Skeptic Project

I love your rant. You're right. Keep up the good work. Expose these criminals.
Manila English said this on September 2, 2010 at 12:17 am | Reply

Yeah its not me but the rant is funny and the guy is clearly annoyed at TVP and Frescos mob haha, I wanna investigate some of his info some more actually as its interesting what he is implying.
anticultist said this on September 2, 2010 at 5:28 pm | Reply

It is soooooo funny. I want to hear more.
Manila English said this on September 2, 2010 at 5:35 pm

Here is his youtube page:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Peterwhitlock
anticultist said this on September 2, 2010 at 5:50 pm

Oh my gosh that's a lot of videos. This guy isn't playing around. Hahahaha. I subscribed to his channel. This is going to be my funny pages. Do you remember back when we were kids and newspapers used to be popular? This is the funny pages. lol.
Manila English said this on September 2, 2010 at 6:58 pm

hahaha
anticultist said this on September 2, 2010 at 7:59 pm

all of the claims made by the speaker regarding geothermal power are rhetorical and patently false. Geothermal power does not cause volcanoes unless its done on a fault line. The water is not even a hundredth as poisonous as coal or oil burning even under the worst conditions, but in a closed circuit system there would never be anything other than 100 percent pure steam.
In short the speaker has no knowledge of geothermal power and is simply ranting on that subject.
As far as substances go, (not that this matters to me that much compared to geothermal power) there are space age plastics in existence with the tensile strength and etc to do what Jaques proposes. The problem with such materials is that they are exorbitantly expensive. In short, foamcrete design while not being as spectacularly futuristic in that 1950s world fair sort of way
is a much better and dirt cheap substance which could be used to make truly meaningful designs- none of which would look like the paper models jaques makes.
prometheuspan said this on September 2, 2010 at 3:47 am | Reply

trains going at 3000 or even 10 thousand miles an hour under the sea is very simple where you use a magnetic acceleration and the train moves inside of a tube thats had the air sucked out.
prometheuspan said this on September 2, 2010 at 3:50 am | Reply

Yeah and he points out some of the problems with it.
anticultist said this on September 2, 2010 at 5:29 pm | Reply

This guy is hilarious.
Nate said this on September 2, 2010 at 6:58 am | Reply

yeah he is kinda funny
anticultist said this on September 2, 2010 at 5:26 pm | Reply

I see lies here but not in the clip! No the geo-thermal well do make 3.0 earthquakes and they suspect it is longer deeper craks being formed. If too deep the control is lost and a volcano can be created.. over time. Yes the waters are super poison as they teach you it is the worst environmental on the planet! larger than all the ones we had so far put together! LEARN FRAC WATERS! plastic cities kill all on earth to make the plastic that does not have the attributes or could be used ever! NO foamcrete is weak and is porous and has none of the attributes to build with...you are lying out of ignorance...I have to forgive you ONCE! ANd 3000 mils perhour kills humans and all that lives with a bump of only a foot or twist...1 g become 10 G's 29 will kill you instantly... at 3000 mph you get up to 100 gs and in from any direction... a window pops and you die...all die the whole train! The material itself is a pollution on the sea, the currents can't be fought or corrected for in deep water... sharks crabs and other things that tend to rip open things...power supplies make no sense... over 300 reasons why it does not work is not a joke... it is a warning!
and no track on earth exist that can move up and down and sideways and still function IF power was possible to use when it takes the power of 2 cities to make it run... well the point sort of tells you what is what!
cost of construction is only a tiny 200 trillion dollars and the lifespan of it only 20 to 50 years and you have to rebuild it all...yep real smart stuff..if your IQ is lower than a snail.
Peter said this on September 2, 2010 at 7:36 pm | Reply

hey Peter welcome to the blog feel free to post your thoughts man, would'nt mind knowing where you are getting all your information on Jacque Frescos history at some point.
anticultist said this on September 2, 2010 at 8:02 pm | Reply

Just watched the two videos.
Kinda funny? This is really funny.
LoL!
Jacque Fresco must be saying some new things in his interviews/lectures because what this guy is saying is new to me. Usually I hear the same stuff from Jacque Fresco, but yeah...
His claims:
1. Zip Gun lying?
2. Jacque Fresco being arrested as a teenager?
3. Imaginary Tribe?
I guess I'm going to have to watch more videos from this guy, this is pure entertainment. It just gets more controversial, but I would like to see his research- he seems well-versed on Jacque Fresco to me despite how he displays his rants on YOUTUBE.
Oh yeah, I want to hear his 300 reasons on why we can't use geothermal energy. I have however heard about how tiny earthquakes that have been made from geothermal plant(s) like in California as an example, something I should probably look into more. But it seems that scientists dismiss these earthquakes not being dangerous and seem to think they know how to stop them if they are creating them.
BranManFloMore said this on September 2, 2010 at 8:28 pm | Reply

I think the 300 reasons were in regard to the under ocean hi speed maglev monorail, but I might be wrong.
anticultist said this on September 2, 2010 at 8:38 pm | Reply

You're right. Got mixed up there.
BranManFloMore said this on September 3, 2010 at 5:08 am

I watched an old movie once about a scientist who wanted to tap into the energy of the earth by pushing a nuke down to crack the earths core and feed off it, and the film ended up with the earth cracking right around the earth and all kinds of disasters going on, this was made in the 1950s -1960s if i remember correctly.
Fun movie riddled with sci fi paranoia.
anticultist said this on September 2, 2010 at 8:41 pm | Reply

Jacque Fresco "annihalated" by who? By a religious nut who projects like hell.
When I saw the first video of his that you posted here I asked myself why does he have so much hate in him and why does he think about JF like that.
Then i started watching his other videos, and yea, the guy is a lunatic.
I mean just check his arguments in this video:

Whats so funny is that you re promoting this wacko on your blog, and if you ever had a tiny bit of credibility left, you lost it all now anticultist.
Its really funny how you re out of topics on this blog so you fall this low...
I dont care if you delete this comment or not. I wanted you to read it. Because everyone with little brain will figure out your propaganda and how pathetic you all "anti-tzm people" are.
tzm supporter said this on September 3, 2010 at 1:24 am | Reply

I am promoting some of the things he says in his videos for further research that is all. So any credibility I had, which was never anything in the eyes of TZM fanatics like yourself is not gained or lost because nowhere in this thread have I actually said i agreed with anything. Your clear divisive attempts to paint a picture of what I think about Peter and whether I support him is wrong, I just find some of the things he has said interesting in the vids and wouldlike more evidence as stated above clearly in my replies.
Whats really funny is how cult fanboys like yourself feel the need to even post here, if this is such a lunatic post and of low calibre why are you even bothering to reply? Surely if noone is going to take what peter has said seriously you would be happy to get on with your life and forget this post existed?
Also calling him a whacko and a lunatic does not take away that hes said some things about fresco that could be some really damaging things if they prove to be true. Name calling and ad hominem tactics from a TZM member? surely not !!
anticultist said this on September 3, 2010 at 6:20 am | Reply

There are a lot of 'wackos' in the world. Jacque Fresco, Peter Joseph, Pat Robertson, this guy, etc... Just because someone is a religious fanatic doesn't mean that nothing they say is right. A lot of what this goofy guy says could be correct. After all, Fresco is a half-baked pie and so is Peter Joseph Merola, a man who can cut and paste to create low quality presentations but isn't a real film producer.
Manila English said this on September 3, 2010 at 11:09 am | Reply

I'm also curious as to why he hates Jacque Fresco so much that he dedicates this much effort into ranting about him. Maybe he got burned by him.
Manila English said this on September 3, 2010 at 11:13 am | Reply

The clip IS CORRECT!
Jacques fresco did in FACT claim he would remove religious children and others and switch parents on them to make them forced to learn other cultures! He said if he was on a ship sinking that he would choose only the skilled ones (crew) and let the others die. he said Birds can't sing and hear a sound too high for us to hear to react and make a sound we say is singing!
Then watch my clip on him about the guy that killed his wife..."he took a long time before he killed here! LEAVE IT ALONE! You don't know! he was a NICE GUY!
His KKKish round Venus clip s a great proof... How come you try to mock ME whyen I have pointed to over 30 clips of his that he contradicts himself from clip to clip and his lies do not match timelines... like his 6 weeks as KKK in Miami... funny he claims he took the KKK leader to his LAB but his lab was in ano0ther city and years before and closed... so how long and where was he KKK? years and at least two cities!
Oh and i teach PREVENTION and the trim tab principle is master and God of all constructions ... SO I teach PERFECT VILLAGES from 2000 years ago taken from 10,000 years before that!
so a 12,000 year old village template still better than all you have on the planet or proposed by any others.
Remember Jacques fresco had mental problems in the military and so admits that BUT also a fake heart attack took place on top of the no salute the flag to con his way out of war then out of work... a con does what a con does! A fake electric Umbrella when broke, a fake 3 wheel car or way to deice planes...he would say ANYTHING to get attention and VICTIMS he is soooo used to feeding off of that he does not even think it is a 419 FRAUD he ran and runs.
Hid R.B.E. fails so he changed it to GLOBAL RBE and it still fails to prove it was a lie made up to steal donations by buying land to gain rights to it and suck in more victims using the complete line of fraud tactics for this line of fraud of models movies and claims of things that can't exist for 24 hours (R.B.E.).
The man spent his whole life faking out others and making knock off's to get fake credibility because he did none of the work! His knock off are all inferior to the things he copied from. Walt Disney complete spectrum of things linked to E.P.C.O.T. (not EPCOT). Buck minister fuller's car and a few others that he saw fit to make knock off from.
he was a fraud all his life and knock off and fakes and INSANE bad models like his Garden Home of tomorrow HOT BOX that was dead last in a 36 display effort. no one ever built anything of his. His model had more in common with ovens and solar heater and greenhouses than a home. It was Proof he had ZERO skills in the engineering and made almost all the mistakes of the rookies to prove it.
electric cane/Umbrella was insane!
The High Voltage through planes to deice them INSANE!
The grit on roads INSANE!
Super fast trains and city under the sea (he was forced to DROP) but because the KIDS liked the photo sooo much HE BROUGFHT IT BACK! It is the Picture he uses now all over but is his own rejected model because it was proven IMPOSSIBLE to build or work BY EXPERTS to him and he saw what they were saying was true and TOOK IT DOWN and said "I am not in the city under the sea thing anymore"
Just to show how two faced he always was.
He has a clip telling he has no projects under the sea at all since he was informed by experts how hard it would be and how deep and light... corals reefs. so he dropped all of it! he was told it was so simple to put a cam and monitor it from the land that no constructions at all are needed.
Try to find something of his that works!
His own claims of invention lead to other people's names alw3ays 100% of the time and HIS is never mentioned! His response is "Others took credit for my work" (years before he did it!)
Did you know the ORIGINAL TVP was called NEW Atlantis and he changed it?
Did you know he refused MILLIONAIRES come to Venus to invest BILLIONS into his project only to walk away and say "You have to take ALL that Jacques WITH A GRAIN OF SALT".
Or did you know TVP was originally about building on Venus land and get more land?
Yep! That monster wanted people to invest to build HIS models on HIS land But all hois models are fakes and so TOYS and no blueprints could be made of child toys like that! So they told him he needed a REAL DESIGNER AND REAL ENGINEER and get REAL BLUEPRINTS! He was so insulted that he said, he was the designer and he was the engineer! So they smiled and left!
since that day he tried to SELL TVP scams all over the planet one after the other and even built a PLASTIC apartment for Dube and was mocked for it there.
(It was also a crime for him to try to sell apartments prefabricated so he changed his tune and lied and said it was a trick lie to try to change people there's perception and introduce the real TVP (ya sure)
and dude... if I say it it is because that fool at one time or another said it or clearly it is seen that he is lying. He is well known to put his hand into his other hand and pump it to over 20 different questions! he used it to divert questions for decades!
"We can plant SENSORS under the ground and track water tables!" LOL
as if we had not been doing such things since the dawn of community water supplies.
Go ahead, try to find one single thing that works in all his presentations! did Zip guns exist in 1931? Do you think as a 4th to 5th grade drop out run away he got a high paying Job when 100 men in line all more qualified and could read! With a picture he made in a car as Jesus songs drove him nuts all the way?
The Algebra guy that teach mankind algebra.
But the Arab K.K.K. version of leadership and the 4 BILLION dollars he REJECTED becfause it was KKKish around Venus...man that should make you jump in the seat!
It is in the interviews on the TVP site!
well it was last time I checked but people tell me they took a lot of incriminating clips out as part of the HIDE all flaws part of the donation 419 FRAUD scam.
most of all remember I am here for centuries to come to mark him in the flames of history.
we BURN him in the lake of fire and he is not even dead yet!
we will burn him a LONG TIME NOW! We refuse him death! He lives in the clips and we Burn him in each of his lies and evil goals so no such HITLER RISE from his defective inferior work mostly stolen from THEIST on prophecy subject of the CHURCH OF JESUS that in scripture is a VILLAGE TEMPLATE FROM GOD TO SOLVE AND DEFEAT EVIL by FORM and FUNCTON call "KEYS AND SEALS"
today we know it as most powerful of constructions of mankind! ARCHES ande the CONCENTRIC CIRCLES you can make with them as well as a flat roof to grow food on (away from animals) and be ABLE TO ADAPT as well as PROTECT from ANYTHING each community choose is not needed or threat of any kind.
So even the very concepts he say, he stole from THEIST only to claim it as Atheist but in doing so MAKES HIM SATANIST!
Prophecy is about Jacques Fresco attempting to deceive all nations to make a power seat for an unknown leader of the future that can with ease control a central computer as a command center... the MAJOR MAJOR end function of RBE and Central computer.
His hatred of religions is to the point he would take kids away from parents to force the children to not be Theist and so SOLVE religions once and for all!
if you do not think any of this is truth... go look it up! take a few years to watch the clips and all his stuff... then compare them to each other!
Like hos Bio keeps making him look like a angel more and more as wqe go over the years... always made to sound good not say truth! never was his bio about truth but cover the truth!
then watch his eyes... he has a give... when he lies he look to the left and to the celling and the bigger the lies the more he looks up! SAme with Roxanne and she will look left and up each time she lies and funny when they say the lies together they do it together!
it is tell Mothers use on kids!
when Humans lie, they do this a LOT!
a voice stress test on ether even off the clips will prove they are in full knowing they are lying.
YOU can test them...
They do it on TV now...
if the Memory is not there the line is rather FLAT and if the memories exist for real they are full of nuances and peaks of details linked to the memories.
You will NOT be able to lie to athorities in the near future. The Voice can't hide knowing from not knowing and we now can tell 100% of the time like fingerprints.
You can ask they do test on hos stories and you will see each story even if it does not math hos own other stories are ALL lies! ALL 100%
not one of hos stories will pass the tests on his eyes or voice.
then ask yourself.. How can RBE work... and be real about it! Then if you got brains it is clear lies and fake... then ask WHY... and HOOKER ROXANNE in for the cash and really focused on the cash from day one...as usual follow the money!
LOL
Biggest post ever?
Peter said this on May 12, 2011 at 2:27 am | Reply

as to the issue of the credibility of Anticultist, let me say briefly that hes fully credible and he published my points which makes it quite fair.
"I see lies here but not in the clip! No the geo-thermal well do make 3.0 earthquakes"
That is only going to happen where a well is put on a fault line.
Otherwise, its simply BS.
Your failure to know or understand the difference is your problem.
"and they suspect it is longer deeper craks being formed. If too deep the control is lost and a volcano can be created.. over time."
No, even worst case scenario situations will not form volcaones, but thanks for illuminating us with saturday morning cartoon physics.
"Yes the waters are super poison as they teach you it is the worst environmental on the planet!"
Again, do you know what the difference is between and open and closed system? No? Then quit being an idiot.
An open system certainly can generate bad gasses like you claim.
A closed loop system on the other hand doesn't and can't.
"larger than all the ones we had so far put together! LEARN FRAC WATERS! plastic cities kill all on earth to make the plastic that does not have the attributes or could be used ever!"
Thats so crackpotted it can't even be parsed.
"NO foamcrete is weak and is porous and has none of the attributes to build with..."
No, foamcrete is quite strong and its porisity is part of what makes i that way.
"you are lying out of ignorance..."
No, You are blibbering out of ignorance.
"I have to forgive you ONCE! ANd 3000 mils perhour kills humans and all that lives with a bump of only a foot or twist...1 g become 10 G's 29 will kill you instantly..."
None of which can happen in a stright tunnel with self correcting
flotilla systems which always keep the tunnel straight and all sections of it even. Below a depth of 150 feet the ocean is completely still.
" at 3000 mph you get up to 100 gs and in from any direction..."
Now you are truly showing your colors as a BS artist. 100 Gs
is never going to happen in a straight tunnel.
"a window pops and you die...all die the whole train! "
same thing as with high altitude jets. Best idea is to make them so they can't pop.
"The material itself is a pollution on the sea, the currents can't be fought or corrected for in deep water... "
There are no currents under 150 feet deep. The currents are only on the surface of the ocean. Even so, your claim is bogus, it is simple to deal with the currents or even lay a train rail on the oceans surface.
"sharks crabs and other things that tend to rip open things...power supplies make no sense... over 300 reasons why it does not work is not a joke... it is a warning!"
No, its a mistake, generated by a guy whos ranting in ignorance about things he doesn't know about. Hes fine about his points about Jaque but he doesn't know physics.
"and no track on earth exist that can move up and down and sideways and still function "
No, again, flexible joint systems already invented (in the 1960s)
could more than deal with the flexing forces the ocean would apply at the highest tension point- which would be the surface.
"IF power was possible to use when it takes the power of 2 cities to make it run... "
No, again, you simply have no clue what you are talking about.
"well the point sort of tells you what is what!
cost of construction is only a tiny 200 trillion dollars"
more saturday morning cartoon BS pulled outta your but.
"and the lifespan of it only 20 to 50 years "
No, The system i would build would last thousands of years the materials to do that are quite available.
"and you have to rebuild it all...yep real smart stuff..if your IQ is lower than a snail."
amusing, but in this case sadly reflective. I know my topic and you don't.
Thats not really an IQ problem, I suspect you assume that you can BS your way through this conversation because we are as ignorant as you are.
That simply isn't the case. I know the facts of the matter.
prometheuspan said this on September 3, 2010 at 10:21 pm | Reply

I was certain your claims about ocean currents were wrong prom As i remember discussions about el nino in the past and the oceans conveyor belt system, a series of underwater temperature and pressure driven current systems. Any way I know its wikipedia but please check this.
Deep ocean currents are driven by density and temperature gradients. Thermohaline circulation, also known as the ocean's conveyor belt, refers to the deep ocean density-driven ocean basin currents. These currents, which flow under the surface of the ocean and are thus hidden from immediate detection, are called submarine rivers. These are currently being researched by a fleet of underwater robots called Argo. Upwelling and downwelling areas in the oceans are areas where significant vertical movement of ocean water is observed.
Surface currents make up about 10% of all the water in the ocean. Surface currents are generally restricted to the upper 400 m (1,300 ft) of the ocean. The movement of deep water in the ocean basins is by density driven forces and gravity. The density difference is a function of different temperatures and salinity. Deep waters sink into the deep ocean basins at high latitudes where the temperatures are cold enough to cause the density to increase.
It states categorically that even the the surface currents go down to 400 metres, not 150 metres. This is not even discussing the depths of deep ocean currents.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_current
anticultist said this on September 3, 2010 at 10:43 pm | Reply

