even economic team over there I can see that either most of the forum participants turn into "populist" future-oriented, spaceman perspective or skip the discussion. It applies to VTV and PJ as well - as a matter of fact the VP theory has more-or-less as stable foundations as the Star Trek to me so far.
I think the main problem is with Peter / Jacques admitting the simple fact that they have no idea about economy. This simple fact would open the possibilities to discuss with experts about it. Ad right now it is more like a politic party with leaders claiming to know everything. Sad a bit.
What is actually dangerous is that the RBEism is nice, populist idea and for most of the people it sounds cool, especially with the frustration of the everyday situation; therefore at some point they might get their momentum. Without any actual data or plan of action, we risk turning into another failed revolution or other kind of authoritarian rule..
Cosar said this on August 23, 2010 at 5:26 am | Reply

Cosar; I think in some ways its admirable to try to get such a conversation started but you just have to realize its futile.
In short, despite appearances, the TZM forum runs by information dispensation, from the top down. The bottom is considered a bunch of morons and dupes. When you know at least on a subconscious level that all the followers are at least stupid enough to be duped by you, then you also tend to assume that they are too stupid to otherwise think for themselves. When the standard operating procedure is to ban anybody who seriously questions or raises issues, it can be assumed by them that there are only dupes and morons there and that they can freely assume that anything that such people have to say will be stupid chit chat.
There is only one good reason to stay there and only one thing to do while over there and that is to offer the alternative to people who are worthy.
Trying to have a serious conversation with pj or etc is futile, because hes ignorant and must pretend at all times to be omniscient, and because VTV is doubly so.
prometheuspan said this on August 23, 2010 at 9:57 pm | Reply

I think it is just me and the "proving beyond any doubt" attitude. Anyway, I am focused on our Project Umbrella now (RBOSE/Atlas/RBEF merger), just discussing on ZM forum just to offer the alternatives.
On the other hand - most intelligent people who question the VP/ZM structure, organization & motives (which are damn fishy, just checked the VPDesign and their registration terms: "Content created for The Venus Project by a "volunteer" will be accepted as creative donations to The Venus Project and will become property of TVP to be used in an educational capacity as is directed by The Venus Project or its not for profit organization, Future By Design and can not be displayed in personal portfolios, resumes, websites or any other media.") will probably go elsewhere.
Cosar said this on August 24, 2010 at 6:40 am | Reply

wow, I didn't know about that deal regarding content. That is an extremely lame and also fishy agreement. It definitely doesn't go along with the "leaderless" assertion, but even worse, perhaps it gives power to some to shut down the whole project upon demand... wow, this is definitely very bad.
Matt S said this on September 12, 2010 at 3:50 am

Guys, GREATTTTTTT JOB on this, it amazes me how deep your minds can go combined to witness whats going on, and differentiate what's an illusion and propaganda with these situations and organized groups.
The RSVP Network said this on August 26, 2010 at 7:21 am | Reply

He doesn't have scientific background? Ok, then tell me Dr Paul, is being a DJ your scientific background?
Anonymous said this on August 28, 2010 at 1:13 am | Reply

My scientific qualifications and skills are electronic engineering, mechanical engineering, aircraft weapons systems, audio engineering, acoustics, programming and a few other things.
anticultist said this on August 28, 2010 at 2:49 pm | Reply

Very similar to my own background.. swap physics for mechanical engineering, dump the weapons and replace it with something like automation/instrumentation...
Matt S said this on September 4, 2010 at 6:11 am

"Tin foil hat? "
yeah. And thats putting it politely.
"Jumping to status of "secured party" saved me $17000. Someone else I know has a 38 million dollar lean against the straw-man identities of two policemen who tried to abridge his rights."
Its neat that there are some positive outcomes. Jesus christ wacko
is by and large not something to get involved in.
"Tin foil hat? Look, I agree that you are intelligent, but don't be so proud of yourself as to believe that there is nothing of significance of which you are ignorant. "
The reverse is true. Being a multi expert I am quite aware of how
knowledge works and the enormous holes that do exist in my knowledge in some subjects.
Cult psychology is not one of those holes, and the guardians of the free republic are little more than a jesus cult with high ideals to turn the USA into a Jesustopia.
"The universe is way too big for that. Brains are fabulous, but they are also so damned puny that you just can't fit much in there. These people are way past you regarding legal issues."
No, they are slightly ahead of the RBE crowd. On that front. Aside from that, they are a bunch of lunatic jesus nuts.
"There is little doubt that you would fall flat on your face just trying to understand their language. "
I'm just going to point out here that I have read cover to cover
dozens of dictionaries and that until about the age of 14 my form of social immaturity was to always use words nobody else knew the meaning of.
"These people know shit you can't believe. "
More importantly, i know they believe shit...
"Tin foil hat? No, you are just living in OZ. That's the real deal."
No, I'm the one facing reality and they are the ones using
jesus as a teddy bear.
"You don't understand legal reality at all apparently."
I understand it fine, in fact i always win in court.
"Here you stand in resistance to the money system, apparently totally unaware of one of its greatest weaknesses."
Truth in the hands of crackpots does not impress me. Just because they have some good ideas does not mean that their crackpotted ones don't make it all moot.
"You need to get a clue. That's all there is to this deal."
No, You need to get a clue, I'm all clued up.
prometheuspan said this on September 3, 2010 at 10:44 pm | Reply

Hey, that was a decent response as well.
Your point that many of them are quite religious is well taken. However, I happen to personally know quite a few of them, and in so doing, I happen to know that they are definitely not all "jesus nuts". Maybe half of them are. The problem you are describing here is a general problem of this country, not a problem that is specific to the guardians of the free republics. Generally speaking, legal experts are not also science experts, so we will have to accept that legal experts will typically have about the same religious behavior as the general public and somehow deal with that. In any case, no matter how you slice it, most voters in the United States are religious. You can attack christianity if you like, but its not the same battle as attempting to build an RBE, or attempting to hang limits onto the federal government. I have spent most of my life amongst religious people and have learned to just live with it. I just redefine the word "God" to my liking and talk with them with very limited difficulty. Einstein believed in God, but not the kind of God Christians believe in. Thats how I feel about it, and all I have to do to slide easily with religious folk is say that for me, God is the principles of intelligence, harmony, and such operating in the universe. That works fine and allows me to function well with them. I battle about religious issues with them when I have to, or when there is something to gain by it.
If you refuse to work with people who don't see things just like yourself, you'll never get anywhere far because you just won't find enough people as well informed as you to accomplish much.
Now regarding the cult psychology issue... its true that there is a certain flavor of that trying to happen amongst this group, but at the same time, many of the group members are aware of this potential, and are resisting the decay into a cult group.
And lastly, if they succeed at re-implementing the constitution, your vote will be just as good as theirs, so you won't be any worse off in that respect than you are now. Things will just be better because the fed will have proper limits.
Matt
Matt S said this on September 4, 2010 at 6:08 am | Reply

matt; I do not refuse to work with people who are religious and in fact i am actively involved in working out how to build some bridges and I am even today taking heat for generating a religious exploration set of forums on RBEF along with the other expansions of their forums.
I can blend in with the Christians if i want to and sometimes i do.
This is not an option with this group. Their stated goals are christi-fascistic. Period. As much as i may agree with some portion of what they are saying, It is simply not sane to give them any time or energy because of their stated intentions and goals.
You can push it out of your mind and confess openly your own version of doublethink all you like. I too translate "god" and etc
religious language in order to keep friends I would otherwise loose. But I don't join or promote their organizations and I don't kid myself that such organizations can ever make a positive difference.
There are lots of people and social movements out there with awesome ideas. The core point of this blog and moral of the TVP story is it only takes 5 evil ideas to make 1001 brilliant ideas moot and pointless- a contamination rate of only 5 bad axioms ruins and spoils 1001 true axioms.
period. End of story. That is true of TVP, true of the technocrats, true of the guardians, true of etc etc etc.
To put it in blunt terms, no matter how good the cake is, no matte rhow healthy, no matter how new age, no matter how good and wholesome, if we frost it with cow shit, nobodies eating.
And those that do eat are seriously mentally ill and likely to become seriously physically ill.
prometheuspan said this on September 5, 2010 at 12:25 am | Reply

Hehe... In a proof system, it only takes one bad axiom to ruin the entire or at least most of the system... Neural networks, however, don't have this problem. Part of the robustness of neural computing is that computing is actually non-local. One erroneous or even several erroneous weights in the system do not destroy its behavior significantly. Furthermore, such networks tend to be designed so as to correct for errors as time goes on. The key element in the success of neural computing is probably feedback. If those people realized that some of their less significant goals were getting in the way of some of their more significant goals, they might adjust somewhat, but the issue depends on appropriate feedback routes.
It turns out that feedback algorithms in neural computing conditions also, in a way, operate non-locally... naturally they must. In order to manage non-local computing, non-local tuning must be employed. When we separate ourselves into groups that don't communicate, we rob ourselves of a fundamental requirement of successful neural intelligence algorithm. We kill the feedback tuning loop that way.
The only way for such tuning to be accomplished is for connections amongst the neurons to be exercised.
One of the key elements of memetics is that of evolution of the various systems. Proper evolution requires information flow. People need to discuss between groups, and define their differences, and adjust accordingly.
But even more importantly, I'm confident that if there are disastrous problems with their movement, they will tend to be broken out of their thinking over time.
Spherical modular social structure accomodates all of these various issues. For example... in a spherical modular structure.. the definition for "the guardians of the free republics" would be loose, such that each group would vary slightly or significantly from the others, allowing a selection pressure to operate on the groups and drive them towards stronger positions. Specific complaints would be known as a matter of standard not to apply to every group faction.
I agree that some of their ideas in general are nonsense. At the same time, I have no choice but also to agree that they have some things right. I have to support the things I believe are right.. and in whatever way possible, combat the things I don't believe are right.
But the key issue here is:
In the U.S. we have three options politically...
1:Stick with the same shit.
2:Go back to the constitution.
3:Try to build something entirely new.
I can't support #1 and the guardians are covering #2, and know how to do it. The only other option is #3... there are problems with that one.
Problems:
#1 An extremely experimental form of politics will also naturally be extremely risky. Slow evolution is probably the proper way instead.
#2 The public is certain to resist completely novel ideas that they know nothing about.
Matt S said this on September 11, 2010 at 12:01 am | Reply

Are you guys familiar with neural computing? The features of neural computing are extremely important for social structure. Prometheuspans's one bad apple spoils the whole barrel stance suggests that he may not be. I just want to know if this is something I need to do some talking about.
Matt
Matt S said this on September 12, 2010 at 3:55 am | Reply

"Are you guys familiar with neural computing?"
yes, fascinating how dead cells actually add to the computational matrix and all... in any case, your point it off both because i am quite familiar with it and its paradoxes and because your metaphor is week.
prometheuspan said this on September 14, 2010 at 5:49 am | Reply

Hmmm... so why would you think that comparing society to neural computing would be a weak metaphor? It seems to me that the only to come to your conclusion is to have been focussed on neural computing in concrete biological terms rather than in more abstract AI terms. In any case, you didn't explain yourself very well, so I don't know what I am shooting at. The key issue here is that the parallelism and nonlocalism inherent in neural computing drastically reduces the need to have huge numbers of people who agree on an accurate view of reality. Societal data flow and processing is obviously parallel and non-local. In fact, there are some serious problem with the idea of getting all of the information correct in one place and then amplifying the "solution" to the whole world. 1: This is basically another pyramid scheme. 2: There is more problem than any small group can comprehend. 3: reality very strongly resists the concept of perfect amplifiers.. especially a:on a very large scale b:with serious information degradation and comprehension problems
The whole idea of locally coming up with a solution to everyones problems is exactly what people have been trying to do and what has failed. Neural nets show that non-local computing can be highly effective, and the development of open systems concurs. Trying to be enough super-genius to solve everyones problems is a mistake. The proper solution is much more simple than that. Wolfram fabulously demonstrated that complex calculations can be done with systems that use only simple rules .. as a general case... and not even just for neural networks. The solution is not to be a super hero and know everything, but to provide society with tools that help them to agglomerate and globalize their collective intelligence. Neural networks in nature do this. Single neurons are stupid (the simple rule motif) but entire brains are not. Inspire society to agglomerate in the form of a reasonable intelligence architecture, and you won't have to solve their problems, they will solve them themselves.
Matt
Matt S said this on September 16, 2010 at 3:55 am | Reply

"I can't support #1 and the guardians are covering #2, and know how to do it. "
No, they don't, they don't know how to do it, and they aren't interested in it, in fact you are duped, they have no interest in the constitution and every interest in christian fascism.
I like the idea of going back to more original constitution fine.
But lets not be dupes for a scam thats just using that idea as a hook.
"The only other option is #3... there are problems with that one.
Problems:
#1 An extremely experiment"
I don't at this moment find that this conversation is really worth answering. Its like you ramble on. You don't know what you are talking about. Your three possibilities are only three out of many other possibilities. Your ideas about causality are simply wrong.
You have no business trying to tell anybody how things are or should work and no clue how to approach really working any real world problem.
Entertaining this conversation with you is thus pointless.
prometheuspan said this on September 14, 2010 at 5:53 am | Reply

People naturally disagree. I don't know where you get the religious fascism idea. I would be interested in knowing. I haven't gotten that impression from them at all. In fact, just to check on your idea, I spent 30 minutes discussing it with someone who has been involved with the movement since the beginning on both local and global scales. Her assertion is that your assertion as to their religious extremism is iconically false even though they are generally religious people. In fact, she asserts that in all of her experience with the movement, the only religious values that have been consistently promoted is the return to God or creator given rights given in the constitution. She even said that the idea of claiming it is a christian nation was brought up and struck down, meaning that there is not even a unified notion of what the creator is, meaning that for example, that pantheism is just as valid of a view as any. And I'm sorry, but given the choice of believing your assertion vs her lengthy, intimate experience with the movement, I have to disregard your opinion as being somehow distorted. I don't know how you came to such distortions. I have seen their grand jury oath, and it refers exclusively to items regarding the constitution. Its the only document that I am aware of that can reasonably be trusted to convey the genuine intent of the organization because its the only document that you can promise yourself that they all agree on.
Furthermore, my experience with the guardians is that they are very interested in the concept of a resource based economy because they hate the current economic system. So from my point of view, you are flippantly discarding valuable allies.
What irritates me though is that rather than explain your personal views well enough to see where you are coming from, all you want to do is to hurl insults and attempt to run over me as if my opinions are inconsequential. I guess all we need to do to fix the world is insult each other and refuse to teach each other anything. And yet upon specific investigation, it turns out that it is almost certainly your opinion that is fouled rather than mine in this case.
Look, I have respect for people who have studied because I have done that myself, and I know that it can expand ones mind. However, I am starting to think that beyond being studied, it's possible that you don't personally have the proper charactistics for development collective intelligence. The first thing about collective intelligence is that it is collective. The second thing is that positive structures can not be built with negative behaviors. Yet all I see from you is negative behavior and conceipt that isn't even properly justified. I'm hoping that under circumstances, your behavior is more respective of your goals.
Matt S said this on September 16, 2010 at 6:09 am | Reply

"And I'm sorry, but given the choice of believing your assertion vs her lengthy, intimate experience with the movement, I have to disregard your opinion as being somehow distorted. "
Given that i studied cults and cult psychology, you;d think maybe
you'd consider things the other way but this is not that important to me. You have your mind set so go be a fool and a dupe.
Its not really something that concerns me.
they are transparently a fascist christian cult, period. If you can't see that then you need to start reading their materials more closely with a mind thats got more in it than the dippy bs you present here. Which is probably impossible. Which is to say i understand why they are opaque to you. You are a blithering idiot
with no clue about anything.
You want to come in here and play like you you stuff you don't
play like you have perspective you don't, and play like your mere opinion in ignorance is meaningful when it isn't.
I'm not interested in your opinion and i don't put forth mine.
I put forth the facts in reality, which i am qualified to know.
prometheuspan said this on September 17, 2010 at 12:01 am | Reply

"What irritates me though is that rather than explain your personal views well enough to see where you are coming from,"
I don't owe you anything, and this discussion is about the tvp cult not some other cult.
You are off topic and you don't have any claim to sense.
"all you want to do is to hurl insults and attempt to run over me as if my opinions are inconsequential. "
Yes. Thats right. Your opinions are inconsequential. As soon as you have something more than a mere opinion to share, it might be different, but then you won't bring in ludicrous BS any more so we won't be in this cycle together.
"I guess all we need to do to fix the world is insult each other and refuse to teach each other anything. And yet upon specific investigation, it turns out that it is almost certainly your opinion that is fouled rather than mine in this case."
whatever.
you had your mind made up in the matter before you brought up this laughable cult and i was never going to change it. If you think i am dumb enough to waste my time shoveling at the black hole of your intentional self deluding ignorance, then you are simply making an assumption that i will give you my time and energy when there is no cause to make that assumption.
prometheuspan said this on September 17, 2010 at 12:05 am | Reply

" I'm hoping that under circumstances, your behavior is more respective of your goals."
Yes, i just uploaded a hundred or so images to RBEF
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=520&t=2561
Those images are with only two or three exceptions generated by me using autocad and sketchup.
I really don't have time for all the bs, I'm the one doing the work.
prometheuspan said this on September 17, 2010 at 12:08 am | Reply

Well, I'm not an architect, so I can't assess your drawings. Actually more to the point, I'm not personally interested in them even though I realize some people may be. For me, social structure is the primary issue. Architect work is fine, but it seems like a side track, unless there is a specific plan on the horizon. Frankly, I think RBEF should alot a special collaboration domain for those who wish to develop architecture. But I suppose they may yet be to small for that.
Matt S said this on September 17, 2010 at 10:13 pm | Reply

oh no, they aren't christian fundies. really. truly. Rule under them would be just like going back to the consitution. (Er. With the christian version of sharia law, but never mind that.)
I will not trade one capitalist dystopia for a christian fascist dystopia; I'm simply not that stupid.
The details of their plan are interesting, but just like with TVP the problem is that they are nutjob whackos, aside from the good ideas.
----------
"Apply to become one of the Guardians of the Free Republics and juror on the De jure Grand Jury.
By entering your private information, you are requesting in the presence of the Creator
to be considered as a guardian member of the Guardians of the Free Republics and a juror
on the De jure Grand Jury of your respective republic. Only courageous people of high spiritual
intention who are willing to stand when called upon, who are drawn to this calling,
with forgiveness in their hearts, should apply.
You will also be registering simultaneously as a member of the sovereign People
on the land of your respective republic."
http://www.guardiansofthefreerepublics.com/front-page.html
prometheuspan said this on September 17, 2010 at 12:17 am | Reply

First of all, its on topic because part of building a success is collecting allies. Do-it-yourselfers can't win any significant political battles.
Gosh... well, thanks for spending your precious time on little old me, cause you know... I'm just human and you are a Demi-god. In fact, I should probably name you pharoah and start worshipping you. Yeah, I have seen that page. I'm really surprised that you interpret that as negatively as you apparently do. You know, I wish you would come up with something significant so that I could side with you with some kind of feeling of certainty, but to me this just looks like you are allergic to any/all religious rhetoric without consideration of the genuine intent behind the rhetoric. And I'll admit right away that if you have a major allergy of this kind, you could have trouble getting along with these people because they are not afraid to use the word "God" or "Creator". Nevertheless, I have it on good report as well as personal experience that religious values other than "inalienable human rights" are not generally promoted during their meetings.
Now your claim to being mr. fact, not opinion sounds to me about as good as some religious claims to having seen [their version of] God.
In any case, most americans are religious in some sense, so I don't see this as a surprise. The real question shouldn't be whether they use words you don't like, but do they intend things that you don't like? Frankly, I don't see any bad intentions here. First of all, they are being rather flexible by using the word "Creator" in order to accomodate people of differing directions. After discussing with many of them, it has become clear to me that the Genetic algorithm as a version of a creator is perfectly acceptable. The core issue to them is that the creator is not some government, and that human rights are more fundamental than government.
High spiritual intention just means stuff like freedom, love, harmony, responsibility, charity, etc. And frankly, without some of this kind of values, I don't see how you are ever going to get anywhere far. I don't see what's wrong with forgiveness excepting the possibility that one must first assume some form of guilt [which is inherent in the notion of law]. But in any case, it wouldn't be the forgiveness that would be a problem.
Coming down to brass tacks, the only issues I can imagine being a serious problem for non-religious would be that this group probably wouldn't favor issues like gay marriage. They might not want to legalize Marijuana. They might most of them be pro-lifers. They are fundamentalists.. what other sort of people would be trying to re-install the constitution? But the whole idea of the constitution is to put limits on government power. That means that if a bunch of liberals come in and vote for gay marriage and win, then their own constitution says that they win, and they are bound by its limits. When it comes right down to it, most of their core values are unlikely to differ far from what I have seen yours to be. There is not even a unified notion amongst them of what "God" is. Maybe I'll discover otherwise somewhere down the line, but My sensation about them being a "fascist cult" is that you are paranoid. However, I am also getting the sensation that your opinion on that issue is not likely to change, so I am going to drop that topic out of realization that it's probably just wasted time because except for your understanding of government in common with them, you are basically a hard core liberal. The only last words I have is that if you can't work with any one who doesn't see things just like you, then you basically can't work with anyone.
Matt S said this on September 17, 2010 at 9:15 pm | Reply

"you are basically a hard core liberal. "
No. I'm so outside of that false dualism mental cage that any pondering inside of it from my perspective is like ants bickering
over a chess board thats scaled for them to play.
It seems i get to do this twice today, and i don't even need to bother to more than cut and paste.
prometheuspan said this on September 18, 2010 at 1:09 am | Reply

I'm continuing here instead of past the crux point.
Here are some more facts to consider.
1. I am in expert in every major subject relevant to being a moderator.
2. I am an aspie, so that can happen in the first place.
3. As an aspie i am actually brain wired outside of the pack psychology box- ie; ego tripping and manipulative control and all that is
A GAME I UNIQUELY LIVE OUTSIDE OF.
4. I am thus uniqely empowered in multiple ways to be not only a good moderator, but the best moderator ever.
5. Much of the work I have done is in fact exemplary. Go read it again.
6. Dealing with an abusive person is not only about being nice to them; it is about creating the path to self empowerment that changes their behavior.
7. For particularly nasty people this may require me to look momentarily as nasty or much nastier than they are.
8. Watch me grow horns or a halo AT MY CHOICE.
9. Notice THEY CAN'T (easily) STOP OR CHANGE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.
10. Most humans by virtue of personality and personal choices are tidally locked as being nasty or nice people.
DM, COSAR, Venux, are +++ Extra NICE.
11. I'm the junkyard dog and dragon that they earned, the perfect compliment and reward for that;
somebody who lives where they do INSIDE OF NICE...
12. But somebody who also truly grasps and can emulate and play against "Mean."
13. DM, Cosar, and Venux ARE TOO NICE to allow people to mess up their space with crap. That. won't. be. tolerated.
14. With due love and respect to everyone, RBEF will be a civil and polite work space.
Re: Metaprocess Discussion
1. I have admin powers.
2. This isn't going to change.
3. While they may feel its an imperfect and sloppy first run, the Councilors are behind me on this.
4. I am NOT an ego maniac- far from it.
5. In proof; these are SERVICES I RENDER TO YOU; THE PUBLIC.
6. So, YOUTHEPUBLIC sez that the job is imperfect.
7. YAY!! i have an opportunity to learn
8. Please tell me ; exactly; how you would like to have your services rendered in the future
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=633&t=1996&p=16492#p16492
You want to be a GOFR dupe... go right ahead. Don't come crying and saying i didn't try to warn ya.
prometheuspan said this on September 18, 2010 at 1:12 am | Reply

Well, if you are not an egomaniac, (and I'll take your word for that for now even though you have chosen the names of demigods for your identifier here.. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt) then you must simply be extremely opinionated. Studies show that group intelligence consistently outperforms even the best experts. To me, you appear to be overconfident at bare minimum. Furthermore, some elements of extremism appear to be brooding on this blog. Examples of extremism fostering factors that hit home on this blog as described by Surowiecki:
1: a predefined framework for discussion
2: the discussion is dominated by people of similar opinions
3: your and anticultists attempts at achieving dominance
4: Group members with rigid and convinced stances
5: it is a small group
Almost every factor that Surowiecki lists as contributors to group extremism is here on this blog. So you should be aware that you have inherently set up a potential whirlpool of extremism. The only thing you can do to properly respond to this issue is to soften your rigid opinionated behavior and allow gracefully for others to have some meaningful variance of opinion. Not every important piece of information is available from your viewpoint, and value systems can be just as significant of an input into opinions as fact.
So, regarding GOFR... As I said in an earlier post... GOFR is not a primary concern for me. I feel loosely connected to them, but probably see myself more as a consultant, to help them see a bigger picture (at least in this state).
The real reason I brought up GOFR was not even to convince you of it, but to test your behavior towards potentially new material, so that I could get a notion, just how difficult it might be to interact with you and convey some ideas. What I have learned so far is that you can be difficult to interact with... but I have also learned that your favorite topic of contribution appears to be architecture rather than social structure. But additionally, I have learned that you have little tolerance for people of different opinions. This attribute of yours does not mix well with spherical modular social structure unless you simply operate inside of a particular module, and not as any kind of Liaison between modules. Of course, everyone can find themselves their proper place given time and freedom.
The world is now facing the biggest beast ever created. I disagree with your apparent attitude of divisiveness. We can not afford to divide ourselves when struggling against this kind of monster. That thing is just too damned big and bad. Every social student knows that it is imperative to build on common grounds, rather than to divide up based on differences. This is a fundamental strategy of unity, far more fundamental than clever structures like pyramids or markets or modular spheres or RBE. Now I may not have 20 degrees, but I probably have the equivalent of around 8. And that's plenty to be competent in the discussion of focussed topics, so you can't intimidate me. And neither can your friend, or the both of you together for that matter.
Modern math shows that complex structures and intelligence architectures arise from simple rules just as easily as from complex rules. This is why, for example, given the proper circumstances, markets can outperform pyramids.
And regarding comparisons of social structure to neural network structure... First of all, choose any two things, they can be both compared and contrasted. Comparing them is an act of abstraction while contrasting them is an act of concretization. Modern physics has demonstrated that abstraction is a very important key to unlocking the universe. So I tend to compare rather than contrast.
On an abstract level, all neurons do is receive a fan-in of signals from peer neurons, process the signals, and output a fan-out to peer neurons. People do the very same thing. Money itself is an example of a kind of signal that fans through the collective. Its the neural nature of the monetary system including inherent feedback mechanisms, that gives it the character of a non-local neural computing system. Therefore giving it enough intelligence to do the Job even though it is made of the simple rule: buy when you want to, don't buy when you don't want to or can't. RBE can be nothing other than an attempt to replace one intelligence architecture with another. For me, RBE is more intriguing than building architecture. But less intriguing than social architecture even though RBE is really a social architecture. One thing I am convinced of regarding RBE is that the proper solution is actually a simple one rather than a complex one. And the reason for this is that math and the universe both show that simple rules can do complicated stuff just as well as complicated rules. The other thing I am convinced of is that a proper RBE functions non-locally.
Now on the other hand, there will never be an RBE if grass roots can't get it together and root out the current mess. And the fundamental recipe for that is wide-scale understanding and use of the best known principles of social structure. The whole damned thing really depends on social structure, which is highly dependent on information flow structure. That's how I see it, and I am strongly convinced that this is the most important place to spend efforts.
I'm not against your architecture work... I think its fabulous and would not take the stance of TZM in dampening anyones efforts to achieve something. This is in fact a prime example of the oppressive dampening effects of pyramid architecture. Rather it would be my goal to help those types of people to connect and interact with each other in a standardized fashion that is cognizant of known functional features of intelligence architecture. Furthermore, in creating a spherical grass-roots social architecture, I believe the foundation is laid for a potential non-local RBE.
Matt
Matt S said this on October 3, 2010 at 2:43 am | Reply

[...] The science that is missing and completely wrong in the venus project [...]
Zeitgeist Blogs: Zeitgeist is a Mind Heist « Zeitgeist Movement Exposed said this on November 10, 2010 at 9:11 pm | Reply

extensive blog you corner
baidu678 said this on September 8, 2011 at 11:07 am | Reply

OWS is besiged by TZMers ... help..
http://occupywallst.org/forum/resource-based-economy-sub-forum/#comment-189541
prometheuspan said this on October 24, 2011 at 12:15 am | Reply

The reason this is so is because this is what Zeitards do...They find somewhere that allows them to post their shite and they swarm on it like a bunch of shit beetles looking for more turd to roll in.
Simple fix is to ban any zeitards and censor their cult garbage, that is what they do to people who have normal questions on their own forums. In fact they have closed them down now as they were such a blatant embarassment to the cult leader.
anticultist said this on October 24, 2011 at 8:02 am | Reply

@Joseph Matthews
fuck off
Seriously though you add nothing here, you're a dimwit with no scientific background who likes to ponce around like a gatekeeper for a psuedo intellectual conspiracy theorist cult.
Congratulations you have achieved zero in this thread and have wasted your time.
If you only would realise how boring you are and how little you give anyone reading your mundane rants, you provide nothing of substance and cant even defend your cults lack of science. Instead you babble on like a whiny bitch as if you were on your cults forum, you're an embarassment.
anticultist said this on July 17, 2010 at 4:30 am | Reply

Frankly, it is your demeanor which also makes me wonder about you. Other than that , I find you quite interesting. It is the interesting part that has me patiently waiting to see if we can strike a chord.
Matt S said this on July 17, 2010 at 5:25 am | Reply

My demeanour is simply the behaviour of a person who has dealt with this person for over a year and have seen nothing from him but the previous.
I have dealt with people like this guy for too long [including other members of their culty forum], whilst you may have the patience of a saint and can tolerate fools gladly, i see no reason for politeness when its wasted on fools such as him.
anticultist said this on July 17, 2010 at 5:31 am | Reply

Well it grates a little on me to watch you treat people aggressively. Usually there are polite ways of rejecting people that are also quite effective. Furthermore, your misbehavior gives him more ammunition.
Matt S said this on July 19, 2010 at 9:48 pm | Reply

I have to be honest I am not here to please you.
If how i treat him is not to your liking you could simply ignore it, but theres nothing to worry about hes no longer allowed to post here. He never brings anything in all the time he has been here. Also I need to add this you havent had to deal with the the things I have with him and others from his group.
When I started this blog up I was aware I would be targeted by them, and I have had to endure endless abuse from them, a lot of which you will never read on this blog because I have not allowed it to be posted, but lets say its been enough to make me have little respect for their membership. I initially started with the intention of it being polite and not attacking them outright, just posting matters they did not want people to discuss on their forum, but its ended up they have antagonised me enough to not worry about their opinion anymore.
anticultist said this on July 20, 2010 at 1:17 am | Reply

Look, I don't want to judge you, I'm just expressing myself. You can respond as you like, but if you won't let him post, then perhaps there is no point in worrying about anything regarding him for now. Now, not being interested in pleasing people that's a slightly different, but related issue. Personally, I don't assume that I'm some kind of an island that doesn't need the good will of others, and you are mistaken if you see yourself that way, and the success of your efforts will have to wait until you do care about how you impact others. The really successful open source people have genuine social prowess. They accomplish things by making collaboration with them into a rewarding experience. They are people that other people want to be around. Just read Torvalds "the cathedral and the bazaar" http://catb.org/esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/index.html#catbmain Torvalds turned Linux into something by virtue of social genius as well as by having a vision. Yeah, I remember the days when I thought that pedagogic abilities were all that mattered... I turned from that path long ago and invested myself in other directions. Well, everyone has to choose his own path. Sometimes we need people who do nothing but math, but frankly, I'm confident I could accomplish what I intend with a group of programmers less well studied than yourself. Nevertheless, I would be pleased at the opportunity to absorb some of what you have uncovered, and to see what can be accomplished.
That's interesting, what you say about their behavior towards you. So far, I have yet to experience that kind of behavior from them, but I suppose that is of limited meaning. Anyways, as stated earlier, I am not interested in their forums. I will be looking to assemble a team of programmers by searching amongst their people... or elsewhere if need be.
Matt S said this on July 31, 2010 at 2:18 am | Reply

Each to their own, for now I will keep as tight a blog as I can from pitch invasions by zeitgeisters
anticultist said this on July 31, 2010 at 11:04 am | Reply

not easy eh
The RSVP Network said this on August 18, 2010 at 12:25 pm | Reply

No it can be a nuisance as it requires me to monitor their posts every day, and some of which pretend to be fence sitters like Nate D, then later on down the line after a few posts you realise theyre complete fanboys of Jacque Fresco and Peter Merola. Their only reason for posting here it turns out is to argue on behalf of them.
anticultist said this on August 18, 2010 at 12:42 pm | Reply

Peter,VTV,Thunder et only do the "alternative" and underground radio and not at places where people actually know what they are talking about since as prometheuspan said they cant deal with interrogation and debate and prefer those with their own biases.Now I know I said Id ring in and quash their nonsense earlier on if they did do a show but I dont pay too much attention to the TZM forums(even though Ed Winston and the others at Conspiracy Science said they would never make an attempt at mainstream)but as I suspected a couple of anti-capitalist yahoos went on air and made asses of themselves.Personally I havent or do intend to watch it as its probably to cringe worthy to sit through but here it is a couple of naive Zeitgeisters one of my countries most prominant political programmes(Finnancial Frontline) talking about....you guessed it THE FED & MODERN MONEY MECHANICS!! Lol


P.S. Please tell me they embarass themselves and the presenters talk down to them a bit I really dont want to watch it I fell ashamed simply by the fact they went on it at all.
Shane Nolan said this on August 18, 2010 at 9:00 pm | Reply

And here is part 3:


Shane Nolan said this on August 18, 2010 at 9:06 pm | Reply

I already watched these videos a while back when they went online and its all funny stuff. They are just two guys from Ireland and theyre given so much respect by the presenters, calling them intelligent and clever etc.. It is almost like the presenters have no idea what the subject matter is and therefore are unable to even discuss the materials so they just let these two guys say what they want on air without ever questioning them thoroughly about it.
Yes it is just a show advertising TZM and the federal reserve viewpoint that they hold.
anticultist said this on August 18, 2010 at 9:27 pm | Reply




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I can't stop posting pictures of poop, what the fuck is wrong with me?

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The psychological profile of a conspiracy theorist April.21.2010 36 54

http://web.archive.org/web/20110321142658/http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/04/21/the-psychological-profile-of-a-conspiracy-theorist/
2 part

A high percentage of the zeitgeist movements followers are conspiracy theorists drawn towards the movement through Peter's deceptive movies. His first two films attribute many facets of societies problems into externalised grand claims, such as the worlds problems are caused by a rigged financial system controlled by the federal bankers whose aim is to ruin the lives of people. This is apparently achieved by manipulation of companies, stocks, inflation/deflation, market biasing and other such matters beyond the scope of my willingness to research.
Likewise the claims that 911 was an inside job by both sides of the fence, the Muslims blaming Israel and usa to incite anti-Muslim emotions, the western world believing it was the corporatocracy trying to manipulate world events to gain monetary control and resource control for their own greed and selfish reasons. Then we move into the religious aspect where all the worlds' problems are blamed on the world's religions, and an attempt to disprove their factuality is carried out through manipulative use of vague unconnected 'facts'.

In short these are your typical conspiracy theorists wet dreams, they are an externalisation of a great enemy so large as to affect everyone's lives and setting them as almost untouchable to the everyday man, providing a level of ambiguity of who is exactly to blame, a level of impotency of action against 'them', all personal failings are attributed to an externalized problem so responsibility through personal decision making and choices is avoided, and finally a level of action becomes futile even if planned and attempted.
This can be seen in the zeitgeist movement where they blame the monetary system for the worlds problems, the world religions for problems, any charitable action is deemed ineffective and useless, and the solution is neatly provided for the member all nicely packaged. None of the problems are the individuals, rather it is others who are the problem and it is larger entities that are to blame for the individual's situation.

Solutions in conspiracy theories usually come in the form of being handed the answers of who is to blame prior to the solutions.
For example in the zeitgeist movement after knowing who to blame the solutions are to boycott religious institutes, boycott banking institutes, boycott corporate ties, relinquish the monetary system completely, and then turn everything over to a new system devoid of any responsibility for the participants. All the solutions for lifes problems are solved and everyone is happy because they automatically get what they need and want for free and with little effort.

This 'us and them' mentality is prevalent in conspiracy theorists mind-sets, ordinarily the conspiracy theorist is more prone to distrust and have a disenfranchised mind-set towards general society.

There are a few classifications of conspiracy theories:

Obstructive conspiracies:
A conspiracy whose purpose is to prevent, or at least impede, some event from occurring.

Oppressive conspiracies:
Purport to explain perceived social inequalities or perceived political disenfranchisement.

Deceptive conspiracies:
Dedicated to presenting the illusion that the root cause of some social, economic, or political problem is something other than actual cause.

All three of the above are present in Peter Joseph's movies; this is not unique to only his movies and a brief watch of many other conspiracists like Alex Jones and David Icke whose conspiracies are more extreme and obvious will show exact traits. A conspiracy theory need not always be obvious, often they take the form of a mistrustful statement against an individual that may or may not be based in fact, but attribute a level of power of the 'master' over the 'slaves'. For example a mistrust of the government official, or the local police force or something along those lines. This simple matter can then escalate into fully blown conspiracies as the rumour increases in popularity and numbers discussing it.

In recent years conspiracy theories have become popularised in mainstream television programmes and in news events, quite often when something large happens it is instantly blamed on something large, For instance the recent Haiti earthquakes were blamed on an unknown technology the governments were using HAARP, the recent airplane crash of the Polish parliament was blamed on Electro Magnetic Pulse weapons, the recent volcano in Iceland is some mysterious government experiment, Lady Diana's car crash was not just a simple accident. This has created an increase in populations having mistrust and irrational beliefs.

The larger the impact of the event the more bizarre and extreme the conspiracy theories become, it is a uniqueness of the conspiracy theorists mindset to avoid accepting the mundane answer and take on a preference for the unlikeliest of answers.

This all feeds rather neatly into the zeitgeist movement because having the ability to blame a huge system like the monetary society we live in and a few elitist fat controllers, allows the movement to avoid their own failings to incorporate into this society as well as allows them to rationalise an untested solution that is of itself a pre made solution handed to them.

[Goertzel, Ted (1994): Belief in Conspiracy Theories, Political Psychology 15: 733-744] States that belief in conspiracy theories is correlated with




anomia, the respondent stated a belief that he/she felt alienated or disaffection relative to "the system;"

a tendency to distrust other people; and

a feeling of insecurity regarding continued employment.

These above characteristics again fit neatly into the zeitgeist movements membership and administration, and it can be seen clearly that the attraction to their movement is actually hinged upon the concepts above being the factors to blame for societies problems. Another interesting point to note is that these conditions are claimed to not be solely fixed in any particular gender, age, sex preference or nationality, which adds to the reason of the potential popularity of the movement. Though it is claimed that all minorities [race/sexual preference etc..] are more prone to the anomia characteristics because of inherent experience with oppression and phobias leading to mistrust, lack of social standing from lack of employment security.

So you want explanations why the movement is as it is, the above gives a rational explanation.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/conspiracy_files/6354139.stm

http://www.world-mysteries.com/newgw/gw_rmd1.htm

http://crab.rutgers.edu/~goertzel/conspire.doc

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Anticultist blog comments




Wow. With no due respect, fuck you. You just lumped millions of people into one category, called them all crazy, and then acted like they were all debunked without bringing up one fact about any of the conspiracies, not even a strawman. The Zeitgeist Movement has purposefully separated itself from both documentaries and frankly, I don't care if you call me a conspiracy theorist, I have proof to back up every conspiracy I believe. Even if the movement was bat-shit insane conspiracy theorists, I'd still take their ideas into account and I would probably still be in the movement, they see the problem and are working to fix it. What are you doing? Making a blog on the internet and trying to get revenge on TZM and TVP.
Gavin said this on April 21, 2010 at 2:43 am | Reply

Don't get so mad Gavin, believing in crazy theories is normal these days, people who dont believe them are starting to become the minority.
The Zeitgeist Movement has purposefully separated itself from both documentaries
Peter Joseph stated his conspiracy theory movie Z1 is his best recruiting tool for the movement Gavin, he said this publicly.
anticultist said this on April 21, 2010 at 3:15 am | Reply

O, and I guess 3 out of 4 people are conspiracy nuts: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/1998/11/20/opinion/main23166.shtml
Gavin said this on April 21, 2010 at 2:44 am | Reply

Yes thats right a high percentage of the US population believe there was more than one shooter and that the CIA or some other subversive group were involved in assassinating JFK, this was popularised and increased the belief with the movie JFK.
anticultist said this on April 21, 2010 at 3:17 am | Reply

Gavin,most of the Zeitgeisters are Conspiracy Theorists and those that are not are being quickly deluded into accepting the same form of logic and attitudes with regards to society,the peer review process and the rationale for their actions that CT'rs embrace.
Shane Nolan said this on April 21, 2010 at 8:32 am | Reply

"This can be seen in the zeitgeist movement where they blame the monetary system for the worlds problems, the world religions for problems, "
And where there is blame, is there a real solution? If PJs version of fascism requires us to throw all religion under the bus; even if hes technically right about them being wrong; thats still us murdering paradigms so that he can be right.
Its still just a bully pulpit; its still just him exploiting human tragedy in order to claim moral high ground.
NOT SOLVING REAL PROBLEMS.
Blaming people is ALWAYS a way to AVOID solving problems and ALWAYS a symptom of passive aggressive manipulation.
Fascism requires its Emanuel Goldsteins, its public enemies. And If you are building a zionism scam for atheists, there is no more obvious scape goat to sacrifice than all those pesky religions.
While PJ may be right about religions and christianity in general, the problem becomes that his forum becomes just another atheist troll bully pulpit; and nothing else. How can a social movement hope to change the world whose core axioms include alienating, demonizing, and enemy-ifying all of the worlds religions?
And, what does an adult and responsible non fascist approach to atheism look like, if the atheist wants to make friends with the world instead of enemies?
Say that TVP makes its billion dollars and builds an RBE. It could never spread, because who would the clients be? The clients which could have been world religions making their own happy new Zions and Meccas? You already told them off and cast them out. The clients that would have been some government? You already identified them as the enemy. That 10 million dollar grant from the USA government for sustainable green growth research? oops...
its gone!
In short, by projecting paranoid delusional fantasies and making as many enemies as possible in order to create a wave of populism, what PJ does is exactly what you'd do to damn a social movement to never make it.
The US VS THEM mentality is not any different from the christian soldiers he supposedly is against, and his version of atheism thus ends up being atheism as the troll cult against religions. The Anti Religion Religion. And he takes it seriously!
This US VS them approach leads TVP to alienate any and all groups it inspires, and it ensures absolute group think, and makes ever solving real world problems utterly impossible.
Not only do they alienate the religious, the government, and the rich, they dynamically alienate scientists. And they actively attack anyone who claims to know more than they do; even tho they are transparently ignorant.
Hello world? Thats all cult psychology. Thats all cult behaviors.
Thats not a social movement, its christianity repackaged for atheists.
Its not going to save the world if the whole point of the game is to wait till after the world gone to heck anyhow.
"any charitable action is deemed ineffective and useless, and the solution is neatly provided for the member all nicely packaged. "
With all of the irreudicible complexity just ignored and tucked under the carpet behind alleged blue prints which almost certainly can't exist, because of their paranoid delusional fantasies and their inability to get along with actual scientists.
"None of the problems are the individuals, rather it is others who are the problem and it is larger entities that are to blame for the individual's situation."
The entire ego pay off for VTV or Thunder is that they get to imagine themselves as morally superior, as socially effective, as doing good in the world, when in fact they are only social parasites and unpaid professional bullies, preying upon the gullibility of people who want positive social change.
Prometheuspan said this on April 21, 2010 at 4:26 am | Reply

TVP has such a long list of enemies. Isn't it curious? RBEF... Earth 2.0. The Promethean folks, all world religions, all world governments, anyone who steps into their forum and admits to a higher education...
Why is that?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUeYQw5OW8A


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8JeQCUvurQ&feature=related
you will always find the worst enemy in the very last place you would ever think to look.
"in religion, the ego manifests as the devil, and of course, nobody realizes how smart the ego is because it created the devil so you could blame someone else."
Deepak Chopra
"All externalized enemies are merely projections of the internal ego id conflict."
Prometheuspan said this on April 21, 2010 at 4:29 am | Reply

Ok, I'm new to this whole conflict so perhaps it's best for you to explain why you were banned or whatever, it seems to me that they think you guys are trolls and you think they are trolls. My experience is that they are willing to listen to new ideas and listen to what flaws there may be in TVP. I also don't know where you got the idea that they are so vehemently opposed to religion, they merely point out facts discovered through research and encourage people to question their religion, blind faith in something with no proof is simple stupidity, especially one as violent and barbaric as christianity.
Gavin said this on April 22, 2010 at 2:57 am | Reply

Firstly I was NEVER banned, I left of my own accord after being sick to death of their bollocks.
Prometheus can answer himself why he was banned.
blind faith in something with no proof is simple stupidity,
Thats why I want proof from Fresco about his city designs and his claims about everything he says he has done and believes. Evidence or he is no more important a person to listen to than you or me.
anticultist said this on April 22, 2010 at 1:59 pm

"And, what does an adult and responsible non fascist approach to atheism look like, if the atheist wants to make friends with the world instead of enemies?"
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=394&t=1909
Prometheuspan said this on April 21, 2010 at 4:50 am | Reply

"Wow. With no due respect, fuck you. You just lumped millions of people into one category, called them all crazy, and then acted like they were all debunked without bringing up one fact about any of the conspiracies, not even a strawman. "
No, he pointed out a simple fact of reality which is inconvenient to cults that want to be social movements.
Whether or not a conspiracy theory has merit or is true is besides the point. I for one think 911 was an inside job, that the government killed kenedy, and that fluouride in the water is one form of intentional genocide.
What table do I bring that to and how? Do I run around projecting my paranoia at everything and thus making enemies of everyone i encounter because of it? No. I stay sane by keeping things in proper boxes.
VTV banned me from the forum because hes an overcompensating paranoid delusional and ignorant troll.
I was there to help him, and he couldn't see that. WHY?
Because its a paranoia environment. Its uber cloak and dagger ified, into obscene levels of self indulgent paralysis.
By demonizing and then cowering in fear, they have managed to excuse their utter lack of right action.
The government would shut down an RBE. Don't you see? So there not point in doing anything more than collecting money for videos and waiting for doomsday with a happy face because after we can have RBES.
Thats nutty. And if you can't see that, its your problem.
"The Zeitgeist Movement has purposefully separated itself from both documentaries"
But is still so paranoid delusional that i was banned from the forum for simply stating true facts and bringing up the question of lack of metaprocess; or the simple fact that VTV was being a cruel and mean bully, an ad hominem attacker, flagrantly breaking the rules, and passively aggressively baiting Jeremy. I didn't say all that, but that and more was true.
And VTV went off like a fire cracker, because he can't allow for the possibility of being wrong, and because hes always habitually dead wrong. Hes an abusive person. Period.
" and frankly, I don't care if you call me a conspiracy theorist,"
if so, your in good company, you entirely missed the point.
Your smarter than that Gavin. Quit dabbling in cognitive dissonance.
"I have proof to back up every conspiracy I believe. Even if the movement was bat-shit insane conspiracy theorists, I'd still take their ideas into account"
And so do I. And so does anticultist.
Thats not the point.
" and I would probably still be in the movement, they see the problem and are working to fix it."
No, they don't see the problems, and no, they are not working to fix them and in fact, they are an obstruction to MY work to save humanity, and little more.
" What are you doing?"
I'm solving problems. All of them. Its too bad VTV mad TVP into another problem I have to solve. Now isn't it?
"Making a blog on the internet and trying to get revenge on TZM and TVP."
We are informing the public about an abusive agency and an abusive group of people. This is a public service and one you should appraise yourself of. You are too good to waste another day over where all they will do is let all of your good ideas float off the page.
You can't tell me that you don't see it; and, thanks for your thread pointing out that VTV was the one who attacked me via ad hominem.
Now have the integrity and the sanity to own the full implications, instead of telling me how "the mods are only human."
No, I'm only human, and I don't need to run an ego cult to pretend to save the world.
Prometheuspan said this on April 21, 2010 at 5:05 am | Reply

You know, Michael Ruppert once said a very smart thing that went something along the lines of this: "That's what happens when you tell the truth, everyone hates you" I don't see any problem with TZM or TVP nor do I see it as a cult, they have good ideas and have come up with a sustainable system that could improve the lives of all the world's people. We, as in the RBE promoters, can afford to be split up like we are now, we need to work together and collaborate to come up with a solid plan and it sounds like a lot of the people on the TZM forums want that too. Again, I can't really say where I stand until I hear you guys' side of the story about why you were banned and/or left and what you think is wrong with TVP aside from not having a transitional plan.
Gavin said this on April 22, 2010 at 3:08 am | Reply

The same goes for when we tell the truth about TZM and TVP in regards of that quote Gavin.
Most of us would not be split up and of left IF TZM and TVP were flexible and less one dimensional.
anticultist said this on April 22, 2010 at 2:00 pm

News Flash: It appears that outspoken TVP critic Codie Vickers and cult leader Peter Joseph Merola are now taking legal action against each other;
""Thunder"'s voice mail to me is being taken very seriously as a threat by the FBI. I can only hope that he uses his time in federal prison productively." - Vickers
"Please note that I have had a case file being set up for you for months."
"You will see the case against you when the sheriff comes to your house." - Merola
Full transcript here;
http://st0rage.org/~graalreborn11/Grits%20harassed%20by%20Thunder%20and%20Peter/Gmail%20-%20threats%20made%20via%20voice%20mail%20by%20%27Thunder%27%20-%20plautus@gmail.com.htm
Anathema said this on April 21, 2010 at 10:42 am | Reply

Yes I saw this and have been speaking with grits friend Billll about it in private. Its certainly interesting to see how they have created exaggerated problems for themselves, this includes Peter. He is no innocent party in all this and any attempts to portray that are false, they are creating their own monsters.
anticultist said this on April 21, 2010 at 11:27 am | Reply

I agree with anticultists but for anybody reading this wanting to know the full story I have posted a thread I had posted on the conspiracy science forum here. They do create their own monsters and I my self am proof of it as they repeatedly call me a troll among other things.
---------------------------------
As much as the majority of people here despise (or other things) Plautus I found out from this individual that Thunder had called his house and left a interesting message on his answering machine. It just didn't stop there as Plautus had contacted Peter Merola through e-mail to inform him of what happened. As it is pretty funny I find it a bit sad that individuals who have status in TZM would go out of their way to call peoples personal phone numbers and leave a message saying "Your days are numbered 7uck3r" and at that Peter would not only act rude to such an individual with a legitimate complaint about someone in TZM staff but would actually back them up. This isn't shocking to me anymore as this is typically how things are ran at in TZM.
As i will continue to improve the validity of the e-mail it's safe to say the Peter's address blacklisting RBOSE (as of April 18, 2010) because of Plautus may have corresponded with the e-mail between Plautus and Peter hence why I will release this information and continue to put up more information as necessary.
(RBOSE has been blacklisted from the zeitgeist movement as of today April 18, 2010, link below)
http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=229&id=249403#249403
Below I have audio recording stream and download of Thunders message on answering machine
http://www.zshare.net/audio/75090721be41d269/
I have a saved Gmail HTML format page of Plautus e-mail conversation with Peter Merola on a website as well as I will post the txt on this forum.
http://st0rage.org/~graalreborn11/Grits%20harassed%20by%20Thunder%20and%20Peter/Gmail%20-%20threats%20made%20via%20voice%20mail%20by%20%27Thunder%27%20-%20plautus@gmail.com.htm
saved download versions of Gmail HTML format page of Plautus e-mail conversation with Peter Merola
http://www.zshare.net/download/75105343afca222a/
Below is e-mail message between Peter Merola and Plautus txt version.
-------
START of convo
Subject: threats made via voice mail by "Thunder"
Hello, Peter. I thought it would be a good idea to bring this to your attention. My name is Codie Vickers. I'm sure you have some preconceived notions about me based on reports from your administrators. I ask you to set aside this bias when reviewing this email and its contents. Approximately forty-five (45) minutes ago I received a voice mail on my cell phone from one of your moderators, "Thunder", wherein he stated "hahaha your days are numbered, fucker". Clearly this is a threatening message. I have attached a digital copy of this message as I received it.
I appreciate you taking the time to review this email. I also urge you to consider well the choices that have been made of people to represent the movement you have started. This person "Thunder" has quite an extensive history of threatening people, and he uses his moderator status and the ability to ban people to conceal his actions and to muddy the waters, so that he is able to characterize people however he wishes. He's not the only moderator who does this, and who hurls the label "troll" at people the same way the label "terrorist" is hurled at people to evoke emotional responses.
I have told "Thunder" and "Azzy" and "DarkDancer" and other moderators how I feel about these heavy handed tactic they use, tactics which primarily exclude people in what I had been led to believe was an inclusive movement designed to improve everyone's lives and society as a whole. I have also tried several methods of getting this information into the forums so that people can make informed decisions as to who and what they will support. These attempts were further used to paint me as a "troll", a "vandal" and so on. I feel that I have endured quite a bit of harassment by your moderator team since I joined the movement. Again, I'm sure you have some preconceived notions about that based on what "Thunder" and other moderators have told you. I implore you to do something about this situation, as I have been informed that this threatening voice mail is legally actionable. The last thing I want is to engage the legal system here, but I feel at this point I have no choice.
I'd also like to get "Thunder"'s full name and address from you so that I can pursue a legal remedy to this harassment. This harassment constitutes a violation of both state and federal law. In order to pursue those remedies, I need this person's information. Thanks in advance.
regards,
Codie Vickers
---------------------
Go fuck yourself Codie.
We are all working to get a restraining order against you and it IS going to happen, so have fun while you can with your stupid games.
Peter
---------------
Good luck with that, making threats the way "Thunder" did is violation of federal cyberstalking laws, and the FBI has been informed. Such actions are punishable by up to two years in federal prison. I hope "Thunder" has a good lawyer, and I hope you do, too.
regards,
Codie Vickers
PS: Watch your language, potty-mouth.
-------------------
(Peter's responce)
blah blah blah... moron.
------------------
...we have so much against you in the form of harassment and "hate crime" that it is beyond laughable that you think you can intimidate me. We have EVERYTHING documented. I will enjoy seeing you put in jail as the bigot you are after we get the restaining order against you and violate it. And you think I don't have legal team? You think I am not prepared for shit like this. Think again, asshole.
Peter
---------
I'm very disappointed in this response. I'd expect this from somebody I have less respect for, but not Peter Joseph Merola.
regards,
Codie Vickers
--------
Peter Joseph Merola Esquire, to be exact. You need my address? Please
note that I have had a case file being set up for you for months. I am
so excited you have email me to continue your harassment- PERFECT! keep
em coming fuckhead.
Peter
-----------------
Wow, color my mind officially blown. What "shit" is it that you're prepared for, exactly? You're prepared to harass and threaten people with impunity? Don't think that "Thunder" is going to get away with violating federal cyberstalking laws. Nobody is above the law, and "Thunder" violated the law. I sincerely hope he uses his time in federal prison constructively.
regards,
Codie Vickers
--------
I think you should calm down, Peter Jospeh Merola. Blowing your top isn't going to do you any good, and it won't do "Thunder" any good, either. My advice would be to tone down your language. Is this really the face you want to present to the world?
regards,
Codie Vickers
---------
(Peter's responce)
Once again: go fuck yourself and expect the sheriff to issue a restraining order soon against you.
( and btw- moron- me saying you are going to get restraining order isn't a "threat"- it is fully legal accusation, supported by evidence- so please- get your shit together. )
End of Communication.
--------------
I'd never suggest that a legal restraining order is a threat, but "Thunder"'s voice mail to me is being taken very seriously as a threat by the FBI. I can only hope that he uses his time in federal prison productively. Incidentally, Peter Joseph Merola, what is it that I've done that has riled you so? I concluded from listening to your lectures and your audio blogs that you were much more level-headed than this. What is with all the profanity?
If you'd care to discuss this with me in person, feel free to visit the RBOSE forums, the Mumble server or the IRC server. These forums are open to all members of the zeitgeist movement, including you, including me, and you will have no fear there of being harassed and intimidated by moderators in the fashion many users have experienced on the zeitgeistmovement.com web site.
The server information for the RBOSE Mumble server and IRC server follows:
website: http://rbose.org/
IRC information: server: rbose.org port: 6677
/server rbose.org 6677
IRC web client (click): http://rbose.serveirc.com/?channels=RBOSE
Are meeting will be conduct in the mumble server, which is voice over IP it's like ventrilo or Teamspeak but it's open source.
mumble: server: rbose.org port: 64738
If you'd care to just listen in on the Mumble server, we have a Shoutcast server set up:
http://24.164.124.9:8000/listen.pls
regards,
Codie Vickers
----------
You will see the case against you when the sheriff comes to your house.
-----------
"Thunder" will see the case against him when the FBI visits him.
regards,
Codie Vickers
-------------
(Peter's responce)
lol
-----------
http://www.cyberguards.com/CyberStalking.html
"Federal law provides a number of important tools that are available to combat cyberstalking. Under 18 U.S.C. 875(c), it is a federal crime, punishable by up to five years in prison and a fine of up to $250,000, to transmit any communication in interstate or foreign commerce containing a threat to injure the person of another. Section 875(c) applies to any communication actually transmitted in interstate or foreign commerce - thus it includes threats transmitted in interstate or foreign commerce via the telephone, e-mail, beepers, or the Internet."
"Certain forms of cyberstalking also may be prosecuted under 47 U.S.C. 223. One provision of this statute makes it a federal crime, punishable by up to two years in prison, to use a telephone or telecommunications device to annoy, abuse, harass, or threaten any person at the called number. The statute also requires that the perpetrator not reveal his or her name. See 47 U.S.C. 223(a)(1)(C). Although this statute is broader than 18 U.S.C. 875 -- in that it covers both threats and harassment -- Section 223 applies only to direct communications between the perpetrator and the victim."
Please inform Gregory Wantz that if he had told me who he was in the voice mail that he would not have violated this federal statute. Let me tell you, the FBI takes these laws very seriously.
regards,
Codie Vickers
END of convo
---------------------
I find it a bit dictatorial again that Peter Merola would promote to black list a group because of one member as well as tell it's member to stay away from RBOSE because of one individual. That's typically how things are ran, however Peter decree's everyone else must follow or be banned. Cult? Religion? Sect?
No surprise though why Thunder real name is Gregory Wantz did what he did he's a Regional Manager, National Credit Associates, Inc. He's use to collecting debt by harassing and this individual has high status in TZM is simply mind boggling (link below)
http://www.plaxo.com/directory/profile/55836348886/fb22f017/Gregory/Wantz
So now on the top of the TZM movement we have people at the top who are politicians, actors, film makers, debt collectors, dancers, paid tech support. Yup I see a success in moving over to a resource based economy within the Zeitgeist movement/venus project coming soon!
I'll plug Thunders websites for this forum for people who want clean credit!
http://www.CleanCreditForAll.com
if you do a whois on cleancreditforall.com you will find
Registrant:
Gregory Wantz
1404 Stockton St
Orcutt, California 93455
United States
Domain Name: CLEANCREDITFORALL.COM
Created on: 10-Jan-09
Expires on: 10-Jan-11
Last Updated on: 18-Jan-09
Administrative Contact:
Wantz, Gregory
1404 Stockton St
Orcutt, California 93455
United States
(805) 264-1131 Fax -
Technical Contact:
Wantz, Gregory
1404 Stockton St
Orcutt, California 93455
United States
(805) 264-1131 Fax -
Domain servers in listed order:
NS51.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
NS52.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
---------------
Just keep in mind that RBOSE is as flat of a structure as possible therefore RBOSE has no leaders, one of important things about RBOSE is reaching decision by consensus. RBOSE is not designed to control a individual (EX: thoughts, actions etc..) that does things outside of RBOSE. Whatever a individual does outside of RBOSE is their business. RBOSE is a project work platform.
find out more abut us go to
http://www.rbose.org
IRC chat below
http://rbose.serveirc.com/?channels=RBOSE
if the actions of one individual are negative of that towards another group we
-----------------------
New about Thunder
Gergory Wantz has taken his information off his plaxo profile but I have more ifno on this guy and saved documentation, here is the info again for up on my webserver link below
http://st0rage.org/~graalreborn11/Thunder%20aka%20Gregory%20Wantz/Gregory%20Wantz%27s%20Public%20Profile.htm
here is a picture of original apparently it doesn't load right on my webserver but it loads just doesn't look good.
http://img718.imageshack.us/i/28601408.png/
Gregory Wantz should man up and keep is information up their public like he says I suppose he isn't much of a man then ehh? All talk no play meh
Billll said this on April 22, 2010 at 8:28 am | Reply

As much as the majority of people here despise (or other things) Plautus I found out from this individual that Thunder had called his house and left a interesting message on his answering machine. It just didn't stop there as Plautus had contacted Peter Merola through e-mail to inform him of what happened. As it is pretty funny I find it a bit sad that individuals who have status in TZM would go out of their way to call peoples personal phone numbers and leave a message saying "Your days are numbered 7uck3r" and at that Peter would not only act rude to such an individual with a legitimate complaint about someone in TZM staff but would actually back them up. This isn't shocking to me anymore as this is typically how things are ran at in TZM.
As i will continue to improve the validity of the e-mail it's safe to say the Peter's address blacklisting RBOSE (as of April 18, 2010) because of Plautus may have corresponded with the e-mail between Plautus and Peter hence why I will release this information and continue to put up more information as necessary.
(RBOSE has been blacklisted from the zeitgeist movement as of today April 18, 2010, link below)
http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=229&id=249403#249403
Below I have audio recording stream and download of Thunders message on answering machine
http://www.zshare.net/audio/75090721be41d269/
I have a saved Gmail HTML format page of Plautus e-mail conversation with Peter Merola on a website as well as I will post the txt on this forum.
http://st0rage.org/~graalreborn11/Grits%20harassed%20by%20Thunder%20and%20Peter/Gmail%20-%20threats%20made%20via%20voice%20mail%20by%20%27Thunder%27%20-%20plautus@gmail.com.htm
saved download versions of Gmail HTML format page of Plautus e-mail conversation with Peter Merola
http://www.zshare.net/download/75105343afca222a/
New about Thunder
Gergory Wantz has taken his information off his plaxo profile but I have more ifno on this guy and saved documentation, here is the info again for up on my webserver link below
http://st0rage.org/~graalreborn11/Thunder%20aka%20Gregory%20Wantz/Gregory%20Wantz%27s%20Public%20Profile.htm
here is a picture of original apparently it doesn't load right on my webserver but it loads just doesn't look good.
http://img718.imageshack.us/i/28601408.png/
Gregory Wantz should man up and keep is information up their public like he says I suppose he isn't much of a man then ehh? All talk no play meh
Billll said this on April 22, 2010 at 8:32 am | Reply

Here is a thread on Codie Vickers posted on TZM forums, the IRC transcripts are pretty damning evidence.
http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=229&id=249403
Gavin said this on April 22, 2010 at 11:36 pm | Reply

What evidence... that's all outside of the TZM movement. Are you saying that they will use evidence from third party sources against individuals? Can you confirm that those posts were made by that individual? Were they made on the official TZM servers?
Billll said this on April 23, 2010 at 2:13 pm

Dang, Troll fits "platus" pretty well. I mean it in the sense that he never lets ANYTHING go and will use swear words and racial slurs when he feels threatened, I find it hard to deal with an individual like that constantly as it is annoying and counter-productive. And this division is exactly why an RBE hasn't been achieved and the mentality needs to be healed and repaired. People lack respect for each other based on values that are meaningless in a monetary system
tlw said this on May 17, 2010 at 8:37 am

yeah Plautus swears and is annoying.
But have you actually sat and talked with him?
he is actually a smart guy and believes in the ideals of a RBE passionately.
anticultist said this on May 17, 2010 at 12:16 pm

I must say excellent blog :)
Billll said this on April 22, 2010 at 8:31 am | Reply

I have been giving a lot of thought to the problem of TVP and how to best address the problem and solve it with the greatest degree of efficiency.
There are several conclusions I have come to and I would like to share them with you.
1. TVP is on the face of it based on true and good principles. The top Core Axioms of TVP are actually true.
These include Axioms centered around defining the problems with the current economic system and Axioms defining a better system. Defenders and Apologists of TVP want to think about, focus on, and argue the validity of those axioms. We need to be clear with them that those axioms are true, that we understand them to be true, and that there is no contest over those Axioms.
2. Jaques is actually a very intelligent and very admirable person. However, there are real limits to what he actually does know and can be competent for. These limits include anything regarding sociology, systems theory, game theory, simulation, or psychology. Jaques is an excellent artist, and for a hobbyist hes an enlightened civil Engineer. However, hes not an actual Civil Engineer, hes a hobbyist. He is a visionary, and he is absolutely right about Economics, Energy, and the general direction which we need to go in to evolve economically. What he does not know anything about and can make no serious claim on is sociology, psychohistory, or etc. In short, because he cries wolf and inflates his real competence with exaggerations and lies, he makes himself suspicious for all of his claims even though some of them may be somewhat true.
3. The core weakness and core fallacy of TVP is not in its core ideals, but in its handling of social reality and social aspects of running a movement. The difference between a social movement and a Cult, at the core of it, is whether or not the organization acts to empower the participants, or instead acts only to en-richen and empower the top echelon. TVP is a cult because it allows itself to be abusive, because the admins on the forum and other places are ad hominem wielding, codependency power trippers, not moderators, and because the net result of their paranoid delusions and ego trips is that they infallibly alienate anyone who has an actual education, or anyone whos interested in real collaboration, or paths of meaningful right action. TVP is not a cult for having false core axioms. It is a cult for being manipulative, abusive, dishonest, and evil towards and about people in general.
4. This cannot be rationally denied. The people close to the movement like Nanos Or Gavin have to tip toe and walk on eggshells and constantly play at self censorship in a minefield of forbidden topics, forbidden issues, and forbidden people. The threads on the forum do not lead to collaboration and are merely chat threads, not productive, and not collaborative. The good ideas of the participants are given lip service, but then fall off the thread list and into TVPs memory hole.
5. Ad hominem attacks, however much they feel good for relieving ones annoyance at the cult, Do not promote an understanding or lead other people to leave the Cult. The tactics we need to employ are the standard Anti Cult tactics, and that means that we need to consider people actively involved in TVP and their psychology, and build bridges and escape hatches out of the mental cages that are comfortable and inviting to them. This requires a strong focus on the core flaws, and even stronger focus on being diplomatically centered and in service to escapees who may often be confrontational. If TVP can easily dismiss us by calling us a smear campaign and a troll game or etc, and have that stick because we are indeed speaking trollese due to being pissed off, we only play into their game and the sleight of mind. We have to be INORDINANTLY NICE AND DIPLOMATIC TOWARDS CULT MEMBERS IN ORDER TO MAKE THEM SEE THE DIFFERENCE.
6. The case to be made against TVP is then about how it does in fact abuse people, and how it does in fact alienate as well as fear any actual scientists or experts. This can be demonstrated on a case by case basis for 20 examples of each kind of abuse.
A. Ad hominem attacks against new people/ people asking questions.
B. Passive Aggressive manipulations against long standing members.
C. Conflicts between moderators and admins in demonstration of no metaprocess.
D. Appeals to or from authority in response to questions on their forum
E. Lies about people they interact with, ban from their site, or etc.
F. Freaking out and going postal the moment somebody informs them that they know something that the organization or its moderators don't.
G. Making transparently false claims about their knowledge in order to pretend and in order to cover up their paranoid delusional fears and real fears about being discovered as ignorant.
H. Ad hominem attacks against long standing members
I. Other forms of attack, such as straw man argument and false dilemma against people asking legitimate questions on their forum or etc.
7. So, what we need is 20 good examples of each of these behaviors, and a core thread per each of these behaviors, in order to pin down these behaviors and prove to people that this happens, and that it happens frequently and chronically and habitually, and in order to make the point that we are not arguing against the core axioms; but against how the movement BEHAVES towards people.
8. Most importantly, we must not engage in these behaviors ourselves, and must show through our own demonstration of interaction how it is possible to handle high tension conflict without resorting to being abusive, demeaning, or manipulative towards the cult members whom we are trying to save.
Prometheuspan said this on April 22, 2010 at 11:23 am | Reply

hey bill! thanks for joining us. I'm working the RBEF angle right now but i am increasingly curious and hoping that we can work together in the future.
I think that all of the splinter groups in some senses are siblings... like having an abusive father....
we all know what its like, we all been there and thru it.
And we have a lot to offer each other in what we picked up for different approaches.
Right now, RBEF is restructuring everything from scratch.
They could possibly really use your ideas and input to add into
their thinking. I hope you come visit!
I promise, i will come over to RBOSE as much as you come over to RBEF?
---------------
"You know, Michael Ruppert once said a very smart thing that went something along the lines of this: "That's what happens when you tell the truth, everyone hates you""
yeah, well, thats what VTVs real issue is with me, and i think you know that. If so, and, go read it over and check, cuz i ain't lyin' then whose got the problem? me or him?
I will say it again gavin. I like Jaques and PJ. But ...
I AM THE MAN WITH 20 PHDS and A 180 IQ. And they are just
two 130 IQ guys with maybe four masters between the two of them.
VTV has no business pretending to know squat in my presence. At all. He should be kneeling at my feet and kissing my ass for even bothering to come to his forum.
If i try to tell him hes being mean to Jeremy, he should listen to me. If he can't, then hes doubly stuck inside of jacking off with a pitchfork.
As i told him. I will solve all of these problems, with or without tvp. And if they make themselves a problem, that problem will get solved.
-------
" I don't see any problem with TZM or TVP nor do I see it as a cult,"
then why did you remind thunder and vtv that they were the ones using ad hominems not me?
please, just be honest with yourself. All is not well in paradise.
"they have good ideas and have come up with a sustainable system "
true and exactly why i would bother to put all of this energy into saving them instead of just letting demons be demons and leaving it alone.
"that could improve the lives of all the world's people."
thats great, but its not going to happen as long as they are in reality abusive to more people than they helping. or merely leaching money off of good ideas instead of allowing them to be implemented.
" We, as in the RBE promoters, can afford to be split up like we are now, we need to work together and collaborate to come up with a solid plan and it sounds like a lot of the people on the TZM forums want that too."
I have a solid plan. I don;t need to come up with one. But instead of running me as a dictatorship, RBEF is having an open source
democratic restructuring section and anyone can participate in writing he core documents.
The difference between rbef and tvp could not make the whole thing more self evident.
" Again, I can't really say where I stand until I hear you guys' side of the story about why you were banned and/or left and what you think is wrong with TVP aside from not having a transitional plan"
They are abusive. period. the end.
you can have all of the good ideas in the world. But if you always treat people like garbage because you are terrified they might let
the world on the secret that your entire poker game is nothing but solid bluff, then the only outcome for them, or helping people, is the result of their karma, not their good ideas.
Prometheuspan said this on April 22, 2010 at 5:29 pm | Reply