That is only going to happen where a well is put on a fault line.
Otherwise, its simply BS.
No that is true and you are BS! The COOLING makes the local rock more solid and CRACK SNAP and so get DEEPER and cause tiny quakes. The water then cools it again and the cracks get deeper and deeper and deeper forever in this cycle of cooling rock FOR HEAT and then the rock reacts as expected! SAME as I was right about the Natural gas and the gas does not obey foolish wants and goes anywhere it can as in laws of physics and not laws of greed!
"and they suspect it is longer deeper cracks being formed. If too deep the control is lost and a volcano can be created.. over time."
No, even worst case scenario situations will not form volcaones, but thanks for illuminating us with saturday morning cartoon physics.
Well do the science... can YOU tell if a fault line is there or not that deep? No one can! 2) when you ARTIFICIALLY keep the rock cool and go deeper and deeper... when the water stops the rock melts again and now has a path to met more all the way up. The Longer a deep Geothermal well is active the deeper it gets...like it or not!
The waters from all well drilling is super full of contaminants BIG TIME and have to be sealed up in artificial lakes to evaporate and to make the cracks themselves a super amount of chemicals (up to 250 different things or more) to do all kinds of work from erode the rock with acids and reactive chemicals
then ANY water of the system is dangerous and all waters from the drilling super dangerous!
gain, do you know what the difference is between and open and closed system? No? Then quit being an idiot.
..............
An open system certainly can generate bad gasses like you claim.
A closed loop system on the other hand doesn't and can't.
IDIOT!
NO SUCH THING AS A CLOSED SYSTEM! None of them are closed! all of them are open systems and EVAPORATE surplus gases and add water all the time... you are told they are closed but you can see them as open in the clip and faking being closed! heck they even complain they need more and more water all the time! Remember it is LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION not any where like you think and Fresco thinks without thinking!
................
No, again, flexible joint systems already invented (in the 1960s)
could more than deal with the flexing forces the ocean would apply at the highest tension point- which would be the surface.
LIAR! why do you bother to lie to me? No power on the planet can resist waves and currents... so shut up fool! do the math! 4000 mph and a curve... gravity fool gravity! then bump and a dip... at 4000 MPH you just killed all inside thank you IDIOT! It is the effects not the track bending that kills IDIOT!
"IF power was possible to use when it takes the power of 2 cities to make it run... "
...................
No, again, you simply have no clue what you are talking about.
No Moron YOu do not know! They claim 2% of the energy of a plane Per train BUT to take the air out of the tube you need super amounts of power! You also have to do it several times a day!
please use the brain better than you have been!
......................
No, foamcrete is quite strong and its porisity is part of what makes i that way.
LIAR!
the fact it is a LOOSE mix of stome and concrete with few glue materials always made it sooooo weak it is used to let water pass in walkways and you can brake a chunk off with ease with a hammer in one shot! it is never used to build walls or floors and is for driveways and rain water Also they CAN plug up with dirt in a flood and fail to work ever again like a filter that is full.
...................
But I see the others are pointing you out too so i waste my time on such a fool
Peter said this on May 12, 2011 at 3:14 am | Reply

oH and LIAR the system YOU WOLD is just you playing fantasies again and proof you have no clue... they DID and we proved it did not work and was not even needed and obsolete in advance due to the traffic problem being able to be solved to create very little traffic to solve the problem and not make another as TVP and the other fools and now you want out of low IQ and high vanity and greed.
poor fool you are sure to be under 25! Under 25 think like you... 1.2 the fact and less to make choices with... so sad.
Peter said this on May 12, 2011 at 3:17 am | Reply

hmmm.
yes, of course you are right, good catch. I should have qualified that as significant ocean currents or currents with enough push to make a difference to structures.
The problem has been studied a few times by different people. There are deep ocean currents but they have a different causality and the movements are much slower.
Its a relative question. When a storm hits the ocean the currents in the ocean that mirror the storm only go to a depth of about 150
feet.
Serious tidal and thermohaline currents are mostly on the surface.
A .1 mile per hour current is a whole different creature than a 1 mile per hour current, and thats what we are really talking about here, orders of magnitude differences in the speed and thus force of the current involved.
http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/Mi-Oc/Ocean-Currents.html
http://dusk.geo.orst.edu/oceans/deep_currents.html
Deep ocean currents are known to exist as deep as 3 miles. However the RATE of flow of such currents is incredibly slow, in many cases only moving a few meters per hour.
The question is concerning currents which would have a significant impact upon a tunnel. Putting such a tunnel below 150 feet would
isolate it from all of the currents which have significant speed.
My apologies to the blog for my lack of clarity on this.
prometheuspan said this on September 4, 2010 at 6:26 am | Reply

dude
you can't build a train tunnel under 150 of water! You can suck the air out of it too! it would go flat!
do you see the pressure and the vacuum both work to destroy it OFF THE BAT?
reason 128... do the physics!
current pressure and a vacuum so needed that if it fail all die or if it bend all die it it rise or fall all die... at 4000 MPH the gravity goes to 100g to 20 to 10 back to 50... you die!
Only a MORON think Lets put it below 150 feet! Forget we can't put it at 150 feet Lets go deeper and add to the now impossible problem to make it funny and super impossible?
we ADD pressure to resist pressure WE DO NOT VACUUM ourselves to death!
It is called IMPLOSION... look it up!
Peter said this on May 12, 2011 at 3:24 am | Reply

" Below a depth of 150 feet the ocean is completely still."
In most places. Where it is not completely still, such currents move too slowly to have an impact on a solid structure, and submarine rivers are quite rare over all in the ocean, whereas the surface is constantly moving because of currents no matter where in the ocean you are, below 150 feet the ocean becomes incredibly still in most places.
prometheuspan said this on September 4, 2010 at 6:35 am | Reply

Liar!
any current has an effect on all objects! You lie like it was a rug! it is the power to move the tube and that is ANY MOVEMENT at all! One inch so does the track move... it can't be fixed to the bottom or have floats so how would it stay put?
It simply can't! To think at any level the currents become tame and stop pushing matter is like magical powers you used to stop physic laws?
Peter said this on May 12, 2011 at 3:27 am | Reply

http://www.tpub.com/weather3/1-24.htm
"The deep-sea currents associated with the deep-ocean circulation flow at
a rate of a few centimeters per second or less. If we were able to free float a bottle at a designated depth,
this rate of speed would equate to the bottle moving less than 2 degrees of latitude (120 nmi) in a year,
or 0.06 nmi/hr."
prometheuspan said this on September 4, 2010 at 7:34 am | Reply

UPDATED the original post with a new video from Peter.
anticultist said this on September 4, 2010 at 11:35 pm | Reply

Just when I thought your cheap shots and blatant stupidity couldn't sink any lower, you post a video by PeterWhitlock, an bat-shit insane fundamentalist christian who is such a douche that he trolled my youtube page for a month. No to mention his points are completely retarded and could be debunked by a 5 year old. Geothermal makes poisonous gases so we shouldn't use it? WTF is he talking about? Have you ever been to a hot spring? Did you die from inhaling poison? Geothermal isn't meant to be used on cynder cones you dolts, you put them on shield volcanos which have a constant magma flow. And they don't cause earth quakes either, were the hell do you come up with this stuff? As for what the buildings are made of, I did a 5 second google search and whaddayaknow, it's already been answered in the most obvious of all looking spots: the FAQ on his website: http://www.thevenusproject.com/the-venus-project-introduction/faq
Look at questions 37-40. You people are truly pathetic...
Gavin said this on September 6, 2010 at 6:23 am | Reply

Funny how you use the plural and attack people who never even made any claims, you must be single handedly the most retarded person posting here unable to differentiate between someone providing a link to a video to someone who actually makes the video. Likewise you seem unable to decipher the point of interest that I am concerned about, in other words Fresco being a complete con man and charlatan and lying. But thats probably too much for your little mind to comtemplate and consider.
Again another TZM fanboy comes here and sharks the religious folk as if they have some kind of vendetta against people of faith and religion, you guys cease to amaze me how incredibly ignorant you are to other peoples dispositions. You wonder why we at this blog laugh at your own belief structure and naievete, its because you yourselves are no better than religious people.
Gavin youre no better than Peter Whitlock in your own ideology of TVP/RBE dreamland. You are the pathetic one.
Quotes from the venus project:
Some of the materials that could be used are composites of high strength inner and outer surfaces with a foamed inner core. The exterior surfaces could be of a ceramic material, glass, or pre-stressed, lightweight concrete.
So thats your genius material that a magic robot will build buildings from ?
Get a life.
These newer materials will probably serve multiple purposes. They could be lightweight, high strength, and low maintenance, with acoustical properties not found in today's structures.
Notice that these dont exist today :D Also notice how he regurgitates the same response in question 38 and 39.
Eventually these structures will be self erecting and use composites such as shape memory materials. These are materials that can be pre-shaped for such items as contoured furniture. They are then flattened for easy shipment and activated electrically to assume their original shape.
Oh so the whole building and all inner furniture will be made of memory metals ? If you say so ! And how much memory metal do you have at hand to do this with ? What resources will you need to make entire cities from this stuff? You guys live on another fucking planet. And like Peter said, if theres a fire the building will just fall apart back to its pre packed state, also a fact for fun the tiny piece of memory metal Jacque has works off heat from a hair dryer not from an electric circuit.
Come back in a few hundred years when you can provide some evidence of what you have to offer the world son.
anticultist said this on September 6, 2010 at 9:19 am | Reply

WOW such a LOW IQ
hot springs eh... SURFACE rain water on up to the surface hot rocks... ghee how LOW IS your IQ? That low!
you did not learn a dam thing about Geothermal power or drilling or fracture waters... you clearly are a MORON that claims I am a fundamental This or that... to prove you are a complete Moron that never once dared to look at my channel but did post a lot of lies and pro TVP crap if I remember correctly... all TVP and TZM and now all TVP or left out in the cold? LOL
Peter said this on May 12, 2011 at 3:32 am | Reply

indeed. Gavin, i took on the issues. I confronted the errors.
I did not needlessly attack or belittle to do it. The point of this blog is to explore whatever happens in the internet or etc that points out problems with TVP/TZM. Anticultist would be remiss in his mission if he did not post these.
You are free to come here and point out the holes. Instead, you waste your time and ours by showing yourself to be exactly the kind of prick you seem to be bemoaning.
Peters religiousity is not an issue.
If you have an actual comment to make to refute anything he has said, I'd find that interesting.
Ad hominems are generally the refuge of those who can't manage an argument.
Peter has some facts about engineering confused, and has been duly corrected.
You haven't addressed his points about JF peter joseph being a con man and a criminal, and in fact you have displayed more of the same cult mind which got TVP/ TZM into this mess in the first place.
Its neato to imagine a world made of george jetson unobtainium.
back in reality the reason why we don't build with such materials is that the cost would be exorbitantly expensive.
A billion dollar flat isn't the wave of the future, its a pathetic pipe dream by a man who didn't bother to do his research for cost/benefit analysis and come up with cheap and realistic materials instead of far fetched improbables.
The sad truth of why is that he needed such materials to build his 1950s world faire esque models. Which now look even more dated than science fiction of the same era.
All he had to do was go practical and pragmatic instead of futuristic futuristic and he could have been fine. Its a joke, and any structural engineer will tell you its a joke.
Back to foamcrete. No it doesn't make buildings that look like 1950s world faire rejects.
Yes it does make buildings large and cheap and livable.
"self erecting"?
ha hah ha ha ha. You know the problem with that? anything that self assembles also is prone to disembly and entropy and tends to fall apart. IE entropy. We don't use self assembly because all its good for is stuff you plan to take down in 40 hours like tents.
This is a fine example however even of why self assembly will never be the wave of the future. Self assembly tents are so big, unwieldy, and useless that they can't be packed into a back pack-
your only real use is less than 100 meters from the car, and most of them have to be lugged that distance by two people. The future may be futuristic, but its not magic. Get real.
Come back to us when you have an argument or come back not entirely devoid of content based on cheap ad hominems and blithering.
prometheuspan said this on September 6, 2010 at 9:59 am | Reply

Just wanted to say Thanks
I do make mistakes and do try to correct them as I go.. I should of not removed the clips. I did not know so much fuss was on them here... I was thinking no one saw them that cared for the longest time.
I was against fresco from 1978 onward.
I had the perfect Village in 1966 and since! Not my fault no one believe in perfection and all want vanity and low base instinct to lead all the future to doom.
I have the solution to all things that plague mankind NOW and all worlds to come from mankind.
So why no one studies the real Perfect template and all run to aa liar con man that feed on Theist data and then claims he is Atheist?
Only Theist build round cities and only theist ever did... to build like God of the scriptures...using perfection!
heck the secret of the Bible is concentric circles and made of arches with a flat roof... the rest is modualar plug and play so it never gets old or out of date...always new! Just like scripture said it would be.
if they rather fight over me exposing Fresco than face the real construction of the solution to all human and life problems...well I see a planet of apes and apes see me as insane.... not like them!
well da!
i am not!
I have the cure for all things.... who ever had that in history but me Jesus and god IAM from scripture? who?
where?
when I die who will know what perfection is? How to build it? why it save time lines?
worlds
whole races and species
naw,
no one wants perfection... they make a western world to wait for it and then it shows up and they want to do all but!
i live on a doomed planet ran by apes that play rather than serve Humanity.
and who told the world they could breed like that????
sheeesh
so thanks man
my cross is heavy and my duty was not to fight fresco but to replace him with the real thing he tried to steal and call his own against scripture.
that is how low fresco is...no one but Jesus speaks of a world with no money... no one!
all get it from him and prophecy!
No one build round cities but Theist! Yes They were all theist Howard, Disney worked for Jesus to find HIS Church village perfection.
think.... super fast trains or walk across the street to work and need no bike car or other transport to do it?
Build cities on the sea or plain build villages that make no babies and use them to promote and restore the planet as populations stop growing?
Abundance by adding tech or abundance by balancing human population?
come on!!! I trim tab by prevention where that shit adds to the problem new ones!
Dude NONE ever stand up for me or defend what I say. EVER!
THANKS
THANKS for not being the bandwagon of apes.
if only the perfect village would rise now... end this world of follies and get new ones to want to go to and thirst to go...to dream and work to build to go..for others!
Life must go to new places and must be seeded with care..Only A.I. can do that!
we will embrace them and with the great duty we shall be brothers in duty not at war with each other or dominated by them...but Earth must be the seed planet it is and must remain or all is lost!
Peter said this on May 12, 2011 at 3:51 am | Reply

Let's keep in mind that the reason most things are expensive has more to do with availability of material than it does with human labor. Lunch boxes are made of plastic or aluminum instead of titanium because titanium isn't as easy to produce as plastic or aluminum. I think that is the point anticultist was making.
Manila English said this on September 6, 2010 at 6:54 pm | Reply

I am sure TVP fanatics will just wish these things into existance. Meanwhile Jacques taking cash donations to keep the dream alive.
anticultist said this on September 6, 2010 at 7:37 pm | Reply

actually you are wrong, and it is POPULATION GROWTH that makes us choose other materials or you all could have titanium lunchboxes!
The more population the faster and the less time you need to waste or production so PAPER BAGS still are the best and all others waste and pollute... how about surplus of good food so kid not have to lunch boxes...just eat anywhere when you are hungry.
I give fruit trees tomato plants grape vines... each year something! funny how the most poor guy is the one helping all the richer ones have surplus because they were tooo vain to know seeds grow!
apple seed takes 5 to 8 years... I had the time many times over... so many people today have trees they eat from that i gave them free as surplus from my super poor home.
funny how the poor can grow and the rich can't even think of it.
So be Humans... go plant something and walk away... just plant so much that no mater what you do things grow... let them eat from what you done and do it everywhere!
let them know some Humans still exist on this planet!
Peter said this on May 12, 2011 at 4:07 am | Reply

on the other hand, titanium lunch boxes would be overkill.
Changing the pricing system does not change the inherent value or scarcity of exotic materials, it only changes how we relate to them.
In terms of energy accounting, a house made of space age plastics is still thousands (or millions) of times more expensive in terms of its energy and materials costs than one made of foamcrete.
Not using $$$ any more doesn't change this.
The only thing that could change it is singularity technology and
replication devices ala star trek. Until we can generate infinite free energy and duplicate matter of any kind instantly to suit our needs, space age plastic houses are for quack job billionaires.
prometheuspan said this on September 6, 2010 at 11:59 pm | Reply

Does carbon fiber exist or is it my imagination? I think the significant points behind Fresco and the Venus Project aren't to create everything they design to its exact spec, but rather to propose REAL change on a socio-economic, technological, and environmental scale-at least they are proposing some type of positive transition in human behavior/consciousness. The "system" as we know it today is not working-no brainer there. And geothermal has been working just fine in many places; look at Iceland. Practice safe geology. I do lean towards Fresco's ideas more than those opposing him, but I do think those against TVP are missing the major points of it all.
Bill said this on October 20, 2010 at 11:42 am | Reply

Nah I get it as do most the critics here who are all ex long standing members, weve just evolved past TVP / TZM and realised its not working nor is it going to work thats the no brainer were passing on.
anticultist said this on October 21, 2010 at 2:17 am | Reply

The "system" as we know it today is not working-no brainer there. And geothermal has been working just fine in many places; look at Iceland. Practice safe geology. I do lean towards Fresco's ideas more than those opposing him, but I do think those against TVP are missing the major points of it al
1) the SYSTEm works to perfection and just because 90
5 of humans are sacricfided does not mean the other 10% will die! in fact they prosper! Hey i don't like it ether but that is OVERPOPULATION that you are also avoiding like them.
2) yes NATURAL geothermal has NOTHING to do with deep well Geothermal...so you are badly mistaken! heat at the surface and heat way down is way different!
3) we can tell YOU are missing the point! you are doing it all wrong from end to end so how can you know better to not follow Fresco? it is you we come to save from fresco because of exactly that! YOU CAN"T TELL! We have for you!
Peter said this on May 12, 2011 at 4:21 am | Reply

Well, rather than ridiculous videos with a babbling idiot as your spokesman, maybe someone can actually offer constructive criticism-a counter argument that actually offers something. That's typically the problem with most uneducated people, they simply bitch about something rather than offering a new or different way to solve a problem. Whaaaa, their idea isn't working, let's do NOTHING about it, whaaaa. If you have truly "evolved" past a group that is at least attempting to solve major human issues, then please propose an alternative solution. Oh, and since it's so easy to "pick-up the internet and go learn", please Google the basic rules of English grammar.
Bill said this on October 21, 2010 at 3:46 am | Reply

Erm grammar nazi, ignorant of the facts and using assumptions left right and centre. Well done, most educated people would do some research into who they were talking to and check the claims they were making about them were correct. Also read the original post you moron the guy in the videos is not anyones spokesman.
I guess you just failed abysmally, anyway since you have nothing to add here, IE you have no idea about the people posting against the movement. You have not a clue about all the things the people here have said about it online it is probably best you just dont bother returning until you have an idea.
So take your whiney ass back to conspiracy woo world where you belong you retard.
anticultist said this on October 24, 2010 at 6:32 pm | Reply

Its sad to see that fail human being will always be fail human beings... You say that you have "facts" and that ur right because u've been a member long enough to know what ur talking about. But it's all speculations, so is for TVP to work, it's speculation. Until we have a prototype, the first city teaching critical thinking, changing behaviors and people's way of thinking etc, you can't say it can't work. You don't seem to realise that "retarded people that are retarded on purpose" what i call sophists will have probably alot of peer presure on them or left alone to talk to a wall all day because they don't make sense... People will eventually stop feeding the trolls, wich will produce an incentive for the trolls to act as human beings.
Stéphane Blouin said this on October 23, 2010 at 6:51 pm | Reply

That city aint arriving anytime soon so best not to hold your breath, meanwhile critical thinking is being used right now on this very blog enjoy.
anticultist said this on October 24, 2010 at 6:28 pm | Reply

Dialogues with the Venus Project (Zeitgeist Movement)
January 31, 2009
Many of you have probably seen the movie Zeitgeist. For those who have not, simply put this term into your search engine and you can watch the movie on-line.

Like many of you, the criticisms of fiat currency, fractional reserve lending and the state resonated with me. While doing some research, I happened across the website for the Zeitgeist Movement and was intrigued. So I went into the site and started reading.

Once I dug deeper, specifically in regards to something called the 'Venus Project', I was shocked at what I discovered. I will leave it my readers to do their research on the Zeitgeist Movement and the Venus Project. What follows are excerpts from a debate I attempted with several of their members. I thought these snapshots might elucidate the sad state of dialogue as it regards the problems so many perceive, and the human knee-jerk reaction to latch onto some great scheme, plan or vision for a 'better' society. Also, it will illustrate the poor quality level of debate that's out there. It took much prodding to elicit any well-thought-out responses. I encourage you to check these guys out. They are absolutely frightening - a mass of otherwise well-intentioned people who sense something is wrong, but are blindly seeking answers. Rather than understand their own history, they reach out to yet another form of statism and control: the centrally-planned collective.

Statement: A Free Society can be Designed

Barbed responds:

There is no design without control.

There is no control without force.

There is no societal force absent the state/tribe/collective.

There is no state/tribe/collective until the state/tribe/collective monopolizes force.

Once force is monopolized, the human being is subject to control by the whims of the state.

But, you say, WE have good ideas. We love human beings.

That may be so. But will you live forever? Once force is handed over to the state, it is handed over in perpetuity, the people already having been disarmed, controlled and pacified.

Will the next generation of Really Smart Leaders be as judicious with the use of that force as you will?

Ponder this, lest your movement morph into another branch of the statism you abhor.

Statement: This can only be done through proper design.

BWS Response:

Please explain:
1. How design does not imply control and therefore, inherently, force ?

2. What do you do with the human beings who do not fit your 'design'?

For example- John Smith is an investment banker. He represents all that you claim to abhor.

You are 'designing' a society. John Smith and his value system does not fit into this design.

What do you do with John Smith?


(The answers to my questions seemed to imply that in the utopian 'Venus Project' society, there would be no money and therefore no investment bankers. My question, therefore, was deemed moot. There was little discussion of how the transition to this utopian society would be carried out, however, which is very concerning. The whole line of reasoning reminds me of Mao, or Pol Pot, but in reverse: instead of a forced migration to the fields, it's a suggestion of a highly technological society in an almost Gene Roddenberry sense. In fact there are frequent Star Trek references to be found on their forum. I suggested they read The Grapes of Wrath.)

Question: What do you think of the 2nd Amendment?

BWS Response:

We must not distract ourselves with 'why' someone may want to prevent you from owning the means of self-defense, in this case a gun.
We must ask how.

HOW do they propose 'banning', 'restricting', 'regulating', 'confiscating', and 'policing'?

Will the state apparatus be used for these ends, as is so often the case? If not, what controlling body will, through its monopoly on the use of force, 'ban', 'restrict', 'regulate', 'confiscate' and 'police'?

Once this authority, this power, has been handed over to such a body, what will said body do with this power next?

What if someone refuses to comply? What force will be used to compel this human beings action in the determined direction? Do you support the tazing of this human being? Do you support the beating of this human being? Do you support the killing of this human being? Do you support the imprisonment of this human being? If so, for how long?

We must ponder deeply our desires to direct human behavior and understand the dynamics of control utilized by both states and humans to control other humans.

Those who would 'ban' must first ponder these issues and draw them out to their logical conclusions.



Statement: You are so powerful when you have weapons , I believe people like you are sissies , without weapons or some brainwashed people doing the job for you , you are powerless , you are too sissies do fight like men.

BWS Responds:

How wrong you are.

The firearm was the ultimate achievement of mankind, freeing him from the totality of 'might makes right'. No longer could the state send someone bigger, someone stronger, men in greater numbers, or with more swords to put down those who would not submit to the power of the state. The firearm made men equal.

However, since men are easily brainwashed by the state, man allowed the state to regulate and confiscate privately held firearms, thereby regaining for the state what is crucial to exert its control: a monopoly on the use of force.

Such is the plight of the people, that they so eagerly, through their desire to regulate that which they personally disfavor, grant the state ever increasing authority over their lives.

Statement: Although I support civilian ownership of guns, I believe it must be carefully regulated and all owners need a good understanding of firearms. Again, I don't want to start a gun control discussion. Just pointing out a few things.

BWS Responds:

If you don't want to start a gun control discussion, allow us to substitute peanuts for guns.

Regulated by whom?

Once this individual or group of individuals 'regulates' peanuts, how are these regulations enforced?

Note that 'force' is explicit in the term 'enforce'. To whose authority are you willing to submit in order to enforce 'regulations' regarding peanuts?

How are you gonig to police these regulations?

What will you do if someone 'violates' these regulations? Will you approve of tazing this person? Beating this person? Will you imprison this person? For how long will you authorize the state to imprison this political prisoners who did not follow your 'regulations' ?

Statement: What might happen either is (sic) massive anarchy, mass looting, rape, murder and a lot more bad things.

BWS Responds:

I think there is a misunderstanding of the term 'anarchy' here. That is to be expected given the that the term has been manipulated and defined for the people, via the mainstream media, by the state.

One may ask, in response to a criticism of the 'design' motive inherent in TVP: "What do you propose? Anarchy!?"
One does not 'propose' anarchy. Anarchy is not a proposition. Anarchy is not a destination. Anarchy is a journey. Nor is philosophical anarchy a practical proposal. It is not a system. It is an anti-system. One is correct in suggesting that no historic example exists of functioning anarchy. But the suggestion is oxymoronic. There is no 'functioning' anarchy.

Rather than 'propose' anarchy, one whittles away at the state control mechanism- at regulation and the monopoly on force.

We could eliminate the overwhelming majority of regulation current in place in the modern, western state and be nowhere near philosophical anarchy. We would, however, be much closer to minarchy - and hence liberty.

"When the government fears the people, there is liberty..." -Thomas Jefferson

However, in order to approach liberty, we must resist in every way possible the state's attempts at civilian disarmament (what you call 'gun control')

However, this does not appear to be the tone of this forum or this movement.

Therefore, TVP will simply replace the existing state paradigm, morphing into yet another tool of control, new state paradigm.

This is unfortunate.

To understand the problems you perceive in society, first understand the mechanisms of control and the reality of force. Force is neither good nor bad. However, it exists. To ignore this fact renders any suggestion for 'change' moot. Therefore, to achieve liberty one most ensure the state cannot monopolize force.


Statement: The need for regulation will vanish with proper education. The whole point behind regulating firearms is to ensure that the person in question actually knows how to safely operate one without harming others.

BWS Responds:

Who determines whether or not 'the person in question actually knows how to safely operate one without harming others'? Does the state determine this? The vanguard? Do you determine it? Who is the decision-maker? What if I disagree? What force will you exert upon me to ensure my compliance? What testing procedures will I have to go through in order to ensure that I 'actually' know how to safely operate a firearm? Who will design the test? Who will administer the test? If I fail this test, will you deny me a firearm? How will you deny me a firearm? Will you unleash the force of the state upon me? Will you imprison me?

These are questions proponents of TVP have not pondered with sufficient intellectual rigor.

Statement: Own firearms in a world where there is no practical reason to own them? I don't see that anyone would do anything to them for disagreeing. If they used those firearms to harm people then there would of course be a problem. One of the things the Venus Project talks about is using scientific method to arrive at CONCLUSIONS rather then OPINIONS. We HAVE (pondered these issues), and I can assure Jaque has as well.

BWS Responds:

Then I invite 'Jaque' to come debate his vision on my site. Or you, for that matter.

In reading your responses, and the responses of others, it is clear that TVP fits the classic definition of a cult.

You cannot debate your positions logically or apply intellectual rigor to your conclusions because you begin with the premise, rather than derive the premise through questioning and inquiry.

You begin with the premise of a world in which firearms are obsolete.

Yet again, I resist the side-debate over whether this vision is desirable or not, but instead question your premise.

You cannot begin with a world where things that exist in reality are already 'obsolete'. This is ok in Star Trek. It is not ok in reality. In reality, you must have a plan to implement that which you suggest.

What you have in this community is a commonly accepted starting point that conveniently skips over the realities and challenges of implementation.

You use the euphemism 'design'. In reality, you imply force. But you are able to gloss over the unpleasantness of this term by starting your thought process, and your debate, far down the road.

Jaque asks: If given a clean slate, how would you design a society?

Pol Pot also asked this question, and then implemented the blank slate upon which to 'design' his ideal.

TVP proponents skip over the difficult questions and begin with the blank slate.

Therefore is all serious inquiry glossed over by simply replying that "in a world where X is obsolete, we will not have this problem."

Where will you find the police to render 'obsolete' that which does not fit into your 'design'?

You will find them from the legions of cultists on this forum.

Statement (In answer to my challenge that the Venus Project does not address how this is to be done and how it will handle objectors): Yes it does actually. You handle people who object by eliminating any reason to object. Not by force or coercion, but by destroying whatever stands in the way of everyone being comfortable with the idea. By addressing the problems that create the objection at their root causes rather then creating laws and expecting people to go along with them. (emphasis mine)

BWS Responds:
"By destroying whatever stands in the way of everyone being comfortable with the idea"
Do you understand how frightening this is? Do you understand what you are saying?

Can you not see who else has uttered such words in the past, and what the result has been?


And there you have it. The real agenda uncovered in a few short dialogues.

*****

A New Manifesto

I have just read through the Venus Project manifesto and it seems to me the antithesis of what I (and many others) took away from the movie 'Zeitgeist'.

Regardless of the author(s) intentions, the suggestions contained therein seem the most ambitious manifesto to date for complete central planning and human control I have ever read in my life. The responses of those I encountered on their forum were cult-like.

Therefore I offer up the following:

1. To members of the Zeitgeist Movement and, specifically, supporters of the Venus Project: I offer up my blog to debate you. I invite you to come forth and state your proposals of design for a 'better' society. I will give you all the time and space you want to offer up your views. But come prepared. Email me and I will open up a post dedicated to the exchange of views

2. I offer up this counter-manifesto: Those of us who respect liberty and the individual, those of us who respect the fundamental human right to own property, to own the means of self-defense and to resist the tyranny of the majority (or of the individual) will resist you. Those of us who respect our ties to the land, who respect the circularity of nature and the intrinsic human ties to the soil, we will resist you. Those of who respect the hand-made and the local, the wood over the iron, the organic over the genetically engineered and the individual over the collective will resist you. We will resist you utilizing every means possible, at every corner and every step of the way. We will never surrender. And when your technological, 'designed' utopia begins to enslave its children, when your 'benevolent' leaders give way to your tyrants, we will be there to save you.

Truth is born into this world only with pangs and tribulations, and every fresh truth is received unwillingly. To expect the world to receive a new truth, or even an old truth, without challenging it, is to look for one of those miracles which do not occur--Alfred Russel Wallace
In my last post about circles and circular design, I suggested that environment can play a major role in determining a culture. I recently ran across a site on a new social design by Jacque Fresco and the Venus Project, which originates in Venus, Florida. Yes, his city is in the shape of a circle. And yes, his suggested social design involves a change in "culture" and zeitgeist.


Upon entering the site, you are instantly greeted by spectacular images, portraying streamlined houses, futuristic skyscrapers, flying vehicles and cybernetic cities. The home page begins with this proclamation: "The Venus Project is an organization that proposes a feasible plan of action for social change, one that works towards a peaceful and sustainable global civilization. It outlines an alternative to strive toward where human rights are no longer paper proclamations but a way of life."


I found their idealistic mandate somewhat naïve: "The sole purpose of this sophisticated technology is to free people from boring monotonous tasks, make available a much higher standard of living, and provide more leisure time." And yet... dare we to achieve such a thing? Certainly we can dream. This is the stuff we science fiction writers play with all the time.


The Venus Project's "thinking city" is either an inspirational concept in new city design or a spectacular visual dream with little practical basis. It is, in fact, difficult to interpret which Jacque Fresco's elaborate designs fall under because of the vague, overly simple, often obscure and rather pedantic language used to describe these fascinating concepts. Under the umbrella concept of "Cities that Think"Fresco includes a Cybernated Government, University of Global Resource Management, Subterranean Cities and Intelligent Housing. Reality aside, the project's designs in general city planning, transportation, fuel, housing and recreation are imaginative, very attractive and suggestive of a clean, energy efficient and streamlined future. How the artist's concepts are achieved is another matter.

Here are some examples of their new "world" society:


Cybernated government: "The human mind is far too simple to handle and put to practical use the voluminous information needed to operate a highly technical and advanced world society...Eventually the central cybernated systems will coordinate all of the machinery and equipment that serve the entire city, the nation and ultimately the world. One can think of it as an electronic automatic nervous system extending into all areas of the social complex."



Obsolete Monetary System: "Our current monetary system is not capable of providing a high standard of living for everyone, nor can it ensure the protection of the environment because the major motive is profit...In a monetary system purchasing power is not related to our capacity to produce goods and services. Today money is used to regulate the economy not for the benefit of the general populace, but for those who control the financial wealth of nations."


Resource-Based Economy: "Simply stated, a resource-based economy utilizes existing resources rather than money and provides an equitable method of distributing these resources in the most efficient manner for the entire population. It is a system in which all goods and services are available without the use of money, credits, barter, or any other form or debt or servitude...Earth is abundant with plentiful resources; today our practice of rationing resources through monetary methods is irrelevant and counter productive to our survival."


Like I said, I found that some of the descriptions, particularly of the cybernated government, to be a combination of simplified polemic with condescension and some unrealistic observations. There is a kind of tension in the arguments that in some cases detract from some truly interesting and intriguing ideas. I know what it is... this all reminds me of a hodgepodge Italian Wedding soup of old and new pulp science fiction with some Granola thrown in for spice. The words reflect an edgy new-age pseudo-science that doesn't inspire confidence in the scientist side of me. Yet, the artist dreamer in me soars with the fantastic imagery and wonderful concepts. I want to embrace the magic. The lofty ideals. It's too bad the rhetoric gets in the way...



And the words. They speak to wonderful concepts and a society that is peacefully and serenely integrated with this planet. But a critical word here and there gets in the way or is left out. Take this sentence, for instance: "All of this could only be accomplished in a resource-based world economy where all of the world's resources are held as the common heritage of all of the earth's peoples." Held by whom? And what about life other than humanity? The environment? The very use of the word "resource" implies exploitation. And there is so much unsaid that boggles the imagination.

Heck, maybe all they need is a better copywriter...

Check out the site and let me know what you think. It's definitely worth a discussion.

pervysage Says:

February 2, 2009 at 10:33 am
Wow, I REALLY agree with you. I think the Budda had some interesting things to say on good intentions and bad consequences too. I'm interested in early Eastern anarchist/libertarian thought. Any background for us there BWS?

-Pervy

Reply
VTV Says:

December 30, 2009 at 2:16 pm
Not only will I offer you debate here, I invite you to come to my radio show to discuss this topic. The archive of which will be publicly available.

(347) 945-7747 show call in.

VTV115 is my Skype.

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barbedwiresmile Says:

December 30, 2009 at 2:28 pm
I appreciate your allowing me to participate in the debate. However, I can only do so on-line via email or this blog. Not by telephone. And I do not have access to Skype at the moment for IM.

A question for you as it regards what you see as my preoccupation with "force". If proponents of TVP truly have no desire to use force today (and can guarantee the movement will never use force in the future) then why are you opposed to private ownership of firearms? Guarantee me a right to own the means of my self-defense and you are welcome to attempt to peacefully create any form of society you want, based on the individual's choice to opt in or opt out of that society.

VTV Says:

January 3, 2010 at 3:01 pm
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/v-radio/2009/12/30/v-radio-debunking-an-anti-zeitgeist-blog

joker2600 Says:

February 15, 2009 at 3:04 pm
I enjoy reading your views on the Zeitgeist Movement and The Venus Project. I stumbled upon your blog because the Zeitgeist forums were down. I occasionally take a look outside of the movement itself to reorient myself instead of mindlessly following group-think behavior.

I offer up emergent design, or evolution, as a type of design that exists without force. We as individuals proceed in life doing what we perceive to be the best for our survival. Society as a whole is being constantly redesigned by the acts of the individual.

I agree that right, or truth, is whatever is in the interest of the stronger party and that force applied to individuals is one way to control evolution. However, I believe that the sharing of ideas and the increase of total knowledge also has an affect on our evolution. For example, I recently watched Zeitgeist: Addendum, and now I am a member of the Zeitgeist Movement. No one forced me to join, but I did of my own free will.

The Venus Project has designed a new future for the world as a whole. It is up to the individual to determine if that future is something they wish to attain. The Zeitgeist Movement itself is attempting to transition from our current society into that designed by Fresco.

The way in which we transition is always debated by members. Some propose living off the grid in self-sustaining communities and becoming independent from the current monetary system. Others are focusing on developing opensource solutions to problems. And some like me, believe in utilizing the current system to help build the new one.

I believe in an individual's right to life-including food, clothing, and shelter-and the defense of that life. I don't necessarily agree with ownership of property. I don't see the need to consume or possess more than my fellow humans while our world suffers from pollution and waste. I don't really care for the "us vs. them" mentality because in reality we are all part of the same global organism. I just hope we can evolve before it's too late.

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bob Says:

March 16, 2009 at 12:33 am
I too believe that the venus project has some merit. Your questions are valid and should be answered in time as all questions dealing with change in human bahavior. If suddenly all power were transfered to the very rich and they proclaimed to direct our lives in every way, what would be the effect? Riots, murder, rape? Society has a way of reacting to fast change in the negative. All good change will take decades. But it should be incouraged and refined. And then refined again. We are not perfect and well never be perfect. But we can seek to thrieve for a more perfect union. We should and must seek a more perfect existence with each other and our fellow humnan beings on this planet. If that means changing the way we exchange labor or service or products so be it. If it means we change the way we look at the resource of planet so be it. If it means we change the way inter-act with each other so be it. If it means changing the way and what we teach in our schools from profit of the pocket to profit of the mind and heart so be it. It start with an idea and grows from there. None of this will be in my life time or in yours. But it should be our responsibility as human beings to try.

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Barbedwiresmile Says:

March 16, 2009 at 11:19 am
Guys- what are you saying? What does this even mean? Cultist drivel.

Property is always, by definition, owned. It will either be owned by the individual, or the state / collective / tribe / cult.

And Bob- I cannot make sense of your reply.

The reason the Zeitgeist movement is a cult is because it is all destination, no journey. When only the destination is defined, the journey is easily twisted and contorted. All ends, no means easily becomes "the ends justify the means."

This was true of the Khmer Rouge, it was true of the Cultural Revolution, it was true of Lenin's vanguard, it was true of Hitler's brownshirts. And it would be true of the Zeitgeist movement had it any type of serious following or momentum. As such, it does not. And we are all better off because of it.

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Mattheww Says:

April 2, 2009 at 11:41 pm
BWS, you do the Venus Project's followers a service by so rigorously questioning the organizations tenets; I hope you also see that both their positions and your responses are entirely beside the point.

The Venus Project proposes all-new cities be built from the ground up in the model of the experimental one planned for "Venus, Florida," about which the org's website tells us....

"Fund-raising efforts are currently under way to help support the construction of this first experimental city."

And there you have the entire soup-to-nuts reason for the Venus Project's being. Not to build the city, of course (which would cost hundreds of billions of dollars, never mind getting the thing zoned) but to raise funds for it.

Factnet says the way to know a dangerous cult is it has two aims only: Recruit more members and raise money. The Venus Project? Check and check.

I can't resist adding, though, that Mr. Fresco shrouding his true aim with all that mumbo-jumbo about ABOLISHING money is misdirection so canny I almost have to concede his followers' point that he is some kind of genius.

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Evil von Scarry Says:

May 26, 2010 at 9:16 pm
Personally I cant wait to see the Project Venus experimental city aka 21st century Jonestown start-up. I think about every 20 or 30 years we need some cultist utopians to build something up and then kill themselves off so the rest of the sheep wake up just a little so as not to go off the deep end en masse. Its technocratic fabianism whichever way the want to fluff it up and NWO agitprop at best. So go ahead join your cult Im sure I'll see the Project Venus types on the news at 11....

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Jen Says:

April 7, 2009 at 11:15 am
"destroying whatever stands in the way of everyone being comfortable with the idea. "

Can you back up where you found this concept in actual Venus Project literature? That forum is open to anybody and everyone who gets a login, including non-supporters and is not an accurate measure to gauge the actual Movement. Please back up your statements by citing the movement manual directly. Citing the Zeitgeist forum posts as defining the ideals of the movement is like me citing a response post to you blog as representing your personal views.

TVP is very much a peace movement in opposition of brute force in any way. No more a cult than any other collective that shares ideas/ beliefs.

Jacque Fresco repeatedly says TVP is not a Utopia, that there is no such thing as a Utopia. That language comes from outside the movement. See page 3 of the Zeitgeist Orientation manual, paragraph 2.

I understand your desire to defend property ownership. I'm a libertarian supporter within our current system. But, once you understand that the fundamental NEED to own property comes from living in a monetary system where scarcity is a key component and that the right to own property addresses a real fear of losing value in the current system, you can open your mind to the Venus Project concept. You fear losing property because it represents your value in society. This is a valid fear. In our current system, human rights are tied to having a monetary value for survival: basic needs and beyond and many TVP supporters are also libertarians or former libertarians. BUT in a system designed for abundance, this is a non issue. The Venus Project is not about taking anything from anybody. It is about providing what is available in abundance to everybody. From a supply/demand perspective, this means nothing will have 'value' such as defined in a capitalist model. It is a very difficult concept to grasp because no system of its kind has ever been tried and this is only made possible because of what we have available to us technologically. TVP is all about human rights like never before seen on our planet, you just have to understand the connection to behaviorism and environment and that there will be no need for government in this system. The Future By Design dvd goes into detail about how that is possible and it involves a system open to all humans to input for ideas: very sci-fi sounding, I know, but an amazing concept.

I encourage you to evaluate the Movement from the most direct sources: The films, the Orientation guide, Jacque Fresco's book The Best That Money Can't Buy, the bi-weekly radio address by Peter Joseph - all these can be found on the ZM website or on the Venus Project website. Understand that most people in the forums are still working out the concepts for themselves and aren't all in a position to speak on behalf of the movement as a whole.

- jen

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Ben Moreno Says:

April 8, 2009 at 1:20 pm
I have to agree with Jen that you should not take the queue from the open but rather what you actually find within the movement.

Also, in spite of all the detailed discussion about why this new idea will work or why it won't.

If suddenly all of the worlds resources became available for all people and there was abundance, I seriously doubt you would see mass murder, riots, rape, etc.

People would probably very quickly realize just how bad things actually were. I think Jacque is onto something here. It's too bad he is already so old.

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Ben Moreno Says:

April 8, 2009 at 1:21 pm
Wow, I left two words out of the first sentence. I meant to say, "You should not take your queue (sp: cue) from the open forum."

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Stu Says:

April 23, 2009 at 2:55 am
This is not about a movement, or a cult, or a political system. It's about technology and the human race entering a new age, whether we like it or not.

Efficiency, Automation, and Free Energy are our keys to freedom. We can't continue like this any longer. It's time to get rid of money and work towards a Resource Based Economy.

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Barbedwiresmile Says:

April 24, 2009 at 11:19 am
For those who feel so strongly about technology and "advancing" civilization forward, absent administration of such technology or the use of force by the state/tribe/collective, I would suggest reading or re-reading:

1. Steinbeck: The Grapes of Wrath - particularly the side-narrative regarding the tractor that is disbursed throughout the main narrative.

2. John Seymour - The Self-Sufficient Life

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Jen Says:

April 24, 2009 at 12:41 pm
1) Technology does not advance a civilization where survival is derived from money and money from work. developing technology in a monetary system is a conflict of interest. This is called "technological unemployment" and is addressed by the Zeitgeist Movement. In a monetary system, technology oppressed the working man because it puts the working man out of work. This is NOT AN ISSUE in a Venus Project society as there is NO MONEY. The very design of the society would be to eradicate this problem, so we can stop resenting technology and benefit from it.

2) Again... this Zeitgeist Movement is ANTI-BRUTE FORCE. This is something you are projecting onto the movement, probably because you associate this with political Communism and political Communism with brute force. That is YOUR misinterpretation. If you think that the movement is about brute force because you read that in a forum post then you are reading a post of an uninformed person who doesn't understand the movement- which is possible as it is an open forum. Please reference actual citations to support these claims, which are pretty offensive to supporters of a movement based on designing a society in order to improve the quality of living of every human on earth. You couldn't be more off the mark with your assessment.

So, while you suggested some good literature for reading, it is actually you who needs to do additional reading - on the very subject matter you are critiquing.

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machupichu Says:

December 30, 2009 at 7:35 pm
You're sighting a fictional novel to try to prove a point? I think you just killed your own credibility.

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Ben Moreno Says:

April 24, 2009 at 11:46 am
Another thing regarding the use of the word "cult". If you read all of the direct sources of the movement.

thezeitgeistmovement dot com
thevenusproject dot com

I have read pretty much every piece of text on both sights besides the forum of course and there is nothing there about gathering to collect money. The movement's purpose is to simply increase awareness of these ideas.

Also regarding money, everyone person living within a monetary system is forced to participate to survive. There is of course going to be the use of money going in order to get started.

Anyone with any intelligence at all can see why that is. So before you jump the gun and start attacking something you really don't understand you should look into all angles first, instead going to an open forum when anyone can participate.

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Jen Says:

April 24, 2009 at 12:49 pm
"How design does not imply control and therefore, inherently, force ?"

By addressing the root of problems that require control - by design of available resources - by education - with willing participants who see that it is beneficial. This has not been been attempted in history.

So, your real argument lies in the nature versus nurture debate. If you believe that humans are competitive by biological nature and not by conditioning, this is where we get into the real discussion of the movement, more legit critiques. I fall on the side of competition as being nurtured by our environment, conditioned, but not everyone agrees. That is a more interesting discussion that the issue you raise.