Wow, you're too full of yourself buddy, I don't care how many PHD's you claim to have or what you say your IQ is. Quit trying to make yourself out to be some genius, I don't give 2 shits about your appeal to authority. Now, I haven't been on the forums long and don't know the history in this or who did what so I have no idea what you are talking about when you say they are abusive, I'm going to need some proof here. And BTW, I can see why Peter would be pissed at you guys, he kept his identity secret for a reason and you blew it wide open, that was a dick move.
Gavin said this on April 22, 2010 at 10:25 pm | Reply

Actually Gavin, his identity was always freely available on the internet from his own doing. We just compiled it all together in one place.
anticultist said this on April 23, 2010 at 12:12 am

"Wow, you're too full of yourself buddy, I don't care how many PHD's you claim to have or what you say your IQ is. Quit trying to make yourself out to be some genius, I don't give 2 shits about your appeal to authority."
i'm not making an appeal to authority.
I'm telling you who you are actually dealing with and pointing out why tvp is inherently flawed.
" Now, I haven't been on the forums long and don't know the history in this or who did what so I have no idea what you are talking about when you say they are abusive,"
is this the same gavin who commented and made a new thread labeled
"ad hominem"? or not?
" I'm going to need some proof here. And BTW, I can see why Peter would be pissed at you guys, he kept his identity secret for a reason and you blew it wide open, that was a dick move."
If he wasn't so busy making people wrong in order to prop his movement up as more right, he wouldn't be needing to try to hide.
If he hadn't decided to take on the government and all world religions, and then been dumb enough to leave his details sitting out in the open, he wouldn't have this problem.
You blaming us for PJ being a paranoid delusional is increasingly ludicrous.
He made his enemies the old fashioned way; by taking on a bully pulpit.
Thats his bed, and hes the one who gets to lay in it.
I'm the one who showed up and tried to point out that the movement could not only make peace with such folks but actually use them as clients, by dropping the paranoid delusions and cloak and dagger anarchist mentality.
In any case, i would have personally respected his right for privacy, thats not my choice to make. On that i can agree with you, it wasn't an action of integrity to "out" him.
However, anti cultist only recently picked me up in this work, and he has done the best job he knew to do. He made a mistake. Its not even as bad as PJ posting Jaques image in that European TV tax add.
prometheuspan said this on April 23, 2010 at 2:23 pm | Reply

No, I've never talked to any of you before or made a thread, gavin is just a name I made up, I didn't expect anyone else to have it.
gavin said this on April 24, 2010 at 1:13 am | Reply

ah. i apologize then.
my mistake, i hope you can appreciate how that would be an easy mistake to make.
:)
prometheuspan said this on May 3, 2010 at 12:40 am | Reply

20 PHD's? hahaha
Sky said this on May 12, 2010 at 5:26 am | Reply

An excellent blog indeed Billll.
By Gavin:
"The Zeitgeist Movement has purposefully separated itself from both documentaries and frankly, I don't care if you call me a conspiracy theorist, I have proof to back up every conspiracy I believe."
No, Zeitgeist: Addendum is still in the toolkit:
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=9&id=250977
By AntiCultist:
"Peter Joseph stated his conspiracy theory movie Z1 is his best recruiting tool for the movement Gavin, he said this publicly."
Yup:
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=231&id=240877&limit=10&limitstart=50#242730
Prometheuspan:
"Thats not a social movement, its christianity repackaged for atheists."
You know... They do sort of have a religious tone. It should have hit me early when Peter Joseph referred to the internet as our "savior" and he referred to himself as a "real christian" bringing up Jacque Fresco saying that Christianity is
a good idea and wondered when it's going to be practiced. Proof?
The Larry King interview from 1974
Peter Joseph radio shows. I can't remember which one.
Zeitgeist: Addendum
[I didn't feel like time-framing]
I thought the REVOLVER clips were insightful too by the way. And yeah, their list of foes keeps growing.
Gavin:
"Ok, I'm new to this whole conflict so perhaps it's best for you to explain why you were banned or whatever, it seems to me that they think you guys are trolls and you think they are trolls."
No, critical thinkers are banned and are called "trolls" in a form of scapegoatism. And them making levels up makes them get away with it even more. Like when the government put people on the terrorist watch list, you know? Maybe that's where the paranoid thoughts come in. Look at the ban list there:
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=60&id=154760
Views: 11620
Says it all doesn't it?
If they are not capable of talking to critical thinkers to begin with, then they should just leave them alone instead of trying to pretend to be more intelligent than the person that is analytical. That's where the whole ego thing comes in.
And I left my own accord as well before they found some irrational way to ban me.
Billll's post about Thunder threatening people is very informative too, for a movement that calls itself a non-violent one and keep people like Thunder in their staff is nothing but disturbing to me. But yet, everyone leaving TZM is somehow ignorant and therefore left for no reason. BS (Bad Science). It was a threat:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=your+days+are+numbered
They can try to say stupid stuff like the audio was chopped up and edited and I can say that's BS as well. Especially chopping up audio myself. Reading those responses from PJ did surprise me a little, but I should have known better after reading them doing the same thing here:
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=94&t=148
Prometheuspan:
"ah. i apologize then.
my mistake, i hope you can appreciate how that would be an easy mistake to make.
:)"
I can see how that mix-up could have happened:
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=60&id=230522
Sky:
"20 PHD's? hahaha"
Well, he does have an interesting resume:
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=128&t=1512
Thanks for the blog.
BranManFloMore said this on May 12, 2010 at 3:36 pm | Reply

"Well, he does have an interesting resume:"
more importantly, i will be leading the public through a crash course on those subjects in the coming months and my work on the RBEF forum in that direction already proves at least 3 of those
expertise areas.
"If they are not capable of talking to critical thinkers to begin with, then they should just leave them alone instead of trying to pretend to be more intelligent than the person that is analytical. That's where the whole ego thing comes in."
they are more afraid of being exposed than interested in what other people have to offer them.
pretending to be know it alls, they cage themselves in ignorance.
prometheuspan said this on May 13, 2010 at 12:18 am | Reply

I agree.
BranManFloMore said this on May 13, 2010 at 1:14 am | Reply

Esquire is cognate with the word squire, which originally meant an apprentice or assistant to a knight.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esquire
flint said this on May 17, 2010 at 8:49 am | Reply

Then you have to wonder why would Peter Joseph Merola add an esquire to his name in a discourse with Codie Vickers ?
anticultist said this on May 17, 2010 at 12:14 pm | Reply

I have no clue AntiCultist. I have no clue.
From talking to Codie, he told me that he was once on Ventrilo like a year ago in TZM and started talking about MUMBLE and how everyone should switch from there since it was open-source. Instead of them considering what he was saying, he was met with threatening words by someone saying to him "I wish someone would shut him off" or something like that. I forgot if it was direct or indirect from what he told me. From there, he was highly upset and when he got upset - he was banned because of the hostility he presented. I assure you, if a MOD acted like this in any outlet, they would have got away with it, but for Codie - they demonized him to the max. And I thought the Zeitgeist Movement was about locating the root cause to everything, I guess I was wrong. So I don't feel bad for TZM at all, they created the problem themselves and I have spoken with Codie a few times and he's a cool guy. But yeah, since TZM didn't handle the situation right, he has been constantly making forum accounts trying to expose them as much as he can and every time he jumps in, his information is immediately deleted. Instead of them apologizing to him, they choose to upset him more. He probably doesn't even care about TZM now from how he was treated. Even when he was banned the first time, he was still in support of it which was amazing to me. But now, I don't know. Just because TZM has bad communication problems doesn't mean everyone they talk to is bad/corrupt/troll and to think like that would be narrow-minded. Whatever label they want to use to provoke emotional acts from people. I think it's getting more obvious that TZM is a problem in general. The word "troll" and "terrorist" go hand in hand:
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=60&id=216501
I swore I remember seeing that breakdown by the former member Viper there. They must have censored that of course. Viper chills at RBOSE too. As you can see in that thread, some other information was removed as well which points out how corrupt TZM is already.
Just like what Codie said in that video and if anyone wants to talk to him personally, you can jump in the outlets of RBOSE by using IRC or MUMBLE:
http://rbose.org/wiki/IRC
http://rbose.org/wiki/Mumble
You can chat with them and they will speak for themselves in more detail.
BranManFloMore said this on May 17, 2010 at 1:05 pm | Reply

haha theres nothing left in that post to read other than the mod and pro opinion :S
This is why I made this blog, because when I saw this deleting and banning happening from the early days when mods were installed I realised that people would need somewhere to speak.
Also this is why I dont allow them [TZM fanatics] to post on here, they dont deserve any more propaganda outlets than they already have.
anticultist said this on May 17, 2010 at 1:13 pm | Reply

I agree.
And here it is:
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=60&id=216501#218059
I must be tired.
But yeah...
BranManFloMore said this on May 17, 2010 at 2:06 pm


anticultist blog comment continued...
http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/forum/5539/archiving-anticultist-blog-on-sp/3/#reply-462a1bba



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#74 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
The Burger KingPosted: Jun 19, 2013 - 23:43
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I can't stop posting pictures of poop, what the fuck is wrong with me?

Level: 5
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anticultist blog comment continued...


After having spend some time with the work of different conspiracy theorist I agree that their work is not beyond criticism and neither their methods. While I found Zeitgeist quite sober, Alex Jones seems to make a lot of bold statements and it is impossible to investigate every accusation he makes. But that doesn't change the facts put forward by an army of scientists, engineers and so on about 9/11. And as long as these so called conspiracies are not taken seriously, and does not become a part of the mainstream debate, we will never know the truth. In my experience the truth is distilled out of the diversity of opinion and I cannot see why 9 11 and the whole Federal Reserve conspiracy theory are so dangerous that they cannot be discussed in a sober way. I heard once that "truth is not afraid of questions" and I believe that is true.
Regarding the title with accompanying article: "The psychological profile of a conspiracy theorist" I wonder if you would put Abraham Lincoln, Woodrow Wilson, JFK and every united states president that rebelled against the notion of a Federal Reserve into that box? Where they merely crazy conspiracy theorists or did they just see the world more clear? Through out history, dating back to ancient Rome, statesmen and thinkers have observed and criticized those in power. For good reason? Probably. I don't think there is anything revolutionizing in Zeitgeist, it probably just describes the world as it has always been. But that doesn't mean that the world cannot be improved on. I like the idea proposed by the Venus project, and can really not see why that is not possible in a couple of thousand years. But I cannot imagine that the Venus project becomes a reality soon. Not because it's a bad idea, but because it would require a transformation in the human condition that is so drastically that it is unlikely to happen all at once
claus said this on May 20, 2010 at 4:19 pm | Reply

911 has already been discussed in mainstream by numerous scholars, thinkers, researchers and crackpots. The general consensus is what is stated on the tin: planes crashed into the towers, people were killed and america went to war because of it.
The conspiracy notions arent ignored because theyre dangerous, theyre ignored because they've been refuted over and over and over. And its generally the mind set of a conspiracist to believe in it even when presented with evidence, that is unless the evidence confirms their biases.
Would I dare to class woodrow wilson or abraham lincoln in the same league as crackpot conspiracists? No
Since conspiracists tend to think they are in the know of some hidden knowledge and facts noone else has, it is usually just a simple case of delusion. That is not to say that shady things dont happen, but when the evidence states otherwise like JFK/911 etc etc etc then its simply time to move on and get over it.
http://conspiracyscience.com/forums/
anticultist said this on May 20, 2010 at 4:26 pm | Reply

Ha! Been dicussed in the mainstream? What, by Natgeo's fail of a debunking? 9/11 has not come even close to being debunked, let alone in the mainstream. And as for JFK, you are apparently ignoring my previous post, the JFK conspiracy is very popular and a 6.5 lapua, nor any other bullet, can pull that magic bullet shit.
gavin said this on May 20, 2010 at 6:37 pm

its called a conspiracy theory because there is no real evidence to support the conspiracy. If it had solid irrefutable evidence everybody would just call it a conspiracy fact.
Conspiracy theorists collect massive amounts of misinformation from unacceptable sources and call it fact, all the while ignoring real facts released by universities governments, the news, and scientists [Anti Credentialism is just a neat way to avoid listening to more educated and well researched people, and at the same time using less credentialed people as their evidence].
This is because CT'rs have created a wild fantasy in their mind and no matter how many times you prove them wrong they will always ignore the fact they were wrong. Selective/Confirmation bias.
That would be you Gavin. You are a cherry picker.
anticultist said this on May 20, 2010 at 6:49 pm

Listen and learn Gavin you need it as much as the next person. Ive watched it, listened and paid attention.
anticultist said this on May 20, 2010 at 6:58 pm

Have a bit of Freud while you're at it.
anticultist said this on May 20, 2010 at 7:08 pm

Apparently you are forgetting that the entire point of the 9/11 truth movement is to get an investigation. No one is claiming to have all the answers, it is a theory overall but there are facts within. Chances are, none of the theories that people have come up with regarding 9/11 are correct but they fit the evidence.Perhaps you need to watch this and realize that it was not reptiod theorists that dominate the 9/11 truth movement, but honest people who see that the official conspiracy theory is a bunch of shit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak2MjMhST1Y
Gavin said this on May 20, 2010 at 11:05 pm

The fact you say I think reptoids believers are all there are is a complete joke, I havent even once said that.
Likewise the fact you call the official investigations and academic peers evidence an 'official conspiracy theory' and without quotation marks speaks volumes about your mind set.
official conspiracy theory my arse
Im not forgetting anything Gavin, the people involved in the truth movement being bandied as experts are no such thing.
If you want to have a 911 chat and detract from your own psychological status, [ie your conspiracist thinking] I suggest go to conspiracy science forum here:
http://www.conspiracyscience.com
Take it up with them, they will be willing to teach you a few things, that is if you are willing to learn.
PS
My father is an ex-fireman, hes been involved in hundreds of fires and guess what ?
Shit explodes... even in house fires.
anticultist said this on May 20, 2010 at 11:12 pm

Response to Gavins WTC7 explosion video --- ANY FURTHER DISCUSSI0N 0F THIS TAKE IT T0 C0NSPIRACY SCIENCE:
The sound at 1.13 seconds is from 7 HOURS EARLIER... if it is genuine at all.
http://www.911myths.com/index.php/A_WTC7_explosion_video
The rest of the explosions up until 1.44 are just random explosion sounds, this is entirely expected. Where are all the explosion sounds when the building collapses, like an ACTUAL DEMOLITION?
And then we have Kevin McFadden, who is Alex Jones' friend and lied about a radio countdown.

I particularly love it when truthers use McFadden since it conflicts with their argument. McFadden describes massive earthshaking explosions "ba-boom! ba-boom!" when WTC7 falls, since this was certainly not picked up by any videos in the area or anyone else or described by any of the firefighters that waited around for WTC7 to collapse its pretty obvious they never happened.
And of course we have Barry Jennings, truthers claim he was thrown around by explosives... 7 hours before it collapses again... but of course he didn't sustain any injuries consistent with explosives either.
Eric Lawyer... a conspiracy theorist firefighter from Seattle who was not a first responder and is hated by the FDNY.
taken from here: http://conspiracyscience.com/forums/topic/911-nutters#post-7155
anticultist said this on May 21, 2010 at 2:37 am

thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kb&task=article&article=3&Itemid=100091
The official story is an official conspiracy theory, plain and simple, it has never been proven that Osama had anything to do with it and there has never been any investigation worth a damn.
And BTW, this is not shit blowing up like in a house fire: http://youtube.com/watch?v=cCAoJuDw2Ic
Gavin said this on May 20, 2010 at 11:35 pm

First up Gavin I am glad you have made the last few posts, you have simply proven everything I am saying.
People like you will believe anything on youtube even though you have zero credibility/experience/education in anything to do with fires, architecture, aircraft crashes, or high level physics. You cite a youtube video with a few flashes as some kind of evidence that there is explosives and a conspiracy theory to blow it up?
You have more than likely never been in any kind of building on fire like a multi story building, and apartment block, a house, a factory, what would you know about anything?
The answer quite simply is nothing, you are watching a video and placing your pre concieved bias on it and then using it as a confirmation to your conspiracist mindset. Firemen regularly through out their careers go into numerous hazardous situations, with varied fires and scenarios, I think I would trust their opinion about what happens in fires above your insignificant video that shows nothing of concern.
oh and before you start citing the firemen at 911 talking about explosions, their statements have been taken out of context, they were not saying that there was a conspiracy to blow it up, they were explaining how the building reacted to the fire, IE it was blowing up, and there were explosions in it, like I just said, explosions happen in fires....FFS
You post a link to zeitgeist which is completely irrelevant and off topic. which I have edited to not hotlink
You ignored my suggestion not to talk about 911 here, and ignored my suggestion you take it to a forum who will gladly entertain your delusions which I even linked for you to have your wild delusions entertained.
All the while you are showing your stubborness, your thick head, your wild notions of reality, and everything I have said and posted above is evidenced in you here.
I have checked out your posts and theyre quite simply ridiculous.
Do you even see how crazy you are making yourself sound ?
PS these are all rhetorical questions, don't bother answering anymore I have no time to play the 911 merry go round with a tin foil hatter. Chances are you are going to ignore this as well, because thats what you conspiracy nutters are like.
anticultist said this on May 21, 2010 at 12:11 am

Interesting videos and yeah - for the most part - there is a lot of fearmongering out there and I guess we can blame Hollywood and the video game industry for that. There's either a new army video game or a new horror film out when I watch commercials today and when people go online to find online documentaries to want to learn more about current events, they most likely hit a film with conspiracy theories in the mix, what do you expect? So, we're all normal from our environment. I mean, Alex Jones alone has worked on over 20 documentaries himself rather it was directed or produced by him. So we can't just sit here and just call the Zeitgeist Movement silly conspiracy theorists as if the Zeitgeist films started the conspiracy psychology. Obviously Peter Joseph was influenced by him (AJ) heavily rather he tries to deny it or not. About the last video though, I do understand the authority connection - people do in some ways want to be "King Monkey" if you will about who discovered what first. Therefore I see the competition mindset there already in people because of that rather it's watching the news finding out something or bragging about what new movie or game you have. And I do think some people like a little mystery and I think some people want simple answers. Not all people want simple answers because people are simply curious. As we were kids, I'm sure we bothered are parents a lot by asking questions:

There's nothing wrong with questioning things at all.
Here's a video I would like to share with y'all:

"The argument from ignorance, also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam ("appeal to ignorance" , argument by lack of imagination, or negative evidence, is a logical fallacy in which it is claimed that a premise is true only because it has not been proven false, or is false only because it has not been proven true."
Links:
http://changingminds.org/disciplines/argument/fallacies/from_ignorance.htm
http://www.startbreakingfree.com/tag/argument-from-ignorance
http://skepticwiki.org/index.php/Argument_from_Ignorance
Just something to throw in about UFO. Remember what it stands for ladies and gentlemen. I think Neil DrGrasse Tyson is the shiznit.
BranManFloMore said this on May 20, 2010 at 10:24 pm | Reply

Indeed questioning is absolutely essential, thats part of the whole psychology of being human.
And is part of the critical thought processes and learning.
The problem arrives when we draw faulty conclusions due to our misunderstanding/ignorance/nievete and personal biases.
If one has never looked deep into the CT world one cant discuss it fully, and likewise if one has never been a functional part of the 'normal' society one cant discuss it fully and truthfully.
It takes a truly open mind to get to the real facts, someone prepared to listen to all sides.
I have spent years listening to hardcore CT'rs and to be truthful most dont listen to the mainstream as if its any use. They are as bad as the ignorant people they claim need waking up.
anticultist said this on May 20, 2010 at 10:47 pm | Reply

thats why i left the ranks lol
prometheuspan said this on May 21, 2010 at 3:51 am | Reply

I think that Peter is a learning person. Can't ask for more than that.
GavinPalmer1984 said this on June 29, 2010 at 6:31 pm | Reply

You could ask for verified facts, and academic peer reviewed science.
You of all people should know Gavin
anticultist said this on June 30, 2010 at 4:05 am | Reply

Yes I can. I can ask for a learned person.
NWO Agent said this on June 30, 2010 at 11:08 pm | Reply

[...] A high percentage of the zeitgeist movements followers are conspiracy theorists drawn towards the movement through Peter's deceptive movies. His first two films attribute many facets of societies problems into externalised grand claims, such as the worlds problems are caused by a rigged financial system controlled by the federal bankers whose aim is to ruin the lives of people. This is apparently achieved by manipulation of companies, stocks, inf ... Read More [...]
The psychological profile of a conspiracy theorist « Peace & Nonviolence Project said this on July 19, 2010 at 5:41 pm | Reply

Why do you hide your name, I cant seem to click on your user name to view your profile, wanted to know more about YOU.
Is this possible, or does it bother you.
Don't mean to be a bother.
The RSVP Network said this on July 19, 2010 at 6:57 pm | Reply

Not sure who you are aiming that at ?
anticultist said this on July 19, 2010 at 8:19 pm | Reply

delete that anticultist, doesnt show a profile for you but your link is working now, might of been my netbook. DO you have facebook? Or any of you guys?
The RSVP Network said this on July 22, 2010 at 5:26 am

[...] The psychological profile of a conspiracy theorist [...]
Zeitgeist Blogs: Zeitgeist is a Mind Heist « Zeitgeist Movement Exposed said this on November 10, 2010 at 9:11 pm | Reply




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#75 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
The Burger KingPosted: Jun 19, 2013 - 23:48
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I can't stop posting pictures of poop, what the fuck is wrong with me?

Level: 5
CS Original
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wikipedia calls TZM & TVP cults May.6.2010 37 55

http://web.archive.org/web/20110923044152/http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/05/06/wikipedia-calls-tzm-tvp-cults/


This is a new article to cover ground already covered by the TVP and TZM cults assorted wikipedia pages. Its flagrantly an attempt to promote themselves at the expense of wikipedia article space.

Further more the contents of this article are simply taken from a speech by Peter Joseph Merola, and are not encyclopedic nor noteworthy. [discussing TVP's/TZM's previous attempts to promote themselves on wikipedia]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource-based_economy



It seems that wikipedia has finally cottoned on to the shameless self promoting tactics of TZM and TVP in regards to resource based economics and their claims to be the originators of the idea.

And comically all the evidence the writer for the article provides is the following:


References

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kb&task=article&article=1&Itemid=100091

* The Venus Project - Official Website
* The Zeitgeist Movement - Official Website
* The Zeitgeist Movement Official YouTube Channel


thats all they offer up as evidence. hahaha




enjoy.

Can also be discussed here:

http://conspiracyscience.com/forums/topic/rbe-on-tow

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Anticultist blog comments


It looks like you, Grits and CONSPI are being accused spreading disinformation again:
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=233&id=253738#255127
Too funny.
BranManFloMore said this on May 6, 2010 at 2:40 pm | Reply

Croatdude [probable aka John Bale and various other fake accounts he made [psycho] from ZM FB] said: I don't like the article on Wikipedia about the "RBE" because it is written that TZM and TVP are "cults" and PJ's last name is shown. I suspect that it is the work of Anticultist, someone from CS or even that sicko Plautus Satire...
Anyways I really don't know what should we do in this situation, ignore or do something?
p.s. It's sad that there are people out there that have nothing better to do than to spread lies and disinformation. Sad...
My two cents..
hahaha that guys paranoid !
Does he think that these are the only people who consider them a cult ?
Sheesh theres hundreds if not thousands of people who think this, he could of chosen any name at random and would of been closer to the truth.
Still let me clear it up here, it was not me. I just noticed it from a post on con sci.
anticultist said this on May 6, 2010 at 2:49 pm | Reply

Yeah, I read it that thread - it wasn't you alright.
"Does he think that these are the only people who consider them a cult?"
They have no clue.
BranManFloMore said this on May 6, 2010 at 2:52 pm

pfffft they soon scarpered over to fix that didnt they !
anticultist said this on May 7, 2010 at 12:48 am | Reply

I don't know what's going on over there anymore to tell you the truth.
BranManFloMore said this on May 7, 2010 at 1:02 am | Reply

that was me.
what, you guys didn't run over back and change it back? what kind of team mates are ya?
lol
prometheuspan said this on May 7, 2010 at 3:39 am | Reply

haha the one person they didnt even accuse !!
anticultist said this on May 7, 2010 at 3:43 am | Reply

Priceless.
BranManFloMore said this on May 7, 2010 at 4:36 am | Reply

they don't dare speak my name.
I'm even hotter than anti cultist right now.
btw...
brenton got banned today...
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/brentoneccles
its the right moment to break him free from the cults influence.
:)
prometheuspan said this on May 7, 2010 at 8:13 am | Reply

great news :)
Reason banned:
Repeated ad hominem attacks, threatening to "expose private information" in an attempt to intimidate moderators from banning him, publicly stating plans to leave to movement, general trolling activity in coordination with third party web sites
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=231&id=254048&limit=10&limitstart=40
dont bother him pan, hes not interested right now.
Leave him cool off and do his own thing.
anticultist said this on May 7, 2010 at 11:06 am | Reply

I so want to know what the private information is. But yeah, lets give him another break. I can relate a great deal with him. I'm starting to see it now.
BranManFloMore said this on May 7, 2010 at 4:46 pm

Prometheuspan says on facebook: "The venus project is an evil cult, thats all it is."
i like the "evil" part he says. Lol you could have just said "they are the evil cult trying to take over ze world!"
Anyway whatever you guys do, from making blogs against TZM to trolling on TZM forum to writing fake information on wikipedia, it doesn't mean a damn thing, can't you understand, you can't stop us, we are growing fastly and are recognized all around the world. So just pick your part of TZM and TVP that you don't like, "debunk" the shit out of it, but know that you aren't doing anything at all. Actually you're just spreading the word for the Movement.
Just my two cents.
Peace
p.s. Who the heck is John Bale?
Croatdude said this on May 7, 2010 at 4:44 pm | Reply

yep were doing all the picking stuff apart and we will continue.
Its hardly spreading the word of zeitgeist if you consider the people who read this and post here are getting the view that zeitgeist is a piece of turd and not worth bothering with.
Jon Bale hes one of your movements psychopathic zealot members, if you aren't him you have nothing to worry about.
anticultist said this on May 7, 2010 at 5:44 pm | Reply

PS
Just checked your IP and it matches perfectly with John Bales, so youre from the same area as him funnily enough, makes sense when you look at your little trolly ways as well.
By the way hows the private messages to prometheus and the beyond zeitgeist crew going Ivan ?
john bale/Steve O'connor/emillie stimpson/Jerremy Shane/Ivan Grozni/Paul anticultist Jones [yes a fake paul jones account too ! what a complete sick individual] all the facebook accounts I know of made and posted with in the zeitgeist movement facebook forum. Check this characters posts out over there hes a total lunatic, we even have death threats saved he sent to people.
anticultist said this on May 7, 2010 at 6:39 pm | Reply

I just noticed this thread:
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=5&id=253355
I guess some TZM folks want to reach out to Hugo Chavez on Twitter. But guess who controls the main TWITTER account for TZM? You guessed it - BrentonEccles.
Oh man...
Now what would they do?:
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=234&id=161192#165050
BranManFloMore said this on May 8, 2010 at 6:56 am | Reply

I hope that ZM does get in touch and affiliate with him, because hes becoming a dictator in his own country and it will add even more credence to the fact TZM have no clue what they're doing.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/hugochavez/view/
And before any dickhead suggests I watch the revolution will not be televised, Ive seen it, and that was made years ago the above is more recent.
anticultist said this on May 8, 2010 at 12:50 pm | Reply

lol. I love it when the best that they can come up with is third rate ad hominems. You want to talk about my appearance? what? on youtube? for test videos i did before i decided it was too early to
use that medium? lol
I love this crap. As Shakespeare once said, "Me thinks the lady doth protest too much."
Nothing like a third rate ad hominem from a coked up parrot to demonstrate to more objective observers who the moron is and just how little ammo there is to find against me.
"Funny membership they have for a peaceful world changing movement."
lol.
They are adept at being (embodying) the problem they want to change instead of the change they wish to see.
prometheuspan said this on June 11, 2010 at 11:20 pm | Reply

btw, that whole article was deleted thanks to my due diligence.
score one for team pan.
prometheuspan said this on June 11, 2010 at 11:21 pm | Reply

The Pan Clan don't play. I'm still keeping that updated by the way. Don't let the haters get to you.
BranManFloMore said this on June 13, 2010 at 4:46 am | Reply

[...] via Zeitgeist is a mind heist - venus project is a scam ?. [...]
Wikipedia calls TZM and TVP 'Cults '! « Peace & Nonviolence Project said this on July 19, 2010 at 6:30 pm | Reply

[...] wikipedia calls TZM & TVP cults [...]
Zeitgeist Blogs: Zeitgeist is a Mind Heist « Zeitgeist Movement Exposed said this on November 10, 2010 at 9:10 pm | Reply

[...] wikipedia calls TZM & TVP cults [...]
Zeitgeist Blogs: Zeitgeist is a Mind Heist « Zeitgeist Movement Exposed said this on November 10, 2010 at 9:11 pm | Reply

same lunatic :)
Funny membership they have for a peaceful world changing movement.
anticultist said this on June 1, 2010 at 2:57 pm | Reply




Click to get back to topic starter
#76 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
The Burger KingPosted: Jun 19, 2013 - 23:56
(0)
 

I can't stop posting pictures of poop, what the fuck is wrong with me?

Level: 5
CS Original
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Peter Joseph Merola misquoting as usual May.7.2010 38 56

http://web.archive.org/web/20110907010108/http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/05/07/peter-merola-misquoting-as-usual/

Before we go ahead and thrash his inability to check his sources lets look at the arrogance of this man posting this below:



Hmmmmmmmm.... Is peter implying that the work he is doing for the world is going to make him immortal ? Are we talking hugely misplaced levels of ego here? Peter Merola will be in the annals of history for his work on the three conspiracy movies he has done, and will be remembered as what exactly ? An immortal hero ?

Taken from here: http://zday2010.org/templates/zday2010_splashpage/images/FIRST_PAGE/quote.jpg

Peter Merola uses the above as his signature, funny though for a guy who checks his sources thoroughly he doesnt manage to even get the quote in his signature right.

Albert Pine? who is Albert Pine ?

Lets see shall we ?

Sky has come to the rescue and shown it was Albert Pike... see his post below

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Anticultist blog comments



Well, I can't say much here. And thanks for sharing.
I find his current signature interesting as well:
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=60&id=246777&limit=10&limitstart=50
(Don't worry, I print screened in case he tries to edit it)
Here it is:
"A human being is a part of the whole...He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separate from the rest - a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison...Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison - Albert Einstein, 1972″
But lets read the whole quote:
http://www.special-dictionary.com/quotes/authors/a/albert_einstein/96271.htm
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'universe,' a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separate from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
Why does he takes bits out of the original quotes he picks? It makes you wonder.
And yeah, 1972?
He came back to life with this quote back in 1972? When he passed away in...you guessed it - 1955:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/april/18/newsid_3721000/3721783.stm
So do any of these quotes mean anything to Peter Joseph? Seriously? Are these just ways to advertise the movement? Man... It just gets depressing.
Oh yeah, that original quote is from 1954 - which would make sense:
http://www.stumbleupon.com/stumbler/flyingrose/review/8711852
Oh Boy!
BranManFloMore said this on May 7, 2010 at 1:00 am | Reply

hahaha so lets see he got two of his signatures wrong consecutively.
He got the author wrong on one.
He misquoted and paraphrased Einstein, as well as got the decade wrong ? !
In light of this one has to ask, Peter how reliable is the rest of your research ?
anticultist said this on May 7, 2010 at 1:11 am | Reply

Him and his Alberts.
BranManFloMore said this on May 7, 2010 at 2:07 am | Reply

hahaha
17 years after Alberts death man !
I am still laughing about that
anticultist said this on May 7, 2010 at 2:55 am

Speaking of Alberts
Its funny what hes done is just open up a random search page for quotes and started at A and gone no farther.
"Yep that'll do a bit of editing, sounds like something I would say, add a date job done"
And about that Albert Pine thing its not just a case of him mispelling it because its mispelt all over the internet, he just dint check it at all.
http://thinkexist.com/quotes/albert_pine/
http://www.famous-quotes-and-quotations.com/albert_pine.html
http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Albert_Pine/
anticultist said this on May 7, 2010 at 3:26 am

It was Albert Pike who said it, not Albert Pine or Albert Paine. Albert Pike is the Freemason guy who is most famous for writing the book "Morals and Dogma"
The real quote:
"What we have done for ourselves alone, dies with us; what we have done for others and the world, remains and is immortal"
From the book: "Ex Corde Locutiones: Words from the Heart Spoken of His Dead Brethren"
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PTpRwZ1yEWwC&pg=PA11&dq=%22What+we+have+done+for+ourselves+alone%22&client=firefox-a#v=onepage&q=%22What%20we%20have%20done%20for%20ourselves%20alone%22&f=false
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091102160830AAJzvwN
Sky said this on May 7, 2010 at 3:20 am | Reply

ah well there you go I was wrong too hahaha
Thanks sky.
anticultist said this on May 7, 2010 at 3:27 am | Reply

I found another Albert mix up. In the first Zeitgeist movie, one of the quotes at the end starts out "Now, in our culture we've been trained for individual differences to stand out..". The movie transcript credits it to "Richard Albert" but his name is really Richard Alpert.
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/transcript.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Alpert
What is more interesting is in the original interview, Alpert is talking about his experiences taking LSD, but Peter Joseph edited out words like "psychedelic", completely changing the meaning so that it sounds like Alpert is talking about life or something.