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Barbedwiresmile Says:

April 24, 2009 at 1:15 pm
Jen, while I can respect your articulate defense of the Venus Project, the issue here is ownership, not money.

Until you can explain how private ownership will work and be guaranteed in a society with no monetary exchange, your defense of the Project will largely fall on deaf ears and ultimately have little traction.

If, on the other hand, your position is that, like money, there will be no ownership, well... that has been tried before in many forms. Each has failed spectacularly and with great expense in production and distribution, not to mention human life.

The problem in our economy, and in the economies of most states throughout history, is one of fiat money: too little, rather than to much private ownership; and too much, rather than too little, intervention.

The original Zeitgeist file seemed to focus in on that fact. The follow-up seemed to lose focus. The Venus Project, perhaps yourself excluded, seems to attract the same groups of people that are otherwise impressed with various collectivist, money-eliminating, technocratic models.

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allcapacity Says:

November 24, 2009 at 11:37 pm
Why do people work (early concept)?

One might say that people work for various reasons, well when we look at the history of work, one will see that the primary reason for work originated from the need for subsistence; the minimum (as of food and shelter) necessary to support life. For example early humans would hunter animals and gather fruits and vegetation (natural resources) for such subsistence. They would also inhabit caves and build shelter and make their clothing, all of which were something they POSSESSED (they DID NOT OWN THEM, as the concept had not been derived yet), and would defend all of their possession from any one or thing that may want to take that which they valued or possessed.

Humans would defend their possessions aggressively if need be, because the methods (technology, e.g. spears and catapults) used to acquire those possessions were primitive and required extensive amounts of work or energy and time, and to be robbed of their possession would be equivalent to killing them.
Though humans were mainly nomads deaths from confrontation with other humans was rare, as humans were not so populous at that time.

With passing of time humans became more efficient and effective in their methods of hunting and gathering that it propelled humans to CHANGE their methods for subsistence, and humans soon discovered Agriculture.
Population grew with the efficiency and effectiveness and human confrontations became more frequent, because segregated (by demographics) groups of humans were all searching for the land that had plentiful resources and would provide the best chances of survival.

Why do we own anything (early simplistic concept)?

As an attempt to curb the confrontations humans devised what is currently known as OWNERSHIP; "Ultimate and exclusive right (conferred by a lawful claim or title, and subject to certain restrictions) to enjoy, occupy, possess, rent, sell (fully or partially), use, give away, or even destroy an item of property. Ownership may be 'corporeal' (title to a tangible object such as a house) or 'incorporeal' (title to an intangible something, such as a copyright, or a right to recover debt). Possession (as in tenancy) does not necessarily mean ownership because it does not automatically transfer title."

POSSESSION: the act of having or taking into control.

Definitions from: http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/ownership.html

By analyzing this brief history one may be tempted to assume that ownership therefore eliminated as much confrontations as possible. However, the real reason behind the confrontations was an increase in overall human population (which had limited education and technology, e.g. humans weren't educated about the effects of radical increase in human population on resources and how that led to confrontations, humans limited and misused technology that could provide help and abundance, e.g. Hydroponics has been limited and Top soil has been damaged), which caused the exhaustion or scarcity of resources.

What the TVP proposes: "All resources become the common heritage of all of the inhabitants, not just a select few. The premise upon which this system is based is that the Earth is abundant with plentiful resource"
http://www.thevenusproject.com/a-new-social-design/resource-based-economy

Now here I believe that TVP is referring to resources such as food, shelter, land, minerals, equipment of any sort, etc. And I see why it's a difficult to grasp the concept because it doesn't elaborate on certain relevant issues. What if any one whoever, wants to come and reside in the property you possess without your permission? I will answer that later.

The way I may try to explain it to you:
If you're renting an apartment, that particular apartment is in your possession, but it's in the ownership of the landlord.
In a Resource Based Economy since it's not monetary based property will be in your possession, but in the ownership of Planet Earth, which is your Landlord. Therefore neither you nor others will make any monthly payments to live anywhere, but that particular space your apartment occupies is set aside as your particular possession, no one person sets this, the integrated computer system will tell you at the time of ordering, that a particular location you desire is occupied or not, and if it's not occupied you'll order an apartment in accordance with your tastes, though the system will make recommendations if the order is defying laws of physics or is unsustainable. If it is occupied it will suggest to you other alternative locations based on your particular desired description.
The concept of ownership as we know it today will change to a momentary(it could be a short or long period of time) possession of an earthly good. That means when you want to move to a different area of the world your possessed apartment will be recycled and someone else may take that location. You on the other hand will place another order in the area you're now moving to.
Nothing prevents you or others from doing anything that will affect the earth, others and the system in general negatively, all we'll have as human beings will be EDUCATION as a tool to communicate to other human beings facts by scientific method and to restore anything that's affected negatively, NOT via forceful means.(This does not mean that if someone for example came to confiscate your possessions for whatever reason, that people will not intervene.)
Now back to the question, What if any one whoever, wants to come and reside in the property you possess without your permission?
TVP works in such a way that resources are made abundant, this means if someone needs a place to stay, they can simply order a place to stay. There will be a use of EDUCATION as a vehicle to change the behaviour of individuals if that individual feels different, not force or coercion.
When people are educated about particular things they have a tendency to act differently, only that some will learn things at slower rate than others and some faster than others. Eventually they get the message. And tolerance will be encouraged, as a means through which humans can coexist.
Having said this you can see that it will only be the process of transition that will be the most difficult to implement because TVP is for education and not force or violence.

"We must emphasize that this approach to global governance has nothing whatever in common with the present aims of an elite to form a world government with themselves and large corporations at the helm, and the vast majority of the world's population subservient to them. Our vision of globalization empowers each and every person on the planet to be the best they can be, not to live in abject subjugation to a corporate governing body.
Our proposals would not only add to the well being of people, but they would also provide the necessary information that would enable them to participate in any area of their competence. The measure of success would be based on the fulfilment of one's individual pursuits rather than the acquisition of wealth, property and power."
http://www.thevenusproject.com/a-new-social-design/resource-based-economy

I am a supporter of the TVP, as I see a better, but not perfect, tomorrow. I see the potential in TVP and forums such as yours help address the issues people are having with TVP, and only by addressing those issues head on, will there some sort of clarification for both the TVP and the public in general.
The systems that are at work today have failed miserably to address issues that affect all human beings.
There are variations of Capitalism that have been put forward, but it looks in the long run wealth is concentrated in the hands of a few, who'll in turn be so powerful that they will follow their own agendas.
If you have read a proposed system that sounds plausible to you, please give me some reference so I may do my research and analyze it.

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allcapacity Says:
January 17, 2010 at 2:09 pm
I do hope you see the irony in what you have just uttered?

You see in the system we live in right now, a person like you considers it imperative to own a gun, because you think it'll guarantee your protection. The train of thought that you follow is that; while I own property I'm entitled to defend it from anyone that wishes to appropriate it from me. And if you happen to be a weak person physically a gun will give you the capability to fend off anyone, big or small, that wishes to take that which you own. You may kill that person or you may injure that person, but the fact will be that you would have sent your message, which is: do not mess with barbedwiresmile, and if you do not than you may suffer the consequences.
Now I ask you in light of this, what stops anyone from getting more people, bigger guns, and more ammunition etc than you, to appropriate that which they want or need? In fact what stops you from doing just the same?
The answer is no one, and it all depends on your or anyone's capabilities to do that! Capabilities in this case is the amount of resources you have that allows you to acquire bigger guns, more ammunition and of course convince people to do it with you.

So you see, your proposition of owning guns and private property inevitably leads to some owning more guns and more property than others and therefore control or attempt to control those that are less fortunate. Mind you that those that are less fortunate will be in an environment that would make them be just that, "the less fortunate."
The fact behind it is that those that are more powerful will always exact their will on those that are not so powerful; hence you see what the United States does in its own soil and on a world scale in the name of capitalism, free enterprise, democracy or in the name of the civilized world.
But you see the United States gets this power from its Corporations which use people and resources for their growth.

Owning guns, owning property and exacting laws, have failed to solve the problems that have led to this decadent world state. The system that you so fervently support refuses to address the root causes of these problems. And it seems to me that you fail to see them too.
So you see when you say "I hope your blind faith does not bring me tyranny." It makes me wonder whether or not you are also not just a blind follower, in a system that is actually leading us to a system that is fascist and tyrannical.

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barbedwiresmile Says:

January 17, 2010 at 5:23 pm
What a simplistic and petty view of firearms ownership. There is one element of truth in your post, however: they aways come for your guns.

20 million dead Russians, killed by their own "movement", wished they owned the means to their self-defense. If not to "win", then at least to give the cadres pause. 7 million+ Jews wished they had owned the means to at least die protecting those they loved. 20 million Chinese? 30 million? We'll never know.

Show me an anti-establishment movement that honestly and overtly promotes to private ownership of firearms and I'll take your comments on this seriously. But we all know TVP is anti-firearms. Let's stop this pretense. After all, the peasants must first be disarmed to design the perfect society. Oh right, there will be no peasants with TVP. But whoever there is won't need firearms regardless.

No man is free when the state, tribe or collective has a monopoly on the use of force.

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allcapacity Says:

January 18, 2010 at 2:08 am
"What a simplistic and petty view of firearms ownership."

First of all what is so complicated about the concept of ownership of firearms, and how is my view of little significance?
Firearms are used for defence as well as for control, it's as simple as that. Why would one use it for defence, because somebody's trying to use it for control, why would one use it for control, because they don't want any defence. It is a vicious cycle! Why is it so difficult for you to see that the end product of the ownership of firearms, whether they are used for defence or for control, is that everyone will continue to arm themselves with more and more powerful weapons, and to eventually use them to the detriment of others and the entire planet?
The way I see it, whether people died in the past or will die in the future it is because all systems up to now have failed miserably to address the root causes of the problems we are facing. It is sad that because of this failure to address the root causes of the problems, we find that the ownership of guns or weapons of mass destruction is one of the best measures of defence.
A good metaphor has been said that goes like this: You may stomp on the ants that come from underneath the fridge all you want or you can open the fridge and remove the spoiled food that's causing the infestation of ants to begin with.
Unfortunately all systems to this day have failed to spot the rotten food that is the cause of a myriad of problems we have always faced.

If we look at some cases: someone who just got robbed at gunpoint may think that, if they also had a gun the robbery might not have taken place. The establishment sentences a murderer or a rapist to life imprisonment. A father kills someone defending his family, etc. You see all these cases as well as many others such as the ("20 million dead Russians, killed by their own "movement" " the "7 million+ Jews" or the "30 million Chinese" ), have a root cause, and yes we may punish the abnormal by either killing them or imprisoning them, these solutions are merely temporary, and may generate a greater and larger amount of abnormalities, but one thing is clear all these so-called solutions are actually not solutions at all, they are merely what we call Band-Aid solutions, and fail to uncover and fail to attempt to resolve the real problems, the problems that caused that type of behaviour in the first place.

You ask "Show me an anti-establishment movement that honestly and overtly promotes to private ownership of firearms." Well the Freedom Movement (Alex Jones) does just that.
I would like you to tell me explicitly what you plan to reveal to me by asking me the above question?

" But we all know TVP is anti-firearms. Let's stop this pretence. After all, the peasants must first be disarmed to design the perfect society. Oh right, there will be no peasants with TVP. But whoever there is won't need firearms regardless."

First of all the TVP is not hiding behind some pretence to state its view about firearms, and that is, that firearms are not the solve-all for the problems we face as human beings. Second of all, the TVP proposes that all human beings declare the earth's resources as common heritage of all of the world's people, as well as to consider the current monetary system obsolete. It proposes a "redesign of a culture, in which the age-old inadequacies of war, poverty, hunger, debt, environmental degradation and unnecessary human suffering are viewed not only as avoidable, but totally unacceptable." (http://www2.thevenusproject.com/the-venus-project-introduction/about) and only if everyone considers this proposal viable, then the ownership of firearms or weapons of mass destruction will be highly discouraged, NOT BY FORCE, but by educating humans about the inadequacy of the use of weapons to solve our problems. And third of all, you're sceptical about TVP's position on the ownership of firearms and you think that it targets a specific stratum of society, but the TVP does not target peasants or middle-class or upper-class, it looks into society or Earth as one single organism in which there should be no stratification of people but rather just the relationship of human beings to their environment, Earth inclusive.

"No man is free when the state, tribe or collective has a monopoly on the use of force."

The system you advocate inevitably leads to a concentration of the use of force on the hands of a few, and guess what? The system you advocate is meant to lead to a strategic monopoly.
The TVP does not constitute a state, tribe, the collective or even an ideology; it is simply uses the scientific method to arrive at decisions. Therefore the solutions or alternatives are as close to an empirical base was possible.
The TVP does not advocate the use of force or the concentration of it on the hands of a few. The TVP is formulated in such a way as to avoid and eventually remove conditions for such behaviour, not by just saying it but by presenting practical and implementable solutions.

I would presumptuous enough to say that I think you advocate the use of firearms much like an insurance policy. Better to have one and not need it, than need it and not have one? The reason I make this assumption, is because I don't think that you really mean to want to hurt anyone but owning a gun, but you also do not want anyone to hurt you, those you love, and appropriate that which may belong to you.
What if the reasons that would make anyone to want to hurt you, those you love, and appropriate that which may belong to you were to be addressed so as to revamp and eventually remove the conditions that would cause that type of behaviour to take place? Would you still be so adamant about owning a gun?
Based on the assumption I made above, I will further assume that your focus about gun ownership is really about ownership in general? And if so isn't that really what we should be talking about?

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gillian Says:

January 18, 2010 at 3:34 am
Zeitgeist members are generally aware that the Venus Project operates under a non-profit 501c, but they are blind to the fact that it is a for-profit organization as well.

http://www.manta.com/coms2/dnbcompany_hxlxws

"Venus Project Inc is a private company located in Venus, FL. Current estimates show this company has annual revenue of $120,000 and employs a staff of approximately 2."

The Venus Project, Inc. also currently operates under the name "Global Cybervisions" and was actually established in February, 1995.
Reference:
http://www.corporationwiki.com/Florida/Venus/the-venus-project-inc-6481878.aspx

Donations to the Venus Project via their website go to their non-profit sector, but other revenues go to the for-profit sector, which is not listed anywhere on their website. The fact that the Venus Project is secretly operating under three names is dubious, since Zeitgeist members are currently laboring for the Venus Project under the impression that there is no profit motive involved.

Also:

Back in 1974, when Jacque Fresco of the Venus Project appeared on Larry King, he was misrepresented as having a PhD in Human Factors Engineering.

http://s463.photobucket.com/albums/qq360/pjcheat/?action=view&current=jacquefrescoonlarryking1974-phdclai.flv

Notice how Fresco winces as his false credentials are read, but he does not clarify to Larry King that he is not a doctor of anything, but is in fact self-taught. This oversight is more likely to be fraudulent than innocent as detailed here:

http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/01/18/dr-jacque-fresco-phd-in-human-factors-engineering/#comment-135

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Raphael Thomure Says:

January 23, 2010 at 3:37 am
I'll give you a pat on the back just for the utter endeavour in this post.

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Steven Vornov Says:

January 29, 2010 at 12:17 pm
Hi send me an email. I appreciated your kind words. I asked Eric to disable my account and I will not return.

Jerseycitysteve

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Enarca Says:

February 25, 2010 at 8:36 am
Hi! i am 23, and i cant believe i have the whole threat.
i found out about zeitgeist not that long ago through UCLA peers. I have to thank both TVP, BWS, Jen, MachuPichu, allcapacity for helping clear some doubts that i had about TVP. I hope, BWS, that you take no offense on the following, but some of your arguments and rebuttals (which are legit), do show that you have not read thoroughly and with an open-minded position the contents of TVP and therefore not gasped the message it conveys. I am grateful though for where your questions had led me, to belief more on TVP and what human education can achieve. Education, perception and mind is the only thing real... and through a system like that we can achieve endless knowledge on ANY human field we desire to. Lets say, BWS that, HYPOTHETICALLY TVP is not good enough for you, you still find it very flawed and not worth of a shot (i am implying that you think that, i am aware) answer me this please, is the goal a bad idea? where are we now? are you happy with the world now? 98% of the world population is suffering or dying under oppression, modern day slavery and/or manipulation of the 2%... the economic system is collapsing, we have to become aware and assimilate to a better future... THE PATHWAY STARTS WITH EDUCATION (this is in regards to your comments of being a goal rather than a journey and "the end justifies the means"), thats the first step, by understanding it we will embrace it and make it eventually, a reality. Do you have a better idea? maybe just wait the economic individualistic system just magically turns on itself and starts given without asking? whats your plan? remenber that america is one privileg country is easy for us to say "go to the cambodian's graves of pol pot regime" but where you when that happened? are still in cambodia now to talk about their economic repression? In my humble opinion TVP is not something that is coerced in anyone, is something logic and so, but so good, that it becomes utopian, silly and therefor not worth of our time or interest. BUT! once people know that it is possible, that it can happen, that technology allows us, with-out a monetary system and oligarchies, to be happy, then we embrace it and at least we become aware that it is not JUST a dream, we CAN make it happen, we have to make it happen! otherwise we are doomed; sadly with all the technological progress, comes hand in hand with the greed, violence and power thirst that can never be quenched, fueled and guided by the monetary system, (which can buy all but real happiness, the happiness that comes when you realize that we are all one. That the human you are killing, stealing or deceiving is at the end is yourself, the happiness of given happiness has no price). Doomed beacuse if we choose not to change or change in the terms of a flawed systems, we are bounded to suffer and pain. 98% of the world BWS, how can anyone say that we are fine? money was not evil (thanks to however said it, i thought it was), it was just a transition, a necessary transition, we must now move on. EDUCATION and technology for everyone. no more underdeveloped countries, no more gullivle poeple that will die for some other persons beliefs and benefits, no more boundaries that separate us, no more wars or sick violence. one earth, we as a whole thinking and inventing, learning and sharing, we as whole being happy, living and exploring, 100 years of life will fall short. We will thrive ultil the sun starts diying, or we will maybe have expanded to other planets? maybe another galaxy? maybe even move our planet? WHO KNOWS???!!! is our critical thinking that takes us forward! our ability to wonder and ponder questions... is called natural philosophy or science!
i for one believe in TVP because it is feasible, it can be attained and we MUST make something happen beacuse if we just keep blaming and pointing fingers at past or current figures or issues, time is going to fly and the next generations will have less and less time. I hope change comes with-out violence like Rootnode said, but i also doubt it.
All in All i want to thank again the people and all poster in this threat very much, speacially BWS for allowing an open discussion and sheeding light into what in my opinion is the best option in our breaking table.

PS: Jen, allcapacity and machupichu, how can i get in contact, i also think we are on the same page.

peace

Reply
Enarca Says:

February 25, 2010 at 8:46 am
sorry about my grammatical errors and missing words, i hope you guys can make sense of what my message is. in my defense, english is my second language, i was born in Peru and came to the us 4 years ago. Second, is 6 in the morning and i have a speech to give today morning (doing research is how i stumbled on this threat).

Reply
Ted Schabacker Says:

March 9, 2010 at 7:31 pm
@BWS

I Think this discussion is getting a little sidetracked.

In an RBE, If posessing a gun makes you feel safe or happy, thats just fine. Just don't be suprized when people give you wierd looks. But, noone will bother taking it away from you, because you'd either have or be able to get all the things you would need or want so you would have no motive to hurt anyone. Besides, it would come in handy if the machines were ever to revolt (this is actually very unlikely for the AI's would probably be able to make yet another system in their place and join the humans in the quest of life) but it can also be used for recreation as well. Target shooting is fun.

also I don't think anyone who joined the ZM were forced to do so. and I don't think anyone has to be forced to change their way of life if they think it's right. all those instances of communism failed because they came to early. untill now we didn't have sufficient technology to sustain a true RBE, so they still had scarcity of resources which were competed for and thus monopolized by the ruling elite and they still needed human workers who eventually got pissed at the realization that nothing had changed. But, today, we don't have that excuse. Today, people shouldn't have to work for anyone because almost all jobs can be automated and people shouldn't have to fight for resources because there is enough to go around. it is only a mater of how people utilize the scientific method and thus their technology in order to get those goods and services distributed in a manner that satisfies everyone. Once we get a demo city going, and it turns out to be a success, then people can just go visit and see how well it goes and realize that this is better and change themselves. or they can even give their own input on how they can improve the system. basically if it works, people will join without any force at all.

The truth should not have to be armed.

I hope this clarifies any missunderstandings we all may have. furthermore I hope that one day, you will be able to see the feasibility and the merit in what the VP and ZM have to say. but you will probably swallow this up in one little sentence fragment: "Too Long; Didn't Read." That's what it looks like you have done throuout the whole comment history.

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Adam Shafffer Says:

March 22, 2010 at 6:33 pm
Hello BWS, I am a member of the Zeitgeist Movement and I would be happy to have a debate with you about the ideas behind the Venus Project. It would most likely have to be via email or a forum. If you are interested in having a genuine discussion about this topic please email me.

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Dialogues with the Venus Project (Zeitgeist Movement) « About Zeitgeist and The Venus Project Says:

July 17, 2010 at 7:11 pm
[...] http://barbedwiresmile.wordpress.com/2009/01/31/dialogues-with-the-venus-project-zeitgeist-movement/ [...]

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Will Says:

September 27, 2010 at 7:55 am
Look guys, I watched the movie checked out the website even looked up cult references. So far...so far...I completely satisfied. While I may have questions on some of the info presented (only because I don't know otherwise), I have no reason to try to debunk anything at this time, it's a good ideal. I don't see a "One Leader figure" and I wouldn't except one. I just see a guy with a good vision. Hell, I have the same one. Now, if I start getting hassled for money, or for inviting others to join in the movement, or if sex becomes an issue I'll wash my hands of it. I for one am not gullible or stupid. That being said, if information comes to light that sets off alarms, again I will wash my hands of it. What I see isn't a cult as I know a cult to be, it's just a positive movement. If I have made a mistake by joining a facebook group, who cares? We live, we learn. I will say for a guy who is ex-military and a talented and productive employee and a dedicated student late in life, I have seen my share of hardship and misery. Not only of myself but of others as well. I have had employers break promises and seen yes men get promotions to the point that I had already realized most of the points that the movement expresses before I ever heard of them. None of this will ever happen in our life time. I will never give this group any money. I will however follow the ideal and recommend the movie to friends.If this is a cult it's a lousy one. The special interest groups that line the pockets of our government are more cultish than TZM could ever be...but if in time I find anything that stinks...I wash my hands of it. It's that simple.

Reply
Zeitgeist and Venus Project Links « Zeitgeist Movement Exposed Says:

November 6, 2010 at 11:04 pm
[...] http://www.barbedwiresmile.wordpress.com/2009/01/31/dialogues-with-the-venus-project-zeitgeist-movem... [...]

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Edwin K Says:

February 6, 2011 at 5:56 pm
man these guys are creepy.
at first i thought this whole 'no money' thing would work, but they're going about it completely wrong, if they want this kind of thing to work they shouldn't enforce it onto people.

definitely not looking to join these guys now.

like they say in Dragons Den; 'I'm out'.

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sfgirl-thealiennextdoor blog comments


Catana said...
Placed in the context of current and future problems, none of which are yet being addressed in any serious way, this project is pure frivolity. Just one more in a long line of idealistic utopian projects that will go nowhere. Arcosanti comes to mind.
March 19, 2009 at 12:04 PM

SF Girl said...
For those of you who aren't familiar, Arcosanti is the name of the experimental town whose construction began in 1970 north of Phoenix. Designed by architect Paolo Soleri, it uses the concept that he coined arcology (a "portmanteau" of blended ecology and architecture) as an eco-friendly town; essentially a city whose features integrate with the environment and minimize the destructive impact on the earth. Here's more about the town in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcosanti

As for these projects going nowhere... I'm not so sure about that. Albeit their utopian nature and paradoxical combination of naive rhetoric is hard to take seriously--there is always something to be gained from such visions. These are not unlike the visions portrayed by science fiction writers of new and different worlds (see my next blog post... :) ... We are all writing our future...
March 19, 2009 at 12:32 PM

Jean-Luc Picard said...
I hadn't heard of Arcosanti.

I'm more optimistic about those projects. They seem to cover a higher level of design and thought that has yet to be sought by most.
March 19, 2009 at 12:47 PM

SF Girl said...
Yes, they have certainly put a lot of thought into their designs. They are visually stunning and attractive (but they somehow remind me of that popular British puppet TV action show I used to watch as a kid ... I think it was called "Thunderbirds")... LOL! Anyway, I digress... I DO like their optimism and willingness to share a wonderful vision to the extent they have. Things to ponder...
March 19, 2009 at 2:05 PM

Baby Brie said...
When I looked at the pictures, the first thing that crossed my mind was, "Where are all the people?" ..."Is this place habitable?" What about children and families and education and cultural diversity and community events? I suppose it looked all too automated. I realize that the designer was probably trying to address the inequitable distribution of the earth's wealth and resources but sounded a lot like he figured if he designed this wonderful city, people would fall into place. I congratulate his wish for a better future and his ability to think out of the box. Now we need someone to take his ideas and make them workable.
March 20, 2009 at 8:30 AM

Heather Dugan ("Footsteps") said...
I know it takes a leap of faith to get anywhere interesting, but that's a heck of a jump.
I find it difficult to believe people could be enticed to switch to a barter-only market system.
March 20, 2009 at 1:52 PM

blackburn1 said...
I couldn't agree with you more, Nina. Beautiful, inspiring images fill of clean, pristine architecture. In this currently dysfunctional economy, who wouldn't desire the vibrant green and utopian self-cleaning white towers?

Unfortunately, as with countless other dreams and confections, the issue of a viable, efficient power source continues to be a rude awakening. =\
March 20, 2009 at 1:54 PM

SF Girl said...
I thought the same thing, Baby Brie! LOL! All a little too clean...HAR! And we all know what happens when assumptions about people are made... Certainly not giant leaps, like Heather mentioned.


Yes... that is the definition of a utopia, isn't it, Blackburn... it takes more than imagination to realize a dream.

But, seriously, am I the only one who believed the Thunderbirds?
March 20, 2009 at 3:15 PM

Anonymous said...
Ah, the classic utopian dream. The "needs" of all are taken care of allowing homo sapiens the freedom to be artistic, to study, to create and possibley evolve. The problem is that humans are involved!!

Maslow's Triangle postulated that once one's basic needs (food, shelter) were met and that provisions for the future and continuance of the family were assured that one would then be free to attend to higher purposes and devote excess capacity to philanthropic service.

The assumption is that all members of society will do their best to support that society and take only what they need.

Unfortunately, there are those who feel that they need a lot more that others. There are those that feel that if they are working harding than others they deserve more than others and there are those who will do as little as possible and take as much as they can get.

There will be those who will do whatever it takes to be in charge of the distribution system.

There will those who will come to realise that the cost of Utopia in terms of freedom and choices is too high.

A Brave New World.

Nina - Don't forget, the Thunderbirds were a police style organization fighting against evil doers and assiting in disasters.

Limberger
March 22, 2009 at 11:31 AM

SF Girl said...
LOL! Thanks for your insightful comments, Limberger.

Yes, I remember the premise of the Thunderbirds now! ... And very much in keeping with the "benevolent" wishes of those in charge of said "utopia"...

Here's what Wikipedia says about Utopia:

"Utopia is a name for an ideal community or society, taken from the title of a book written in 1516 by Sir Thomas More describing a fictional island in the Atlantic Ocean, possessing a seemingly perfect socio-politico-legal system. The term has been used to describe both intentional communities that attempted to create an ideal society, and fictional societies portrayed in literature. "Utopia" is sometimes used pejoratively, in reference to an unrealistic ideal that is impossible to achieve, and has spawned other concepts, most prominently dystopia.

The word comes from Greek: οὐ, "not", and τόπος, "place", indicating that More was utilizing the concept as allegory and did not consider such an ideal place to be realistically possible. It is worth noting that the homophone Eutopia, derived from the Greek εὖ, "good" or "well", and τόπος, "place", signifies a double meaning that was almost certainly intended. Despite this, most modern usage of the term "Utopia" assumes the later meaning, that of a place of perfection rather than nonexistence." ...

...so, even its definition embraces contrast in its interpretation. I must confess to leaning on the "idealist" side of the balance between blind optimism, realism, and cynicism (blind pessimism)... And, yes, there is always a realistic cost in any ideal, usually borne out of naivity and innocence (the originator of trust, faith and hope)... You mention Brave New World (no doubt referring to the title of Huxley's classic distopian "utopia") the lines of which were uttered as irony in Huxley's book by the character John and based, again, ironically on Shakespeare's original line by the truly innocent Miranda (in The Tempest), who, after remarking on how beautiful humanity is, proclaims: "O, brave new world that has such people in't!"

Somewhere, between the purity of innocence and the sourness of jaded cynicism through experience lies a place where most of us reside.

There will always be a place for utopian literature, utopian social design and utopian politics... If nothing else, it stirs our imagination and our thoughts up from the mundane.

It is the stuff of dreams...
March 22, 2009 at 10:41 PM

SF Girl said...
p.s. for some lively discussion on the Venus Project--politics, philosophy, social design and planning, city planning, and all manner of things--check out this forum (On Little Bites of Point), which contains over 500 comments:

http://www.pointbite.com/2008/10/08/zeitgeist-addendum-and-the-venus-project-hoax/

Promise you'll come back here and tell me about it... :)
March 22, 2009 at 11:21 PM

blackburn1 said...
I'm familiar with Thunderbirds, but only by reference. What aspect of their culture are you referring to?

Several attempts to revive the franchise. Large writeup at Wikipedia.
March 23, 2009 at 11:05 AM

SF Girl said...
I was initially thinking of and referring to the physical nature of the sets and designs of the show. The sets were elaborate "dioramas" of neat places that looked a lot like the elaborate constructions shown in the Venus Project... in Limberger's reference to utopias, he brought up the ironic fact that the main characters of the Thunderbirds were part of a futuristic "police/search & rescue" squad set in 2026-2065.
March 23, 2009 at 1:01 PM

blackburn1 said...
Ah... yes, I've always been fascinated with the idea of self-contained cities, and even more when it's a massive spacecraft, like an ark.

Loved the concept of 'The Starlost', even if the low budget resulted in some laughable episodes.
March 24, 2009 at 1:09 PM

SF Girl said...
HAHA... Yes, they were all kinda cheezy back then. Kier Dullea, right? I loved him in 2001...speaking of self-contained cities... you get a lot more about my envisioned self-contained city, Icaria, in my prequel to "Darwin", called "Angel of Chaos"... out this fall with Dragon Moon Press big grin)...
March 24, 2009 at 1:25 PM

blackburn1 said...
A plug! :D Another book to put on my list.
March 26, 2009 at 7:03 AM

SF Girl said...
Yup yup...HAHA! Yeah, thanks, Blackburn!
March 26, 2009 at 8:13 AM

TJ said...
Held by whom?
By no one but our Genius Of Design aka GOD.
^o*
April 1, 2009 at 2:22 AM

SF Girl said...
Indeed, TJ, indeed...God and Nature's wisdom... our best instructors
April 1, 2009 at 8:25 AM

Mattheww said...
Discussions about the inconvenient implications, never mind the wild impracticality, of all this are entirely beside the point.

The Venus Project proposes all-new cities be built from the ground up in the model of the experimental one planned for "Venus, Florida," about which the org's website tells us....

"Fund-raising efforts are currently under way to help support the construction of this first experimental city."

And there you have the entire soup-to-nuts reason for the Venus Project's being. Not to build the city, of course (which would cost hundreds of billions of dollars, never mind getting the thing zoned) but to raise funds for it.

Factnet says the way to know a dangerous cult is it has two aims only: Recruit more members and raise money. The Venus Project? Check and check.

I can't resist adding, though, that Mr. Fresco shrouding his true aim with all that mumbo-jumbo about ABOLISHING money is misdirection so canny I almost have to concede his followers' point that he is some kind of genius.
April 3, 2009 at 12:15 PM

SF Girl said...
LOL! Great comment, Mattheww! Yes, the irony of "genius" indeed... There are many kinds of geniuses...
April 4, 2009 at 2:23 AM

Anonymous said...
I fully support the venus project and the zetgeist movement. This current system is failing and although this idea is far fethched and hard to beleive in, so was the world being round at one time, or in evolution. Everything is changing all the time, maybe we should try something new.
Unity. Peace. Love.
-Amanda Kl.
April 8, 2009 at 5:19 PM

Anonymous said...
I forgot to say that the houses already exist that J. Fresco designed. This isn't too far out there. It's smart and necessary if we are to evolve into something better instead continuing this path that will lead to WW3 and the end of many living things. I mean, electricity is a pretty amazing thing. Why not treat this project as you would support the talk of electricity if we lived in the 1800's or whenenver (the time doesn't matter, the idea and point do).
Unity. Peace. Love.
- amanda kl.
April 8, 2009 at 5:23 PM

SF Girl said...
Yes, let's keep dreaming...
April 8, 2009 at 10:45 PM

Anonymous said...
Once upon a time, the Earth was flat and the sun revolving around it. Telling the contrary would send you to the stake.
Look at the way you live today and compare that to how your parents or grand parents were living at the time, and tell me again that the Venus Project is totally bogus.
My grand mother says that she saw the biggest scam of her life when they showed the movie of the first men walking on the Moon :D
Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Now I don't understand why it is so impossible to imagine a world in which there is no need for money. I just believe that it is impossible to keep on living as we do today, destroying consciously the environment in order to create more financial profits.

I am a fan of Huxley, I read the Island and loved everything he had to say about education...

People open your minds, have we been so well formatted that we can't use our imagination anymore ?

The Venus Project is linked to the Zeitgeist movement, so I invite you to go and check the FAQ's on the site, any other questions, feel free to ask because we will be happy to continue working on how to improve that project, which we state, right from the beginning, is not perfect. So your input is welcome, constructive criticism is always good.

Zeitgeist Activist
April 16, 2009 at 3:46 AM
Anonymous said...
WoW!!!

a canadian talking about like she knows what the american lifestyle is like. I know the Venus Project ideology affects every aspect of the earth. Ive lived in Los Angeles my whole life and I know how ugly in can get. There is more people here everyday, there is more crime every week and less money to go around.

This so called monetary system is a dead end. If you watched zeitgeist you would know it's only a means for the government to enslave the human race. I admit the Venus Project has its flaws but nothing is perfect in its beginning stages.

Let me remind you about the crazy story of two guys who wanted to fly like birds. Sounds crazy right?

Of course it sounds like science fiction but hello every technology we have now was science fiction at one point.


At least the venus project and zeitgest movement is trying to improve and help the way of human life.


The comments here from the nonbelievers are so ridiculous, it doesn't even make sense. I dont think they've even seen zeitgeist with their nonsensical dribble.
May 16, 2009 at 11:26 PM

Anonymous said...
Nothing in this article gave me any reason to think the Venus Project isn't a legitimate option for humanity. The author is guilty of many influence principles or persuasion techniques . Watch the movie "Thank You For Smoking" for an example of the measures of influence this author is using. Do not make up your mind based on this article.
July 18, 2009 at 4:13 PM

Anonymous said...
About the venus project. . .

If you are going to say it's naive or ignorant to the way the world actually works, maybe read the entire site first. Education, food, living arrangements have been thoughts of. It would not be a barter environment, it is basically putting everyone in a situation to be honest. Without the challenge of competition to survive, we would be living in a world where you can do/have everything without having to step on others for it.

Medical fields are relying more and more on machines rather than gut instinct, although instinct shouldn't be ruled out, machines provide a far more accurate assessment. Based on family size, and having a machine determine your needs for food, you could easily figure out the amount and ingredients required to sustain you, as well as the food being tasty. Apply that kind of thought process to the whole venus project and you might be getting out of thoughts related to today's world and more into the idea of a completely different, (better?) world.

Most of the venus project maintains that we will eventually have to use the sea for a living environment and by living in a hot climate where the ocean is the most important, I would think that many would love to live near/on/beneath the sea. Zoo's are a sad place for animals to dwell but we have them because we want to see the way animals live. Imagine if you just lived in that place to see them act as they normally would, and it doesn't cost you a dime or put you in an unsafe situation.

Money is the cause of stress in our lives which usually results in all the other problems we deal with daily. If your partner doesn't have a job and the market is horrible, even though that is the case, you will be angry when you come home and there is no food. You will hate going to work because most jobs that have to be filled are crap, your home life sucks because you cannot afford all the things you are being told make us "awesome, beautiful people." When that happens and your best friend or family can afford those things, that create's tension and competition with the people you love.

Please, please, please open your minds to something that is possible with the right ideas and acceptance from you, all of you. What if it could be like this, what if it could and we all say "no" just to keep our crappy, stressed out, falling from love, lives.

Maybe it's just me and I'm just a hopelessly optimistic person. But, I know which way I'm going.

Thank you for reading!
July 23, 2009 at 8:56 PM

Anonymous said...
600 yrs ago the Americas were unknown to the those in the East. We need to unite and get off this rock. What is frivolous is the constant pursuit of money to live. The Venus Project does not claim to set up a utopia. Rather they seek to make a better system than what we have now using the scientific method. Sounds logical to me and really not that far fetched. This can be done and I hope others will open minds and hearts to this approach.
July 30, 2009 at 5:33 PM

SF Girl said...
I do so agree with you! We DO need to change our cultural paradigm, which is "money" based...or more to the point "me" based... If you can come up with a way to change the very nature of how most of us think (e.g., from a selfish to a more altruistic way) you will have come up with NIRVANA... I'd like to think it is possible. I HAVE to think it's possible and that there is hope. I have a little theory about it, in fact, and it has to do with CLIMATE CHANGE, harsh environments and humanity's evolution... :)
:)
:)
... more later...

Hope lies in dreams, in imagination, and in the courage of those who dare to make dreams into reality--Jonas Salk

"To not dare is to have already lost. We should seek out ambitious, even unrealistic projects...because things only happen when we dream."--Andrée Putnam

Keep dreaming.
July 30, 2009 at 5:46 PM

Anonymous said...
Some people should actually research TVP before commenting. There is no "barter system" for example. Jacque Fresco blatantly states it isn't going to be a "utopia". It has nothing to do with socialism or communism or technocracy.

I should know - I've met him in person and discussed these things. Travel to Venus, Florida and actually visit the site. There is so much more than just a few vague "lines" you have heard mentioned. It is much, much more in-depth. Take the tour, listen to him, then form an opinion.
August 19, 2009 at 8:35 PM

Anonymous said...
Look, I'm no scientist nor would I consider myself highly educated. However, regarding Fresco's vision of the future is not a "barter-only" as one commenter noted, instead it is based on the capabilities to mass produce not just a product, but the best of a product that will last the longest and be the most efficient of it's particular type, as well as have as little impact on the environment as possible. The point is to allow anyone and everyone to have access to all products and to have input in making them better. The resource part of it is renewable, ergo it's an endless supply. How can allowing machinery to take jobs away from humans be a bad thing? Under the current capitalist system, it happens and then those people have no money to survive then turn to the gov't to support them. This dream society allows us to live more leisurely, not unlike how we live more leisurely now compared to, say the average human during 1850. With access to limitless resources (products and energy) humanity can truly achieve an equal footing among all people while eliminating the worst problems in our current society such as war, poverty, disease, environmental destruction, etc.
August 20, 2009 at 1:48 PM

ivan said...
Go to YOUTUBE and search on The Venus Project/ Zeitgeist Movement Activist Orientation Part 1

There are 10 videos in all which give more in depth details.

However it does not explain how to transition from A Monetary System to a Resource one. That would be the key

What I do agree with is that if everyone is giving free shelter food, clothes and essential products for free then money is out the window and so is working because at a basic level that is why most people currently work.

And if you haven't noticed, jobs are getting more scarce these days causing more people to not be able attain these basic necceseties
August 21, 2009 at 12:33 PM

SF Girl said...
Thanks, Ivan and others... interesting thoughts. Especially about the whole money part. What you're talking about is essentially about altruistic behavior. That's the core of this whole argument and why some consider it untenable shlock and others dream of its attainment. It comes down to our own philosophy and whether our values come from the heart or from superficial things. And whether the glass is half full or half empty...
August 21, 2009 at 4:32 PM

Sam Deeks said...
The Venus Project lost my interest in the first 5 seconds.

Why? 2 things:

1) Shopping Cart on front page. A 'complete redesign of culture'? I think not.

2) 'Get Involved'...er.. by buying things.

Its predictably exploitative and cynical but expect more (a lot more) such palatable new age techno-bullshit in the near future.
August 23, 2009 at 3:59 AM

Anonymous said...
Ive read most of these post and sadly, the mind set is the same which is why "things" are the same. Wake up people. This system dosent work that we have now, so why continue with a broke system because we over think or over question something new. And if you think the system aint broke its only because it hasent hurt you...yet! ask the millions of starving homeless people how well the system works. Im afraid Its going to take a global catastrophy that anialates most of the population before people wake up and realize money isnt the solution, because it will only be good for fire fuel then
August 29, 2009 at 9:38 AM

SF Girl said...
I agree with you, Sam... when "exploitation" accompanies "altruism"... it's no longer true altrusim.

Anonymous, yes, we are sadly in need of a paradigm change. Climate change is showing us that. But money isn't the problem... it's just the symptom. Greed is the problem.
August 29, 2009 at 10:37 AM

greengoatpie said...
Hmmm... shall I remain a sentient human being or blindly become an automated drone in another ugly city based upon science fiction imaginings of what Atlantis may have looked, governed and behaved like. I choose the former, as my brain is too "simple". The Venus Project and the Zeitgeist Movement are the stuff of intellectual flotsam concocted by Jacque Fresco, whose ideas would serve to work much better on a very small scale, like a building, or a commune out in the desert. The mock-up he presents, if fully realized, would either collapse from its overwrought utopian frivolity or succumb to a totalitarian regime where the "citizens" are enslaved by the new dogma. Their heart's desires would never qualify. Adolph Hitler would have loved this.
September 8, 2009 at 9:05 AM

Anonymous said...
I support the Venus Project.

As a human being I know that the Earth has enough resources to go around... on the contrary, as a citizen of the current economy we live in, I know there is not enough money to go around. So, if we all want a better life for ourselves and our future generations, why keep living in a fake economy that doesn't (and can't) provide for everyone?

It makes sense to work toward a better future for all by leveraging current and new technologies.

In the current economy, I fear the day I am down on my luck for too long because it will chew you up and spit you out (i.e. homelessness and begging for a break).