"So do any of these quotes mean anything to Peter Joseph? Seriously? Are these just ways to advertise the movement?"
It seems so, we might as well just edit together our own quotes any way we like, just like Peter:
"I ...am a ...complete ...fraud." -Peter Joseph
Sky said this on May 7, 2010 at 3:51 am | Reply

"It seems so, we might as well just edit together our own quotes any way we like, just like Peter:
"I ...am a ...complete ...fraud." -Peter Joseph"
That made my day.
BranManFloMore said this on May 7, 2010 at 4:31 am | Reply

yes the editing can be verified here:

hah talking about LSD and tripping, but hes made it sound like its talking about something else. Thats just plain quote mining and editing the context.
anticultist said this on May 8, 2010 at 12:44 pm | Reply

And now I know where he got the whole "there is no they" statement from too, it's that video above your post (4:15):
http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.ca/forum/everything-else/there-no-they-by-peter-joseph-january-2009-t-127.html
Alpert also mentions Buckminster Fuller (3:05). I can't help but think that he (Peter Joseph) knew about Buck before discovering Jacque Fresco.
Thanks for sharing the info Sky.
BranManFloMore said this on May 8, 2010 at 1:02 pm

sheesh 3 Albert mistakes !
Im cracking up laughing here
If ever he interviews an Albert you just know theres going to be a ton of errors
anticultist said this on May 7, 2010 at 3:54 am | Reply

What the ALBERT is going on here?
BranManFloMore said this on May 7, 2010 at 4:17 am | Reply

If another Albert error pops up I think I will fall off my chair and be unable to get back up.
anticultist said this on May 7, 2010 at 4:29 am

Wait now you're analyzing his signature? WTF?! What's it going to be next, every word he says? oh wait you're already doing that...
And I see nothing wrong with Albert Pike quote, I will translate it to you mentally ill idiots here in a simple language, the quotes goes like this: "what you do for yourself isn't as great as what you do for the society".
There you have it. And any normal guest to this blog will see how Paul Jones (anticultist) turns people's words against them. This is a great example of that.
Watching Paul writing such nonsense on his blog and laughing at these muppets commenting is pricelles. :D
94.253.137.65
Croatdude said this on May 7, 2010 at 5:02 pm | Reply

Hey you are one of those freaks who religiously defends your guru, nice work son.
I suppose you didnt notice how shit his research was, did that fact go over your little backwards head ?
But that doesnt matter to you clowns, you'll swallow any old shit he shovels down your throat
anticultist said this on May 7, 2010 at 5:46 pm | Reply

p.s. I've noticed how you mention PJ's surname a lot...let me ask you, is his surname important? I think that everyone on this blog or everyone who will ever visit this blog will know who are you talking about if you just say "Peter Joseph". Now you may say that he is a leader of a huge social movement so his name must be known. Well let me ask you this, if you created a movie that was seen by 40 million people and got threats from people who want to hurt you and your family, would you hide your surname? Would you feel comfortable if some douchebag called you by your surname on his blog? Eh Paul Jones? If you like to show info about people, so much how about we show info about you? like this ...http://anticultist.wordpress.com
What's up lil alien loving boy? Not comfortable anymore when it's your head on the line?
94.253.137.65
Croatdude said this on May 7, 2010 at 5:09 pm | Reply

Yeah im fine with it keep it coming son, and some douchebag did call me by name on his blog and also has done here namely you little man :)
Lets see.. how many death threats has peter Joseph Merola had from people reading this blog about him ?
probably zero, and probably wont ever get any because of it either.
How many did he have because of his anti religious bigotry, and his allowance of it on his forum ?
Probably loads, and to be fair he brought it all on himself, I didnt make him become a douchebag to world religions he did that perfectly all on his own.
Likewise your conclusions about alien loving are fucking outstandingly funny, even I am laughing at how retarded a claim it is. But yeah keep those classic claims coming you just make yourself look like an idiot, and make your movement look even more fucking foolish.
I think its really funny that little old me can have such a huge impact on your so called powerful movement, to me you just look like a bunch of weak ass internet punks.
anticultist said this on May 7, 2010 at 5:59 pm | Reply

Peter Merola is qoute/text mining glad we debunked his ass! Conspiracy Science Team FTW!
Billll said this on May 8, 2010 at 10:53 pm | Reply

Here is a bit of my own misquoting:
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/6007/zeitgeistbannercopy.jpg
anticultist said this on May 9, 2010 at 3:30 am | Reply

I hope RBEF has a good laugh while that's in signature there.
Oh wait...
So far so good:
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=389&t=2196
Oh yeah.
BranManFloMore said this on May 9, 2010 at 4:03 am | Reply

In that video with Alpert did have a lot of meaning to the movement however it doesnt do the three muppets any favours once it deals about LSD.Ah yes lets solve all the worlds problems with take a few rounds of LSD and live in the magical land of Frescos model.Seriously that quote was not a good marketing gimmick as it doesnt deviate them from the space hippy cult image.
Shane Nolan said this on May 9, 2010 at 7:51 pm | Reply

In fact it enforces they are a watered down replica of the hippy movement of the 60′s. They may as well be quoting Ken Kesey, Albert Hoffman and Timothy Leary as viable persons that represent them.
anticultist said this on May 9, 2010 at 8:13 pm | Reply

Ok, so he edits his signature for length and accidentally copied the wrong date, woop-de-fucking-do. A misplaced level of ego? What the fuck are you talking about, PJ has said that we doesn't wish to be the head of TZM and wishes people would think for themselves instead of following him numerous times. You see, typically what happens when you create a virtual utopia is that people will know who you are, what a fucking surprise. Everyone is looking to make their imprint on history to some degree. Of course, if you actually thought for a second, you would realize that the quote is a comparison between selfishness and selflessness, not a declaration of wanting to make it into a history book. And you apparently don't see the hypocritical stupidity in attempting to shit all over PJ for getting a date wrong as a result of "no research" and then typing "who's Albert Pine?" obviously not knowing because you did no research. The quote appears as a quote by both Albert Pine and Albert Pike: http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/4375.html
Are you really this desperate to shit on everything Peter does?
Gavin said this on May 13, 2010 at 8:52 pm | Reply

I already knew it was a wrong quote Gavin you fucking dipshit thats why I made the post.
And I knew his einstein post was wrong, again why I made the post.
Peter is a grade A pseudo intellect Gavin, whether you want to believe it or not his research methods are crap. He has proven time and again that he gets things wrong and makes shit up to fit his agenda and refuses to withdraw and corect his imistakes. His small group of admin are just as bad, and yeah I couldnt give a shit about your silly little movement because its saving noone. In fact its doesnt even have the ability to save itself, so since you're here allow me to tell you a few things.
1: I could not give a fuck about your precious movement.
2: I have no respect for Peter as an academic [perhaps a little bit as a human being, when he acts like one]
3: You are just as much a fuck up for believing his shit
4: You are posting on here talking at me as if you think you know who I am and what I know
5: I know as much as any of your groups admin about your movement
6: Your emotional protectionism of your movement means nothing to me
I also love the way you interpret the quote your own way and say this is what it means, as if there is only one way to interpret anything. Funny because if that was the case you would not be disagreeing with me.
So in short Gavin suck a tail pipe.
anticultist said this on May 14, 2010 at 6:16 am | Reply

Desperate? No.
He could have picked a shorter quote from someone else if the signature space was the issue or have done a graphic signature to add in the whole quote. Either way, it's not a good look period. For someone that comes off as a leader, director, whatever title he wants to give himself - it's still embarrassing regardless. He may have declared himself not a leader, but when the 3rd film comes out - they will look at him as such and starstrucked - I assure you. There's no excuse for those slip ups in his signature. At all. It was a clear paste and copy job, you can try to define the quote for him all you want, but you're just wasting your time. And if he's getting quotes wrong on this level, one can only question his research in both films. All I see here is critical thinking and alternative views. You can throw your profanity around all you want, but it doesn't help your case. All I see is a bruised ego.
BranManFloMore said this on May 14, 2010 at 6:26 am | Reply

"The quote appears as a quote by both Albert Pine and Albert Pike"
There is no Albert Pine, if you search his name, the only thing that comes up is that one quote with no source. Someone just spelled Albert Pikes name wrong when quoting him once, and a bunch of other websites copied the mistake. Those "quotation page" type websites are garbage, the quotes are wrong or just made up half the time. I think that people who surf those site looking for quotes to use are moronic. Is Albert Pine some great philosopher whose writing has meaning to Peter? No, he has never read a Albert Pine book because Pine doesn't exist and Peter just spent five minutes looking for a quote that would make him look really cool having it in his post, just like editing Richard Alpert to make him say whatever he wants. Might as well just take a shit on the grave of the real person who wrote the quote.
Sky said this on May 14, 2010 at 8:22 pm
I noticed Peter Joseph took off the year from his Albert Einstein quote, he must be paying attention to us:
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=3&id=262763&limit=10&limitstart=10#263484
BranManFloMore said this on June 5, 2010 at 3:17 am | Reply

Man, you all sure do seem to hang on Peter Joseph and his movie a lot to think he is sorry as you try to make him out to be. Do you fear him? Are you jealous? Why do you seem to hang on him like a 9 year old with a crush? What he says connot be disproven about religion. That's why christians try to bash him so much. Maybe christians just need to go ahead and admit the fact that their religion is just baloney. But we can all read into that by the bashing and hating you try to do on Peter. If it was all just nonsense, his name wouldn't need to be mentioned, now would it?
Jason W said this on June 14, 2010 at 4:53 pm | Reply

While you may want to associate childishness with our methods and actions you are free to do so, but you are clearly way off the mark.
Peter fucks all his research up, uses other peoples work for his movies, then states the rrors in it are intentional and to promote critical thinking. He said this recently on his own forum.
Now he is hiring people to fix his poor research for his zeitgeist movie 1 update. So you say we are wrong, yet he himself is absolutely wrong and has been debunked thoroughly on various websites. This includes a lot of the religion part Acharya S has been debunked, his 911 material has completely debunked, and his ideas about the financial system IE money mechanics has been disputed if not debunked.
So when it comes to him misquoting people, getting dates wrong, saying Albert Einstein said this when he was dead, Albert Pine said this when he does not even exist...who is the dipshit [rhetorical question]
Of course the answer is him.
anticultist said this on June 14, 2010 at 6:06 pm | Reply

There have been thousands of movies, documentaries, audios, videos, comments, and whatever else over the past 2 thousand years over the same things. Mainly the religion part. What makes Peter so different? Why does he have to have everything right and not make any mistakes? It wasn't released in the theaters. His veiws, as is everyone elses on religion, is taken from other people's views, because these views have been around for centuries. Yet somehow he is different. Christians fear his truth. And the rest of you who are not christians, but still adamantly put him down, look ridiculous. He has the freedom to say what he wants. You people that have been indoctrinized your whole life think that no conspiracy theory ever exists. Everything is exactly as we've been brainwashed to think it is right? The government tells us the whole truth and nothing but the truth. And christianity and the bible were not truly made for mind control of the masses. You're anthropomorphic god does not exist.
Jason W said this on June 14, 2010 at 5:17 pm | Reply

Because he is starting a global movement to effect peoples lives based on flawed research, faulty statements, incorrect facts and lies. He will always and should always be scrutinised for that alone.
His freedom of speech is not contested, his speech is contested, try and understand the difference if you can manage.
Everyone has been indioctrinated, but some of us who know do not need a ton of BS conspiracy theories to prove it as shock factors. A simple study of psychology and sociology will reveal this to even the dumbest of people. Shit even morons who watch television all day deep down know they are being sold and indoctrinated whether you want to believe it or not.
And why are you asking those stupid questions, we do not even believe Peter Merola, what in the world makes you think we believe the government too ?
anticultist said this on June 14, 2010 at 6:12 pm | Reply

I just don't see the sense in getting all riled up over this. The TZM, or whatever it is, is hype for the moment. Nothing will come of it. In 6 months, nobody will even remember it. I just think too much hype is behind something that has been said many times. Do you really think this movement is going to make any kind of difference? And if it does, would that necessarily be bad? I know he has a lot of theories, but so do a lot of people. They may not be right, be they're not exactly flat out lies. And if they are, so what. People will believe what they want anyway. They're will be many more movies after this one. And I don't think this movement is going to change anything anyway. It just seems pointless.
Jason W. said this on June 15, 2010 at 2:36 am | Reply

You know what Jason i agree with you on a lot of what you said, but I have to correct you on one thing.
We are not getting riled up, we are just addressing the problems we have personally and 2′nd hand encountered, as well as redressing wrongs and pointing out flaws.
I know it can easily percieved as us being the bad guys because we are presenting a negative and counter claim but I promise you, the people involved in this are not hateful people. We are just folks being folks you know ?
anticultist said this on June 15, 2010 at 2:40 am | Reply

Just some folks indeed.
BranManFloMore said this on June 15, 2010 at 7:10 am

I hear ya anticultis. I understand. Maybe I would understand more, but I haven't even looked into the movement thing. Wasn't that interested. I liked the movie, especially the religion part. But thought the movement part to be a joke. Are your negative views more leaning towards the religion part, or the government conspiracy part? Or both? I don't put much into the govt part other than the fact that we'll never know how much we're being duped. I liked the way the religion part was put together. Even though a lot of his suggestions may not be exactly right, they are plausible. I enjoyed his views.
Jason W. said this on June 15, 2010 at 3:17 am | Reply

tbh I think most the movie is made up, there are some good points made in it and some oif its underlying motivations are fine. I am not into the whole blame the government thing or be paranoid for your life theyre out to get you crap.
This blogs more about our concerns with the movement and its members as well as problems with the venus project. The movie has been fuly covered everywhere else.
anticultist said this on June 15, 2010 at 12:45 pm | Reply

this whole effor by you and your commrades makes me sad. Let's support those that are trying to "solve" problems instead of creating more. Relax.
mario said this on June 16, 2010 at 6:45 am | Reply

We are here to present a case that is needed, relaxing is always happening mario.
anticultist said this on June 16, 2010 at 12:06 pm | Reply

MC Sleuth,
Then condense this information, take out the emotion and qualify your reasoning(aside from the misquotes and $2 entrance hustles in the 80′s). Or...? grab a brew and relax while we get busy. I am 36, i have a degree own my own companies and i am not an idealistic college kid. I do believe in trying something new if something old is broken. I also have NO FEAR. I believe we should all actualize change each and every way possible FAST. Or..? grab a brew and sit it on down. This blog is not "acualizing" anything. It is a big long winded complaint statement that looks as though it were finished some time around 4am. Relax. Get some sleep.
Seriously is considering an alternative to impending disaster that bad? I wouldn't give a shit who came up on a few bucks as long as the wider message gets spread. We need to fix our own problems.
mario said this on June 16, 2010 at 4:34 pm | Reply

I have a degree and further post graduate qualifications and education, I own my own business and work for various other companies too.
Telling me to relax and get some sleep hardly counters any of the claims made in it, in fact it only makes you look like a pompous twit attempting to step above the claims and make out like they are fantasy.
If you had any reasonable counter evidence you would present it and have no need to drop your silly quips on the blog.
And what impending disasters are you talking about? If you are talking economic collapse you're acting on armageddonist conspiracy theory rather than any actual economic facts and data. Do you think that the system will just cease to exist and money will dissapear in one day because of a collapse?
And if you think making an old fart and his girlfriend rich because they talk anecdotes and make people feel all warm and fuzzy about the future is a relevant cause go at it. Personally I prefer real life causes and real life people who deal with problems and solutions in the now that are based in facts and scientific evidences. These are the people who are doing the real changes, Jacque Fresco, Peter Merola have achieved nothing but talk and acruing a membership who spout their rhetoric. There are no scientific studies of their own, there are no actions they have done to save any lives, feed any people, house and clothe anyone, they are just making movies and lectures and being paid for it. Great call me when you do something of substance.
anticultist said this on June 16, 2010 at 4:43 pm | Reply

"Seriously is considering an alternative to impending disaster that bad?"
No, but thats not what TVP is, it is merely and only one more of the false mindfuck dead ends that lead back into impending disaster. And in fact, Jaques has said no RBE until after collapse.
TVP/ TZM is not a way to avert disaster, it is merely only one more obstacle I have to get around to avert disaster.
"I wouldn't give a shit who came up on a few bucks as long as the wider message gets spread. We need to fix our own problems."
Thats a fine idea, and thats why you should click on my name and get busy.
prometheuspan said this on June 16, 2010 at 10:23 pm | Reply

"And what impending disasters are you talking about? If you are talking economic collapse you're acting on armageddonist conspiracy theory rather than any actual economic facts and data."
Untrue, nobody seems to have introduced you to the hockey stick shaped bell curve. For any of twenty reasons this civilization must fail. Peak oil was reached in 2004-2005. If we don't transition over to a new energy economy our civilization must fail.
More importantly- both global warming and acidification of the oceans will self destruct our ecology if we don't stop polluting.
there are 20 different doomsday clocks ticking, all of them can be proven via science fact.
The problem with TVM is that it is only perpetuating and complicating the problems- it isn't doing anything about the problems or anything real to make a new world.
Its an obstacle to real change not a participant or driver of it.
Do you think that the system will just cease to exist and money will dissapear in one day because of a collapse?
prometheuspan said this on June 16, 2010 at 10:27 pm | Reply

I have heard of bell curves and hockey sticks, but it does not mean were all going to die tomorrow or next week, or in 2012. You do realise that species have been surviving through weather changes for aeons ?
Humanity as it is has been around for about 100,000 years or so at least when it formulated some form of higher reasoning.
Two words for you, ice ages...we survived them because we are resourceful.
I personally dont think that the species is completely buggered and will survive in small resourceful pockets if such things were thrown at us by nature.
But an economic collapse is simply just another problem of sociological issues we will have to overcome should it arise. I dont consider it to be on the cards with economic resistance and management in place from the people who run things and want to keep the system in continuation.
And anyway if Earth decides to shake us off and wipe us out, would it be such a bad thing for the planet ? Earth would still turn and it would heal pretty damn quick without us on it.
anticultist said this on June 16, 2010 at 11:02 pm | Reply

"this whole effor by you and your commrades makes me sad. Let's support those that are trying to "solve" problems instead of creating more. Relax."
They aren't trying to solve problems, they are in every meaningful way asking us to send money and wait for collapse and doing nothing to actually solve problems.
They are diabolizing and lying about people who are trying to solve the problems. They are not problem solvers, not even remotely.
I was banned from their site for trying to address why this is so,
and for pointing out that VTV was attacking people not moderating and thus breaking the rules.
TVP/TZM has nothing at all for real problem solving process.
I on the other hand have easily ten times more answers than they do and actual problem solving process and transition plan that could work.
prometheuspan said this on June 16, 2010 at 10:30 pm | Reply

"Man, you all sure do seem to hang on Peter Joseph and his movie a lot to think he is sorry as you try to make him out to be. Do you fear him? Are you jealous?"
No, why would i fear him? Jelous? You mean because hes got a cult of personality and i don't? no.
"Why do you seem to hang on him like a 9 year old with a crush?"
his cult is dangerous and counter productive and is an obstacle to my real work of saving the humans.
"What he says connot be disproven about religion."
Actually, as an atheist and a person whos bothered to study world religions, while the gist of the idea is right, that actual details he used to pull it together are all pathetically wrong,
And that can be easily proven by real religious scholars.
"That's why christians try to bash him so much. Maybe christians just need to go ahead and admit the fact that their religion is just baloney."
Thats a fine idea, but PJs version of atheism is just an anti christian denomination, and its just as much baloney as christianity is.
prometheuspan said this on June 16, 2010 at 10:36 pm | Reply

"I have heard of bell curves and hockey sticks, but it does not mean were all going to die tomorrow or next week, or in 2012."
I'd target 2020 to start seeing millions of people dead...
2050 for billions.
2075 for mad max and "the road" and "book of eli" etc.
"You do realise that species have been surviving through weather changes for aeons ?"
Yes, but we haven't had supersonic winds on this planet since at least the early formation of the atmosphere.
And getting meters of rain per evening on the coasts isn't weather as we think of it either.
"Humanity as it is has been around for about 100,000 years or so at least when it formulated some form of higher reasoning."
yes. Long enough to see some serious climate shifting.
"Two words for you, ice ages...we survived them because we are resourceful."
The entire ecosystem didn't collapse.
"I personally dont think that the species is completely buggered and will survive in small resourceful pockets if such things were thrown at us by nature."
At least into say 2100, but then you have to worry about how things evolve, the plagues that we will breed, the new insect problem, ...
"But an economic collapse is simply just another problem of sociological issues we will have to overcome should it arise."
It would be well actually for the economy to collapse fewer people would die then ecological collapse.
" I dont consider it to be on the cards with economic resistance and management in place from the people who run things and want to keep the system in continuation."
hmmm...
"And anyway if Earth decides to shake us off and wipe us out, would it be such a bad thing for the planet ?"
Over all, no, from a truly macro perspective giving Earth another chance to evolve better life forms isn't actually that bad of a deal.
"Earth would still turn and it would heal pretty damn quick without us on it."
About ten thousand years and she will re-sequester the carbon in ice, then it will return back to about like we have now.
prometheuspan said this on June 16, 2010 at 11:55 pm | Reply

And 10,000 years is the blink of an eye in geological standards.
I am still dubious as to the conditions that will arise due to global warming, but time will tell.
While I do agree with your point that an economic collapse is far kinder than a total environmental collapse.
But still I prefer to reserve judgement and stay clear of doomsday prophecising out of sensibility and not really knowing the future even from data collecting and EDWin type simulated runs.
Anyway we are really off track here ! :D
anticultist said this on June 17, 2010 at 12:04 am | Reply

"TVP/TZM has nothing at all for real problem solving process.
I on the other hand have easily ten times more answers than they do and actual problem solving process and transition plan that could work."-------------
Are you accepting monetary donations?
Jason W. said this on June 17, 2010 at 12:33 am | Reply

"People in the future will look back at the Zeitgeist Movement now and gawk how primitive and immature it was."
- Former Moderator
BranManFloMore said this on June 17, 2010 at 12:42 am | Reply

If these things are way off about religion, can you point me to something that is more truthful? I am understanding more where you are coming from after reading a lot of these posts. I would like to see some other worthwhile material to view though.
Jason W. said this on June 17, 2010 at 12:43 am | Reply

Hi Jason have you read the conspiracy science blog about the zeitgeist movies ?
Its quite lengthy but addresses some of the finer points they bring up.
http://conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/
you can check each section on the left
anticultist said this on June 17, 2010 at 1:00 am | Reply

"Are you accepting monetary donations?"
Not yet. But I am certainly willing to start..lol
"If these things are way off about religion, can you point me to something that is more truthful? "
Sure. Yeshua ben yeoseph was mixed with dionYSIUS, not Horus, and not PJs list of gods. YSIUS became JSIUS became "Jesus".
The myths ended up with bits from solar deities and the myths are accidentally solar for carrying things over, but nobody thought of
"Jesus" as a solar deity- they were well away from that.
Two examples. PJs presentation was right in the general gist of it and off by a wide margin for actual details.
The question of a historical "Jesus" is long settled. There never was one. There was absolutely a historical Yeshua on whom the myths are based.
Which on the other hand means that there was a historical person.
Its just that the NAME we use is nothing but a discombobulated roman myth.
We could go on and on, but it makes little difference.
And thats a conversation if its to be had at all for another time and place. Preferably RBEFs new religions section.
I am understanding more where you are coming from after reading a lot of these posts. I would like to see some other worthwhile material to view though.
prometheuspan said this on June 17, 2010 at 4:13 am | Reply

Peter never cited 1974 as the date of origin for the previously mentioned quote by Albert Einstein, Albert Einstein was not alive during the 70′s, originally 1954. Curious how people will make facts appear real and than argue as if they have some basis on reality.
Ben said this on August 3, 2010 at 6:08 pm | Reply

You are lying, we have screengrabs of Peter having that as his date, and yeah we were the ones pointing out Albert was dead and his quote was wrong if you look above retard.
anticultist said this on August 3, 2010 at 9:20 pm | Reply

[...] Peter Joseph Merola misquoting as usual [...]
Zeitgeist Blogs: Zeitgeist is a Mind Heist « Zeitgeist Movement Exposed said this on November 10, 2010 at 9:11 pm | Reply

[...] Peter Joseph Merola misquoting as usual [...]
Zeitgeist Blogs: Zeitgeist is a Mind Heist « Zeitgeist Movement Exposed said this on November 10, 2010 at 9:12 pm | Reply

[...] For further reading on "Zeitgeist" and the Albert Pike quote: http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/05/07/peter-merola-misquoting-as-usual/ [...]
Zeitgeist Motto: Albert Pike « Zeitgeist Movement Exposed said this on January 19, 2011 at 5:48 am | Reply

[...] This is a valid quote as well, so far, no screw ups like previously. [...]
Zeitgeist: Moving Forward [Review] « The Zeitgeist Movement Examined said this on January 24, 2011 at 10:34 am | Reply




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The Burger KingPosted: Jun 20, 2013 - 00:05
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I can't stop posting pictures of poop, what the fuck is wrong with me?

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Anonymous are onto the Zeitgeist Movement May.16.2010 39 57

http://web.archive.org/web/20110831012535/http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/05/16/anonymous-are-onto-the-zeitgeist-movement/

Anonymous are onto the Zeitgeist Movement

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Anticultist blog comments


It seems these videos [that were in this reply] were removed, probably that TVPchallenge kid Brandy Hume crying about being publicly humiliated.
well there is always this below to view
http://tinyurl.com/3ys8odr
anticultist said this on May 16, 2010 at 10:49 pm | Reply

http://www.youtube.com/user/anon4allofus
anticultist said this on May 16, 2010 at 10:50 pm | Reply

rocking! seems like it all starts to fall all at one time eh?
I would appreciate the help of you and your patrons here in actually following Brans example and bringing me fully quoted evidence to these threads.
-------------
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=56&t=2233&p=12733#p12733
if you look at my resume area personal me page...
This weighs heavily on my mind. I don't want to be unfair as a judge, or to be mean in looking at a difficult problem.
For this reason, I am going to uberfocus for the next 6 weeks on only the positive and then return to review the evidence
that others place before me.
If you or anyone would like to carry on a simultaneous exploration of the best points and the positives, please do also start
this in the appropriate brainstorm area threads by importing all of the good things you can find to our site.
:D :ugeek:
This will be done in any case; Sooner or later as an aspie speed reader the worm will turn; I will get bored from all of being sysyphus and pushing the boulder of humanities evolutionary tipping point up that hill. And then me and many yellowdragons Talons will be roaming the hillsides with that boulder parked somewhere it won't roll.
And I will still be a speed reader, and an aspie, but i then i will have a months worth of being away from them...
and people will have delivered the evidence to the forum.
We will take all of the gems we can, and thats the important part of the brainstorm area; its gems.
In demonstration of right action, then, [quote]the plan is for me to deposit mine[/quote] first and let you guys add in anything TVP has
to say after.
Or, the other way. Ready; ? Set? Go? (I have a head start, but you may be able to find ten other people to help?)
;) :D
So, you have a one month reprieve in which to demonstrate that the knowledge and gems which TVP has collected is
superior in quality to the ones I have.
While I am way ahead and winning at this point here on this site, the fair warning is out. We will be openly cross comparing
my virtual 20 PhDs with their combined virtual 5 Bachelors, and, That will turn out about like you would expect.
:D :ugeek: :ugeek: :ugeek: :ugeek: :ugeek: :ugeek: :ugeek: :ugeek: :!:
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=389&t=2126
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=389&t=2131
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=389&t=2129
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=389&t=2127
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=389&t=2130
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=389&t=2166
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=389&t=2168
prometheuspan said this on May 17, 2010 at 12:17 am | Reply

Whoa....
BranManFloMore said this on May 17, 2010 at 12:26 am | Reply

whoa indeed !
I saw it linked and thought it was kinda funny that some anon peeps have been following whats happening.
anticultist said this on May 17, 2010 at 12:56 am | Reply

I'm not even slightly surprised.
Brentonq said this on May 17, 2010 at 3:19 am | Reply

I'm guessing that anon4allofus is just another former member of TZM, though it would be kind of funny if people showed up at the ZDay events wearing Guy Fawkes masks.
Sky said this on May 17, 2010 at 4:42 am | Reply

some ex members were in 4chan and anon members in the early days sky.
But you could be right.
anticultist said this on May 17, 2010 at 12:22 pm | Reply

http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&id=195818&catid=233#195818
Yup, Anonymous was there once.
BranManFloMore said this on May 17, 2010 at 2:09 pm

The only part of these videos that was notewothy was Peters admission of being anti-credentialism should certainly cast doubt in the minds of Douglas Mallette or any of the remaining scientists left in that lost cause. Although he does make a good pont listening to the moderators bicker and fight amongst each other can be funny at times.
Shane Nolan said this on May 17, 2010 at 1:34 pm | Reply

This video pretty much says it all peter merola is full of shit, Fresco and Roxannie are full of shit, Zeitgeist movement is full of shit, and venus project is full of shit!
If you have any credentials at all and disagree with TZM/TVP watch out!
Billll said this on May 17, 2010 at 4:05 pm | Reply

I was just thinking their may be a connection between "anon4allofus" and "4allofus" website as MattG the owner of http://www.4allofus.com/ and dislikes TZM/TVP very much. Seems a bit odd but could be a possibility.
Billll said this on May 17, 2010 at 6:16 pm | Reply

Probably best not to pin point any particular person just yet, anon is a pretty large group of individuals who do their own thing, but yeah thats a similar thing in the name.
anticultist said this on May 17, 2010 at 6:18 pm | Reply

yeah I don't think it is though it's just coincidence. To be honest I think the guy that was trying to incorporate anonymous into TZM I think he made the youtube but it's speculation. Indeed it could be anybody and yes anonymous is by far a huge very diverse group indeed.
Billll said this on May 17, 2010 at 6:23 pm | Reply

anticultist said this on May 17, 2010 at 8:37 pm | Reply
zeitgeist opposes Co$

codi dickers said this on May 19, 2010 at 12:05 am | Reply

Codies reply:

anticultist said this on May 19, 2010 at 12:39 am | Reply

I wonder how the Zeitgeist Movement's attempts to get a restraining order against Plautus Satire/Codie are going.
Sky said this on May 19, 2010 at 2:27 am

hahaha @ Codie dickers, I heard that was VTV posing as Plautus Satire in that video you have there lol. apparently VTV is also Lisa on CS forum as well, he's trying to troll it. much like I will assume the account and youtube is made by VTV as well... Totally fabricated evidence that's what TZM/TVP does.
Vanonymous said this on May 19, 2010 at 10:29 am | Reply

http://www.youtube.com/user/anonxposer
Another anon hahahaha
shit zeitgeist is in trouble !
anticultist said this on May 19, 2010 at 12:41 am | Reply

****Falls off his chair laughing****
BranManFloMore said this on May 19, 2010 at 12:49 am | Reply

OMG HALP when I saw Plautus Satires video I nearly died of laughter! As much as it bashes more proof, this is without any doubt evidence that Peter Merola did talk to Plautus through that e-mail.
I'm still laughing even hours later. TZM/TVP is a joke movement I hope TZM/TVP can stick arond to be the butt of the internet jokes, they are the conspiracy theorist joke land of them all.
Billll said this on May 19, 2010 at 12:56 am | Reply

billl and codie vickers thanks for promoting zeitgeist movement and venus project...oh and I don't know what you are trying to pull off here but those 2 accounts that represent themselves as anonymous are just billl and codie, not the whole anon community, so, fail...
I am a dick head said this on May 19, 2010 at 2:29 pm | Reply

you seem pretty sure about that.
But without evidence you're just guessing and hoping you are right.
let us know when you got evidence.
anticultist said this on May 19, 2010 at 3:40 pm | Reply

oh yes I did it you caught me! *clap* *clap* *clap* =P no to be honest I ave been pretty booked with work, learning, and programming, I only wish I could take credit...
Billll said this on May 19, 2010 at 6:45 pm | Reply

Yeah Im sure I will get the fucking blame at some point, and then they will start blaming conspiracy science, and then perhaps Brenton Eccles or Branman, and then maybe they will think of someone else who dissents. Its fucking nothing but clutching at straws.
anticultist said this on May 19, 2010 at 7:38 pm

Anonymous is trying to expose VTV now and yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if these sock-puppet accounts are his.
BranManFloMore said this on May 19, 2010 at 3:59 pm | Reply

hahah check this out from their utube account:
voiceofreason467 (1 day ago) posted:
The first video I saw known as Zeitology 101 of yours got me to actually thinking. But then I started watching your other video's where you essentially start going off on some random ad´╗┐ hominem's, faulty generalizations and even speculating accusations.
anons replies:


Talk about pwnd !!!
anticultist said this on May 19, 2010 at 6:00 pm | Reply

I found it amazing that he would build the nerve to even try to confront Anon on their channel when you see Keith Truth exposing him being a racist. Then he (Keith Truth) says that this is what the Zeitgeist Movement creates - I'm paraphrasing. And he may have a point if one tries to connect the dots with people like him and knowing Jacque Fresco's KKK background. And now I see why you think Jacque Fresco is a racist period. So, if someone accused TZM being racists, prejudice, whatever, people will see why such comments come about. And that Jay-Z song is dope son! Anon is not backing down, this is so amusing.
BranManFloMore said this on May 19, 2010 at 6:37 pm | Reply

LOL... I was a trained killer in U.S. Army Special Forces during the Viet Nam war, and now I am a complete pacifist who will not even defend myself, although I could easily enough. If anything in the past means anything about now, then everyone is fixed and unable to radically change with new information and experience. I don't care about those who are against the Zeitgeist Movement and Venus Project, I care for all of us regardless of present opinions, because we can all change and we will, like it or not. The world won't let us stay fixed, interior or exterior. The ZM and VP are, at the present moment, the only people who are trying to find alternatives to our ecologically dysfunctional world and the slaughter and mayhem which seems continuous somewhere on the planet.
Roan Carratu said this on May 30, 2010 at 3:43 am | Reply

I appreciate your conversion to pacifist, but let me lay it straight.
TVP/TZM are not the only option, far from it. They have hi jacked other ideas and movements and formulated their own agenda and are attempting to take sole credit.
They and their members frequently make this audacious claim that they are the only option, simply put this is Bullshit.
anticultist said this on May 30, 2010 at 8:51 am | Reply

BS indeed. When alternatives are brought up, they are most likely moved to the MISC. FORUMS so that it becomes discouraged within the movement to look at other things/projects that can help humanity. It's sad really, it's all a popularity contest with them. Nothing more.
BranManFloMore said this on May 30, 2010 at 9:37 pm

"The ZM and VP are, at the present moment, the only people who are trying to find alternatives to our ecologically dysfunctional world and the slaughter and mayhem which seems continuous somewhere on the planet."
The opposite. They are not only not the only people, they aren't doing that, they are only pretending to do that and in fact if you pay attention the word is to wait until AFTER COLLAPSE until doing anything in the real world.
In fact, they are not any kind of problem solvers and any idea you have that they are going to help the world is a delusion, and a misreading of their literature.
prometheuspan said this on June 17, 2010 at 4:40 am | Reply

hahaha get a load of this:
5- Anon Abusers
Anonymous is an internet meme, a "virtual person" or collective of people who have individually acted to expose what they view as bad things on the internet- such as child pornography, and claims of abuses by the Church of Scientology. For more information, see the wikipedia article.
Given the nature of the meme, it's possible for some people to use the Anonymous name for their own purposes, which is to some extent in keeping with the original intent. When it's done individually, it's not dishonest. But when a person implies that the group in general supports what they are doing, it's not necessarily so. That appears to be what MattG and Anticultist are going- using the Anonymous name to cover their attacks on members of the Zeitgeist Movement, and to imply by association that what they are doing is similar to, and supported by, the people who did the work on Scientology.
MattG
MattG identified himself as Matthew Greene. He revealed his name here:
http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=60&id=221833#221873
Searches reveal that he is a founding member of the 4allofus.com web site (mattg@4allofus.com). He also appears to be behind the anon4allofus sites such as:
http://anon4allofus.hopto.org/
Matt appears to live near Yorkshire, UK.
MattG reveals his name, location, and troubles with the UK legal system here:
http://www.rbose.org/logs/RBOSE/%23RBOSE.log.2010-05-28
One Response to "5- Anon Abusers"
1.
Ed V. says:
August 10, 2010 at 7:49 pm
Some great detective work. I strongly suspected as well that anti-cultist is involved with those anonymous YouTube users. The information, ideas, concepts, language is strikingly similar and sometimes they follow up on each other with videos/blog posts rather quickly. It's obvious there's a group out there actively trying to smear Peter Joseph and the Zeitgeist movement.
Reply
Honestly this is too funny, people were warning me I would be blamed for this, plus I dont even know who the hell Matt g is but i am willing to bet he is not too pleased these people are trashing him in public for something he most likely is not doing. Just a heads up for anyone interested in reading this, I am contacted by an anonymous email account in my own anticultist email. I still do not know who they are after talking for months with them, much in the same way I have no idea who Euripide Sneed is and i contact them in the same manner. Anonymous do use my material and do ask my opinions on things for their videos, so all the above is only because I know whats coming next regarding a few of their videos content. So there you go, oh and for the sake of the curious yes I have IP searched and they are from all over the place when they come in. This post is what is called bad speculation, but I dont mind being blamed for those videos as they are rather funny.
Taken from here:
http://rbose.wordpress.com/4-anon-abusers/
anticultist said this on August 11, 2010 at 1:19 am | Reply




Click to get back to topic starter
#78 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
The Burger KingPosted: Jun 20, 2013 - 00:15
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I can't stop posting pictures of poop, what the fuck is wrong with me?

Level: 5
CS Original
Click to get back to topic starter

So you don't think TVP and TZM are a cult June.6.2010 40 58

http://web.archive.org/web/20110831122046/http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/06/06/so-you-dont-think-tvp-and-tzm-are-a-cult/

I have been reading and referencing Dr Robert J Lifton since I first started my blog, it is him I can thank for everything I learned about cults [dangerous/personality & financial].
His points on thought reform are what actually got me to totally re evaluate the venus project and its activist arm. I used this in my first ever blog and used it as justification as to why I had taken the name anticultist and why I was under the suspicion that TZM was and is becoming more and more cultish.

So to my amazement and happiness anonymous have used Dr Lifton in a recent set of videos they have made. I think those of you who doubt the similarities or question if it is a cult should watch them and consider the points.
While you may not agree I think you can at least acknowledge there are certainly a lot of similarities.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/mfcPlHYH7wg

http://www.youtube.com/embed/q5cROQbbmns

http://www.youtube.com/embed/VUU0ixtuivg


Here are Liftons thought reform points in total to read:


DR. ROBERT J. LIFTON'S CRITERIA FOR THOUGHT REFORM

THOUGHT REFORM: THE PSYCHOLOGY OF TOTALISM CHAPTER 22 (Chapel Hill, 1989) THE FUTURE OF IMMORTALITY CHAPTER 15 (New York 1987)

Any ideology -- that is, any set of emotionally-charged convictions about men and his relationship to the natural or supernatural world -- may be carried by its adherents in a totalistic direction. But this is most likely to occur with those ideologies which are most sweeping in their content and most ambitious or messianic in their claim, whether a religious or political organization. And where totalism exists, a religion, or a political movement becomes little more than an exclusive cult.

Here you will find a set of criteria, eight psychological themes against which any environment may be judged. In combination, they create an atmosphere which may temporarily energize or exhilarate, but which at the same time pose the gravest of human threats.

(BRIEF OUTLINE)

1. MILIEU CONTROL

the most basic feature is the control of human communication withinand environment if the control is extremely intense, it becomesinternalized control -- an attempt to manage an individual's inner communication control over all a person sees, hears, reads, writes(information control) creates conflicts in respect to individual autonomy groups express this in several ways: Group process, isolation from
other people, psychological pressure, geographical distance or unavailable transportation, sometimes physical pressure often a sequence of events, such as seminars, lectures, group encounters, which become increasingly intense and increasingly isolated, making it extremely difficult- both physically and psychologically-for one to leave. sets up a sense of antagonism with the outside world; it's us against them
closely connected to the process of individual change (of personality)

2. MYSTICAL MANIPULATION (Planned spontaneity)

extensive personal manipulationseeks to promote specific patterns of behavior and emotion in such
a way that it appears to have arisen spontaneously from within theenvironment, while it actually has been orchestrated totalist leaders claim to be agents chosen by God, history, or some supernatural force, to carry out the mystical imperative the "principles" (God-centered or otherwise) can be put forcibly and claimed exclusively, so that the cult and its beliefs become the only true path to salvation (or enlightenment) the individual then develops the psychology of the pawn, and participates actively in the manipulation of others the leader who becomes the center of the mystical manipulation (or the person in whose name it is done) can be sometimes more real than an abstract god and therefore attractive to cult members legitimizes the deception used to recruit new members and/or raise funds, and the deception used on the "outside world"

3. THE DEMAND FOR PURITY

the world becomes sharply divided into the pure and the impure, the absolutely good (the group/ideology) and the absolutely evil (everything outside the group) one must continually change or conform to the group "norm" tendencies towards guilt and shame are used as emotional levers for
the group's controlling and manipulative influences once a person has experienced the totalist polarization of good/evil (black/white thinking), he has great difficulty in regaining a more balanced inner sensitivity to the complexities of human morality the radical separation of pure/impure is both within the environment (the group) and the individual ties in with the process of confession -- one must confess when one is not conforming

4. CONFESSION

cultic confession is carried beyond its ordinary religious, legal and therapeutic expressions to the point of becoming a cult in itself sessions in which one confesses to one's sin are accompanied by patterns of criticism and self-criticism, generally transpiring within small groups with an active and dynamic thrust toward personal change is an act of symbolic self-surrender makes it virtually impossible to attain a reasonable balance between worth and humility a young person confessing to various sins of pre-cultic existence can both believe in those sins and be covering over other ideas and feelings that s/he is either unaware of or reluctant to discuss often a person will confess to lesser sins while holding on to other secrets (often criticisms/questions/doubts about the group/leaders that may cause them not to advance to a leadership position) "the more I accuse myself, the more I have a right to judge you"

5. SACRED SCIENCE

the totalist milieu maintains an aura of sacredness around its basic doctrine or ideology, holding it as an ultimate moral vision for the ordering of human existence questioning or criticizing those basic assumptions is prohibited a reverence is demanded for the ideology/doctrine, the originators of the ideology/doctrine, the present bearers of the ideology/doctrine offers considerable security to young people because it greatly simplifies the world and answers a contemporary need to combine a sacred set of dogmatic principles with a claim to a science embodying the truth about human behavior and human psychology

6. LOADING THE LANGUAGE

the language of the totalist environment is characterized by the thought-terminating cliche (thought-stoppers) repetitiously centered on all-encompassing jargon "the language of non-thought" words are given new meanings -- the outside world does not use the words or phrases in the same way -- it becomes a "group" word or phrase

7. DOCTRINE OVER PERSON

every issue in one's life can be reduced to a single set of principles that have an inner coherence to the point that one can claim the experience of truth and feel it the pattern of doctrine over person occurs when there is a conflict between what one feels oneself experiencing and what the doctrine or ideology says one should experience if one questions the beliefs of the group or the leaders of the group, one is made to feel that there is something inherently wrong with them to even question -- it is always "turned around" on them and the questioner/criticizer is questioned rather than the questions answered directly the underlying assumption is that doctrine/ideology is ultimately more valid, true and real than any aspect of actual human character or human experience and one must subject one's experience to that "truth" the experience of contradiction can be immediately associated with guilt one is made to feel that doubts are reflections of one's own evil when doubt arises, conflicts become intense

8. DISPENSING OF EXISTENCE

since the group has an absolute or totalist vision of truth, those who are not in the group are bound up in evil, are not enlightened, are not saved, and do not have the right to exist "being verses nothingness" impediments to legitimate being must be pushed away or destroyed one outside the group may always receive their right of existence by joining the group fear manipulation -- if one leaves this group, one leaves God or loses their transformation, for something bad will happen to them the group is the "elite", outsiders are "of the world", "evil", "unenlightened", etc.




XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Anticultist blog comments





I have to admit, I have watched a lot of videos from Anonymous lately and I can't just simply ignore all this now. I'm actually alarmed by this all. Yes, alarmed. Not to put anyone in a panic, but this is troublesome.
1. They still have a moderator (Thunder) that made a threat to someone over the phone but they claim to be a non-violent movement.
2. Claim there is no "they" but have made many foes and Peter Joseph says "they" when referring to them by not name most of the time which makes him look crazy.
3. Peter Joseph does have that quote from that Albert guy saying this: "What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal." But then he claims he's not a leader or doesn't want to be one but acts like it with these type of quotes. Notice the word "immortal".
If people can't see the connections here, then I don't know what else to say. All we can do is keep talking about this and call this social therapy.
And this guy is a real doctor too, so yeah...
1. MILIEU CONTROL: This has DarkDancer all over it. You can look at the CHAPTER fall outs, for an example with the AZ Chapter how everyone was against Xenophon and was promoting RBOSE. I still want to see those RBOSE fliers. Any ways, he was a threat to their eyes for mentioning any type of alternatives. Then DarkDancer came in RBOSE one day to IRC and said I could chat with the Florida Chapter again, sounds like a set up, right?
2. MYSTICAL MANIPULATION: Sounds like love-bombing to me. That's how the newcomers are kept and then they return back to the authority/bully type folks therefore making the member(s) feel confused about the organization they are in. I was. They may not be agents of God, but they certainly act like disciples.
3. THE DEMAND FOR PURITY: They may not classify people as good and evil, but they certainly do a good job demonizing people and dissent, then try to come off pure themselves which is funny because the way they run is quite dirty. And yes, they throw guilt trips at each other for even recognizing how bad they operate. Then they are threatened to be banned therefore making them not feel worthy of being a TZM member.
4. CONFESSION: Instead of sins, this could be ex-members talking about the manipulative tactics that were used to ban people that they were too intimidated to confront moderators (those up top) about at the moment when things were getting corrupt.
5. SACRED SCIENCE: What's funny about this is that I think the members there know more about the so-called doctrine then the moderators or the people that work behind the scenes. This would explain all the infighting that takes place. And yeah, I think the young people are more easily manipulated in any group therefore making older folks more likely to use their age against them. Young moderators easily obey Tanktop.
6. LOADING THE LANGUAGE: I found their language quite loaded myself when I watch all the empty rhetoric videos from Anonymous. So funny and so true. Yes, there is thought-policing there for sure.
7. DOCTRINE OVER PERSON: Yes, conversations about authority alone are shut down quickly and people are shoved with messages like "listen to V-RADIO about this" when no one should painfully listen to a hypocrite. Not even read a word from him. There is a lot of guilt-inducing because of challenging the lack of professionalism for sure.
8. DISPENSING OF EXISTENCE: Yes, guilt trips are given for wanting to leave but then many folks say that they are not forced to stay when they enforce by making the person feel bad for not taking the Zeitgeist Movement seriously.
This is truly 101 psychology. I think the word "cult" is strong, but they definitely act cultish.
Great blog. I too recommend people look in Dr. Lifton.
I want to see how they respond to this.
BranManFloMore said this on June 7, 2010 at 1:13 am | Reply

branmanflore and all of you folks that agree with this blog are mentally ill. That's the last you'll hear from me. Fucking psychos...
john bale - pretending to be anti anticultist said this on June 7, 2010 at 11:53 am | Reply

haha check this above nob head out..he's been trying to post here for weeks and either gets denied because hes a psychotic cult defender or just gets ignored because I think it is funny pissing him off.
But check this out, I provide evidence of him being in a cult via those anonymous videos and my original Lifton research and then he calls US mentally ill and psychos !! hahahahaha I can't stop laughing at the denial and stupidity of this clown.
Seriously this cults members know no bounds of intellectual stupidity and dishonesty.
You know what ?
I hope you do never post here again you Croatian retard.
anticultist said this on June 7, 2010 at 7:27 pm | Reply

Dude you are as much retarded to post any video by the
con-anonymous. There is no credibility or validity in any of his video's. By being against the movement and calling it a cult you have failed to understand everything the movement stands for and proposes. You need to re-evaluate all the materials and question whether such a direction is not only possible but a requirement if we wish to survive as an advance civilization. Please don't just discard this as me being the one who is lost and doesn't understand, i am very-self conscious and question every part of myself and the information i encounter. Oh and don't come at me with you're ex-zm member bullshit, it only takes one error in ones programming for it to turn the program completely around on trigger(Programming: The way you're brain interpreted and stored the information based on you're previous views and information, Program: an instance of the YOU or a set of beliefs/views).
What was the trigger?
anit-con-anti-cultist said this on October 4, 2010 at 9:17 pm

Cult member above prepared to overlook the obvious conspiracy theories and lies in the movies and the movements inabliity to do anything in the now thats of any benefit to humanity.
Also unwilling to overlook the fact everything jacque says is being done by other people and groups and has been put forward by many other thinkiers and authors before him, nothing new to see in the venus project, nothing going to be done with it either, move on.
anticultist said this on October 5, 2010 at 2:30 pm

The basic characteristics of a cult are fairly simple and well established. TVP/TZM is in fact and absolutely so by any objective perusal of such checklists.
In fact they borrow heavily from Armageddon theology and might be simply classed as an Armageddon Cult for Atheists.
Here is a list of links for more information on cult checklists. You will find that there are several different lists and that TVP/TZM is obviously a cult no matter which checklist is used.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_checklist
http://www.workingpsychology.com/cult.html
http://www.skeptictank.org/hs/cultdyn.htm
http://dictionary.sensagent.com/cult+checklist/en-en/
Also, heres information on Armageddon Theology
http://www.countercurrents.org/us-michael300106.htm
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1C1SKPC_enUS336US364&q=Armageddon+Theology&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
TVP/TZM is in fact transparently a cult, by every and any definition, and as such is not much different than Fundamentalist Zionist Whackjob Militant Christians/Jews.
Switching over to Atheism is a clever way to hide, but the main points of TVP/ TZM sociology/psychohistory attempts all amount to Armageddon theology for (duped) Atheists.
prometheuspan said this on June 7, 2010 at 3:13 pm | Reply

Thanks for the links ProMeTheUsPan.
Uh oh, this blog is under their radar:
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=231&id=265624
BranManFloMore said this on June 9, 2010 at 5:11 am | Reply

Ya'll must be some of the most closed minded people on earth, you have no idea what the Venus project represents nor a clue as to what The Zeitgeist Moment is about, please refrain from speaking on behalf of what you do not know you sound ignorant.
Drew said this on June 7, 2010 at 11:26 pm | Reply

I guess you don't realise you are talking to an ex long standing moderator of the zeitgeist movement and another long standing member of over a year.
I guess what we can conclude here is you have not read the blog, have no idea who posts on the blog and also have less idea about the movement than we do.
What a pity you were doing so well right up until after 'Y'all must be some of the most'.
anticultist said this on June 8, 2010 at 12:01 am | Reply

just one last thing to say..."you croatian retard", just showed me why you don't agree with TZM and TVP, because you're a chauvinist..god bless america eh Paul? Ofcourse that it's going to be hard for a nationalist like Paul Jones (anticultist) to support the venus project which wants to unite all the people in the world regardless of nationality... but then Paul would loose his flag and his identity and couldn't insult me of my ethnicity...I'm sure there are tons of people visiting your blog (99 % don't support your statements btw) and when they see your racist comment made against my ethinicity, they will disregard you in the future as a chauvinist you are...
Dude how can't you seem to understand that all you do here is trivial, as the Movement grows, your cultish blog will be forgotten and you will just stay a highschool drop out that never attended college and works as a DJ, pathetic...you like to speak about credentialism, where is your credentialism, mr disc jockey? you fail, as well as this blog..now I suggest you delete your nasty insult or it's gonna hit you back in the head, believe it...
deleted the rest of his...RANT RANT RANT :-)
Anticultist says:
I guess you are not going away and lied in your last post then eh. Typical zeitgeister full of false promises.
By the way I have a post graduate education, with science & art qualifications, I have letters after my name, I am not unemployed and I do not live in the USA. It seems like you could not of been farther from the truth if you had lied, oh wait up thats what you actually did.
Meanwhile:
You do live in Croatia and you are a retard, therefore my statement stands as is and your inference of rascism is a silly attempt to divert any silly blame on me. You are a violent vicious individual and I have everyone of your posts saved in this blogs settings and they're all just you ranting and name calling. So don't act all holier than though you dumb shitbag.
Fact is you are in a cult my boy and you can't handle people saying it
So go and cry in the corner and don't come back till you can apologise to us cultie . This is your last post, because I am never allowing you to be seen or heard from again here.
At least I can keep your word for you.
john bale pretending to be anti anticultist said this on June 7, 2010 at 11:29 pm | Reply

This blog is Cult-alike. I suggest your apply those principals to yourself. You having a Science degree, what a joke.
Your Mom said this on June 8, 2010 at 6:27 am | Reply

Trying to point fingers at this blog because we just showed you the reality you are in a cult does not change the fact you are in a cult. If it makes you feel better blaming this blog and hating on us fine, but non the less the attributes of the cult stick with the zeitgeist movement.
Backlashes like yours are inevitable, and yours was very weak. You only switched blame of the evidence to us, really amateur of you actually.
anticultist said this on June 8, 2010 at 6:46 am | Reply

Zm movement member here - The only thing I think is money is cancer. I think anything connected to money acts like cancer.
What is normal when anything that is connected to money acts like cancer?
zm movement member said this on June 9, 2010 at 3:59 am | Reply

Money isnt the problem get your shit together. People acting greedy are the problem.
anticultist said this on June 9, 2010 at 3:15 pm | Reply

No get you're shit together, the society is what makes people greedy. I wonder what is society based on...MONEY!
anit-con-anti-cultist said this on October 4, 2010 at 9:46 pm

If you say so, then hows about you quit using money and piss off to the jungle and dont post here again using technology you have paid for. ?
anticultist said this on October 5, 2010 at 2:32 pm

What's funny is the use of the word cult, when many adocates have not actually physically met in person; they are joined via the realization of social problems. Many are just intelligent people sharing and communicating what will eventually be inevitable, a world without money, whether the human race lives to see it is up to us.
The monetary system is on a suicide mission. It has shown it's innate orientation towards monopoly and we are seeing the negative effects of a global cabal of financial institutions guised as socially relevant. When you own car manufacturing facilities, their repair and an oil company; what do you think is going to happen? Obviously the continence of oil dependency and cars made to necessitate repair. What do we have? Exactly that. There is profit in all negative aspects to human existence if you own enough institutions and thats exactly what we have today.
In fact the quantity of humans is at a level threating profit due to the potential loss of control of those within the parameters of monetary delusion. Nuclear war here we come, keep those numbers under control! I'm sorry when insanity is the norm you must realize that all others who might oppose it might appear "strange". Don't worry the adaptive nature of conscious existence will wipe your deluded mindset right out, as 'survival of the fittest' takes place; where all the supposed "conspiracy theorists" will be out of harms way before any other.
eden said this on June 9, 2010 at 5:52 am | Reply

Quit with your CT shit I am not interested in your paranoid fantasies that the elite wanna take over the world and make you slaves with no money and ruin their profit incentives.
You guys are just CTs with a fancy dream of a futuristic world, and claims of being the only saviour to society. You are more like a cult than you can admit.
The only difference between you and the Alex Jones crowd is
A: You are more articulate
B: You have a set of pictures you want the world to look like somewhere in the distanmt future
C: You are more antagonistic than the Alex Jones crew when things talk about you online. You hunt them down and argue on behalf of your cult.
haha you are going to be safe from nuclear war ? hahaha man you are such a cultie...jim jones and other cult leaders tried to move their group into places where they would be 'safe'. In fact end of world armageddonsists and christians believe the same crap.
Building a Noahs ark to save the world from disaster are you?
If the world comes down and all thats left is zeitgeisters, then this species is fucked.
anticultist said this on June 9, 2010 at 3:19 pm | Reply

You do realize the utter irony in calling someone a conspiracy theorist, right?
Suggesting that the Zeitgeist Movement is a cult is a conspiracy theory, therefore you are also a conspiracy theorist.
illuminate.the.excessive said this on June 16, 2010 at 1:36 pm

Not when you provide evidence and comparitive analysis and points. Thats what is called being logical, critical and using a scientific theory and statement to back up the claim.
A conspiracy theory would have no solid evidence and would be a flimsy conicidental or erroneous claim. It seems you dont even know what a conspiracy theory is either, let alone what a cult is. If you want to learn more about conspiracy theories go to the links on the right of this blog, there are recomended articles presented by muertos that will educate you on them.
anticultist said this on June 16, 2010 at 1:41 pm

You certainly haven't convinced me with your blog, that your statements are logical, critical and use "scientific theory."
What exactly are your credentials, sir?
I very much know what a conspiracy theory is, and just like any other theory, deserves scrutiny. Your theories, upon intense scrutiny and analysis don't hold up, so I won't hesitate to label you a conspiracy theorist.
illuminate.the.excessive said this on June 16, 2010 at 10:19 pm

Thats usually what Conspiracy Theorists do, they join a movement and then start pointing fingers at those who disagree with their claims.
Calling me a CT serves no purpose since I dont support NWO theories, I dont support 911 inside job garbage, I dont support any of that fringe theory crap.
So in essence what you are trying to say is you dissagree with me but are trying to label me in hope that it might stick, but really it cant stick because there is no evidence of any conspiracy theory presented here, if in fact the opposite we disagree entirely with them.
So what remains of your reply is this:
You disagree with the blog.
Well thats your prerogative and indeed your own right to do so, but don't blame me when the rest of the world starts calling you all out on your flaws and beliefs and labels you cranks and Conspiracy theorists. When you have people believing controlled demolitions and all other weird cranky stuff leading, promoting and representing your movement it is inevitable. The science questions should really be asked of you not me, since you all make the huge world saving claims with no scientific backing or evidence. And then consider the lack of peer process involved in your cult, you disallow critical reviews and have the nerve to label them conspiracy theorists?
You have to be joking !!
anticultist said this on June 16, 2010 at 10:57 pm

Even if the Zeitgeist Movement and the Venus Project were cults (which they are not obviously), would it really matter? The goal is to create a better planet and increase everyone's standard of living, including yours my friend.
A person said this on June 9, 2010 at 8:17 am | Reply

hahahaha
would it really matter !
Fuck me thats a legendary thing to say.
anticultist said this on June 9, 2010 at 3:14 pm | Reply

Wow, the people on this page really make me wonder. o.o; You guys do realize that you're attaching yourself to every tiny, detectable instances of marginally questionable behavior of our forum moderators, merely our FORUM MODERATORS, in an attempt to twist the movement into something it isn't? You guys do realize that the forum is not the movement. The international website is not the movement. The forum's moderators CERTAINLY are not the movement. If you want to villainze the movement, get off of the forums and onto its members. You know, the people who execute our activsm. Tell me what THEY are doing wrong.
As for the whole cult thing, that's a loaded term that's open to interpretation. One could make the Boy Scouts look cultish with a little effort like this. What I want to know is what the movement is doing that is considered destructive? We influence public opinion via debate and the sharing of personal views, but what is our destructive agenda of which you are so terrified.
Tanoro said this on June 9, 2010 at 1:30 pm | Reply

Your moderators are authoritarian wankers.
They are even trying to hide behind an anonymous cloak now so noone outside or inside the movement can know which admin made a decision or did something on the forum.
The forum moderators are not the movement ?
OH my bad for some stupid reason I thought they were representing it, fuck off with your dumb lame excuses. Damn right they represent the movement and are the movement.
The forum is not the movement? hahaha jesus f christ this gets more stupid as the clock ticks.
You even try to say the movies are not the movement. You people are just a bunch of idiots.
Forget your loaded term, a cult has definitions and characteristics, and your cult has them. You are focusing on the word destructive, when in fact not all cults are destructive and can be profit driven or politically motivated for example which makes them dangerous or even fraudulent. Try understanding cults and the videos a little more.
The zeitgiest cult members never cease to amaze me how much they will defend it and its corrupt leadership.
And by the way this post I put here, is from anonymous youtube channel not mine, so take your shit up with them if you dont like their videos.
anticultist said this on June 9, 2010 at 3:24 pm | Reply

Excellent blog, I'm in full agreement and backing of this blog. I'm finding when you make a emotional logical impact such as this blog anticultist the more people lash out, the more they attack.
To be in the Zeitgeist movement and Venus project which is one of the most wasteful things you could possibly do is to be completely indoctrinated in the idea that what you are learning is actually going to have any impact towards this world and actually has some type of relevance to anything. So when Anticultist gets comments from cult members from the Zeitgeist movement and Venus Project that try to debunk the aspects he talks about; it becomes quite clear to me that the reason they have such an objection is really a emotional one. It isn't a objective aspect, they have culminated a identity to themselves because of their belief system, and for Anticultist to take that away from them to debunk their ideas of Zeitgeist movement and Venus Project is to take away their identity.
In the end the Zeitgeist movement and Venus Project are a cult without a doubt.
Billll said this on June 9, 2010 at 3:27 pm | Reply

Oh man... Billll, I like how you mimic'd one of Peter Joseph's lecture there. So true and funny. That had me rolling.
BranManFloMore said this on June 9, 2010 at 5:52 pm | Reply

Yeah the whole point made is cool as well because Peter loves to act the all knowing and wise leader who can utilise wordsmithery to create an air of righteousness.
Well Billll just threw it right back at him rather nicely.
anticultist said this on June 9, 2010 at 6:44 pm

Billl I think that this post has definitely hit a nerve. Not only does it have specific definitions of what a cult is and how they can be compared against their movement. It also has nice videos provided by the anonymous lot to appeal to the short attention span of the masses.
This is pretty much the thing that bothers them so, they hate being called out and they will try and use any excuse they can to defend their cult.
Some given above like: this is not the movement, we will be safe, the world is going to end, we use science, a cult definition is vague, you are a cult not us, we want to save everyone even you etc..
They are all just rhetoric and CT stuff with no substance at all.
They have provided no evidence contrary to Dr Liftons specific details, and quite honestly I think they can not.
So they attempt to lay blame and use semantic generalisations to limit the damage.
I find it hilarious that they are all so blinkered to the facts of the cult terms and have no ability to assess it correctly.
They even think we dont understand their movement and proceed to brain wash/educate us in their goals and standards. hahaha
Man these people are truly deluded.
anticultist said this on June 9, 2010 at 3:57 pm | Reply

LOL
http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=60&id=263279&limit=10&limitstart=10#264158
The dip shits over at TZM have decided to be anonymous administration :S
How silly can they be ?
They are basically hiding their identities so noone can pull them up on their claims, behaviour and actions.
Talk about no accountability.
hahahaha, wow just when I thought this cult could get no stupider it goes and exceeds my expectations.
anticultist said this on June 9, 2010 at 7:38 pm | Reply

In communist Russia they had the KGB that would take people out that disagreed with them. The Zeitgeist hierarchical structure has the anonymous moderators that will take people/post out that disagree with them... Now it's just that much harder to complain about a moderator on a forum when they have no name, because they are in fact cowards... When you have a hierarchical structure such as the zeitgeist movement you need to know everything from the concepts right down to the people; when you hide identities such as what Peter Merola did with his last name, or hide moderator status you are trying to hide things, attempting to make it harder for people to have an objective opinion, your distorting the fact to fit your agenda not the individuals needs. If they can't be true with their identities in TZM/TVP, imagine what will happen if this group is ever successful having a Venus Project.... I can't even... I'm happy with the current system as today compared to if we were to implement the Venus Project base on the actions I see from TZM/TVP...
Billll said this on June 9, 2010 at 7:50 pm | Reply

You posted and obviously promote videos from a group fame themselves on the label anonymous. Oh the ironic hypocrisy.
eden said this on June 10, 2010 at 6:43 am | Reply

Think about what i said instead of just opening your mouth and letting dumb words leave it.
anticultist said this on June 10, 2010 at 1:21 pm