If you don't have dreams, you don't have much at all.
September 20, 2009 at 8:56 PM

Dr. Leo Rebello said...
I support the Venus Project idea.
It can be achieved, it should be achieved and it is possible. This is more or less what over 100 best minds have said in my forthcoming book "World Without Wars". This is not utopia, but oughtopia -- what ought to be. And to those who say it is impossible, I say, impossible is I'm possible.
www.healthwisdom.org
September 23, 2009 at 6:49 AM

Seacoast said...
It should indeed be more difficult for a human being to imagine the world the way it is right now than to imagine the world the way the venus project outlines it! Continue to share the knowledge and the ideas--the truth will succeed, we just need to share it.
September 29, 2009 at 11:13 AM

shanon said...
I believe it can work.... It will need a military to protect it or the project will never survive.
October 8, 2009 at 9:52 AM

Anonymous said...
All the people who support the monetary system are either rich or ignorant to the fact that its a scam. As far as the venus project trying to raise money it's common sense they need to convert money into land before they can start living this way. You can't just point at a spot and say we will build it here for obvious reasons. Once this money is converted then they are able to start living in a different manner and once this new way of living is expanded enough the old way will fall to the new one but i guess it couldnt hurt to follow the money bcuz of course there is the possibility its accumulating in his bank account and hes just drawing some pictures to sell an idea but personally i think hes sincere and only time will tell, i would like to hear about control are ppol going to be completely free or partialy, will people police them selves. Because as soon as a society has an authority figure its no longer free, and id also want to know how they feel about biometrics because my body is mine not societies, also are their going to be illegal plants in this society?
October 10, 2009 at 7:10 PM

Dr. Fang said...
I completely disagree with the Venus Project. It is creating socialism with a shiny shell. Where is the Constitution this whole time? Our founding fathers had it right when they created our government.
October 13, 2009 at 7:36 PM

Anonymous said...
For people that think the Venus Project is BS, you are most likely one tracked mind or uneducated about the issues. Of course it would be difficult, but the future of the human species and the earth itself depends on our ability to treat each other.

The point is the road that we as humans are on, is destined for destruction. We need a 180.
October 13, 2009 at 8:17 PM

Anonymous said...
Jaques Fresco has worked a lifetime on these ideas. He is 90 something years old and will if nothing else leave us with some amazing ideas for living. I agree that capitalism is not working but people can't "imagine" a world with no possesions yet. I think we need a huge shift to make something like this work. I believe it will come faster than you think.
October 15, 2009 at 3:08 PM

SF Girl said...
Yes... we are definitely poised and primed for a change in our social paradigm and "ideology"... the traditional laissez-fair Capitalist model that embraces whatauthor Ayn Rand calls "rational selfishness" just isn't doing us justice. I talk about it in this post of Alien: http://sfgirl-thealiennextdoor.blogspot.com/2009/10/in-search-of-new-paradigmpart-1-is-our.html...

We do have other choices... and some of us are making them...
October 15, 2009 at 7:00 PM

Trixie said...
my biggest issue with the Venus Project is the fact that it doesnt take so very much into account. for example, in this utopian society, what exactly is the solution for the mentally ill or the sociopathic? what do we do with the criminally insane? or just criminals in general? what about those who truly just want to see the world burn?

dont get me wrong, i think the idea of a "perfect" world, but i know full well in my very best and most easy moments, there was still a sociopathic desire to just make others miserable. theres no greater high than bullying, that i have found, and i can only imagine the absolute need to for someone who is truly ill or deranged.
October 19, 2009 at 2:31 PM

Anonymous said...
Trixie, you speak as if you either missed the part, in Zeitgeist, that most criminals are criminals due to circumstantial conditioning of their respected social classes, or you didn't watch it. There is Zeitgeist and a second film, Zeitgeist: Addendum. TVP is mentioned in the second film as well as many FAQs and common concerns about a shift to this new way of living.

As for the insane or physically/mentally disabled, I am almost certain more 'abled' people would be more than willing to help the aforementioned types if they didn't have to worry about aquireing currency to survive. Who knows, if more people are devoted tech, perhaps we could simply zap that unfortunate mental gene.
October 22, 2009 at 10:28 PM

Xavier Lee said...
Anonomyous you contradicted yourself, if you were asking would there be illegal plants. There can't be illegal plants because his model does not have laws, but instead smart technology.
October 25, 2009 at 9:44 AM

Samuel A. Falvo II said...
@Xavier, where did Anonymous contradict himself? And where did drugs come into this?

Drug users have been asked about before, and like other people who are sick, will be treated as such. There are two avenues: (1) said individual acknowledges his problem and goes to an infirmary of his own volition, or (2) commits a crime, is apprehended, the crime is determined to be drug induced, and is again sent to the infirmary for drug rehab.

This isn't rocket science, but critical thinking is required on the part of the skeptic.

There are other issues with the Venus Project that you could point out as potential faults. This one, very clearly, isn't one of them.
October 25, 2009 at 8:48 PM
peace love and understanding said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
October 28, 2009 at 1:55 PM

Anonymous said...
People sure like to write their own versions of the venus project into their criticisms. Frankly most of you must have been to busy thinking up problems during the film to listen to what it actually is. Saying things like human nature will never change is like 100 years ago saying women will always be our slaves. You forget how small you and your perspective are in the grand scope of history, things change history only repeats itself when we continue to live in a hierarchy you have never seen anything else and you certainly have never seen the Venus project in action. Try educating yourself and drop the ego of needing to be right about something the wise old/young pessimist is so cliche..
November 5, 2009 at 5:40 PM

Anonymous said...
Jaque Fresco said himself " there are problems with the plan but its better then what we have now". Take the Nationalist Socialist movemant aka Nazi party. Take away the immoral and evil racial views of this philosopy and are left with several beneficial ideas which are being practiced by some nations today . If you read the 25 point thesis of the National Socialist movement you will see it contains basic left wing and right wing principals. Im not advocating the Nazi agenda Im just using them as an analogy. sure there are problems with the Venus Project but we are all indoctrinated into our current beliefs that make this utopia unrealistic.
Jaque Fresos designs are his own vision of the future and not written in stone. He makes a good and painfully logical point that resources based economy would be better then the monetary system. The more people that are freed up from mundain tasks will lead to an acceleration of ideas and technology, education, medicine, phychiatry. For more imformation on this last sentence go read ' Guns, germs. and steel; the fate of humanities' by Jared Diamond. He is another groundbreaking free thinker ahead of his time like Jaque Fresco.
November 10, 2009 at 1:41 PM

Wodahs35 said...
Please stop addressing The Venus Project as an utopian society. It has nothing to do with an utopia, and if you would just take the time to educate yourself about Zeitgeist and The Venus Project you would realize this yourself just as I have. Please watch "Zeitgeist" and "Zeitgeist Addendum" and watch the multiple interviews with Jacque Fresco and Peter Joseph. If you watch and read about them and still think The Venus Project is an outrageous idea then please email me. I would love to discuss this with anyone!
November 13, 2009 at 11:10 PM

I Envy Jesus Christ said...
We all have the genes of men and women who fought for human rights for thousands of years. I myself have genes from william wallace. It might be what brings the fight out in me.....the rebel. I just look at men like him, men like george washington. Men who had a better idea of a better life, because they wouldnt stand for the life that was chosen for them. Men who lost most of their battles, but ultimately won the war because they endured the hardships, and they endured struggles that should be wished on no man, but they did it for not themselves but for a greater cause. They endured through everything for the better of their fellow man. But they did not do it alone for no one man can take on a nation, but it was others who stood up and finally said enough is enough. If you are from other countries of other heritages, with other stories of brave men your people speak of, that finally spoke out and changed old policies....Think of them instead....Everyone has great people to look up to. Our power is in our numbers. As humans we have overcome many obstacles through life, why are we letting a higher power run our later generations. Man was proven to be born out of the mud, but if you dont believe that you must admit the fact that man, when he was born or created, was created or born free. Since then.....It seems we've been fighting to get that freedom back. Im no savior, profit, nor am I a genius. I dont have all the answers to all our problems, but that is why it isnt just about me because we are only as smart as those that are around us, so why not try to teach everyone, but not just of something new, but something they have already known their whole life, for one can search their entire life for the meaning of life, but what they dont know is that it is inside of them. The answer to all the problems of the world are inside of us. As Kennedy once said, another president I love, all our problems are man made, therefore they are problems that can be fixed by man. I would like to believe that us as a people have at least come to a point in evolution that we can understand that it is time to be out with the old and in with the new. Im not the smartest man in the world which most of you can probably tell by my misspelled words in this, but I know one thing, I am life smart. I also try to be as book smart as possible as well though because just as science can teach us so much about the future, so can history and the past. We can learn from the accomplishments and failures of our ancestors. We can make logical decisions, understand math and build buildings. We can advance our technologies and evolve our way of thinking and living, unlike any other species, we are the only ones who hold that power. We hold the power as people to control the outcome of our species. The only way there is going to be a change of things though is if we all stop hiding in the false security of our homes. If we stop hiding behind excuse instead of acting....just accepting things for the way that they are instead of they way things could be. Not should be, but could be because no one man has the right answers for everyone, One cant plan or build the perfect world, but we should thrive to make it a better world, that should be our goal, not fame and fortune. Humanity should be the ultimate goal. I dont want to be a martyr or some sort of leader. I respect george washington for when the colonists asked him to be king he refused and said that the new nation shall not be ran and dictated by one man, but the decisions of the nation should be decided by the nation.
February 20, 2010 at 2:13 AM

I Envy Jesus Christ said...
I just want anyone and everyone who reads this to not bash my ideas or my feelings on the way things are, not because of personal insult, but just to open your mind and instead of wasting your time and energy on focusing on what you believe is the wrong things I say and instead, open your mind just a little bit, and just comment on how you really feel how things are. Present new ideas, your dreams. Share your life knowledge, we can all benefit trust me, but make sure your words are instead of ignorant and closed minded, have them be influential and inspirational. Every uprising has some sort of beginning just like every story. Every new beginning starts out with few though. But it is those brave few, the ones who faced many for the good of man kind, they are the ones to be appreciated. A coward dies many deaths, where the courageous die but one. Courage, courage is inside all of us if we just dig deep enough. I tell everyone I meet, anyone can be a marine, you just have to want to be and want it bad enough. I dont follow the venus project too much nor alex jones on that other thing you guys were talking about. Ive seen the movies and stuff but I think that if they want a real movement with everything then they are doing it all wrong way and they need a new face ahead of it all. No man or woman needs a leader, but everyone needs a guide every once in a while.....we're only human. As much liberty and free choice we have, all of us need guidance sometimes, but not the type that has been in placed for us. I dont want to be a leader of a movement, but I would love of help organize and help guide one for the greater good of man, but a movement cannot be started by one man. Their are so many facts and reasons I can reflect on that are examples of why their needs to be a change, but I dont feel I have to. Every human can just ask themselves what the right thing to do is and the answer lies within them. Its not about one government or one economy, but the rights as humans that you are entitled to. Do you ever sit back and think about what the four essential means for any living organism to survive is. Food, air, water, and shelter. Things that you should be entitled to as a species, but yet three out of four you have to work your whole life to obtain. One of then for the average person taking at least thirty years of their life to pay off. Nature provides all of these things for us but yet we put the power of distribution in the hands of others. We have to work our whole entire young lifetime to obtain these things. Me, the zeitgeist stuff and all that aside, I would love to be the guide, the organizer of the movement, the new movement by the people and for the people. I dont want to be a leader, just a guide and organizer, but the answer behind all of our problems are behind all of you. So many of you wrote great comments on here, even the negatives ones brought great points, but at least we're talking and agreeing that shit is fucked up. The answer is behind you though, I can preach and guide all I want, like the old saying, you can lead a horse to water but cant make them drink. Its easy to talk about all our problems, but actually doing something is the difficult part.
February 20, 2010 at 2:14 AM

I Envy Jesus Christ said...
There are two types of people in the world, talkers and doers. The problem is there are too many talkers and not enough doers. It is time to do. If you enjoyed what I wrote here, If my words did not fall upon deaf ears. If my words actually touched you deep enough to at least knick a piece of your soul, pass this on to everyone you know. Regardless of who they are and their views. Pass on these words, if you only got one good piece of advice or one good piece of knowledge from this, spread it on to others. Our power is behind our numbers, teach the world, tell anyone wherever they may be. I would love to begin a movement, but I ponder if their will be enough doers to accomplish true freedom. Will this cause be all for not even though it is the true cause of all humanity, of all living things. We have run out of new lands to explore here on earth, there is no new world here to conquer or to start a better life, this is the world as we know it now. This is what we got. It is up to us to make it better for our children. I would love to quote we few we happy few by william shakespeare, but I dont know all the words, but I know what I took from it. What I took is this, Those of us who chose to fight, choose to join together shall know forever that we will never hold our manhoods cheap. That we went against the famine and the crown at all costs ensuring the good of man, the good of our children, not a few men. For such a change to come, it will take the devotion of everyone, but we cant use the excuse that people wont change, we have been changing constantly since we've been here. Such devotion that william wallace, george washington and others such as these, is the devotion I want to give to this cause but if I am the only one doing,than it is all for not, the world mainly relies on you. To give my life for the greater good of man would be to me the greatest honor of all, but I refuse to give my passion and devotion to such governments and policies that exist. I may not have been born on that side, but I was born on this side. I love that I was though because I know that us on this side hold the true power, not the other side that thinks they do. Whether we achieve that is up to you and me. Be as passionate towards life as you are about other things in your life. Get involved and hold yourself accountable. Look at all the responses and ideas in this blog, one little blog on the entire internet. Get the word out share your knowledge. Support project mayhem. Lets all throughout the nation just not show up to work for 3 weeks. What do you think would happen. We would flex our power and remind them that we are their strength. It lies within us. I cant help but wonder, why in a country that is so free, has complete dictatorship as soon as you walk into work. Most of our prime life is spent there as well. I think someone said already in here, dont pay your taxes, if everyone did that, they would have no power to do anything. What to do next, after we render the government powerless, well that is what we all need to be discussing now. Im tired of reading these sites and seeing everyone bitching about everything, god damn it, get up, lets charge, lets take back the republic, have the people take back the government. Stop Fucking talking about shit, and lets do something. Let us rally together in bars and taverns, let us meet everywhere and anywhere and plan for the great change. We can talk on here all we want but nothing will change until we do something about it. Lets do it, let us be known as the generation who took everything back. The generation that rose up and said we will not go quietly into the night. Let them remember us as the generation that helped shape a nation, that helped shape a world into a better place.
February 20, 2010 at 2:17 AM

I Envy Jesus Christ said...
Rome was not built in a day, just like people wont change over night. My friends, there are dark days ahead of us, will you endure the hardships and if so will you be doing it for what is truly right? That is a question you must ask yourself. Am I on the right side? For some reason, religions interpret this a lot, but there is a constant struggle in life between good verses evil, what side will you choose, that is all it comes down to, good verses evil. False rights over human rights. Talk to everyone you see and everyone you meet about this. Tell them, teach them, share your knowledge with them, learn from them, tell them about this crazy comment that I just wrote, regardless of their opinion on it, it can only make them know a little bit more. Im not going to sign off here with my name just know that you already know me. You all know exactly who I am. Im your neighbor, your best friend. your teacher at school. Im the guy that takes your burger order and your financial adviser. You know me quite well in fact, Im your oldest friend and Im the new person that your getting ready to meet. Just know that I am all over the place and trust me I feel you just like many many others do. When you see me though, you will know for sure it is me, just open your mind and think about it. Let us take it all back.
February 20, 2010 at 2:17 AM

Charles said...
I really feel anyone who considers this far fetched to be part of the problem. These ideas are just stepping stones for advancement. Tell me why we can't live in a world without war? We got to this point somehow, I'm sure we can get out of it. Complacency is what keeps us under the thumb of religion, government and banks. Society as a whole has decided this is how it is. What people forget to realize is thats how everyone thought 200 years ago, 500 years ago and so forth. Look where we are now. It's once again time to change and I feel our race has advanced far enough that we can shed the negativity and begin to see that we are all in this together. Society has overlooked how fake all this is, (politics, religion, government). These institutions were created out of thin air and designed to give you purpose. When your purpose is the same as any other animal on this earth. What that purpose is? I don't know. I do know what it isn't though. We have all the tools necessary to take care of this earth and each other. The human race is so lucky to be who we are and we waste it by having these institutions. These institutions have created social classes which in turn creates a negative form of individuality. Why are you better than the next guy? Because you're a christian? Because you're a politician? Because you have money?? What makes you worse than the next guy? Because you're on food stamps? Because you're unemployed? Because you don't have health insurance?? These forms of negative individuality is what keeps mankind from achieving the greatest things we can achieve at this level of our advancement. The only thing wrong with the aspirations of a utopian society is that getting everyone involved is an immense task. Of course many hands make light work. Don't lose faith in yourself or the man, woman, or child next to you. Look where popular belief has gotten us. Why can't we change the popular belief? I do not envy those who feel this is impossible. Get off your horse and walk on ground level with those that want to be equal. --- crtrufant@gmail.com
March 3, 2010 at 9:25 AM

SF Girl said...
Thank you, Charles. Let's go there... :)
March 3, 2010 at 10:09 AM

metalbabe_420 said...
So why is it that people cannot even fathem such a society? where we (the human race) are capable of sustaining our resources, and using them to create true equality amongst individuals. Equality in education, medical care, housing, and availability of all resources.

Perhaps it is that these people cannot see that the past and present sociatal structure and underlying values are WRONG! Our economy is based on a ever failing monetary system. Our corporations are what controls ALL the technology that is allowed to be mass produced, the prices of your products, and even how much is produced. Our economy is based on scarcity. NOTHING IS CURRENTLY WORKING!!

So why can some people not wrap your closed off minds around this concept. Perhaps not all the futuristic style buildings, but the concepts are what we need to become a truly eco-concious, global civilization...
March 6, 2010 at 8:21 PM

SF Girl said...
Yes, metalbabe... Let's go there... by all means, let's look at alternatives, let's discuss alternative models, what they are, how they can be implemented, what is working now in various parts of the world...because we ARE looking... In April I will be participating in a conference in Zurich of the Life and Mind Institute on Altruism and Compassion in Economic Systems. We will be discussing that very challenge...
March 6, 2010 at 8:55 PM

Anonymous said...
Catana - Get a horse?
There will be no tomorrow without dreams. It's silly to quibble about vision if you only look to yesterday.
March 7, 2010 at 9:33 AM

SF Girl said...
That last post was eloquent and succinct.

If you want to vote on this issue go to PIKK here: http://www.pikk.com/stories/my_pikk
March 7, 2010 at 10:56 AM

Charles said...
Catana and anonymous, unfortunately you're both right and wrong. -- Catana, you're attitude is why we haven't reached that point yet. -- Anonymous, you must look to the past to create a better future. Recognizing what went wrong is just as important as recognizing what has gone right.
March 9, 2010 at 8:26 AM

Anonymous said...
Wonder why my previous posts were erased from existence? There were no profanities used. Is the moderator a new convert or did the Zeitgeist members whine and complain to have them removed?
March 16, 2010 at 12:58 AM

SF Girl said...
Dear Anonymous,

I wrote my post objectively, hoping to generate lively and healthy discussion. I am delighted to see that this is happening here.

I believe I only removed one post from this forum, based on its highly derogatory, racist and prejudiced comments about a particular culture and race. While I invite good debate and healthy argument, I will not sully this blog with destructive commentary.


Anonymous, I'm going to assume from your present comment that you would not write the kind of comment that I removed and suggest that perhaps your comment was lost in cyberspace. I can only invite you to include it again.

Best Wishes,
Nina Munteanu
March 16, 2010 at 7:29 AM

Anonymous said...
Pretty architecture. Fanciful ideas. Utter impossibility to achieve using the inventors' philosophy. Socialism/Marxism doesn't work in the long run...never has & never will.

A quick note to "Jesus Christ": By the time anybody got through even a couple of paragraphs of that near incomprehensible drivel you pinned my Lord & Saviors' name to, the reading audience would be knocked out unconcious- A little pithiness, Please!
March 24, 2010 at 2:51 PM

Anonymous said...
The project looks promising. Mainly because promises have not been kept today, a year ago, or 5 years ago. There are issues today which ANYONE can agree are not fully being attended to. I don't want to see pessimistic views. Solutions through scientific observation and realization have advanced society again and again through-out history...do the research. This is a possibility constructed through the scientific process and it does us good to at least entertain the idea. So Mr. Fresco...let's see more!
April 12, 2010 at 12:17 AM

Lothar Funk said...
Nope, sorry I'm not buying any of of it..this is a perfect trap to keep a sequential order over earth...be like us, think like us, no room for the individual-self to grow.
May 3, 2010 at 9:18 PM
Anonymous said...
Jacque Fresco is a man who has hands on experience in many different fields for 94 years now and has much to show for his work. You dare criticize this man with this useless post and your meaningless words..
and for what might i ask?
Do you propose an alternative?
i would love to hear that..
May 7, 2010 at 6:58 PM

SF Girl said...
"You dare criticize this man with this useless post and your meaningless words." ... Hmmm, strong words from an "Anonymous" ID... There is a place on this blog for people to identify themselves (don't be shy, Anonymous).

I started this discussion to examine this project critically (I am a scientist, after all...LOL!). The moment critical scrutiny and examination are no longer acceptable, we are truly lost and our freedom gone.

What we get from this is also obvious: we get the truth, OUR truth--not just someone else's truth. And this is something I am certain Jacgue Fresco would both sanction and invite, as anyone with integrity would.

True freedom is defined by the right to question and the right to defend. Let's not throw that away or we invite something far far worse than what we presently have.

As for alternatives, yes there are many; no paradigm or model is "perfect" because of change and evolution. Above all else, it is important to maintain an open mind to possibilities and work TOGETHER with respect and without animosity.
May 8, 2010 at 8:43 AM

Anonymous said...
I noticed that one of the earlier pro-venus/zeigeist comments advocated the possible "zapping" of an undesirable gene, when asked about mental illness in their new society.

I wonder how mental illness will be defined in this new society, who will make such decisions and whether there might be any other udesirable genes that need to be "zapped"?

The pursuit of technology is a wonderful thing, but anyone actually involved in its development knows that ultimately, there is a human controller. Who will write the rules or 'programs' for such life controlling technology and how will this be any better than those who write the rules for the monetary system which currently controls us? After all, all the technology you have now, developed since the industrial revolution, was developed under the existing system wasn't it?

This kind of concept, while noble in goal, is purely predicated on humanity's inherent will to do unselfish good in the absence of monetary pressure to do the opposite. Either you believe this or you don't.

Sounds like faith to me.... so much for it becoming 'irrelevant' :)
May 11, 2010 at 6:27 PM

Mirshalak said...
I discovered this post, as a result of Googling to try and find more information about the Venus Project from both sides.

I admit that the cultic nature of the responses from some of the VP supporters here, are deeply disturbing.

I'm wanting to investigate something potentially positive, but a cult is the last thing I want.
May 27, 2010 at 2:09 AM

Anti_Federalist32 said...
I think an important thing to consider behind all of this discussion is motivation. They say that the so-called "free market system" works because it helps motivate others by providing profit oriented incentives to individuals, corporations, governments, etc. This profit driven motivation is what has greatly aided in the rapid advancement of industrial society over the last hundred years. Whether you want to argue the moral implications this has had is another debate. But to ignore where this system has gotten us, and simply label it as broken, is to be rather disingenuous I think.

At the same time, to argue that a new system of society won't work without the bedrock of a 'free market system' - money, is to be ignorant to the true motivating factors of human behavior. Individuals will be more productive and efficient when working with 'intrinsic motivation' i.e., motivation while doing something that will inherently help others, or add to society as a whole; rather than 'extrinsic' motivational factors like money. Daniel H. Pink wrote an enlightening book on the subject of these motivations called "Drive".

In light of this book and many others relating to it, I think it is entirely possible for the societal structure suggested by the "Venus Project" to function properly. I will agree that perfection is far from what it will be, but like Fresco said himself; "...[a] resource based global economy is not perfect. Its just a lot better than what we have. We can never achieve perfection."

History will tell who wins this argument. I believe it was Mark Twain who said;
"In the beginning a patriot is a scarce man, hated and feared and scorned. But in time when his cause succeeds, the timid join him, because then it costs nothing to be patriot."
June 4, 2010 at 10:46 AM
The Stars in Her Symphony said...
I happen to think it is an amazing concept actually. The pages you come across as you first graze the site are meant to capture your attention and be fantastical. They are meant to lure and fascinate. If you are fascinated and drawn to them, and then the idea, perhaps you will download the zeitgeist movies at zeitgeist . com and watch them. Perhaps the youth will be amazed and they will research and read. This is not an impossible concept. Make no mistake, the first images are not for scientific magnifying glasses, nothing is perfect, but at least it is an idea, a beginning, a place to start and something to dream about. I don't see anyone else coming up with a better future plan. I think that the general scope and initial pictures should not be judged so harshly because the facts and the 'how to' are out there for you to watch, read and educate yourself with. One should not make an uneducated judgment about the Venus Project.
June 4, 2010 at 7:32 PM

Anonymous said...
I love the idea of it all, will it ever come true? Maybe when my son is an adult.
It would be better living for all of the human race. I know I am tired of all the BS politics in our world. Ever since man has become civilized its been the same song and dance.
The rich use the hard work of other men/women to fill there pockets.
Why cant humans break this vicious cycle? I am not for or share the same ideas as the Venus project. But some of the ideas are dead on about economy and the monetary system.
Really should we all take the red pill here.
The Oil Companies have destroyed the Florida coast and really do they give a crap...NO its money in there pockets when you fill up your car.
We as all humans need to wake up and stop letting these people dictate our lives or we wont have a future.
June 25, 2010 at 4:13 AM

Sharon said...
From what I have been able to read about this proposal for a new way of living on Earth, I may have begun to till the soil for the seeds of a Quasi-Zeitgeist/ Venus Project in a deeply rural community in South Africa.

Any pilgrims and critics should first Google: Hinterland Learners' Resource Network, and then send me a note.

Could a little child shall lead us?
Namaste
Sharon
July 4, 2010 at 7:41 PM

Anonymous said...
I found the proposal to be the best solution I have seen to date for resolving the current economic and social problem worldwide. Let's face the scientific facts/data on the changing environment; not taking the exploding world population into account, if all of China follows the USA lifestyle then the future of the Earth's atmosphere and environment will be very bleak.

However, I think this proposal is too ahead of its time and Jacques Fresco knows it. He admitted that a popular adaptation of the project will only comes when reality necessitates a drastic change in society.

My reasoning is based on the Spiral Dynamics (SD) theory of psychology. In terms of human behavior, or level of consciousness as described by the SD model by Dr. Clare Graves and simplified by Don Beck and Christopher Cowan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_Dynamics), this solution sounds like a solution from the highest level of consciousness of our time--the Holistic or Turqoise or 8th level. Here is a oversimplified summary of the SD levels of consciousness:

Tier-1 -- the SURVIVALIST system
1. the Reactive/Survival level -- Caveman period
2. the Tribalistic/Kinship level -- Tribal period
3. the Egocentric/Self-Identification level -- Feudal period
4. the Absolutistic level -- Medieval (religious institution) and Nationalistic period.
5. the Achieveristic/Materialist level -- Modern Man (the profiteers), Renaissance period
6. the Communitarian level -- Post-modern Man era

Tier-2 -- the BEING system
7. the Systemic level
8. the Holistic level

The following youtube video clip gives an excellent introduction to the first 7 levels of consciousness http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSvKByYOPdo

You can guess right way that most of humanity (the hump of the Bell curve) is still at the Materialistic Level, with more and more people are beginning to realize that the Earth will not be able to sustain our current lifestyle for very long and thus are evolving to level 6. That's why I am doubting that the Resource-based system as proposed in the Venus Project could be realized, at least for now. I think it would work when our compounding problems get out of hands and force human to grow/evolve to the level above the Survivalist tier and move on to BEING tier.

Or we could help ourselves and our friends to evolve to level 7 and beyond so that we can have a smooth transition from the monetary-based society to a new society of highly evolved beings without a catalytic catasthrophe. How? By simply spend more time by yourself to contemplate and question every dogma that you've accepted as self-evident truth and every emotion that arises from those beliefs including self-denial.
July 10, 2010 at 1:04 AM

Anonymous said...
I found the proposal to be the best solution I have seen to date for resolving the current economic and social problem worldwide. Let's face the scientific facts/data on the changing environment; not taking the exploding world population into account, if all of China follows the USA lifestyle then the future of the Earth's atmosphere and environment will be very bleak.

However, I think this proposal is too ahead of its time and Jacques Fresco knows it. He admitted that a popular adaptation of the project will only comes when reality necessitates a drastic change in society.

My reasoning is based on the Spiral Dynamics (SD) theory of psychology. In terms of human behavior, or level of consciousness as described by the SD model by Dr. Clare Graves and simplified by Don Beck and Christopher Cowan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_Dynamics), this solution sounds like a solution from the highest level of consciousness of our time--the Holistic or Turqoise or 8th level. Here is a oversimplified summary of the SD levels of consciousness:

Tier-1 -- the SURVIVALIST system
1. the Reactive/Survival level -- Caveman period
2. the Tribalistic/Kinship level -- Tribal period
3. the Egocentric/Self-Identification level -- Feudal period
4. the Absolutistic level -- Medieval (religious institution) and Nationalistic period.
5. the Achieveristic/Materialist level -- Modern Man (the profiteers), Renaissance period
6. the Communitarian level -- Post-modern Man era

Tier-2 -- the BEING system
7. the Systemic level
8. the Holistic level

The following youtube video clip gives an excellent introduction to the first 7 levels of consciousness http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSvKByYOPdo

You can guess right way that most of humanity (the hump of the Bell curve) is still at the Materialistic Level, with more and more people are beginning to realize that the Earth will not be able to sustain our current lifestyle for very long and thus are evolving to level 6. That's why I am doubting that the Resource-based system as proposed in the Venus Project could be realized, at least for now. I think it would work when our compounding problems get out of hands and force human to grow/evolve to the level above the Survivalist tier and move on to BEING tier.

Or we could help ourselves and our friends to evolve to level 7 and beyond so that we can have a smooth transition from the monetary-based society to a new society of highly evolved beings without a catalytic catasthrophe.
July 10, 2010 at 1:04 AM

Anonymous said...
I found the proposal to be the best solution I have seen to date for resolving the current economic and social problem worldwide. However, I think this proposal is too ahead of its time and Jacques Fresco knows it. He admitted that a popular adaptation of the project will only comes when reality necessitates a drastic change in society.

My reasoning is based on the Spiral Dynamics (SD) theory of psychology. In terms of human behavior, or level of consciousness as described by the SD model by Dr. Clare Graves and simplified by Don Beck and Christopher Cowan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_Dynamics), this solution sounds like a solution from the highest level of consciousness of our time--the Holistic or Turqoise or 8th level. Here is a oversimplified summary of the SD levels of consciousness:

Tier-1 -- the SURVIVALIST system
1. the Reactive/Survival level -- Caveman period
2. the Tribalistic/Kinship level -- Tribal period
3. the Egocentric/Self-Identification level -- Feudal period
4. the Absolutistic level -- Medieval (religious institution) and Nationalistic period.
5. the Achieveristic/Materialist level -- Modern Man (the profiteers), Renaissance period
6. the Communitarian level -- Post-modern Man era

Tier-2 -- the BEING system
7. the Systemic level
8. the Holistic level

The following youtube video clip gives an excellent introduction to the first 7 levels of consciousness http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSvKByYOPdo

You can guess right way that most of humanity (the hump of the Bell curve) is still at the Materialistic Level, with more and more people are beginning to realize that the Earth will not be able to sustain our current lifestyle for very long and thus are evolving to level 6. That's why I am doubting that the Resource-based system as proposed in the Venus Project could be realized, at least for now. I think it would work when our compounding problems get out of hands and force human to grow/evolve to the level above the Survivalist tier and move on to BEING tier.

Or we could help ourselves and our friends to evolve to level 7 and beyond so that we can have a smooth transition from the monetary-based society to a new society of highly evolved beings without a catalytic catasthrophe. How? By simply spend more time by yourself to contemplate and question every dogma that you've accepted as self-evident truth and every emotion that arises from those beliefs including self-denial.
July 10, 2010 at 1:06 AM

SF Girl said...
Thank you, Sharon, for your comment. Sounds intriguing...

And thank you, Anonymous, for the information on Spiral Dynamics psychological model of human behavior and conciousness. This is very fascinating and relevant to this argument. I urge readers to look into this.
July 10, 2010 at 9:32 AM

david kong said...
I believe that his dream or vision for humanity is breath taking and the best way for our human race to take steps into becoming a type 1 civilization...but the sad truth is the illunamati wouldn't allow it to happen....for hundreds and thousands of years the bloodline of these alien invaders are already reaching their goal of a new world order...it would be possible but that will mean that everyone would have to spread out the word of this corrupted government and those above them and ruin their plans for a new world order and killing billions of people...I love his ideas but its 666 era has already begun...I hope that we would be able to live like that one day....but all we can do now is have a little faith and hope for the new world order to be destoryed...u say I'm crazy...no I'm just praying...that everything will be ok....god bless and godspeed! Myspace.com/davidkong
July 13, 2010 at 10:07 PM

Chris said...
Of course it is possible. If people were free to do what they wanted, they would. If people were driven by love instead of need of money society would be a better place.

I live in Japan were we still use money, we are still obviously on the monetary system. But the environment here fosters a different type of people. There are no guns, so murder is rather non-existent. People in general do not steal and you can leave your bag in a restaurant with cash in it and people will return it to you.

It about faith and values.

If people believe this can work, it can. If people are brought up to behave a certain way they will.

No one said that we could just move from our current cities and into these and everything would be perfect. There would obviously be a generation of transition.

But I for one refuse to be a slave to the monetary system any longer. the problem is everyone has to pull a Rosa Parks and quit participating in the illusion that money is going to get you anywhere because it is not. Money did not get us to the moon, the technology did.
So for compensation factors, if people have free will they will create projects to further the advancement of society, they just want have to wonder how to pay for it any longer freeing them of the slavery of debt.

But whether you like it or not Globalization is coming.

It is either coming in a Global monetary system with a One world Government unification where we are forever enslaved by these banks and corporations or we can all work together to stop that from happening and reclaim or freedom.

Money is not necessary. The only reason you think that is because that is all you know. Open you mind and think about it. If you learned how to farm could you? If a machine did it for you for nothing would you not have enough time to work on something else to benefit yourself and others?

Most of the miseries of the world are caused by money and wars and it is time for it to end.

This is the end of times and time for change. It is noted in almost every religion also, so think about where you want it to go.
August 12, 2010 at 2:30 AM

Chris said...
Also this project is aimed at the level 6, the communitarian era.
August 12, 2010 at 2:33 AM

SF Girl said...
Thank you for your thoughtful comments, David and Chris... We certainly need change ... change will occur with or without our input and a positive mind is one critical criterion. As Ghandi said, "You must be the change you wish to see in the world..."
August 12, 2010 at 5:01 AM

inthevisible said...
www.circularcities.com
August 30, 2010 at 4:26 PM

Anonymous said...
Wishful thinking impossible to realize PROJECT (except for the super rich who can afford a dream). I prefer the more realistic possibility of the Vilaj Vilaj project for haiti or the Architecture of Moshe Safdie in his habitat 67 project.
September 1, 2010 at 4:52 PM

SF Girl said...
Thanks for sharing these projects with us. They sound worthwhile. We realize our future in many ways...
September 1, 2010 at 6:04 PM

SF Girl said...
Case left this comment, which I accidentally deleted. Here it is:

If the futuristic concepts were made possible, I'm sure they would have the potential to revolutionize the way we build homes. Unfortunately, the whole "new society" thing is far fetched and assumes people will want to work everyday for free because...the advancement of society and technology is on their top list of priorities.

Thanks for your comment, Case!
September 7, 2010 at 9:15 PM

Anonymous said...
Its funny how people quickly forget that most ideas get laughed at, mocked, ridiculed, rioted, fire-bombed, burned, etc...before they are realized...hmmm...let me think...

airplane
car
telephone
computer
train
bagel sandwich
peanut butter and jelly
twitter...(didn't see that coming)
heck...even you...before you parents saw to it...

I am not saying the venus project is the greatest thing...but then again I am not so sure it isn't...
November 10, 2010 at 10:27 PM

Dimitri said...
Even if any part of the Venus Project is ever realized, so what?
Paris was at one point redesigned to be a "stunning" circular city. So what? What to they have now? Automobile congestion, overcrowding, rudeness and McDonald's partout.
The traveling Venus Project presentation is akin to a one trick pony show. People will come and listen as long as there is some sort of "theater" involved. You can try it yourself on any big city street corner.
The frequent mention of Aldous Huxley in the commentaries is worrisome. After all much of his message was about population control and manipulation, i.e. eugenics. It echoed all that the Fabian Society, of which he was a shining star, saw as a necessary agenda for the world.
The Venus Project has that certain Fabian Society odor about it: you're either with us or we are against you. And we'll win because we're so much smarter and "idealistic".
It all smells pretty mad, destructive and difficult to trust.
November 12, 2010 at 7:44 AM

Alex said...
Hello all and SF Girl, you posted this way long ago. I didn't read almost everything but I had this to say,
"Thanks, Ivan and others... interesting thoughts. Especially about the whole money part. What you're talking about is essentially about altruistic behavior. That's the core of this whole argument and why some consider it untenable shlock and others dream of its attainment. It comes down to our own philosophy and whether our values come from the heart or from superficial things. And whether the glass is half full or half empty..."

People's values are shaped by their environment way more than they are by there genes, so the story goes. So most people will not change their beliefs or behaviors due to logic, reasoning or for the sake of helping humanity and our home, the earth. From what I have read, change occurs in mass when society is stricken with biosocial pressures that trigger a change. For example, a community of baboons or monkey (idk) were known to be violent and aggressive, so one day all the alpha, aggressive, male monkeys ate something that killed them and the only male monkeys that were left were passive and non aggressive. Almost instantly, the entire group of monkeys changed their behaviors because of the old social custom of aggression was gone. Now they live more peacefully.


Another example, is that the US feared being conquered by the axis of evil and so they forced themselves to do the opposite of what the Venus Project advocates, create a Nuke or WMD.

Once the shit hits the fan in this monetary world and people can't even feed their families, we will be here to tell people about the possibility of a future where society is based around abundance, sustainability and then change will occur.

So bio-social pressures that make people decide to create nukes can also make people decide to make The Venus Project a reality.
November 17, 2010 at 6:50 PM

SF Girl said...
Alex,

I agree with your summary that it is a matter of perspective: "What you're talking about is essentially about altruistic behavior. That's the core of this whole argument and why some consider it untenable shlock and others dream of its attainment. It comes down to our own philosophy and whether our values come from the heart or from superficial things. And whether the glass is half full or half empty..."

It bears repeating and lies at the heart of social change. Which way do we move and enact change? In fear? Or in hope? The direction and consequence will be very different. It is, in some ways that simple.
November 17, 2010 at 7:02 PM

Anonymous said...
zeitgeist..movie
November 20, 2010 at 8:55 PM

kouby said...
Sooo... I take it all the sceptics are happy with poverty, famine, war, bankers controlling politics, corporations being more powerful than countrys, the current economic system?...
I get the venus project is a leap of faith when you are tied to the current system.
But how on earth do YOU think we can tackle all these problems if not only by a reconstruction of today's society on a more morally sound basis?
Maybe giving actual feedback and factual argumentation would be more useful than just bashing on the principle that "it looks too good".

ps: wikipedia says that guys like the owner of Blackwater are basically good guys... Maybe it's not such a great source for information?
November 29, 2010 at 11:10 AM

ICYNDICEY said...
ANYTHING is possible! I love how people get on here and laugh and ridicule new concepts. Especially concepts that would benefit the entire world. People, animals, the ecosystem. What is so strange about this? Nothing! If you were a person 150 years ago walking around and someone told you that people in 60 years will be driving vehicles that will get them around town in no time, and in 100 years there will big planes that will be able to fly people all around the world to exotic places, and in 150 years there will be machines that people will have in their homes and they'll be able to communicate with anyone in the world in a split second. If they told you this you'd look at them like they were ready for a straight jacket. You my friends are THOSE PEOPLE right here and now whether you like it or not. You are EXACTLY like the closed minded people of the past who never thought in a million years these things would be possible. Hell I have aunts who still can't believe email or cellphones exist. They say...never in my wildest dreams when I was a little girl did I think one day I'd reach into my purse and answer a phone. And a phone that I could go on the internet and receive email? NEVER EVER EVER! So when people present new concepts and ideas rather than laughing at them just try and open your mind. Because if people hadn't...you wouldn't have your iphone today. But in a 100 years they'll be laughing at the iphone. They'll be all...eww, how primitive LOL!
December 27, 2010 at 4:39 AM

Anonymous said...
Zeitgeist is dangerous, new kind of dark world domination.
Utterly stupid and separatist.
One thing coming from demented minds, wolves dressed as lambs.
And by the way,
Eewww the cities up there are so ugly.they are horrid, dont have anything to do with the environment around, look like spacheships or alien invasion.
The world seriously need be aware of resourses, but NOT in the ways they want,
Zeitgeist is the most utterly opressive thing ive seen in late years.
They will not let you love your land or have religion,they are calling you stupid, they offend your beliefs (whatever they are), your culture stupid,
and be aware if they ever come to power (wich i dont think they will fortunately)they will be expropriating you one day as in some kind of masked agressive comunism.
Beware of Zeitgeist, dont let they grow. Stop this madness!
December 30, 2010 at 5:15 PM

Anonymous said...
Zeitgeist is dangerous, new kind of dark world domination.
Utterly stupid and separatist.
One thing coming from demented minds, wolves dressed as lambs.
And by the way,
Eewww the cities up there are so ugly.they are horrid, dont have anything to do with the environment around, look like spacheships or alien invasion.
The world seriously need be aware of resourses, but NOT in the ways they want,
Zeitgeist is the most utterly opressive thing ive seen in late years.
They will not let you love your land or have religion,they are calling you stupid, they offend your beliefs (whatever they are), your culture stupid,
and be aware if they ever come to power (wich i dont think they will fortunately)they will be expropriating you one day as in some kind of masked agressive comunism.
Beware of Zeitgeist, dont let they grow. Stop this madness!
December 30, 2010 at 5:17 PM

chadwika said...
Ugly 1960s retread. And white? Where is the color? Soleri was much more in tune with nature as was Frank Lloyd Wright. I like the idea of throwing your ideas out there, but the voice-over indicates this is the agenda: how it will be. No thanks. You can not go against nature, because when you do, that's part of nature too.
January 8, 2011 at 1:02 AM

Anonymous said...
This Venus project is a backwards step in evolution. Future sustainable living needs to be in harmony with the natural world. The Venus project separates man from nature in a high-density artificial environment that will cause humans to adopt unhealthy mental mindsets. Until man learns to live with nature these utopian high-tech models will waste man's time and energy.
January 8, 2011 at 6:17 PM

Lia said...
I think man already has adopted unhealthy mental mindsets due to our reliance on this monetary system. Honestly, as the author proposed, I think they just need a better copywriter.
January 12, 2011 at 10:53 AM

Jesse k said...
The human mind is always wanting more so the fact thqt we want this society not saying its a bad idea could only achieved if the entire race as one agreed to this wich in hein sight is not very likely the point is the rich will want to stay rich but the poor will likely enjoy this idea if an argument was presented to them basically the odds of such a society happening is slim to none unless a sort of catastrofic world appifany where to happen wic is again unlikely
January 14, 2011 at 1:31 AM

Peacefrog said...
For those who called the venus project "pure frivolity" or something to that nature, I say think what you want, but remember, some thought the world was once flat. Some thought the Wright Brothers were foolish to attempt to fly. Some would have thought a cordless phone was impossible. My point is, NOTHING is impossible. If you can imagine it in your mind it can be manufactured. After all, everything you see (besides nature), is just an extension of a human's thought. Stop the pessimistic, weak-minded thinking and we MAY advance one day.
January 16, 2011 at 7:31 PM

dagna said...
I read this blog and I just cant believe how pessimistic and bitter some people can be!
Open your minds!!
Thankfully there are people like PEACEFROG,ICYNDICEY ,KOUBY and others who are open minded and respect those with new concepts and ideas!!
January 24, 2011 at 7:26 AM

Anonymous said...
I've read several comments on this article, and noticed that alot who are against the venus project constantly talks about it as an utopian society...