I do not believe anonymous has a leader or a hierarchical? When you have such a hierarchical structure as TZm/TVP it's a different story entirely. When Peter Merola does not reveal his last name yet still calls the shots, when he asks people to change their view points in such a drastic way, knowing who is calling the "shots" should be a given not a comfort... This "Oh the ironic hypocrisy." is completely imaginary as anonymous was anonymous from the start, to my research anonymous has no leader, no structure, Zeitgeist/venus project does.
Billll said this on June 10, 2010 at 3:10 pm

http://deekjackson.com/?p=1156#comments

anticultist said this on June 11, 2010 at 10:11 pm | Reply

When I studied Systems theory and Sociology, on thing that really stuck for me was the basics of organizational management for businesses or business like entities.
As a teenager trying to break into the work force, my greatest early successes were those in which I was taken on as an- on the Cheap consultant in order to help fix medium sized companies with serious problems. The first question I learned to ask was "What do you have for processes and metaprocesses". Strangely they never knew what I was talking about.
A process or procedure or protocol is the steps that are taken in the labor process. Actions, things you do, tasks, which are done one after the other in sequential order.
Meta process then is the processes about the process. Dealing with internal conflicts. Preventing internal conflicts. Organizing workload. Assigning tasks and obtaining reports.
Making changes to the process, adding new processes, or working out kinks or problems in the process.
These two things are in many senses very simple but very easy to miss if you don't know them- Apparently. Too many companies don't know them, and get hamstrung over the problems that are then created.
The same thing amplifies a million times in a volunteer or open source or collaborative environment. Without clear process and meta process, a group as a whole will run in the different directions of the participants. Thats a process problem where each person has a different process in mind. This then mushrooms into conflict, and, without a lucid metaprocess, that then leads to people being fired, or leaving, orlosing motivational energy, or long drawn out arguments - usually not over the things that actually matter and usually without any relevance at all to solving problems.
People need to know how to participate before they usually can or will. the kind of person that just jumps in without clarity on such things is both very rare and also obviously has a whole lot more time to kill.
When an organization first starts, it doesn't have processes or metaprocesses. But if it doesn't immediately create them, then it is doomed to run in circles and get little done.
It is a fundamental assumption that most people make that such things are so simple and easy that they can just be winged, improvised, worked through on a case by case basis- crossing those bridges when you come to them.
The problem is that in reality a functional metaprocess for open source collaboration is in fact such a complicated and high order problem that nobody has yet accomplished it. Sure, Wikipedia has a millions of articles.
But they were hewn out of troll warfare and propaganda mind games, not a meaningful metaprocess.
Every modern social movements success or failure and degree of such can be traced to the question of metaprocess. As can the assorted corporate entities. By studying the question of process and metaprocess, the likely continued success or failure of a corporation can be determined a decade (or decades) ahead of the economic indicators. The best advice for investment strategy? Find a company that has a solid metaprocess, a company which deals in an adult manner with internal and external conflicts, a company which does not rely on rigged "mediation" to sucker people into hierarchy driven corporate fascism. Find a company with a soul; and soul enough to solve human problems using evolved human problem problem solving process, and that company obviously will succeed above other companies because it can solve problems that arise between people; Rather than just making the person into the problem, blaming victims, and then firing them.
Waiting to cross bridges until you come to them turns out to be an exercise in assuming that there will be a bridge, and arriving at a river too deep to cross on a plain with no trees to cut to make a bridge for hundreds of miles.
The organization in question then ends up trapped and camped out on the one side of said river, and can not ever usually manage to get to the other side.
This is beautfully and bizzarely true for the easy example of TVP/TZM. They have no metaprocess, they are a cult of personality in three tiers. The river that they couldn't cross was being adult and responsible about conflicts between the ego driven and evil Radio Blog folks such as "VTV" and "Thunder" and their assorted victims. Without a real metaprocess, they become nothing but casual liars, implementing useless measures feigning some sort of metaprocess and proving all the while gross incompetence. They can never be a social movement while in fact being anti social, and they can never move, because the river that they came to is as deep and wide as the invalidators egotism of the people in charge.
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=231&id=265624
"The Zeitgeist Movement is not religious. Its members do not get together to worship, pray, or take part in any faith-based activities or ceremonies. We are a social movement, advocating social change."
No, TZM is nothing but Armageddon theology repackaged for Atheists. It is not a social movement, its anti social and it can't move. They aren't advocating social change, they are advocating doing nothing until civilization self destructs, and they have the same fantasies about post armageddon edens and zions that the Zionists and Armageddon theologists do.
"The Zeitgeist Movement wishes to influence society with its views, but not be separated from it or antagonize it.
We do not separate ourselves from the public. We try hard to work with the public."
And in fact they create a very closed ethnocentrism circuit, which invalidates all other governments, all other religions, and all other social movements as inferior.
"We gather information from public sources and consult publically acknowledged experts regarding our advocations."
They can't manage to consult experts because no experts take them seriously enough to provide such consultations.
"Most of us have jobs, families, and live perfectly average lives. We support the Zeitgeist Movement because we believe society would benefit from it."
This is a >belief< system, obviously.
The movement does NOT advocate violence! In neither the Zeitgeist films nor our official propaganda does anyone in the movement ever advocate violent actions
Other than allowing civilization to come to ruin. They don't advocate violence, they just advocate doing nothing while violence goes on and in essence paying tickets in order to sell seats for the violence "Boo"
inverted cheerleading squad. In short, they end up being against all governments and all religions and they advocate inaction in the face of the very same problems that they decry. Its as good as selling tickets to a rape. They won't intervene, they won't interfere, no, they don't "advocate" violence, they are just making dough off of the incidental violence which they in essence promote via advertising.
We believe in rational and logical persuasion through interaction and public debate.
But are incapable of rational dialog and will ban you and lie about you if you even try to attempt debate.
There are no punishments or penalties of any kind for any reason aside from possible disclusion from further activity if your behavior proves destructive.
A transparent lie, as I was banned and lied about not for breaking any rules or being destructive, but for pointing out that VTV was both breaking rules and being destructive.
In other words, if you join our forums or attend an event acting like a jerk, you will probably be banned from further activities.
Or, if you join the forum and have knowledge that the pretending con artists and charlatans don't have, they will ban you for presenting an awkward contrast to their gross incompetence and ignorance.
Like any other group, we have our bad apples whose goal is to ruin the movement rather than help it.
Unlike most groups, those people are in charge.
Aside from these disclusions, we do not penalize anyone for any reason.
a transparent lie.
The Zeitgeist Movement has no leader.
Aside from Jaques, Peter Joseph, VTV, and Thunder, in that order of hierarchy.
Many people, some even in the movement, often mistakenly assume Peter Joseph or Jacque Fresco are the leaders of the movement. These men do nothing more than share their views for the asking.
More transparent lies.
While Peter is the movement's founder, he does not instruct members or guide their activities.
Except all over the board, on the forums, in their chat rooms, and everyplace else, where he does in fact exert authority and control.
Each sub-chapter in every city is responsible for organizing and executing their own activities with coordination from the national level chapters, but no formal instruction.
And thats supposed to be a good thing?
Jacque Fresco has almost no routine interaction with the movement at all, much less to instruct anyone. His role is that of a researcher and lecturer only.
Hes not a researcher, he makes paper models. If he was any kind of real researcher we wouldn't be having such messes.
Scrutiny is encouraged.
And all who offer real scrutiny are immediately diabolized and banned.
All members are heavily encouraged to scrutinize any information provided to them from any source, especially from within the movement.
A transparent lie.
We are firm supporters of the Scientific Method
But never employ it.
and do not take anyone's word without question. Skeptics ignore this fact entirely and believe the movement is composed exclusively of credulous individuals, but the truth is the exact opposite.
No, the truth is that its a charlatans scam. It could have been a beautiful thing, but instead of being open and transparent and employing a real metaprocess, they have admins who are trolls, who are invalidators, who are abusers, who are liars, who are fakes, and anyone who questions their authority is removed, banned, lied about, diabolized, and etc.
The point of this Digression being, that they don't have a metaprocess. What they have is assorted means to increase the power of the admins who are abusive to further abuse the public. The most recent example of this is that they are now making the moderators second accounts on the forum so that said moderators can hide behind a cloak of secrecy about their identity. Why?
How do they defend this? What is their reasoning for it? Quite simply, they are very abusive and evil people and this empowers them to continue these patterns of abuse without the public being able to tell whos doing what.
prometheuspan said this on June 11, 2010 at 10:31 pm | Reply

wow...im amazed the amount of energy and effort you put in to this when you could actually use it to make a some real change, You are aware of the problems we are facing, arn´t you? this site is nothing but a waist of valueble time.
Taongi said this on July 21, 2010 at 7:02 pm | Reply

Yeah well you deemed it important enough to comment here right?
If its such a waste of your valuable time why not get on with fixing the worlds problems and leave the rest of us to point out the fallacies of zeitgeist and the venus project.
I am not in the business of saving the world, I have never claimed to be nor will I ever do so.
anticultist said this on July 22, 2010 at 12:42 am | Reply

I just designed three buildings and talked RBEF out of replicating TZMs worst mistakes. All in all thats once again more that i have done in terms of real work and pragmatic right action than all of TZM combined in its entire life span.
prometheuspan said this on July 22, 2010 at 2:40 pm | Reply

And in under 36 hours.
prometheuspan said this on July 22, 2010 at 2:41 pm | Reply

Hey AC, ProMeTheUsPan created a forum to talk about cults of personality in the RBEF Forum:
http://www.rbefoundation.com/viewgroup.php?f=714
That should be fun.
LoL!
I think you should break the ice.
BranManFloMore said this on September 5, 2010 at 8:35 pm | Reply
i agree...
:)
prometheuspan said this on September 6, 2010 at 10:11 am | Reply

[...] So you don't think TVP and TZM are a cult [...]
Zeitgeist Blogs: Zeitgeist is a Mind Heist « Zeitgeist Movement Exposed said this on November 10, 2010 at 9:12 pm | Reply
The most recent example of this is that they are now making the moderators second accounts on the forum so that said moderators can hide behind a cloak of secrecy about their identity. Why?
A lack of transparently is lying. This never changes.
Dave said this on February 19, 2011 at 6:44 am | Reply

If they hide behind a cloack of secrecy, is probably because someone could assasinate them. I think some people want those moderators and admins dead, and they are afraid of being killed. In the end, it's either to improve the generation of resources in the world, or to let them all run out.
Ignacio Cortorreal said this on February 28, 2011 at 10:09 pm | Reply

LOL WTF ? !!!
Paranoid people make me laugh a lot.
anticultist said this on April 12, 2011 at 6:16 pm | Reply

I find it funny that a good majority of these posts are supporters of zeitgeist and the only person in a pathetic attempt to defend this absurd website is anticultist you clearly have very few supporter you moronic fool
Anticultist is a halfwit said this on April 26, 2011 at 5:08 pm | Reply

Thats because Zeitards are butthurt that their cult is being shown to be a catastrophic failure, and the only reason there are a lot of Zeitard posts here are because i allow them to humiliate themselves on my blog for posterity. Zeitards like you have a tendency to hit up any blog or website that shows your cult in a bad light because you think thats how you should act. If arguing with people online who disagree with your cult is the only thing you feel is going to change the world I pity you, newsflash: you are failing on all counts of your claims. You guys have achieved nothing other than looking complete douchebags to the rest of the world. Congratulations.
And if you think I am the only critic on this blog then you are not only blind, but are more than likely in denial and have not attempted to actually read anything here, catastrophic failure of an assessment once again. It is good to know zeitards are at least consistent in their failing.
Now what was that you were saying about being absurd ? fool
anticultist said this on April 26, 2011 at 5:16 pm | Reply




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I can't stop posting pictures of poop, what the fuck is wrong with me?

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Zeitgeist Movement entrance test results June.10.2010 41 59

http://web.archive.org/web/20110830160353/http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/06/10/zeitgeist-movement-entrance-test-results/


The test appears to be rigged no matter how you take it and answer the scores fluctuate and are not correct. It is simply a way to reduce people from quickly entering.



See here for a discussion on it.



http://conspiracyscience.com/forums/topic/answers-to-zeitgeist-test



Also here is a cheat sheet for anyone wanting quick entry and to test the claims of conspiracy science members:

http://www.aaronmhatch.com/zeitgeist.html


In the view of the movement, technological tools are considered:
X Extensions of the human being's performance
Attributes of progress
Destructive to the environment
Neutral to the labor market


Who made the following statement: "Greed and Competition are not the result of immutable human temperament...greed and fear of scarcity are in fact being continuously created and amplified as a direct result of the kind of money we are using... We can produce more than enough food to feed everybody...but there is clearly not enough money to pay for it all. The scarcity is in our national currencies. In fact, the job of the central banks is to create and maintain that currency scarcity. The direct consequence is that we have to fight with each other in order to survive."
Milton Friedman
John Maynard Keynes
Jacque Fresco
X Bernard Lietaer


The role of people in a monetary system can be broken into the following categories:
X Employee, Consumer, Employer
Laborer, Investor, Producer
Owner, Slave, Executioner
Wage Earner, Corporation, Investor


The most basic fundamental building blocks of human/social survival are:
X Energy, raw materials, food/air/water
Energy, education, social capital
Raw materials, labor, education
God, money, flags


Based on current studies, increased income inequality is linked to:
Increased social capital
X Increased crime
Decreased vanity
Decreased consumption


The Venus Project, as an idea in its most simplistic form, represents:
The application of collectivism for social operation
A socialist solution to environmental and social problems
A technocracy based method of global Management
X The application of the scientific method for social concern


It is suggested that an efficient housing structure of the future be made of:
Glass and steel
Wood frames
X Pre-stressed concrete
Steel and heat concentrators


When it comes to the financial system, the movement, in the long term, advocates:
financial reform by way of removing Central Banks
X the removal of money itself as a means of exchange
removal of interest
going back to a gold or silver standard


Most "crimes" in the world are a consequence of:
Genetic dispositions
X Monetary deprivation
Social misunderstanding
Ego


In the process of transitioning to a RBE, which is the most important first step:
Survey social needs
Optimize production/distribution methods
X Survey the planetary resources
Automate labor


The entire global market system is most dependent on the following attribute to sustain economic growth:
Employment
Money creation
X Cyclical consumption
Interest rates


A resource-based economy is best defined as:
A NWO trick to reduce the population
X A social system designed to manage resources, automate production/distribution and remove money and trade
A theory dealing with energy distribution through credits
A social system based on no money, with a strict, equal amount of resources given to citizens


In the view of the movement, the incentive to acquire money results in:
X Corruption more than contributions to social progress
Social progress and creativity
Stock market manipulation
Material progress but spiritual distortion


When social values are not in tandem with progressive technological changes, this is termed:
X Culture lag
Traditional paralysis
Luddite demeanor
Traditional flux


In a resource-based economy, scarcity will be overcome through:
Substitutions, energy certificates
Renewable energies and mandatory labor
X Technological ingenuity, substitutions, waste reduction & conservation
Legal limits on consumption and waste reduction


Virtually all money in the American economy and most economies in the world is generated:
X Out of debt, through loans
Out of a gold standard
By government request
Out of a silver standard


What is the main, core reason why the Venus Project's resource-based economy is needed?
Social values are too distorted and need renovation.
X Our current system is simply unsustainable.
Money will result is growing elitism and stratification.
Poverty is growing exponentially.


Which term below best completes the following statement: "Profit based shortcuts in production, coupled with the deliberate withholding of efficiency in the creation of a given product, is known as _________."
Production corruption
X Planned obsolescence
Product duplication protocol
Marketing magnification


Abundance, sustainability and efficiency are ________.
impossible in a world bound by natural law.
ideal attributes of a socialistic society.
required for survival in a monetary system.
X the enemies of profit.


In regard to religious traditions in a resource-based economy:
X Everyone is free to practice.
It is regulated through a "free speech agency."
It is outlawed.
It is mandatory to worship the sun god Horus.


40% of the annual deaths worldwide are caused by:
Disease and malnutrition
War, poverty and genocide
X Water, air and soil pollution
GMO foods


In a resource-based economy, what kind of theory best describes the total approach to Earth management?
Entropy
Thermodynamics
Nonlinear dynamics
X Systems


The basic approach to reducing aberrant human behavior in a resource-based economy is:
Reeducation through mandatory schools
Creating community counsels for treatment
Full frontal lobotomies
X Adjusting the environment so such motivations do not materialize


In order to relieve land based population pressures, a RBE would:
Build 4 mile high buildings
Move into outer space
X Extend to cities in the sea
Have a one child policy


When considering a transition from the current society to a resource-based economy, the most important initial issue is:
Education
X Governmental action
Renewable energies
Ethical outreach


In a resource-based economy the resources of the planet are deemed:
Universally related by systems theory
Tools for social creation
X Common heritage of all the world's people
Expressions of symbiotic relationships


The essential role of the Interdisciplinary Teams in a resource-based economy is:
X To manage society's technical operations
To serve as the power establishment
To control the world
To keep the AI system up to date


Advanced maglev technology is documented to use:
Less than 5% of the energy for plane travel
X Less than 2% of the energy for plane travel
Less than 20% of the energy for plane travel
Less than 1% of the energy for plane travel


A key attribute in city design within a resource-based economy is:
Embedding all energy harnessing within
Making transport integrated, reducing automobiles
Growing all food locally, when possible
X All of the above


Who made the following statement: "The role of humans as the most important factor of production is bound to diminish in the same way that the role of horses in agricultural production was first diminished and then eliminated by the introduction of tractors."
Albert Einstein
Buckminster Fuller
Roxanne Meadows
X Wassily Leontief


Which technology will likely make the commercial airplane obsolete?
Lightwave auto-tram
Conveyers
Human teleport
X Maglev trains


From the view of the Movement, the monetary system is basically:
A tool of plutocracy
Annoying
In need of reform
X Obsolete


A central demand of the scientific method is:
Empirical Referents
X Experimentation
Testing
Intuition


Without a monetary system, which of the following will likely no longer exist?
X Planned obsolescence
High quality goods
Labor
Freedom


The true threats to humanity are:
Terrorists
Oligarchs and Money
Satan
X Those common to every human being


Which set of alternative energies is TZM/VP most interested in?
Solar, wind, biomass, tidal, wave
Solar, clean coal, wind, geothermal
Biomass, solar, tidal, wave
X Solar, wave, wind, geothermal, tidal


A true democracy is:
A mythological idea
The election of the best person for the job
Dependent on ethics and culture
X The election of ideas themselves


What is the basic safeguard against abuse in a resource-based economy?
Everyone is microchipped and tracked.
X Once the need for money is surpassed, there will be little inherent reward in abuse.
People will be reeducated if they do not comply.
Genetic modification


A central problem(s) with the monetary system is that:
Problems and scarcity equals profit.
Many forms of labor have no value to true social contributions.
The incentive for money leads to corruption.
X All of the above


The free market system has a natural propensity for:
X Monopoly and cartel
Division of labor
Equality and balance
Civil unrest


The true motivation for the act of War is:
Revenge - industrial profit - spreading of ideologies
X Industrial profit - resource acquisition - geopolitical alignment
Resource acquisition - spreading of ideologies - geopolitical alignment
Dispute resolution - spreading of ideologies - industrial profit


Which form of energy has been denoted by MIT to have a potential of 2000 ZJ of power?
X Geothermal
Solar
Wind
Wave


The boom and bust cycle of an economy is caused essentially by:
X The amount of money entering and leaving the economy's money supply
Loss of jobs
Interest rate fluctuation
Inflation and depreciation


Social design must be most directly correlated to:
The state of population growth
The opinions of the population
X The carrying capacity of the Earth
The rate of technological change


Which of the following is most responsible for large social changes:
Elections of competent people
Protest movements
X Biosocial pressures
War


A resource-based economy, by definition, would need to be:
X Global
Socialistic
Free of crime
A circular city


In J. Fresco's circular city design, the outer perimeter is the:
Residential belt
Agricultural belt
Production belt
X Recreational belt


In the view of the movement, today's legal system is best described as:
An ideological dead end
A system of monetary rule
A failed idea
X Patchwork--not addressing root causes


Based on the history of mechanization, it is axiomatic to say that:
Mechanization is more productive than human labor overall
Mechanization can free humanity from stressful labor
Mechanization can be the "emancipation proclamation for human kind"
X All of the above


Dynamic equilibrium occurs when:
X Two or more opposing process proceed at the same rate.
Balances occur between similar processes
Homeostasis is achieved
Systems theory is applied


In the America economy (and most others), there is always more outstanding debt than money in existence. This is largely due to:
Boom and bust cycle
Constant contraction
X Interest charged for loans
Fiat basis of money


The progression of technology appears to be growing at a:
Linear rate
Exponential rate
X Geometric rate
All of the above


The idea/necessity of "property" comes from:
Capitalism
X Scarcity
Democracy
Ego


True security comes from:
Shared values
Police and prisons
X Solving social problems
Economic balance


Technological unemployment is defined as:
X Displacement of human labor by machines
Displacement of human labor by systems theory
Displacement of human labor by failed technological systems
Displacement of human labor by androids



XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Anticultist blog comments



If they plan to shove this test on everyone, they need to make everyone take it, no matter how long they have been there - if they don't, then this is textbook favoritism.
Me Taking The Quiz:
1.
What's the difference between "attributes of progress" and "extensions of the human being's performance"?
2.
If he can't even quote people right, then people are bound to miss this one:
http://truth11.com/2009/04/06/quote-greed-and-competition-bernard-lietaer-founder-of-the-eu-currency-system
3.
"Owner, Slave, Executioner?" Really? That's a fearmongering answer, I would have chosen "Employee, Consumer, Employer" since he talks about the cyclical consumption.
4.
So much for education. But then again, some would get the "re-education" knee-jerk reaction probably.
5.
This falls in a gray area to me, especially when he tries to picture a WW3 as a "real war", not according the answer here. Look at the end of the "Who Is Peter Joseph" interview and you'll see what I mean. Back in the Rome days, Romans use to conquer other countries to spread their ideologies, not just for profit. So this is kind of misleading. Even John Perkins makes this brief point in Zeitgeist: Addendum as he talks about "corporatocracy" ironically.
6.
I would agree here.
7.
Alrighty then.
8.
Okay, but I do see signs of collectivism though.
9.
Wait... Isn't the Venus Project made out of steel and concrete? I'm sure I read that somewhere. Correct me if I'm wrong please.
10.
Yeah, a Global Resource Based Economy. Got it.
11.
I thought it was because of the monetary system? So confused... I would have picked "ego" if it said "hate crimes". But not "most crimes".
12.
Aren't planetary resources "social needs"?
13.
And around we go.
14.
What's the difference between the 2nd and the 4th? And what about abundance? Is this a NWO trick?
15.
At least it says "more than" oppose to complete corruption.
16.
Yes, we're going to see a lot of culture problems and not everything is technical.
17.
I would have got this right.
18.
I would get this right too.
19.
I would have went for the first one since the Venus Project talks about redesigning culture. It's on their website if you don't believe me.
20.
I would have picked "planned obsolescence".
21.
Right from Zeitgeist: Addendum.
22.
I like this answer but they still put out an atheist vibe therefore "practicing religions" can easily be discouraged and people can look at each other deeming each other "socially offensive". I still like the answer though.
23.
It depends how that money is entering and leaving, I'm not sure about that one.
24.
I would have said from disease and malnutrition since 34,000 children die a day due to this like it says in Zeitgeist: Addendum in the beginning of the film.
25.
The first and third can sound the same, but I would have chosen the third one myself.
26.
Yes, systematic approach.
27.
The second answer sounds logical too.
28.
Cities in the sea would be awesome. I guess people should go on cruise ships and get a feel for it first.
29.
I would have said all the above.
30.
Isn't protesting making biosocial pressure? This is confusing, activism makes biosocial pressure I would think. Isn't this the activist arm for the Venus Project?
31.
Yes, global, but it should be more focused on a local level. Saying RBGE is arrogant to me. People should be able to try out other alternatives as well during the transition.
32.
Yes, I'm familiar with that wording.
33.
I agree, but they fail in this area now and don't even have qualified moderators. So yeah...
34.
I would have done research on that myself.
35.
I'm confused, Jacque Fresco has car models but in a RBE society automobiles would be reduced?
36.
Right.
37.
Never heard of this guy and the quote is accurate.
38.
I wonder how ET3 is doing now.
39.
Abolish away.
40.
Correct, but try to trademark "RBE". Hypocrisy.
41.
Indeed. Technology is evolving by itself through this process hopefully.
42.
Testing or experimenting, what's the difference?
43.
I would have pick the 2nd answer.
44.
I would have chosen "Planned obsolescence" again. Labor would be reduced, but not completely gone. People will have to maintain machines still I'm sure.
45.
Common indeed.
46.
Sure.
47.
Okay.
48.
I would have chosen this answer.
49.
Yeah, but abuse of power takes place once someone has power in general given with perks that is not money related, so what do we do about that?
50.
That is the root cause.
51.
I would have said "exponential rate".
---------
Well, from taking this test, it's my opinion that they should remove it because they don't know how to form a test themselves when they pose anti-credentialism. It's a slap in a face to everyone that takes it. I'm referring to the newcomers and some answers were similar to each other and could mean the same thing.
So it's a big FAIL in my book and it enforces dogma.
BranManFloMore said this on June 10, 2010 at 9:48 pm | Reply

in deed, this "test" is a laughable construct, half of the answers they want you to give are factually wrong, they can't even be bothered to keep their own facts straight on the test, its a joke.
It was a fine idea, but like everything else about TZM the implementation screams "incompetent losers" far louder than anything else.
prometheuspan said this on June 11, 2010 at 8:53 pm | Reply

Yeah, it would be nice if they turned this into a "Did you know" type of page, but they can't even get their answers straight. So yeah... If I confused anyone with the answers and my explanations, I was going by what Aaron did on his website and yes, I do realize he's editing as they are making more questions and answers, but what I said is suffice.
BranManFloMore said this on June 11, 2010 at 11:26 pm | Reply

@prometheuspan
I see, so you're settings the example for the way forward?
"If you don't like how something is done, don't help, don't solve the issues, don't overcome the challenges in doing something well, just dismiss it and deride it because you're better than that"
Hmm, something tells me this will help propagate the status quo more than anything. Sorry.
Joseph Matthew said this on June 15, 2010 at 1:19 pm | Reply

Something tells me you don't know his background to begin with.
Actually, he has made a lot of contributions in RBEF than you can fathom and what have you done? Just go on blogs that criticize TZM with substance? Oh yeah, you're a real contributor [sarcasm]. Me and him talk about the false & true axioms of the Venus Project, you know- do some actual research.
BranManFloMore said this on June 15, 2010 at 1:42 pm | Reply

Thats true Bran all Joseph does is hunt down people who disagree with TZM and TVP and he then proceeds to troll their pages and report back to the forum with quotes of his replies, and links to get his members to spam them.
Thats what he considers doing his duty for TZM goals. He is going to achieve what exactly by doing this? It certainly will not be bringing about an RBE and it certainly is not helping remove the us vs them mentality TZM has.
anticultist said this on June 15, 2010 at 1:53 pm | Reply

Wow, you guys really are on the ball. What's fun is that you CLAIM to know my efforts, without any information or evidence to what I do or do not do.
That said, I can speak of prometheus' efforts, because he's adamant about showing himself online via RBEF, he obviously believes that splintering off (RBEF) before these ideas are even off the ground is going to somehow help more hurt, and help more than solving issues within the singular movement.
I've done my research, and it comes back to this: We're stronger together.
It's the whiney few who think "if it's not 'their plan', it's not good enough" and so work to destroy the good effort of others.
Tell me I'm wrong about this and show just how ridiculous you guys really are.
Joseph Matthew said this on June 15, 2010 at 2:09 pm | Reply

The evidence has already been given about you in the past, google your name and tzm or tvp and all the places you have spammed can be found. As well as goto the tzm forum and search your name and you can find all the threads you have created where you have pointed to your spam. Its not difficult to see you are just an internet shit sniffer.
anticultist said this on June 15, 2010 at 2:13 pm | Reply

Yes, because obviously google knows all. The best part is that you think this logic is sound, when it's just tragically misguided.
In-fighting destroys movements. You are working hard to ensure that. You do this, from all evidence on this blog, because you're immature (shit sniffer?) and have no idea how to tackle such issues. Sorry for being blunt, but someone needs to tell you this.
It's just sad (and let's try to use our adult words from now on ok?)
Joseph Matthew said this on June 15, 2010 at 2:16 pm

Look it is clear from your reply you are trying to avoid being called out for what you are and what you do in the name of your cult. You just harass people in threads you do not like talking about your TZM group.
Trying to make a pathetic attempt at discrediting a google search on you is quite simply funny. Anyone can search you out and find the evidence on your us vs them antagonising tactics.
You really are not helping your movement take it from me, I am being honest with you. You are driving a steak between people and it, if I was Peter I would of told you to quit chasing people down and quit posting about them on the forum by now.
You have no clue about what is good for the movement because all you like to do is argue online with people who have points about your movement.
You do nothing.
anticultist said this on June 15, 2010 at 2:21 pm

"In-fighting destroys movements."
TZM is pushing people out and causing the infighting, so you can't guilt-trip us with that.
"You are working hard to ensure that."
No, he's just exposing TZM for not being professional at all and them being questionable on many levels.
"You do this, from all evidence on this blog, because you're immature (shit sniffer?) and have no idea how to tackle such issues."
The information is an overdose and he has done the research, it's time to evolve and stop being immature yourself.
"Sorry for being blunt, but someone needs to tell you this."
You're not that special to tell us anything.
"It's just sad (and let's try to use our adult words from now on ok?)"
You don't act like an adult yourself, so don't tell us how we should act.
BranManFloMore said this on June 15, 2010 at 2:33 pm

Pot meet kettle? It's like you're not even trying to manage your own hypocrisies.
I love how you call posting on a blog that exists to have people post different views as "harassing", yet you yourself do the same. Wonder what word you use when it's you doing it?
Just because you use a word or make a claim Anticultist, doesn't make it truth. I keep trying to think you're better than this, but then you keep proving me wrong.
As for all your other claims, please look in the mirror. What you're doing is called "projecting" by psychiatrists.
Try to remember, I'm not the one with the blog that exists solely to tear down the good efforts of others.
Good luck to you. If you can be honest with yourself, you're going to need it!
Joseph Matthew said this on June 15, 2010 at 2:46 pm

There is nothing hypocritical here I do not post on their forum and harass them I stay away and talk on forums and blogs that have nothing to do with TZM they are just places for people to discuss the flaws and innacuracies of the movement. You just dont like it and want it to go away.
You are the one projecting, I am just presenting. By the way dont try and educate me on psychiatry I have already provided a neat little psychological analysis of the conspiracy theorists mind set, which is what TZM is comprised of.
By the way this blog does not exist for TZM pro views, you got that all wrong, we have been through this before and that retard brain of yours hasnt soaked it up.
This blog is for anti TZM views, get it straight.
anticultist said this on June 15, 2010 at 2:50 pm

I was asking what your efforts are and you fail to answer that question. So now, I'm forced to assume you do nothing else. I've done my research and it comes back to this: why work with abusive people that aren't that intelligent?
When I criticize TZM, I'm not destroying the RBE idea in general -- if that was the case -- I would have not bothered joining up at RBEF.
So yeah, you're wrong about this and your comments are ridiculous, not ours. I've responded to your comments here on this webpage before and you're not that bright.
BranManFloMore said this on June 15, 2010 at 2:22 pm | Reply

I choose not to answer your question, because it is not relevant (my choice) and I won't be sucked in to your web of fear & negativity. I know what I'm doing... I wish you understood better what you're doing.
Remember, I'm not the one making blogs intended to try to tear the good efforts of others down. Notice how there are no anti-RBEF blogs? Think about it.
Basically you say "It's time to jump ship because a few bad apples spoil the barrel" and it's just silly.
The only thing you're showing by splintering off (and this goes for all the RBEF guys) is your own limitations in communicating effectively. The very same problems you take with you to the next splinter group. Instead of working against TZM / TVP, suggest you solve those communication problems and you won't have to deride TZM / TVP to make yourselves feel better.
BranMan, am sorry that you left, but if you think these ideas are going to succeed without our first becoming experts in communication, forgiveness, and compassion, you are indeed mistaken.
If you think these ideas are going to succeed because every time things don't go to your ideal, you splinter off and join some other effort (with the same extant issues), you're mistaken.
The most ridiculous thing is that this blog even exists. It's like kids who didn't get a cookie before their dinner saying how mom's a monster.
But keep it up, I say; from all measurable evidence, your ridiculous hypocrisy is helping us get more members. When you grow up and realize how the dynamics to these challenging efforts actually work, you're welcome to come back and help.
Joseph Matthew said this on June 15, 2010 at 2:37 pm

There are no anti RBEF blogs because RBEF is leaderless and is group orientated and democratic unlike TZM.
You choose not to answer because you can not answer, since you have not done anything constructive other than make posts on anti TZMforums and blogs.
Speaking of innefective communication one only has to take a look on the TZM forum and the evidence of that is everywhere. You should solve your own communication problems before you advise others to fix theirs otherwise its just hypocrisy and noone is listening to that.
The ridiculous thing is that TZM made this blog exist in the first place, they said and I quote "If you want to dissagree with us and wont work with us take your opininons elsewhere and voice them". So if you want to blame anyone for its existance take it up with your leadership, it is because they had the inability to deal with questions and points that discussed matters they would rather the membership were unaware of that we are here doing it. That is what is called avoiding the issues and pushing people away, also called poor communication on their part.
Grow up? What are you some kind of father figure to everyone now ? please go and assess your own shortcomings and idiocy because you are no adult.
anticultist said this on June 15, 2010 at 2:46 pm

"I choose not to answer your question, because it is not relevant (my choice) and I won't be sucked in to your web of fear & negativity."
You questioned ProMeTheUsPan contributions, so I thought I should put you on the spot- so it was relevant rather you liked the negativity/fear or not.
"I know what I'm doing... I wish you understood better what you're doing."
You don't know what you are doing, seriously.
"Remember, I'm not the one making blogs intended to try to tear the good efforts of others down."
What efforts besides promotion? The only efforts I see are from the people that went independent.
"Notice how there are no anti-RBEF blogs? Think about it."
Because we know what we are doing and the Venus Project doesn't? I know, it's sad but here we are.
"Basically you say "It's time to jump ship because a few bad apples spoil the barrel" and it's just silly."
People branch out, it's natural- it's not "just silly".
"The only thing you're showing by splintering off (and this goes for all the RBEF guys) is your own limitations in communicating effectively."
You're talking to someone that use to be a COMMUNICATION MOD in TZM and I left because TZM as a whole had bad communication skills and it still continues to show to this day.
"The very same problems you take with you to the next splinter group. Instead of working against TZM / TVP, suggest you solve those communication problems and you won't have to deride TZM / TVP to make yourselves feel better."
I'm not working with or against them, we're independent. What do you not understand about that?
"BranMan, am sorry that you left, but if you think these ideas are going to succeed without our first becoming experts in communication, forgiveness, and compassion, you are indeed mistaken."
TZM lack everything mentioned, so TZM will most likely fail in that aspect.
"If you think these ideas are going to succeed because every time things don't go to your ideal, you splinter off and join some other effort (with the same extant issues), you're mistaken."
Branching off is not an immature thing to do, trust me- I took a lot of mental abuse in TZM before I decided to bounce. It wasn't just one thing that made me pack my bags.
"The most ridiculous thing is that this blog even exists."
The most ridiculous thing is that you post here as if you know what you are talking about.
"It's like kids who didn't get a cookie before their dinner saying how mom's a monster."
Bad analogy.
"But keep it up, I say; from all measurable evidence, your ridiculous hypocrisy is helping us get more members."
Do you just throw in random words to come off intelligent? Because that sentence didn't make sense at all. TZM is filled with hypocrisy and empty rhetoric, so don't throw that at us.
"When you grow up and realize how the dynamics to these challenging efforts actually work, you're welcome to come back and help."
When you realize that TZM is nothing but the advertisement arm for their own films, we'll welcome you in RBOSE and RBEF.
BranManFloMore said this on June 15, 2010 at 2:55 pm

"he only thing you're showing by splintering off (and this goes for all the RBEF guys) is your own limitations in communicating effectively."
No. VTV and Thunder and azzie and et all are evil people, and working with them is a waste of time and energy.
It is not our fault that this is so; all we are doing is pointing out what is real.
The fault does not lie with us, it lies with them.
"The very same problems you take with you to the next splinter group."
The problems are not ours, they belong to the abusive people at TVP/TZM.
"Instead of working against TZM / TVP, suggest you solve those communication problems"
I was banned for trying to help them with those problems, and for pointing out that VTV was flagrantly breaking the rules by attacking "Jeremy."
They are evil people, and they can't and won't be helped.
"and you won't have to deride TZM / TVP to make yourselves feel better."
Its not about making ourselves feel better. Its about telling the truth to the public about an evil organization.
"BranMan, am sorry that you left, but if you think these ideas are going to succeed without our first becoming experts in communication, forgiveness, and compassion,"
Hes far advanced ahead of most people on all those counts.
" you are indeed mistaken.
If you think these ideas are going to succeed because every time things don't go to your ideal,"
again, we are not at fault here, TZM/TVP is.
These are not our ideals, they are the facts of reality objectively.
"you splinter off and join some other effort (with the same extant issues),"
Those issues are not problems at RBEF.
They could be but I am slowly working on a solid metaprocess.
" you're mistaken.
The most ridiculous thing is that this blog even exists. It's like kids who didn't get a cookie before their dinner saying how mom's a monster."
Thats an ignorant and stupid ad hominem attack without substance or merit.
"But keep it up, I say; from all measurable evidence, your ridiculous hypocrisy is helping us get more members. "
Somehow i doubt that.
"When you grow up and realize how the dynamics to these challenging efforts actually work, you're welcome to come back and help."
I don't think they would welcome me in, they would have to actually behave and not be evil basterds, or i'd call them on it again.
Since they are evil basterds and abusive and manipulative people to start with, they aren't going to change.
The only hope for the movement to succeed is for them to ban the right people- VTV, Thunder, and the abusive and evil basterd mods.
prometheuspan said this on June 17, 2010 at 4:37 am | Reply

[...] Zeitgeist Movement entrance test results [...]
Zeitgeist Blogs: Zeitgeist is a Mind Heist « Zeitgeist Movement Exposed said this on November 10, 2010 at 9:12 pm | Reply

[...] the past, when the quiz [cheat sheet is there] was created, the cult, the Zeitgeist Movement had many debates about this [...]
The Quiz Discussions Silenced « The Zeitgeist Movement Examined said this on February 3, 2011 at 10:32 pm | Reply

Thanks for the answers, I will post this on the Anti Zitgeist sites so the trolls can bypass it. No other forum makes you do tests, this proves the Zitgeist movement and the Penis project hates free speech.
Dumb said this on April 19, 2011 at 4:55 pm | Reply

I answered every question perfectly, following the exact layout on this site, yet I got 18/20. THIS TEST IS RIGGED!
Dumb said this on April 19, 2011 at 5:15 pm | Reply

How handy, now if I only wanted to go back :-)
I sometimes think to myself quietly, that if anyone wanted TZM to not succeed, this test would be the way to keep out the hoards of interested people from joining their main forum.
But I'm sure it isn't a conspiracy, its just a case of shooting yourself in the foot, whilst trying to solve the issue of people disagreeing on your site..
Which leads nicely to this point:
> There are no anti RBEF blogs because RBEF is leaderless and
> is group orientated and democratic unlike TZM.
I wouldn't describe it as like that, I see leaders, but it is more group orientated, and there is some democracy.
But I'd say its main strength is that it is very hard to get banned there for just disagreeing! (Come to think of it, I'm not sure anyone has been banned for that..)
As such, we can all have a good debate about issues and thrash out ideas until we are all spent, and if those in charge listen, great, if not, oh well.
At least you still have a home to chat to others, to find like minded souls who think the same way you do and pair off with them.
As such, it operates like a hub, rather like the old TVP forums did.
Nanos said this on May 25, 2011 at 6:08 pm | Reply




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The Burger KingPosted: Jun 20, 2013 - 00:34
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I can't stop posting pictures of poop, what the fuck is wrong with me?

Level: 5
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Conspiracy Science on why TZM is failing June.14.2010 42 60
2 part

http://web.archive.org/web/20110805225750/http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/06/14/conspiracy-science-on-why-tzm-is-failing/


http://conspiracyscience.com/articles/the-zeitgeist-movement/



The Zeitgeist Movement - A Critical Review

Author: Edward L Winston
Added: June 13, 2010
Discuss: Discuss this article.

Over the last couple of months, mainly since Zeitgeist Movement (TZM) members began trekking to our forums, I've gotten a lot of emails from TZM members asking me various questions. This post is to outline the topics covered in my correspondence with said members.

I'll likely update this page as I get feedback from people.

Table of Contents

Peter Joseph

Movies Aren't the Movement

Fuck Everyone Else

What are YOU doing?

General Problems

Future of TZM

What I Would Change

Further Reading

Primarily the issues discussed are why I believe TZM will fail and why I think it's impossible to find common ground with TZM. I want to be clear that, given a different set of circumstances which I will discuss, maybe TZM could be successful and we could find common ground, but if things don't change, neither will my stance.

Peter Joseph

The leader of TZM, Peter Joseph, is far more damaging to his own movement than I imagine many of the hardcore members want to believe:

He's a conspiracy theorist.
His movies are fairly clear about that, but also his rantings on other web sites as well. The most common response to this from members is the phrase the movies aren't the movement, but I'll get into that later. He isn't stupid, however, because he knows that being an open truther is a detriment, he rarely talks about about 9/11, but he will ban members for debunking 9/11 conspiracy theories, but not ban members for promoting them -- but meanwhile claiming that the reason the debunker was banned was because the movement isn't about 9/11 [ read more ]

He's smug, arrogant, and not even close to charming.
Success in social movements, especially ones that are fringe, need someone who is perceivably in touch with the average person, but Peter Joseph is not -- this is why the Tea Party movement is much more successful. He's closed off from the rest of the world for the most part, and until recently barely showed his face outside of ZDay. He goes out of his way to attack his perceived enemies, rather than one-upping them. When he's called a hero, which occurred twice in this thread alone, he does not deny it, instead he talks about how much time and effort he's sacrificed for the "movement." It's not sexy and it's not impressive, especially when the movement has never done a single thing to help another human being.

He has the inability to be wrong
Peter Joseph will often hang on to a belief that has no purpose and is detrimental to him, simply because he does not want to be perceived as being incorrect. He's never admitted to being incorrect about anything outside of a typo, or some vague reference. He used both Alex Jones and Helena Blavatsky as sources, then later on claimed he never had heard of Alex Jones or had read anything by Helena Blavatsky, because they're both quacks.
More could be said about Peter Joseph, and is said in later sections, but our forums are full of former TZM members who shed even more light on the emerging cult of personality around him.

The most important issue here is that Peter Joseph is the leader of TZM and his word is law, despite claiming that he doesn't consider himself the leader, he acts unilaterally to forbid members for talking to outsiders, for example banning members who post on our forums that aren't glorifying him.

Movies Aren't the Movement

Something that I never stop hearing is the phrase the movies aren't the movement. This referring to the fact that the movies promote conspiracy theories, but TZM is something else entirely, and exists separately from the movement. I would believe that if not for the following issues:

The movement originated out of the movies, and has the same name. Whether or not you desire for people to equate them, they always will.

Peter Joseph uses the movement to attack people, such as myself and others, who disagree with his films -- if they were truly separate, he wouldn't do this.

Members at meetings still show the films, the films are passed out to promote the movement, and even Peter Joseph himself says that the movies are the primary way they recruit new members.

The Zeitgeist movie web site links to The Zeitgeist Movement on the Activism page.

Most hardcore members are conspiracy theorists, a search on the forums alone shows hundreds of references to the earthquake in Haiti being "man made."

Once you have to start explaining to people that the movies and movement aren't the same, the battle is lost, you're already a laughing stock. Just like how the Communist Party has to explain how the Soviet Union/China/etc isn't what they had in mind either.

Fuck Everyone Else

A lot of people don't like that I use foul language, but I needed to display the utter lack of compassion for other human beings TZM leadership seems to have, as well as some hardcore members. The situation in Haiti, again, is a great example of this -- reading many posts on the forums from members, it's quite clear that unless The Venus Project (TVP) is going to be the solution to the problems in Haiti, there's no use in helping them after the earthquake there.

What are YOU doing?

I get asked "well, what are YOU doing to improve the world?" by TZM members a lot. I constantly bring up that I volunteer pretty much every weekend and I donate 10% of my income to charity, and a lot of time I will donate more than that. Most come back with the fact "charity doesn't fix the problem." While they're right that charity doesn't fix the problem permanently, sitting on a forum doesn't either -- though some members have the audacity to claim that TZM is a charity, despite never lifting a finger for anyone else.

The example I use when talking to TZM members about this is:


If you saw a starving/dying man in the street, would you do something to help him, or would you say "once our movement gets to 50 million members, I'll be able to help you, but until then, see you later!"?


That's essentially the logic behind the leadership of TZM and what many members parrot to me, just in a much nicer way. They love talking about how many children are starving to death today, but they refuse to help them today, and instead speak of some far off future that they can't figure out how to get to.

I know and understand that not all TZM members are like this. I've seen some wonderful generosity and so forth coming from members, but more often than not, these members also don't follow Peter Joseph blindly, because the one who do, refuse to help anyone else.

General Problems

Here's a list of problems that I believe TZM has:

There's no leadership accountability. Peter Joseph is the de facto leader of TZM, there's absolutely no democratic, technocratic, or meritocratic way for anyone else to effect change within the movement. If there was, I imagine that the movies and conspiracy theories would be pushed even further away, and Peter Joseph would no longer be center stage -- which is why it won't happen.

The members are perceived as conspiracy theorists and the movement a conspiracy movement, despite all of the effort members put into claiming this isn't the case -- just because you say the movies aren't the movement, doesn't mean that people will buy it.

They make no effort to actively help anyone. If they want people to trust that they can improve the world, they need to show that they are capable of it, until then they're just a forum on the Internet like any other. I often talk about how the single mother with two kids in daycare and three jobs has no reason to listen to them, so why should she? Until they can actively provide a reason for her to, she'll never give a shit, and neither will anyone else.

The movement is primarily idealistic young people, not qualified engineers, scientists, and so forth. Despite the fact that the movement promotes anti-credentialism (attacking people with credentials, and trusting those that have none) they still desire to have members that do have credentials to make themselves look credible.

No one cares about ZDay. This is the yearly big meeting of TZM, and in 2009 Peter Joseph said that if things kept growing at the current rate by 2010 they would be in Madison Square Garden. Well, they weren't and ZDay was a flop outside of a few big cities with a terrible turn out. The main motive, media attention, failed to work as well, because outside of member-written articles, there was essentially no mention of it at all.

The movement is perceived as anti-religious, this is in part due to the first film, but also because Peter Joseph and hardcore members still promote Acharya S as some kind of super-scholar. Anti-religion didn't work for the Communist Party in the United States, and it sure as hell isn't going to work for TZM.

Criticism, even constructive criticism, is taboo within TZM and often leads to members (even ones that have been around since the beginning and are very useful to the movement) to be banned.

Peter Joseph is more concerned with being right, than being useful -- discussed in his section above. Despite making claims like "11 = 12" he claims his critics, such as myself, are actually the ones who are "intellectually inhibited" and are thus "mentally ill." Calling your critics mentally ill isn't a great way to succeed, again this is a situation where one-upping them by showing you mean what you say would work better, but he'd rather just hurl insults.

Peter Joseph claims that the people on the TZM mailing list are active members, when in reality about 1/10th the amount even signed up for the forums. He's a long way off from 50 million members, a number which he's mentioned should be reached before anything useful can happen with the movement.

Many of the defenders of the movies (usually the ones who are also screaming the movies aren't the movement) actually believe them, not only that on the forums countless members promote pseudoscience.

There could be more added here later.

Future of TZM

I don't really see a future for TZM outside of degrading to hardcore members. Peter Joseph talks about a new movie coming out in October of 2010 that's going to get "millions" of new members, so essentially nearly 2 years of doing nothing but waiting for yet another film are what TZM has to show for.

I think it's all a shame, however, because getting all of those people together could have done something, could have lead to actual success in some way, but it's not even close to that. This hasn't stopped members from discussing the transition to the Resource Based Economy, despite the fact they're discussing step 10,000 when they haven't even reached step 1 and don't seem to want to.

At this point is essentially a way to stroke Peter Joseph's ego rather than accomplish any goals.

What I Would Change

Sometimes I'm asked what I'd change about TZM, in order to make it more acceptable. Well, while I don't think most of these changes are possible due to the way TZM is run, I usually humor those who ask:

Make leadership accountable to members: a mix of democratic and technocratic hierarchy.

Create a criticisms forum: even I have a corrections forum and don't ban people for claiming I'm wrong.

Actually listen to what members have to say.

Ditch the movies and shut down the movie site, create a video saying the movies have seriously nothing to do with the movement and tell members not to hand them out anymore.

Change the name, it's already the butt of ridicule.

So, essentially my "5 point plan" is completely incompatible with a movement where Peter Joseph is the overlord.

Further Reading

Would you like to know more?

Blog: The Zeitgeist Movement: Conspiracies Are Us!
http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/blog/2010/05/06/the-zeitgeist-movement-conspiracies-are-us/

Blog: A Response to the Zeitgeist Movement's Diagnosis of "Intellectual Inhibition."
http://web.archive.org/web/20110810144459/http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/blog/2010/05/07/a-response-to-the-zeitgeist-movements-diagnosis-of-intellectual-inhibition/

Blog: TZM/Peter Joseph want to drag you into the abyss
http://web.archive.org/web/20110714172619/http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/blog/2010/05/04/tzm-and-peter-joseph-want-to-drag-you-into-the-abyss/

Blog: Zeitgeist Movement Blunders
http://web.archive.org/web/20110807122234/http://conspiracyscience.com/blog/2009/09/21/zeitgeist-movement-blunders/

Blog: What I learned about conspiracy theorists
http://web.archive.org/web/20110728122633/http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/blog/2009/09/16/what-i-learned-about-conspiracy-theorists/

Forum: What do the Zeitgeist Movement chapters do? (Answer: essentially nothing)
http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/forum/497/what-do-the-zeitgeist-movement-chapters-do/

Forum: Letter To Peter Merola
http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/forum/384/letter-to-peter-merola/

Forum: Peter BANNED me from the ZGM
http://other.skepticproject.com/forum/224/peter-banned-me-from-the-zgm-p/


Please post your replies to Conspiracy science using the discuss here link:

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Anticultist blog comments



I'm sure you'll get some nice replies soon from well adjusted individuals.
Applicable image: http://i34.tinypic.com/2lmqxs8.jpg
Eric said this on June 14, 2010 at 2:55 am | Reply

That made my day.
BranManFloMore said this on June 14, 2010 at 11:05 pm | Reply

lol the entire premise of this article is false because TZM is simple NOT failing, and is growing and succeeding everyday. sorry to burst your bubble. I talk to people and hand out information on a daily basis to people who are excited and intrigued by a new direction.
Not only are the movies NOT the movement, Peter is NOT the leader. There IS NO LEADER in TZM. Leadership is another word for EVIL.
Keep falling in line with the status quo, keep "volunteering" and donating that 10% tithe like a good little boy. sadly for you, we don't need you to succeed, but you're still more than welcome to join us.
three said this on June 14, 2010 at 12:56 pm | Reply

You really do not get it do you. There is a leader in fact there are a set of leaders. Peter Joseph Merola, Jacque Fresco and Roxanne Meadows. They dictate the direction of the group , they dictate its tenets, they dictate what can and can not be done in the movement and on its forum. They dictate what is the aim and the goals, they dictate who is allowed in the movements forum and chapters, they dictate.
Yes you hand out the movies and the rhetoric of the movement dictated by its leaders.
The movies are the movement, they are the main recruiting mechanisms for its members. To try and seperate them is simply a lie. It is a transparent attempt to distance yourselves from what you all really are...Conspiracy theorists.
Falling in line with the status quo ? What by disagreeing with your lies ?
Helping people rather than doing nothing? Of course thats usually the best option to fix things
You won't succeed, are not succeeding and will not be getting any help from us. All you do is talk about the future and use no science, you provide no humanitarian problem solving, you simply talk as if you are moraly superior when in fact you are just an internet group doing nothing for anyone.
Basically you have just failed at defending yourself from the article and proven that its points are completely valid.
Well done.
anticultist said this on June 14, 2010 at 3:16 pm | Reply

you're tone is laughable. you talk as if you are in the movement and have any idea of its organization. peter is probably the most prominent figure, so yes, nut bags like you are going to latch on to him and claim him as our Almighty Leader. go ahead, it just shows how clueless you are.
If i wanted to, i could make my own videos, and pass them out. and thousands of ZM members HAVE made their own videos.
I volunteer at a local green house, completely run by the community, where we feed thousands of inner city families each year. how is this not action? how many zeitgeist members have you polled to know that "we dont volunteer"
your arguments are baseless and are based on a very small sample set of people in the movement. The movement is open to ALL ideas in the areas of technology, science, biology, physics, astronomy, in order to better society. so to say that PJ is our leader is FOOLISH. YES he has made the BEST documentary to date illustrating our ideas. and for that he has become a prominent figure.
three said this on June 14, 2010 at 9:54 pm

Ah well your tone is equally laughable because I was in the movement and you have absolutely no idea apparently. I was in it from the beginning and read and particpated in everything.
And good I am happy you personally do something, but your movement does nothing.
So while you want to play I am bigger than you blah blah. I suggest you pipe down with your nonsense and drift along.
He has not made the best documentary to present your ideas actually, future by design was "better" than it or at least more complete. His movies are based on conspiracy theories with an added little section about TVP at the end to make you feel good after all the doom and gloom exaggerations.
anticultist said this on June 14, 2010 at 10:00 pm

but you fail to realize that I AM the movement. Every member in the movement is THE MOVEMENT. so if i do volunteering and work for the people of the earth, THE MOVEMENT ALSO DOES IT.
Sorry, Ive seen Future By Design and I think Zeitgeist: Addendum is way better. The narration, music, slides, descriptions, information far surpasses Future by design... unless you really like cheesy 80s music.
I'm guessing someone along the way pissed you off, hurt your poor little ego, and now youre on a mission to tarnish a good thing by spending way too much time on this blog. hope youre satisfied.
lastly, who CARES if Peter's movie is 1/2 conspiracies? This article is FROM A CONSPIRACY WEB SITE. why is a conspiracy theory site anti-conspiracy movie?
Jacques, Roxanne, and Peter are great people and will help change the world - sorry you'll have to watch from sidelines.
three said this on June 15, 2010 at 1:56 am

oh dear you are trying to attack me and not deal with the material in the OP, well it is not working.
The fact you can not even see that defending conspiracies is going to make the movement fail in the public realm and academic realms is actually rather sad. It shows how little research you have actually done, as well as how little you understand the mind of the majority of the world, you claim them sheep but those sheep will become wolves to your movement as soon as they know about your beliefs.
You missed every point in the OP and it is your failing not ours that you can not even admit your weaknesses and correct them.
anticultist said this on June 15, 2010 at 2:08 am

oh nos! academia isn't going to like the conspiracies! we better change the name!
and sorry if i "attacked" you, but is what i said not true? should be noted that 1/2 the OP is an all out attack on 1 person in the movement, Peter Joesph.
I read all the points in OP, and they're all ridiculous, just like everything else on this blog and on conspiracy science.
400k members, but "some don't post on the forum"... oh ok.... well they all signed up - which means they took the time and made a decision to join the movement... how many people have signed up for your blog?
The first Zeitgeist movie is a little too much with the conspiracies, ill give you that. But Addendum is really all facts. Yes, doom and gloom... sorry about that - truth hurts. The entire 2nd half offers solutions to freeing the people of this planet.
no amount of volunteering will save the people of Greece from corrupt bankers, or starving people in Africa who we tell cannot burn coal because its not "Green". Volunteering wont stop profiteering for war by the US and other countries. Writing this blog wont prevent another BP Deep Horizon leak. you actually don't realize how LITTLE you do - and when you do its probably just to make yourself feel better.
the reason you think we say "fuck everyone else" (which is obviously hyperbolic) is because for the past 200 years its been "fuck everyone" by the people who run the world. We are now presenting the facts to liberate humanity, and if people (like you) are going to reject FACTS about the EARTH and how we CAN live.... then you must like the current system, thereby we cannot mesh.
three said this on June 15, 2010 at 1:00 pm

using a number of inactive members to say thats active membership is BS. I have no idea how many people signed up here, if they even can but thats not important since im not trying to change the world and be a leader.
hey truth hurts you are right there...thats why you are bitching about the OP here, you got your nose all bent out of shape because you got butthurt.
By the way you do realise the OP is written by Edward from conspiracy science and theres even a link to go and chat with him ?
But you could keep crying in public here for us all to chuckle at.
anticultist said this on June 15, 2010 at 1:10 pm

If you held yourselves to the same standards that you hold the movement, you'd realize that it takes more than criticism and a "holier than thou" attitude for such a massive effort to succeed in it's goals. I'm sorry the movement doesn't meet your high standards, but you yourself do not either, otherwise you'd be doing working to solve the problems, instead of just point fingers. I contend your blog is proof of this.
This article is empty, just another troll post from Anticultist and his merry band of people who think they know better, but have nothing to show for it.
(Anticultist: please stop editing posts that don't agree with you)
Joseph Matthew said this on June 14, 2010 at 6:57 pm | Reply

Wrong it is not empty it is precise and to the point and you have not been able to argue against it.
The standards that Peter comes up to are of his own making, he decided what he wanted to do with his movies, then decided afterwards he wanted to change the world we all live in. The standards and goals he has set himself are higher than anyone elses, in fact his goals are of biblical proportions, of a utopian cult proportion.
And he is failing to even get his group to do a single thing other than promote itself, hide behind lies and go against the rest of society because YOU think you are holier than thou. You are the ones with the big claims of being the ones to save the world not us.
So now you have had your little spout of hot air and provided nothing of substance to counter the article Edward wrote good bye.
anticultist said this on June 14, 2010 at 7:02 pm | Reply

Look, I was correct in my assessment! I bet this means I am never wrong just like Peter Joseph.
Eric said this on June 14, 2010 at 7:47 pm | Reply

Well since Peter Joseph Merola is wrong on so much I think this makes you more correct than him so far.
But we will see how correct you are with more information and posting.
anticultist said this on June 14, 2010 at 8:12 pm | Reply

I'm Eric from Conspiracy Science forums by the way.
Eric said this on June 14, 2010 at 9:26 pm

Ah thank goodness, I was wondering when you put your didn't read gif that you were saying you had not read the OP, my bad and my misinterpretation.
Apologies for any bad karma that came out in my text towards you. I removed my initial sarcastic reply to your original post as it was my misinterpreting.
anticultist said this on June 14, 2010 at 9:34 pm

"If you held yourselves to the same standards that you hold the movement,"
I do. I'm working on Anticultist, he may come around eventually.
"you'd realize that it takes more than criticism and a "holier than thou" attitude for such a massive effort to succeed in it's goals."
yes, thats OUR point, isn't it?
"I'm sorry the movement doesn't meet your high standards,"
There is no movement. There is only a cult of personality in three tiers based on Armageddon theology repackaged for atheists.
Those are not my standards, they come from science facts and cult
psychology.
"but you yourself do not either, otherwise you'd be doing working to solve the problems,"
I am. The problem is, i don't have hundreds of people to work with. Everyones wasting their time with TVP.TZM and I'm the guy with the answers. Who was banned from the cult for pointing out that VTV was breaking the rules and attacking somebody.
"instead of just point fingers. I contend your blog is proof of this."
I contend that this blog serves its purpose and that you miss that purpose at your own fault, not Anticultists.
"This article is empty, just another troll post from Anticultist and his merry band of people who think they know better, but have nothing to show for it."
I'm sorry, but this ad hominem is too lame to answer directly or
even do anything more than take note of as such.
"(Anticultist: please stop editing posts that don't agree with you)"
It is within the pervue of the right functioning of this blog to
edit posts for it. If you have a specific objection to an edit
which seems unfair, please let me know about it. Otherwise, my assumption must be that hes doing his job.
Otherwise I'd be wasting even more of my time on this.
prometheuspan said this on June 14, 2010 at 10:35 pm | Reply

This particular article is amazing, its hard hitting, its lucid, very good work!
:)
prometheuspan said this on June 14, 2010 at 10:36 pm | Reply

I agree. I can hear TZM saying "ouch".
BranManFloMore said this on June 14, 2010 at 11:03 pm | Reply

I am sorry but your article is very opinion based and lacks facts. Even if you disagree with TZM and dont like Peter its hard to disagree with their facts. The message that the TZM has is clear and factual no matter who says it or who champions it. A monetary base system is the cause of most of our societal problems. It is time for us to evolve to a better system.
KB said this on June 14, 2010 at 10:55 pm | Reply

It lacks no facts whatsoever, it points out the straight forward problems of the movement and to be quite honest with you if you can not see them it is not down to the lack of evidence it is down to your lack of judgement and bias.
The article says it exactly how it is, it provides links it provides common sense rationale and it does not hold punches. If you think this article is bad wait till the rest of society begins to post about the next zeitgeist movie and then starts to focus in on your cult of personality.
anticultist said this on June 14, 2010 at 11:00 pm | Reply

Actually, the article is based on facts and then you try to scapegoat to complaining about the monetary system, that's pretty shifty. I think you should actually read the article, it was clear and straight to the point- then evolve yourself. Lets see if the Zeitgeist Movement learns from it's mistakes or continues to fail. Never mind, I think the ship is sinking, so why bother communicating with you all.
BranManFloMore said this on June 14, 2010 at 11:02 pm | Reply

What facts? The facts from the movies that are simultaneously not part of the movement? This "better system" you want to evolve to, do you even know what it is or how to get there? Do you really believe there will be no problems in it? - that all the problems in the current system will suddenly be solved and that no new ones will arise? Where is YOUR evidence for this?
And don't tell me science will solve our problems. Science is great, but it is really SLOW. Why? Because it spends a lot of time being SKEPTICAL and PEER-REVIEWING rather than jumping to conclusions like TZM does. Not to mention the ideology of TZM is not supported by science.
domokato said this on June 14, 2010 at 11:22 pm | Reply

ProMeTheUsPan Clan FTW.
BranManFloMore said this on June 14, 2010 at 10:56 pm | Reply

TZM members: I am god.
petermerola said this on June 14, 2010 at 11:10 pm | Reply

hahaha ok we have ourselves a comedy moment.
anticultist said this on June 14, 2010 at 11:10 pm | Reply

Well, at least the "g" is lower-cased.
BranManFloMore said this on June 14, 2010 at 11:13 pm

I'm curious as to why you spend so much time referring to a movement that, from the tone of your articles, you feel is small, useless, and ultimately will disappear.
I'm also curious as to why you seem to care more about Peter Joseph than the people 'in the movement'.
I'm a 'member' if there is such a thing. It is my experience that the zeitgeist movement acts as a sort of guide to, and promotion of, alternative ideas revolving around a sustainable society. Groups like this will always have those teen followers who do little else besides sit on the forums and spout slogans about change. In fact a large number of people, while appreciating the communication of these ideas to others, do not like that the zeitgeist movement doesn't actually end up doing anything to bring about these ideas in practice.
This is why a large number of offshoots have arisen, taking some part they agree with and trying to find real world applications. Things such as, open source applications and platforms, statistical based decision engines, sustainable housing concepts, sustainable food system concepts, sustainable water systems, sustainable energy systems, alternative economic systems, and more are being developed and actually applied. While many of the groups and people doing this aren't doing so under the name of, or in official association with, the zeitgeist movement, they were nonetheless inspired by it to take this direction.
I really do not understand what the purpose of this blog is or what good you hope it will accomplish. It seems to me your time would be better spent ignoring the zeitgeist movement completely and instead using your blogging powers to promote things you feel will actually help society. Unless, of course, you do this simply because you like the attention and the revenue your ads generate.
Thank you to anyone who bothered to take the time to read this.
Dustin VanDeBerg said this on June 15, 2010 at 12:25 am | Reply

Well thats the thing there is a moderator post saying that any off shoots are not validated by the movement itself, and they are free to do what they want but not under the label of the movement.
We here and in other places appreciate people doing things to change things and help society out now, and anyone who actually uses science is respected [rather than talk about science and not use it]
We see problems with the movement and its members, if you see them too then you should not worry about it and take personally as if we are attacking you. If you are innnocent this does not concern you and rather it concerns the people we are addressing who will know who they are.
This blog is to present a voice of dissaproval concerning matters otherwise ignored, deleted, and banned on the forums for any critical thinkers to peruse. Simple.
I dont generate any revenue from ads, the ad I have here actually provides money to aid charity water, but it requires interaction by concerned people who want to help. And I am helping society I am making them aware that there is a conspiracy movement masquerading as a humanitarian movement that does nothing for anyone.
anticultist said this on June 15, 2010 at 12:35 am | Reply

I have mixed feelings regarding the moderation. It can cause problems because, as this article articulates, it can create uneasy feelings of censorship and that something is amiss. However, I also have seen many forums, which are for the most part excellent in regards to science, political, and social issues discussion destroyed because of flame wars, trolling, and constant negativity and criticism. There have been numerous threads on TZM forums criticizing various aspects of TZM, including ones I've posted. In fact one of mine made it onto this blog a long time ago. I think that really it's all about miscommunication and agitation as a result of articles like this. It gets to the point where both sides have misconceptions about the other such that they feel it's not worth it to waste time trying to 'win over' the opposition, and instead to just bury it and move on.
I'm not really understanding why you place great achievement and importance on doing things, yet scorn those that teach or inspire. As I said I feel that the zeitgeist movement has been a great tool in communicating and teaching ideas that many people would not otherwise have been exposed to. These people then go on to actually find ways of implementing these ideas. I'm sure you would agree that someone who applied science towards coming up for a cure for cancer should be held up as a good example. Yet I doubt you'd complain that the educational institution that this someone attended only talked about science rather than using it. You may argue that an educational institution is different as it doesn't promote conspiracies or other concepts you believe to be false. However educational institutions do this too. I've been very disappointed in regards to various business class teachings, the performance of student run senates, and other administrative actions.
I'm curious. Before you started this blog did you take the time to personally talk to Peter Joseph or go on Fresco's tour? It's a long shot, but perhaps a greater understanding of both your position as well as those of PJ could be exchanged in polite conversations with one another.
As a completely separate matter I was looking at the ads on this blog and noticed that in order to help provide water to third world countries, in this case Haiti, you have to do various corporate promotions. One of them listed was Niki. Given the knowledge available as to the problems large corporations cause in third world countries, from taking that countries resources, to sweat shop labor, to environmental damage, it could be argued that participating in this charity results in more overall damage from supporting these corporations than the countries receive from the water. But again this really has nothing to do with the rest of this post.
Dustin VanDeBerg said this on June 15, 2010 at 1:12 am

I will leave this reply to Bran because he personally met Fresco and did all the touring, he is an ex moderator of the movement.
But regarding the posit of an academic debate about cures of course we would not pour disdain upon something that would actually help humanity, but for cancer its a losing battle that noone has managed to beat. Similar to the problems in humanity without testing, peer review and physical evidences it is just another pseudo scientific claim with little regard for the scientific process. Anti credentialism is rife in the movement and to be truthful this is very scary because these are the people who you all claim will bring about change.
Your members/admin claim things like the geeks will rule the world the scientific method says so, yet you all hate on academia. What is that all about ?
Regarding the ad, I checked it out and found no evidence of misrepresentation so as far as I was aware it was a good cause I could do while blogging, I wanted to at least make some difference when posting here, and this was set up the day I started. Sadly not as many people have got involved, there is only a use of adverts and questions to generate revenue, no buying and you can by pass it at any point you wish it will still generate revenue.
anticultist said this on June 15, 2010 at 1:30 am

"I'm curious as to why you spend so much time referring to a movement that, from the tone of your articles, you feel is small, useless, and ultimately will disappear."
Have you felt on AntiCultist? Can anyone say "sexual harassment"?
"I'm also curious as to why you seem to care more about Peter Joseph than the people 'in the movement'."
Because we left the movement and see a lot of flaws that we can't just ignore.
"I'm a 'member' if there is such a thing."
Oh, you have to be one according to their rules.
"It is my experience that the zeitgeist movement acts as a sort of guide to, and promotion of, alternative ideas revolving around a sustainable society."
No, it's just promotion, that's it. Even Thunder makes this shocking admission to GavinPalmer1984′s question:
http://thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=60&id=262132&limit=10&limitstart=20#267407
"Isn't the website a vital system for the transition toward a RBE?"
"Thunder: No."
It's right in your face but you guys don't notice it.
"In fact a large number of people, while appreciating the communication of these ideas to others, do not like that the zeitgeist movement doesn't actually end up doing anything to bring about these ideas in practice."
The communication team is a joke, so lets not go there.
"This is why a large number of offshoots have arisen, taking some part they agree with and trying to find real world applications."
Branching is natural, but we might have to branch off completely. You might want to check out RBEF & RBOSE. Seriously.
"I really do not understand what the purpose of this blog is or what good you hope it will accomplish."
Then I can establish the fact that you don't know how to read.
"It seems to me your time would be better spent ignoring the zeitgeist movement completely and instead using your blogging powers to promote things you feel will actually help society."
Nah, this is "social therapy" and maybe we can heal everyone mentally abused in TZM. Maybe.
"Unless, of course, you do this simply because you like the attention and the revenue your ads generate."
You got to love the cheap shot.
"Thank you to anyone who bothered to take the time to read this."
Thank you for wasting my time reading your comment.
BranManFloMore said this on June 15, 2010 at 12:43 am | Reply

Well hello again BranManFloMore. I couldn't help but smile when I saw your name because you recently commented on my Resume on the RBEF forums, though you were much more polite in your posts there.
No one likes Thunder. His posts are angry, sarcastic, and useless. I just ignore him.
As to the RBEF I will grant that they seem to be at least trying to accomplish something, which is why I'm there, but up to this point they haven't accomplished anything either. Can you point to something they've done that goes beyond text on a website? Has anything they've done actually interfaced with real world application? I'm not trying to bash the RBEF. I just don't understand your harsh opposition to TZM and high praise of RBEF.
Cheers and see you on the RBEF forums!
Dustin VanDeBerg said this on June 15, 2010 at 1:31 am

Any type of criticism is handled by being censored, deleted and/or having that person banned, all you have to do is look at PeterPan's case:
http://conspiracyscience.com/images/screenshots/tzm-forums-before-peterpan-deleted-and-locked.png
Those mixed feelings won't be so mixed much longer when you see all the censorship that has took place in the past either.
"There have been numerous threads on TZM forums criticizing various aspects of TZM, including ones I've posted. In fact one of mine made it onto this blog a long time ago. I think that really it's all about miscommunication and agitation as a result of articles like this."
No, it's online dictatorship.
"It gets to the point where both sides have misconceptions about the other such that they feel it's not worth it to waste time trying to 'win over' the opposition, and instead to just bury it and move on."
No, again- it's dictatorship and no one will just move on when they feel walked on.
"I'm not really understanding why you place great achievement and importance on doing things, yet scorn those that teach or inspire."
I don't understand why you still want to praise unprofessional behavior turned into abusive behavior.
"As I said I feel that the zeitgeist movement has been a great tool in communicating and teaching ideas that many people would not otherwise have been exposed to."
They can't communicate or debate when it comes to criticism, it's pretty bad.
"These people then go on to actually find ways of implementing these ideas."
No, they talk about the next ZDAY and talk about what Zeitgeist 3 is going to be about and how to promote it.
"I'm sure you would agree that someone who applied science towards coming up for a cure for cancer should be held up as a good example."
Those who apply it, yes. Has TZM apply that or logic or reason or common sense? No.
"Yet I doubt you'd complain that the educational institution that this someone attended only talked about science rather than using it."
'Talk is cheap'.
"You may argue that an educational institution is different as it doesn't promote conspiracies or other concepts you believe to be false. However educational institutions do this too."
I guess that's why it's important that people become self-taught and skeptical according to what they hear and read.
"I've been very disappointed in regards to various business class teachings, the performance of student run senates, and other administrative actions."
Yes, we all have our apathetic moments.
"I'm curious. Before you started this blog did you take the time to personally talk to Peter Joseph or go on Fresco's tour?"
I've talked to Peter Joseph through emails, the forum and IRC. Met Jacque Fresco & Roxanne Meadows at the Venus Project and still criticize, so what's your point?
"It's a long shot, but perhaps a greater understanding of both your position as well as those of PJ could be exchanged in polite conversations with one another."
Your assumptions are long shots because you don't know any of us.
"As a completely separate matter I was looking at the ads on this blog and noticed that in order to help provide water to third world countries, in this case Haiti, you have to do various corporate promotions. One of them listed was Niki. Given the knowledge available as to the problems large corporations cause in third world countries, from taking that countries resources, to sweat shop labor, to environmental damage, it could be argued that participating in this charity results in more overall damage from supporting these corporations than the countries receive from the water. But again this really has nothing to do with the rest of this post."
I noticed that the Zeitgeist Films were promoted by Artivist Festival with connections to an oil company or something:
http://www.oilwatchsudamerica.org/Brasil/protestas-por-auspicio-de-petrobras-a-artivist-festival-film-en-eeuu.html
Hmmm...
BranManFloMore said this on June 15, 2010 at 1:45 am | Reply

"Well hello again BranManFloMore."
"Hello again"?
"I couldn't help but smile when I saw your name because you recently commented on my Resume on the RBEF forums, though you were much more polite in your posts there."
Which person are you and why are you going by a different name?
"No one likes Thunder."
Agreed.
"His posts are angry, sarcastic, and useless. I just ignore him."
I feel sorry for your brain, I hope you don't build a tumor.
"As to the RBEF I will grant that they seem to be at least trying to accomplish something, which is why I'm there, but up to this point they haven't accomplished anything either."
It hasn't been that active lately but they have laid down more plans and action then TZM has for sure.
"Can you point to something they've done that goes beyond text on a website?"
I've been working with ProMeTheUsPan regarding to research and projects:
http://rbose.org/wiki/Prometheuspan_Clan#The_ProMeTheUsPan_Clan_Research
http://rbose.org/wiki/Prometheuspan_Clan#The_ProMeTheUsPan_Clan_Projects
I guess you thought you put me on the spot, huh?
"Has anything they've done actually interfaced with real world application?"
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Contact the Engine Unit if you want specifics.
"I'm not trying to bash the RBEF. I just don't understand your harsh opposition to TZM and high praise of RBEF."
Seriously? You make these sarcastic comments and you try to be Mr. Softy now? Man... I hope you don't give me problems at RBEF.
"Cheers and see you on the RBEF forums!"
Oh Boy!
BranManFloMore said this on June 15, 2010 at 1:55 am | Reply

"Seriously? You make these sarcastic comments and you try to be Mr. Softy now? Man... I hope you don't give me problems at RBEF."
My comments haven't been sarcastic and shouldn't be interpreted that way. From your posts it seems you treat this as some sort of verbal boxing match. I'm not interested in competition. I'm not interesting in 'winning' an argument. I'm interested in discussion and cooperation.
Dustin VanDeBerg said this on June 15, 2010 at 3:03 am | Reply

Sure, dumb it down now because I got you in a corner with your stupidity and yes, your comments were offensive and that's why I went at you the way I did. I wasn't trying to win an argument, I was just pointing out how immature you were acting with your comments and supplying information that backed up this blog. And again, who are you on RBEF?
BranManFloMore said this on June 15, 2010 at 3:22 am

the most awesome thing about the RBEF is that it is actually the same thing as TZM, which is great! OK yes, you might have a different way of doing a few things, and you want to make your own new organization, and thats fine. But seeing as how a major tenant of both RBEF and TZM is that the entire planet, and humanity, is one organism.... so anything RBEF does should obviously be supported. im just not sure why all the members are so bitter.
good luck to everyone. I hope we all can make some major changes soon.
three said this on June 15, 2010 at 1:19 pm | Reply

The bitterness comes from the fact Peter and Jacque restrict anyone doing any physical work or actual design and building. Therefore anyone who wants to get involved in physical movement and doing things is held back forever till they have their movies and themepark and 7 billion members.
The RBEF is nothing to do with TVP or TZM any more it is a seperate entity that does it own thing, yes its focus is on proving that RBE might be possible and wants to design software for various things.
Either way at the moment RBEF have done what appears to be more practical work than TZM have.
anticultist said this on June 15, 2010 at 1:31 pm | Reply

TZM has called RBEF spam and a fraud, so... yeah. They dismiss those who do real work, so what does that tell you? But hey, thanks for praising RBEF. And TZM is the entire planet? Man, the egotism never ceases to amaze me. I'm just not sure why you make such ignorant statements. Well, good luck to pretending that there is nothing wrong with TZM.
You are better off joining RBEF & RBOSE if you really care about the RBE direction:
http://conspiracyscience.com/forums/topic/article-the-zeitgeist-movement/page/3#post-8720
It's documented that TZM doesn't obviously, but go ahead- day dream all you want about how special TZM is.
BranManFloMore said this on June 15, 2010 at 1:36 pm | Reply

This is hilarious. The overall accomplishment of TZM is opening up people's awareness to a self-evident social direction. THAT IS ALL IT IS, and likely ever will be. And then, at some point, people might step back and realize that TZM was in fact not a plan of steps we must take, but rather the entire first step itself: changing the social consciousness by introducing unpopular ideas. People's minds must change before anything else will.
Can we stop expecting a PERFECT movement here? What movement in history has ever lived up to its potential? Every movement has had their fumbles.
Besides, what the fuck do you expect of a movement that is managed over the passive internet? Real movements have to happen with people actually interacting in person and that is why TZM is failing, and why ANY movement like it will fail. Think about it. You can't be further from changing the world than miles apart on the internet. How does anyone plan on transferring all of the information from cyberland to real world conferences? The TZM membership (and its offshoots) is diluted. Who can really afford to compensate for our geographical dispersion? Who can afford to meet with John Doe who lives across the country to really get things moving? The internet is not the place for social movements. It is a place to discuss ideas and widen awareness, and that is what TZM and any other daughter group will be able to do. NOTHING beyond that. All they can be is the surface of a workdesk. In the 1800s do you thing social change was ever actualized by a movement who's members communicated via mail? The internet is the same thing, just on a faster pony.
Also, what the hell do you expect? OF COURSE PJ, Fresco, and Roxanne will seem like the leaders. They are the only one's fucking doing anything! They are being prime movers. As long as they are the only ones making a dent in the real world, they will remain the admirable leaders. If we were to see John Doe's lecture on youtube, THEN the leadership will spread out, but as long as people remain passive over the internet, the prime movers will continue to be what they are: the power behind the movement. Duh? Seriously, what do you expect? This is how things pan out given the current circumstances. No one should be blamed for their leadership. Rather they completely reject their leadership or not, people will assume them as leaders regardless. That is the gravitation of our psychology.
You sitting around and caviling all the time is actually detrimental to the acceptance of TZM's overarching ideas that I'm sure both you and I accept. People will associate TZM/TVP's ideas with all of your criticism and much worthy information and ideas will be rejected outright, similar to what happened with the philosophical THEORY of communism. People rejected Marx based on the Soviet model without ever actually reading Marx to realize he was humanitarian not authoritarian. And so you will do the same with these techno-anarcho-communistic ideas. You will shut people off. Quit being a tabloid and give up on your revenge. BTW, if you are going to criticize, you should focus on the asshole moderators on the forum the most, because let's face it, they are at the root of why you are so spiteful. Your effort here is actually sort of irrational, because in the end what do you intend to accomplish? Let's say TZM falls apart thanks to your criticism. Then what? Will you start a new blog about a daughter group that fell into the same mistakes?
There are too many criticisms that simply come across as bitchy. You are reducing the complexity of TZM's development and throwing mud where you see appropriate. Things get complicated and fucked up. That happens with any situation involving communicating human beings. Much of your criticisms regarding the "leaders" of the movement rest purely upon your own personal judgments. You are being immature, juvenile, naive, oversightful, and reductionist regarding your assumptions and conclusions. Should I equate 90% of your criticisms with Fox News material?
I think we all would benefit here by reading a few books on social movements and cyberspace communication.
Nate said this on June 28, 2010 at 6:03 am | Reply

What is most hilarious is your reaction to the posts presented here. Sure you dont like the methods, sure you think I will be responsible for ruining something you think is good about TZM/TVP, but you and I know this is not true in reality. I have presented many facts about this movement, things that are absolutely relevant and well researched, whether you overlook them is not even of importance to me, what is important is your cheek here.
I dont expect anything from TZM or TVP because it is nothing but artwork, videos, unscientific claims and internet posts.
It will fail and is failing and the core ideas that may well be half good are not even the sole domain or ingenuity of TVP anyway. It has already been established that these thoughts were long written and considered by the likes of authors and thinkers in the early half of the 20th century. You would only have to read a few books by Buckminster Fuller, Herbert Marcuse, Lloyd Rodwin and many more to see them discuss planned obsolescence, automation, abundance of resources, technological unemployment, centralisation, freedom through technology etc.
If you think these ideas would dissapear because TVP or TZM was proven to be a con job or because people sought my information as a point of reference to counter theirs, then you are possibly over looking the fact the information was always there anyway and still will be. Perhaps you are dramatising the opinions we hold here a little too much. If TZM falls would I start a new blog? probably not I would leave this one standing as is and build on it and maybe continue writing about other things.
Your comments are actually no better than any other comments here I have made so how you can think you can lay claim to some authoritarian opinion and stand with credibility is quite funny.
The problems stem with flaws and bullshit exuding from TZM/TVP and this has always been a point this blog concentrates on, yes their admin are warped and we who post here are well aware of that and in fact it is and has been brought up in plenty of other forums and sites a lot. There is no need for me to repeat what has been said there here, I cover what I consider important topics to mention about the movement if you disagree it does not interest me the slightest.
The end result is TZM is and was failing without me making this blog, the reason I made the blog was to point out how much it is failing.
anticultist said this on June 28, 2010 at 9:01 am | Reply

What I would like to know, is how do you propose Fresco give credit to his sources? Should he mention Buckminister Fuller every other word? "Well Buckminister says..." "Well Skinner says...." "Well Marcuse says...and I, Mr. Fresco, say nothing because I'm simply a puppet of their ideas."
You fail to see that Fresco has accepted their ideas as TRUTH, therefore he has lost the obligation of citing them. We don't cite Robert Hooke when we are talking about cells. We don't cite James D. Watson and Francis Crick when discussing DNA. We don't cite William Buckland when discussing dinosaurs. But I have confidence in the people who forward their ideas to my awareness. Enter any college course and you will hear idea after idea without any reference to the origin of the idea. Expecting the origin of every idea to be accounted for is absurd and distractive. The origin is secondary and peripheral. This is true for introducing ideas. However, of course research or a published arguments should cite sources for the sake of preserving organization and bolstering the power of the argument/research. But PROFESSING ideas needs little of that. You have to capture people with profound ideas, and THEN reveal the history of the ideas (if the learner hasn't already discovered that themselves) once the learner is committed to the truth of the ideas..
All knowledge is serial when we assume past knowledge to be true. That is the reality. Fresco recognizes that and cuts past the bullshit. He sees the ideas as far more important than the thinkers who synthesized the ideas before him. You accusing him of STEALING ideas depends completely upon your personal values and how much you think those values justify your accusational finger pointing. He is a person passing on good ideas, period.
Your evidence is adequate when it comes to showing Fresco doesn't give credit. But what evidence can you provide that logically leads to the conclusion that Fresco is deliberately trying to TAKE/STEAL credit from past thinkers? That is an unsubstantiated claim that depends entirely upon your own personal judgment/interpretation. What justifies this accusation without a doubt?
You don't seem to have all sides of the issue in perspective to make an intellectually honest indictment.
Fresco keeps important ideas alive. The movement scrambles his effort and tends to get things twisted up. But a newcomer to these ideas my cross this blog and give up on pursuing TVP or TZM thereby abandoning enlightening ideas. That is the worry this blog gives me. It will shut people off to the core ideas. With enough time spent researching TZM's material many members eventually discover who originated the various ideas. But the way this blog is handled will shut off curious minds before they get there.
That's why this blog should be about where TZM gets its ideas from. Not a scandal tabloid. That way you correct any misinformation or misconceptions meanwhile maintaining unbiased commentary and an open door to future learners.
Nate said this on June 28, 2010 at 10:19 pm

I dont fail to see anything other than how Fresco can even take a single bit of credit for anything other than his drawings, I hope thats a clear enough answer for you ?
I have taken breathing for truth should I now start talking about oxygen and air as if its my concept worth trademarking ? Do you rememebr the RBE legal dispute at all? If not brush up on it because he attempted to take total credit for it, so I have a big problem with him. And the original is not peripheral in this instance as I think my reasoning should testify why.
People should stop promoting Fresco here or I wont approve their comments, the guy is a douche bag as far as I am concerned ok. I dont give a shit if they have met him, have all his videos and think hes fucking jesus, I am seriously not interested in people defending him, he is a charlatan.
Regarding what you think I should do with my own blog, well I have an idea for you. If you think I am doing it wrong and are aware of the original sources like I am I suggest goto wordpress sign up with an account and create a nice series of blogs showing TZM where the information all originated. And let's see how far you get before you have his fan club beating down on your door saying yes but Fresco is better because, or Fresco cites all his sources [which he doesnt, even in his books] or whatever other sad excuses they come up with to protect him.
Sorry Nate but I am not interested in being told what to do, but please be my guest and go do those ideas of yours on a blog I would read it.
And as a foot note Nate:
His fan club dont care about the original sources, I have tried this already they're already embedded into the cult of personality that is TVP.
anticultist said this on June 29, 2010 at 12:19 am


Anticultist blog comments continued...
http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/forum/5539/archiving-anticultist-blog-on-sp/3/#reply-9fa5520a


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#81 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
The Burger KingPosted: Jun 20, 2013 - 00:39
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I can't stop posting pictures of poop, what the fuck is wrong with me?

Level: 5
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Anticultist blog comments continued...


BTW, I hear over and over that TZM and it's daughter groups are trying to plan the transition to an RBE. Can someone give me the slightest inkling of theoretical progress? TZM and it's offshoots need to STOP being naive. Does everyone at TZM, RBEF, etc. honestly think they are going to develop a brand new coherent theoretical groundwork from start to finish? It's time to drop that delusion and submit to theoretical developments already underway that deal with changing the world as it already exists and in a practical way. The ideas of PARACON should be the transition stage. To achieve a resource based economy, TZM, RBEF, etc. need to integrate and collaborate with other social movements that are prepared to deal with the here and now. PARACON will give way to RBE at some point. RBE is the endpoint. There are current movements and theories that have developed the points in between. They all fail to see their connections. That should be the goal of TZM and it's offshoots: integrating the brilliant ideas already at hand, not trying to somehow create it's own brilliant ideas by amateurs. Beings the RBE movements envision the end point, they should assume the responsibility of aligning the ideas of other movements and theories to get there.
The work done on the RBE sites are interesting in themselves but are completely devoid of impact potential. But to be honest, the RBE movements really should give in to PARACON.
Nate said this on June 28, 2010 at 6:24 am | Reply

TZM wont stop being naive because they are group of people primarily males aged 18-27 mostly with little college education and of little exposure to the outside world and have probably not even travelled to other countries and stayed in other cultures. Therefore their world view is that of an ignoramous who thnks they know everything through their limited experiences.
The movement is also led by two unqualified people, one a man aged 94 who has failed at achieving his goals or even getting close to proving any of his claims in over 35 years, the other a conspiracy theorist who lays claims with use of pseudo intellectual statements he bases off his own biases and preferences for literature. It is hardly a solid footing the movement has in the first place and it is of little wonder to even the casual observer how ineffective this movement is and will remain.
Transition into a different system is not going to happen over night this is obvious, but it is also not going to happen through a conspiracy movement, the only time the transition will occur is when actual work is done and is accepted by the public as a reputable matter. You make out as if TZM/TVP are doing the effective ground work when all they are doing is showing movies about financial systems they know little about, or about 911 being an inside job, or religion being false or being anti credentialist. They are driving their potential market away because they have started off wrong and fucked it up before it even started. There is little chance of a return to salvage this because they have already put out so much media showing them take these stances that noone is going to forget or let them forget this.
So to summarise, they have ruined the chances of making anything happen or achieve a reputable image from anyone because of their own actions and opinions.
anticultist said this on June 28, 2010 at 9:15 am | Reply

I agree. Beings the movement wasn't planned, PJ's previous actions have ruined the chances of TZM progressing. But my main concern here is the blame that everyone is trying to throw around. From my p.o.v. no one is to blame.
Nate said this on June 28, 2010 at 10:00 pm

You are entitled to hold that view but we know better from experience within the movement and interacting with peter and the admin and the rest of the forum.
So we will have to disagree with you flatly, the movement is ruining a lot of the views on RBE because they are a conspiracy theorist movement and killing any credibility it ever had.
anticultist said this on June 29, 2010 at 12:15 am

To any remaining Zeitdards who might bother to drop by here from now on(not that many I suspect)
TVP/TZM is a perfect example of how cults can descend into both farce and complete obscurity.Its a waste of time plain and simple.All it does is whine and whinge about the world and idolise idiocy and bigotry.I'd give it less than two years to fade away completley at this point,the fact that its members were completey over pepped over criticism entries in wikipedia shows how naive and delusional you are
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Zeitgeist_Movement
.It will never become mainstream and they will not be the ones who make its core axioms come true because they were never any plans to do so.PM and JF are the knid of guys who get off of attention from the ignorant and the underachievers.Trust me decades from now when an RBE is finally administered step by step any record of,or recognition of PM,JF and the rest of the motely bunch of idiots will be virtually non-existant.Trying to take credit for something that was never your idea to begin with and what was eventually going to happen anyways is the most desparate attempt at getting your 15 minutes of fame(still doing it at 94 makes it even more cringe worthy and laughable).TVP/TZM will never make anything happen.The second any major media group gets a whiff of you you'll be nothing more than the type of stuff people joke about during the office lunch break by the water cooler or sunday roast for a few months.This blog hasnt made a difference to your movement all its done has collected all the hilarious moments of your cult into one place for people to laugh and poke fun at.Do everyone a favour spare yourselves the self public humiliation and us the bother of having to sit through this nonsense all over again and let the grown ups do their thing.
Shane Nolan said this on June 28, 2010 at 12:43 pm | Reply

Why can't we all just get along???
TheLamb said this on July 31, 2010 at 5:09 pm | Reply

hahaha
Why cant people just be honest and admit when they dont have anything to back up their claims ?
anticultist said this on July 31, 2010 at 5:46 pm | Reply

Because I don't want to get along with you. Pretty simple.
NWO Agent said this on July 31, 2010 at 5:50 pm | Reply

This article refutes and disproves claims of Zeitgeist movie, from the part of Christianity:
http://koti.phnet.fi/petripaavola/zeitgeist_movie.html
I suggest to read the article!
telson said this on August 25, 2010 at 4:14 am | Reply

I am not religious or believe in Christianity but I dont mind you putting this link here for others to read should they want to.
But I personally think religions are flawed anyway and wont turn this blog into a religious debate should anyone read the above link or my response to it.
No religious talk here from anyone :D
anticultist said this on August 25, 2010 at 2:05 pm | Reply

"The ideas of PARACON should be the transition stage."
let me be brutally frank. I alone, before i ever heard of rbe or any of this drama, had the answers. Because I am a real polymath, and because I studied, hard, and worked the problems even harder.
I am well aware of both the serious fallacies and serious strengths of the daughter movements and this is why the one I pick to work with will actually take off.
Further more and perhaps more importantly, outside of TZM and TVP they aren't all sheeple. Thinking for themselves and working the problems in a real fashion, they would eventually come to real answers even without somebody like me around to sit with them.
If you want to compare apples and oranges, Atlas City, for example and by way of comparison is about as hopeless ad they come and has no chance of success without getting a few miracles in the form of new members who are willing to overlook their compound flaws.
RBOSE has some organizational problems but also has some very intelligent people working the problems.
Further it is the stated goal of RBEF to find and merge with other social movements and groups and to adopt eclectically the best from everywhere, this is one reason why RBOSE and RBEF are now in the process of merging.
(Humanity and myself both had a large role to play in pushing them towards each other and branmanflomore was the true walk across the bridge guy.)
In short, While I understand and appreciate your skepticism, evolutionary forces and the simple fact that not everyone is a TVP
sheeple will tend towards eventually these groups actually making some real impact.
"To achieve a resource based economy, TZM, RBEF, etc. need to integrate and collaborate with other social movements that are prepared to deal with the here and now. "
They know this and are actively working to find partners.
"PARACON will give way to RBE at some point. RBE is the endpoint. There are current movements and theories that have developed the points in between. They all fai"
I'm interested but a google search seems to suggest that you mean
this;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participatory_economics
which is parecon- with an e.
prometheuspan said this on September 2, 2010 at 4:55 am | Reply

Yes, yes, my mistake.
Nate said this on September 3, 2010 at 3:55 am | Reply

"Fresco keeps important ideas alive."
No, hes nothing but a road block to important ideas making it to mainstream and the crackpotted tard that makes the rest of us look bad.
"The movement scrambles his effort and tends to get things twist"
No, he was always at best only slightly brilliant and then half mad, and the movement reflects this perfectly.
"ed up. But a newcomer to these ideas my cross this blog and give up on pursuing TVP or TZM thereby abandoning enlightening ideas. "
Ideally, they would get the sense that there are other movements out there which aren't rooted in self serving scam- ie- anti capitalist capitalism- the greatest gate keeper scam.
"That is the worry this blog gives me."
The best solution to this then is for you to get lucid, and to contribute here in a way that would lead people towards real movements with real potential, like RBEF.
"It will shut people off to the core ideas."
This is sad but it can't be helped. I didn't make TVP evil it made up its own mind. It would be reprehensible to not tell the world the truth. Deal with it.
Deal with it in a way that holds to the truths and acknowledges how tvp has become just another capitalism dead end con game.
Its incredibly ironic. They make money by SELLING people on their
version of anti capitalism. Thats the whole thing.
In a simple nutshell.
" With enough time spent researching TZM's material many members eventually discover who originated the various ideas. But the way this blog is handled will shut off curious minds before they get there."
Cry us a river of crocodile tears. Look, I'm incredibly busy saving the humans. TVP is in the way. Period. I'm sorry for any collateral damage, but they are the demons and I'm the real mccoy,
so get with the program and choose wisely.
"That's why this blog should be about where TZM gets its ideas from. Not a scandal tabloid. That way you correct any "
My first priority ethically MUST be to WARN the public about the scam.
My own selfish considerations must come second to that.
You don't grasp this, but Anticultist has it right. First we slay dragon. THEN we work out bringing peace and love and justice to the enchanted lands.
"misinformation or misconceptions meanwhile maintaining unbiased commentary and an open door to future learners."
You are free to be the kind of voice you envision here so long as you don't go lame brain on us.
I suggest you take that responsibility quite personally and don't try to shuck it off on us.
prometheuspan said this on September 2, 2010 at 5:10 am | Reply

"all knowledge is serial when we assume past knowledge to be true. That is the reality. Fresco recognizes that and cuts past the bullshit."
Dropping his own load of pooh on top of the other tall load of pooh isn't helping as much as you think it is.
"He sees the ideas as far more important than the thinkers who synthesized the ideas before him."
Thats fine, and if he was honest and not a capitalist about it and
ran his movement with integrity instead of allowing it to be run
by evil basterds for their own ego ends, I might be able to forgive him the flaws and work past it. I suspect he and I would get alone quite well in person. For one thing, I actually can run autocad and do the real engineering not 1950s style.
However, back in this reality, whatever good he has to offer the world is eclipsed by how its being used, and that is a reflection of his personality and his greed, and his own involvement in and thus propping up of scam charlatan capitalism.
"You accusing him of STEALING ideas depends completely upon your personal values and how much you think those values justify your accusational finger pointing."
Having eclectically integrated 50 or 60 paradigms as an expert and a polymath, I make sure to credit the originals whenever possible and as often as possible. The fact that he fails to do this is one more proof hes a fake. Hes simply factually ignorant compared to me or any serious economist or systems theorist or sociologist or civil engineer and hes trying to make us think hes a wise old wizard by pretending all of these ideas are his originals. Real genius doesn't have to engage in sleight of mind.
"He is a person passing on good ideas, period."
He is a capitalist making a lot of money off of a large pool of dupes by selling them on his brand of anti capitalism- period.
"Your evidence is adequate when it comes to showing Fresco doesn't give credit. But what evidence can you provide that logically leads to the conclusion that Fresco is deliberately trying to TAKE/STEAL credit from past thinkers?"
The point is moot. If he is so incompetent that hes doing it accidentally, thats worse, not better.
"That is an unsubstantiated claim that depends entirely upon your own personal judgment/interpretation. What justifies this accusation without a doubt?"
The simple fact that the alternative is that hes delusional batshit insane. We try to give him credit where credit is due and assume the best. Face this and grasp it. We could assume the opposite but that could only mean that hes actually seriously crazy.

"You don't seem to have all sides of the issue in perspective to make an intellectually honest indictment."
Sometimes Anticultist is sloppy in his presentation but thats because hes gone through this 101 times before and has lost patience with it all.
Aside from this, we have given it plenty of time and study and we have in fact come up with meaningfully unbiased answers.
prometheuspan said this on September 2, 2010 at 5:24 am | Reply

Well I have come around quite a bit. I was always skeptical of TZM/TVP but I suppose the core ideas are what captured me. I often opposed this blog because I sensed intellectual dishonesty fueled by emotive reasoning and I find that unacceptable. You're right, TZM/TVP certainly deserves criticism, but I simply felt and still feel that the criticism can be presented with much more couth. Couth is important for two reasons: 1. it is more ethical, and 2. it does a better job turning members around and/or attracting new members to RBEF/RBOSE. But of course Anticultist has nothing to lose, he doesn't agree with an RBE, so I have come to understand it.
The simple fact that the alternative is that hes delusional batshit insane. We try to give him credit where credit is due and assume the best. Face this and grasp it. We could assume the opposite but that could only mean that hes actually seriously crazy.

The connection between brilliance and madness has been pondered throughout history.
Nate said this on September 3, 2010 at 4:22 am | Reply

After seeing that, it's hard for anyone to take TVP serious.
Nate said this on September 3, 2010 at 4:47 am | Reply

Yeah its been said many times elsewhere online that Fresco has ripped this idea from EPCOT, pretty much shows it right there in the video. Walt disney was a daydreamer who didnt manage to fulfill it either.
anticultist said this on September 3, 2010 at 6:34 am | Reply

Then again, Disney died two months after this film. So I can't say I know what would have happened.
Nate said this on September 3, 2010 at 7:37 am

ah fair point
anticultist said this on September 3, 2010 at 7:56 am

ONE QUESTION: IS ANYTHING THAT TZM SAYS THAT IS NOT FACTUAL?
ALL I HEAR FROM YOU AND OTHER CRITICIZERS ARE ATTACKS. YOU NEVER SAY THAT THE CONTENTS OF THEIR TOPICS ARE WRONG.
DON'T BE AFRAID OF THE TRUTH OR CHANGE. THE CHANGE THAT TZM ESPOUSES CAN HELP THE WORLD WE LIVE IN TODAY.
John Carroll said this on September 20, 2010 at 11:19 pm | Reply

Try typing like a normal human being next time John instead of your all caps shouting like you were on fire.
First off you seem to hear what you want to hear, people here and myself have made hundreds of points about how wrong TZM is and its non facts, take good look around at posts and comments.
Secondly none of us are afraid of the truth in fact were all constantly striving to find the truth in everything everyday, always questioning people and their claims.
Thirdly Change comes when people get off their asses and the internet and stop procrastination about the future and how great Fresco and Merola are.
Last but not least you guys have not changed a single thing on this planet, Not a thing, so with that said BYEEEEEEEEE.
anticultist said this on September 21, 2010 at 12:01 pm | Reply

I see nothing but ad hominem attacks here.
I don't "agree" with the likes of David Icke or the TZM but to dismiss folks as conspiracy theorists without addressing any of the information they present, should send warning signals to anyone that reads blogs like this.
What conspiracies do you consider false?
What is your information to "debunk" them?
When you say "Conspiracy theories" with derision are you suggesting
That those at the top of the heap don't conspire to remain there and researching how they do they is an irrational intellectual exercise?
Not only is that naive but it flies in the face of mainstream history.
You throw some rice at the hungry kids in the back seat of a car that's hurtling towards a wall, deride anyone suggesting that we should question our very direction, and claim the high ground of charity?
There's an old German proverb.
"Charity sees the need, not the cause"
TZM and others exploring the pattern of conspiracy is at least an attempt at addressing the causal issues.
Are you suggesting that this very action is misguided?
"You guys have not changed a single thing on this planet"
Lol i'm not a TZM member, but I live in Taiwan and can tell you that the growing labor unrest in China is a direct result of exposure to information presented in "conspiracy films" like Zeitgeist or the Obama Deception. It's certainly having a greater affect than your disdain.
Chris said this on September 22, 2010 at 4:02 am | Reply

911 was an inside job - conspiracy theory
the nwo is running the world - conspiracy theories
the bankers are trying to ruin the world - conspiracy theory
And much other nonsense CT stuff the movement and its members spout.
Get over the ego driven jesus complex the movement espouses.
anticultist said this on October 5, 2010 at 2:34 pm | Reply

Tell Martin Luther King Jr. that.
Nate said this on October 13, 2010 at 8:59 am

That guy is dead and I dont consider him being used in reference to zeitgeist as particularly ethical being that he was a rights activist for black people.
anticultist said this on October 13, 2010 at 11:45 pm

Well I'm confused. I watched the movies and, while not focusing on the facts, they generally supported my idea/instincts that there is something very wrong with this world. And while the alternative society idea presented by TVP sounds like an utopia, I do like to believe in it, simply because I am a humanist and a dreamer.
Anyway, I run back and forth between supporting the movement and supporting the critics against the movement, cause I want to get the whole picture. The big picture doesn't seem to be very pretty... One of the facts is that we ALL want to help the society, but we all sit on these forums trying to prove each other wrong, when we could be working together...
What I'm really trying to say lies in a song, and it goes like this:
"I'd love to change the world, but I don't know what to do. So I'll leave it up to you."
I think the general outcome of all of this will not be very nice.
Liz said this on October 6, 2010 at 11:12 am | Reply

to change the world, come help out at RBEF.
to spin ones wheels in circles, take turns loving and hating TVP.
prometheuspan said this on October 15, 2010 at 9:21 pm | Reply

The Anticultist just don't want the world to be a great place, I actually don't care at all if The Venus Project is a scam to gain money or something like that, Because of the Zeitgeist movement and The Venus Project we open the eyes of thousands to a better way of living in a Society, When the Zeitgeist movement reaches it's goal to eliminate the problems in this sick world it will not matter for Jacque or Roxanne that they gained much money, because there will NOT be any money, dont you get that?
Roxanne, Peter and Jacque is promoting a great idea, and since the Z-movement is alot more people than just Roxanne, Peter and Jacque they acutally have to set us all in a prison or kill us to actually get some kind of money profit out of it, as 3 people cant hide the words of millions.
If you don't come up with a better idea to a better future, shut up and join the ONLY MOVEMENT with a possiblity to make a change!
lovetheearth said this on October 24, 2010 at 11:18 am | Reply

Idiot.
Only an idiot would say they did not care if something was a monetary scam, do not post here again fools arent suffered on this blog.
anticultist said this on October 24, 2010 at 6:29 pm | Reply

the only movement with a possibility of making change is not an armageddon theology for atheists fascist cult of personality in three tiers complete with Secret police.
TVP has zero chance of making positive change and it is only an obstacle to positive change.
prometheuspan said this on October 25, 2010 at 4:29 am | Reply

[...] Conspiracy Science on why TZM is failing [...]
Zeitgeist Blogs: Zeitgeist is a Mind Heist « Zeitgeist Movement Exposed said this on November 10, 2010 at 9:12 pm | Reply




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I can't stop posting pictures of poop, what the fuck is wrong with me?

Level: 5
CS Original
Conspiracy Theories Continued (via The Red Phoenix) June.24.2010 43 61

http://web.archive.org/web/20110807233130/http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/06/24/conspiracy-theories-continued-via-the-red-phoenix/


http://theredphoenixapl.org/2010/06/13/conspiracy-theories-continued/


What Are Conspiracy Theories? Whether you use the internet frequently, attend protests or activist group meetings, or you are just the social type who strikes up conversations with people while waiting in a long line, chances are you've met them. They are the few, the informed, the truly enlightened among the mass of sheep of which we ignorant are a part. More often than not they inform us that they were once naïve and unenlightened just like us, ... Read More






What Are Conspiracy Theories?

Whether you use the internet frequently, attend protests or activist group meetings, or you are just the social type who strikes up conversations with people while waiting in a long line, chances are you've met them. They are the few, the informed, the truly enlightened among the mass of sheep of which we ignorant are a part. More often than not they inform us that they were once naïve and unenlightened just like us, but one day they saw something on Youtube or some other internet site, and started doing their "own research." Research which, incidentally, was limited only to sites like those of professional conspiracy theorist Alex Jones and his ilk. Perhaps it was a book which "really opened their eyes." Regardless of how they came to be aware of those things which elude the rest of us automatons, you can rest assured they are never looking back to those days of ignorance. They know who's really in charge, and they know what really happened, that is they know the truth behind every disaster, terrorist attack, and conflict, and they are going to tell you about it. How long will they spend demonstrating their uncanny knowledge of the shadowy puppet-masters who control the world and make the news? How much time have you got?

First of all, let us make something clear. As conspiracy theories have increased in popularity over the past decades (in fact all-encompassing conspiracy theories involving shadowy movements acting to overthrow the status quo seem to trace their origins to the late 18th century, at least in the United States), so grows the conspiracy theorists' irritation at the very word conspiracy. They allege that conspiracies happen all the time, and they likewise allege that the "official story" behind many events also involve conspiracies. This ignores the definition of the term in modern speech. "Conspiracy theory" does not mean a narrative which involves a conspiracy among its participants, but rather an alternate, and more importantly un-falsifiable alternate explanation for either an event or the world in general, which is supported by the alleged existence of a conspiracy.

In other words, it is a hypothesis where a lack of evidence is explained away by a cover-up by the alleged conspirators, known or unknown, and contrary evidence is rejected as fabricated. In other words, it's a lot like any hypothesis only it relies on a consp