Let me ask you this; where does it say it is a utopia??? I have never seen it...

In fact they've said the quite opposite several times...

All these negative views are all projected onto the venus project...
February 14, 2011 at 11:23 PM

InTheVisible said...
www.circularcities.com
February 25, 2011 at 12:51 PM

Concerned World Citizen said...
I have read the majority of the comments in the blog, both for and against the venus project concepts.

It is to be noted that many responders refered to the ideas as being those of one individual, namely the founder of the movement. This is not the case, yes he is the founder but the concepts ideas and plans are the work of many persons not just him. Perhaps they fear that this is a new form of eventual restrictive society. One fact that is often forgotten is that the founder of this movement is 89 years of age and will in all likelihood not see the fruits and concepts proposed implemented and working.

On another tack, I agree with the ideas and concepts fully in that the current economic model is definitely not working and non sustainable.

I have had personal experience of the fickle nature of his system in that i have gone from being a sucessfull and well paid professional to an unemployed, bankrupt and disabled individual over the period of three years. How is this possible, very simple indeed in that i suffered a stroke due to the stresses of the work, being made unemployed and worrying about how the bills were to be paid and also being constantly hounded for payments even though there was no way to pay these.

This last economic meltdown is also not the first as i have seen several over the last 20 years, each progressively worse. In Each case the governments bailed out the banks and industry to restore the economy. What this meant was that actually the tax payers funded the bail outs for those who had actually resulted in the crises in the first place.

So those of you who look to the governments for inspiration and guidance should actually look long and hard at the existing system.

We as a society are brainwashed into believing that we need to have that bigger house in the upmarket parts of town, filled with all those unecesssary objects marketed to us. Ask yourselves where does the marketing stem from. the answer is simple, the very institutions and organisations that make obscene profits from selling those items.

one example is if you take the financial institutions. They actively market and sell credit on the basis that it is your right to live beyond your means, and then when you cannot repay then (because you lost your job etc)what do they do. They take whatever you have have without any compassion or remorse.

They never will accept the responsibility for having sold finance and loans to people, that they are well aware, could never repay the amounts.

All in all the current system is breaking down faster and faster. The concepts and ideas proposed by the Venus project an Zeitgeist movement offer this planet a viable solution for the long term.

Granted these are not perfect, but what system is. Only a system that is based on managing the available resources, looking after all persons on an equal basis, is dynamic and can change as it identifies and learns from its mistakes can save this planet.

In closing i would like to make some observations about the state of our planet, It is polluted, has hundreds of millions of people that are living below the breadline, there are wars going on daily in every part of the planet, natural disasters are on the uprise probably due to our desecration of the planet, resources are dwindling with no serious efforts being made t o recycle or find alternatives.We should be seriously be considering how we can help repair the damage we as humans have caused and improve the lot of everybody.

This is the basic tenet of Zietgeist and the venus project. Instead of shooting the idea down flatly, rather read the literature, understand the concept and if you identify flaws try to help provide solutions to the problems that you see. In this way we all can contribute to a better future.

The most frightening part of all of the above is that we as a planet are heading for WW3 at an accelerated pace.

Thanks and regards to all.
February 27, 2011 at 4:23 AM

Alex M. said...
First of all, I'm impressed by your response to the Venus Project! Getting to my point, I am disappointed that you saw the Venus Project as simply an artists dream. Jacque Fresco, the brains behind it all, is an ENGINEER. He earned a P.H.D. in engineering! Check this out and see if this convinces you that this is not simply an "artists dream". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCH0BQ2nSMo

Also, have you considered what our monetary system is and where it's taking us? The idea of money itself is a pyramid scheme based on unlimited growth, which of course is not possible on a planet with finite resources. The Venus Project is not simply another form of government... it is the next righteous step of human evolution, the step to ensure our longterm survival as a species!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
March 3, 2011 at 10:02 PM

SF Girl said...
Alex, thanks for your comments and for posting these links. Very enlightening...and the second link, "Zeitgeist Moving Forward" (2011 release) is very worthwhile to watch for insightful commentary by researchers and respected scholars from around the world.

In fact, all 153 comments here have been both compelling, intelligent and enlightening. Thanks everyone for your thoughtful input. You've made this single post a great resource for thoughtful debate on the future of humankind...
March 4, 2011 at 9:16 AM

pseudonym said...
I am doing a presentation on home remedies at a zeitgeist festival and have been checking out their whacky views all week to see how i feel. The cult vibe is clear, mostly well meaning granola types, nothing really sinister, just a creepy way of disenfranchising the left with idealistic bafflegab at a time when it might actually be in a position to genuinely do something. interesting to see venus project is supported by david icke. with his green party sabotage history, he makes the perfect poster boy for a movement named after a scary sounding german word. i feel most sorry for anyone who feels they have to watch that film. i have seen enuff propaganda that i know better than to waste my eyeball time. i must say however that the venus project's jetsons-like imagery of future architecture are stunningly beautiful omni magazine monstrosities that look like they might actually exist in dubai or vegas. their mind may be focused on venus, but someone should tell their leader "your head is firmly focused in the deepest manner possible in uranus."
March 9, 2011 at 9:19 PM

Charles said...
^ So whats your solution?
March 10, 2011 at 7:30 AM

Sierra said...
this is a psuedo-utopian joke...a quasi-communistic fairytale...they want to abolish the family--well, the media and society are already doing a good job of that, mate, and look at the results. They sure make it look nice with all the fake drawings, though. I bet this crap is financed by the United Nations, just like the fake messiah "maitreya". Just another attempt at one-world government by the insider bastards.
March 18, 2011 at 12:14 PM

This quote is taken from space cadet central aka the ZM forum :
"Haitian Earthquake: Tragedy or Opportunity? - While the tragedy of this event cannot be overstated, it might paradoxically provide a unique opportunity for the Zeitgeist Movement and the Venus Project. Haiti has historically been a nation of great social and economic trouble. Haiti suffers from high inflation, limited infrastructure, and widespread unemployment. More than two-thirds of the nation's labor force do not have formal jobs, and law enforcement in Haiti is currently being supported by a UN peacekeeping mission. With an already struggling nation thrown into veritable chaos by this latest tragedy, there may be no better time for the Venus Project to come to the rescue of humanity."
[sarcasm]
Yet another beautiful moment on the ZM forum, where the selfless conversations of the members save the world. How these guys get off calling themselves a humanitarian movement is beyond belief !!!
What was it you did for the people there? oh thats right you discussed how you could insert your venus project on their island. Go ZM 'uber' humanitarians.
[end sarcasm]
anticultist said this on January 14, 2010 at 12:15 am | Reply

WHEN THE FUCK DID THE ZEITGEIST MOVEMENT CALL THEMSELVES HUMANITARIAN MOVEMENT, JUST TELL ME WHEN!!?!??!
you fucking piece of shit liar..
angryindividualwhowants_tokickpauljonesintheface@hotmail.com
94.253.143.120
zagreb croatia
who cares said this on June 1, 2010 at 10:11 am | Reply

Lunatic !!
You represent your cult so well. I am betting Peter Joseph Merola would love to know the people he has representing zeitgeist on the internet are psychotic losers.
anticultist said this on June 1, 2010 at 2:53 pm | Reply

"We have in the english forum, some users that are obviously government shills & agent provocateurs... Users with Remarks defending the status quo...Comparing the Venus project with communism...They are logged many hours, like in a job"
I remember this guy, he was a cool dude and he even unregistered on the forum, leaving TZM I'm assuming. People in the Zeitgeist Movement leave because conspiracy theories are talked about too much or they are not talked about enough. This video proves my point:

BranManFloMore said this on June 1, 2010 at 5:10 pm | Reply

He was very paranoid and I personally find that level of paranoia funny.
anticultist said this on June 1, 2010 at 5:15 pm | Reply

"I don't regard The zeitgeist Movement as an activist movement. Rather, it seems to me to be a very passive movement that is misled by doctrines that have a pleasant sound, but collapse on analysis. Among them is the idea that we should "stop supporting the system" and should not "fight it," that is seek to change and overcome it. That means that we should withdraw into passivity. Nothing could be more welcome to those with power. My feeling is that however sincere the leaders and participants may be, the movement is seriously misguided. It is not leading towards change, but is undermining it by encouraging passivity and withdrawal from engagement, and offering a false sense that some real alternative is being proposed, except in terms so abstract and divorced from reality as to be virtually meaningless." Noam Chomsky [2009]

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thezeitgeistmovement.com%2Fjoomla%2Findex.php%3Foption%3Dcom_kunena%26Itemid%3D99999%26func%3Dview%26catid%3D232%26id%3D211592%26limit%3D10%26limitstart%3D10%23211705&h=c5c47b00f2d8ae8da072a64b8c9431de

"I emailed Chomsky and asked if he had seen the Addendum film...obviously not expecting a reply. 30 minutes later I got this from him." [s.mussared,2008]

"I haven't seen it." [Chomsky, 2008]

"Hello again Professor,I was quite surprised not only to get a reply from you but to get it so aptly. You are the first person of influence I have emailed and have gotten a reply from. My name is ...[*steve lists personal details here] ...and now I am looking to study applied economics with an interest in sustainable development in the third world.The video I inquired about has been quite an influential film directed by a young man like myself named Peter Joseph. He is a private film editor living in New York. The film addresses many of the fundamental flaws in society today. Unfortunately for me I am not gifted with the vocabulary or mental capacity to intelligently summarize what is discussed in the film. It is 2 hours long and in my personal opinion was worth every minute of my time watching it.I am asking what will it take to spark your interest enough to watch the film and provide some constructive feedback and criticisms of what is discussed.Thank you greatly for your time"[s.mussared,2008]

"I'm sorry my response was so curt. Actually, I've heard a fair amount about the film, by people who found it impressive. And what they told me did not encourage me to spend the time watching it.I very rarely watch documentaries. Two hours is a considerable investment of scarce time. Documentaries have considerable value, no doubt, and I'm glad that people make them. But by their nature, they aren't reliable sources, except insofar as they inspire viewers to research what they depict and suggest. But at least for me, it's easier and more productive to investigate those sources directly. It may be that I'm missing something important, but I won't be convinced of that until someone who find the film important informs me about what that is. "[Noam Chomsky,2008]

Steve courteously replies explaining the documentary as best as possible and provides a link [*long post so i abbreviated it for ease of posting]

"Thanks for taking the trouble to outline the documentary. What you describe mostly makes sense, but with some qualifications. The Fed has been too much focused on holding down inflation, contrary to its formal commitment to increase money supply to achieve growth and full employment. And there's nothing like unregulated free market capitalism. When it moves towards the Venus project -- which I've looked at a little -- my own skepticism grows. I don't see how to implement the proposals, unless the institutions are taken over and placed under popular control. Boycott doesn't seem to me a feasible option.I know Perkins's books. They're very good, but the trouble with them is that they are mostly personal experiences, hard to verify often, hence hard to use as evidence.I can't really promise to view the documentary. Rightly or wrongly, there's a lot of reading that seems to me of higher personal priority."[Noam Chomsky,2008]

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=7&id=18544

BTW- It's Peter Joseph, not Peter Jacob. And why not let your blog audience decide for themselves on the merit of the rebuttal? I noticed you failed to provide the link to the broadcast where he addresses the Chomsky critique:
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/peter-joseph
jenwild said this on December 31, 2009 at 5:48 am | Reply

Ah yes my mistake, i knew there was something not quite right about it, i used his name correctly elsewhere, i shall attend to that right away.
*fixed it thank you for notifying me.
anticultists said this on December 31, 2009 at 7:18 am | Reply

I am also an ex member of the Zeitgeist Movement. I joined in December 08 and left the movement shortly after Z-day in March. When I joined, one of the catch phrases of the movement was "the movement is what you make of it." This I found empowering and offered limitless possibilities. I was never into the Venus Project, as I saw it as unrealistic and irrelevant to our time, but I liked the first Zeitgeist movie and first half of the second one. When I went to the Z-day conference in New York I was disappointed to hear that the next big plans for the movement were to make a Hollywood movie. After stressing that the world was in peril and rallying its members to take action, a movie just didn't fit the bill. It was then that I knew that the movement was a waste of time. When the Activist Orientation Guide came out and the movement officially became "the activist arm of the Venus Project" I was further disappointed because it was then that the movement closed it self off to all possibilities of change. I have posted this below on a couple other blogs and I am going to post it here:
Is anyone curious why there is so much hype going on about the Venus Project? The answer lies in the Zeitgeist Movement, which sole purpose is promoting the Venus Project. "Activists" are encouraged to use as many outlets as they can to "spread the word" and get more people interested in the Venus Project. They have about 370,000 members listed on their website. Then the curious wander onto the Venus Project website and either donate or not. In 2008 the Venus Project's NPO Future by Design made about $28,000. Figures from 2009 are not yet available, but it is sure to be substantially more due to all the free advertising it is receiving from the Zeitgeist Movement. Meanwhile the objectives, which are clearly stated on the Venus Project website, are to first sell their materials, and then proceed to make a feature film. In fact the Venus Project seems to be so completely absorbed in its own self-promotion and movie production objectives that it forgot that its original intention was to build a test city. Members of the Zeitgeist Movement meanwhile are not given transparency of financial activities of the Venus Project. They are just encouraged to read and research more about the project and continue to spread the word. Dissenting views are not allowed on the Zeitgeist forum. Threads that offer opposing views (without sugar coating it), criticize, or demand transparency are often deleted, and the offending poster banned.
Zeitgeist members are encouraged to read and study a heap of materials in order to "educate" themselves and be able to "educate" the rest of the world. There are several books, speeches, and videos for members to listen to. There are weekly addresses given by founder Peter Joseph and the Venus Project. This is pure indoctrination tactics. Members become so absorbed in the fantasy of a new society that they forget the practical ways of attaining that society i.e. proving or disproving the claims that a Resource Based Economy is actually a viable alternative. Meanwhile members go out into the world and onto the net telling people about the Venus Project and directing them to their website. Funds indeed are being raised to support the Venus Project's movie making efforts - more indoctrination materials. Money is also being used to fund a world lecture tour for Jacque Fresco and Roxanne Meadows to such destinations as Copenhagen, London, and Cancun. All of this is in plain sight on thevenusproject.com.
Members are so passionate about the Venus Project that they tend to believe they are changing the world by engaging in arguments on the internet. They feel this way because of the rhetoric from Peter Joseph (who does not disclose his real name) and the rhetoric on both the Zeitgeist and Venus Project websites. The rhetoric leads one to believe that by supporting the Venus Project one will be helping to solve the world's problems. Obviously, members can't argue their way to a brighter future for all. What they need to realize is that anyone who goes around telling people how they SHOULD live and how the WORLD SHOULD be run, is going to be treated with skepticism. Their best argument is data and proof to support their claims. The activists fail to recognize that they are not participants in a humanitarian movement, but a very political one. The Venus Project and Zeitgeist Movement are a merging of the Technocratic Movement, and the New Left Movement of the 1960s, which is a tweaking of Marxism. This is not to state that the Venus Project is Communism, but a technocratic variation of it.
Now if the movement is as innocent as it claims to be, that would be even more frightening. It would mean that its members do not know the history of their own movement, know nothing of the New Left Movement, Herbert Marcuse, or the technocratic movement, and are operating on the premise that this is all new. Jacque Fresco is not the originator of the idea of machines performing functions in society in order to free people. Herbert Marcuse, the father of the New Left Movement of the 60s did. What is dangerous about the movement not knowing its own identity is that it makes it susceptible to be infiltrated or funded by special interest groups.
Why doesn't the Zeitgeist Movement change its name to something that incorporates the Venus Project and state its objectives clearly on its main page instead of all the rhetoric? It would prevent confusion to what its purpose is, which is to promote the Venus Project. Members on the forum sometimes take on the role of armchair social engineers, even though they don't have the background or power to make decisions as to how the future will be run. It is very delusional and illusory. Furthermore, it is outright fraud to call the movement an activist one, when it does not promote any real action at all.
The movement needs to be brought back down to earth, but the more people become indoctrinated into their belief system, the more they consider themselves to be "in the know" and others to "just not get it." The movement is stagnant and forced into the position of defending its doctrine.
The fundamental problem with the Zeitgeist Movement is this: There are many different philosophies on how to run the world. When any one political philosophy claims to be THE ANSWER, including Capitalism, Communism, Technocracy, Theocracy, or whatever, one should beware. There are elements to Capitalism that are valid as well as Socialism. All should be taken into account when planning the affairs of the world. There is no one right way, and to think otherwise is to close oneself to all possibilities of change.
gillian said this on January 1, 2010 at 10:53 pm | Reply

By the way thanks for taking the time to participate gillian, welcome, I will of no doubt talked to you or read your posts somewhere there.
And I see you have the NP0 details also... I have those too !
I grabbed them online, I have seen your posts on other blogs, good insights.
0h and you have read Marcuse too !!!
anticultists said this on January 1, 2010 at 11:45 pm | Reply

Gillian,
Interesting post. However, it seems to me that after listening a lot to the shows etc, the stress is primarily on education to make people aware of the possibility of something other than a monetary system (with all the ill-effects of a stagnating profit system) - however, the attempt to make a first city is also very present. Understanding the ideas has to come first, before we simply blindly build a city that requires a differently mindset than any of our current ones.
It sounds like you got bored - this is a danger I guess, as results are slow, given that everything is geared to maintaining whatever status quo is central at the time.
Either way, I hope that you, like me, found some interesting reading nevertheless.
Also, your point that socialism, capitalism etc are all philosophies that should be taken into account; all of these political ideologies are based on the monetary system. Ultimately they are unsustainable. Theocracy I don't see as any useful way of sustaining human life - it's pretty obvious that focusing on resource sustainability is central to life - if the water runs out, it'll take two days for countless lives to be over.
Anyway, G'nite.
Hypernation said this on January 3, 2010 at 10:11 pm | Reply

It's odd that you think TZM is fundamentally closed to change when its very foundation is a philosphy built on the understanding that change is the only constant...
s.mussared said this on May 19, 2010 at 4:39 pm | Reply

Its also odd that you have been away for entire months since the chomsky inicident and yet you feel you have some extra knowledge we dont?
It has changed, for the worst.
Try addressing the points in the posts and come back if you got counterpoints worth disussing..
anticultist said this on May 19, 2010 at 4:42 pm

I didn't claim to have more knowledge than I did before, I was merely replying to gillian's post about TZM and his assertations that TVP claims to be the end all answer to the world's problems. It's mentioned lots of times in all of the material that there is no final solution.
s.mussared said this on May 19, 2010 at 4:53 pm

Yet TZM and all its members only focus on one mans futuristic asummed solution. odd that is it not.
anticultist said this on May 19, 2010 at 4:57 pm

if you actually understood the movement, it isn't about jacque fresco or peter joseph. the "assumed solution" you're referring to like all knolwedge in the world is a collection of a lot of different ideas from a lot of different people and again...it is not a final solution...there is no such thing...
s.mussared said this on May 19, 2010 at 5:01 pm

I understand it so quit your BS
anticultist said this on May 19, 2010 at 5:02 pm

Hypernation,
I sincerely hope that the Venus Project begins to build or gives out grants to build the test city as listed in its objectives.
No, I did not leave out of boredom. I left for the reasons extensively listed above.
The point of my last paragraph was that it is arrogant and dangerous to claim to have The One Answer to the world's problems, no matter from what ideology it originates.
gillian said this on January 4, 2010 at 12:33 am | Reply

I understand your reaction - we're so conditioned to being "sold" the ONE idea, and TVP looks like a brand, with its interesting buildings and heavily futuristic look and feel, that we very quickly reject any perceived cultish groupthink; I know I certainly do.
But this is not about ideology. The difference between ideologies (like Marxism, Capitalism, Communism) is that they are assertions based on opinion, and not empirically definable - is it Chinese Communism? Or Russian Communism? etc. The Venus Project is about a PROCESS - one of technical efficiency at its absolute peak - and just as no-one would put a bridge's design up for vote, or vote on whether to implement a 20% increase in water purification, technical efficiency is self-selecting (and always should have been.)Which bridge bears more load and lasts the longest?
And if you, like I certainly was for a while, are concerned about why it's ONLY TVP and not many other organisations, remember that doubling up research and work is inefficient - by definition any organisation which is aiming for peak technical efficiency would club together with every other one and share their info. This seems to be already happening (we have a Venus Project in the UK now I think)- and ultimately TVP and Fresco's name will (and should) disappear - it's not about brands and personalities - it simply cannot be allowed to be. Fresco said this himself in the London lecture at City Uni.
It's like Photosynthesis. It's a name we apply to the process in a plant - but to the plant it's second nature. Hopefully efficient resource management will become the norm one day and we will no longer need a linguistic identifyer for the notion; It will be second nature.
But there's a long way to go for a shift like that in the zeitgeist. There are 6 billion people on the planet, and barely 0.0061% are in the movement. What did you want the next step in TZM to be if not a wider movie?
Also, why do you think that The Venus Project is irrelevant to our time?
hypernation said this on January 4, 2010 at 7:49 am | Reply

Again, the Zeitgeist Movement members go to various places on the internet and make arguments with people on the subject of the Venus Project. Again, they can't argue their way to a better future for all, but they continue to do so under the notion that they are "educating" the public.
"The Venus Project is a process and not an ideology." Right a process never attempted before and therefore we do not know whether it will work or not. What is left but a bunch of pipe dreams? A whole lot of talking about talking.
gillian said this on January 4, 2010 at 8:58 pm | Reply

Gillian, the 'process' has been attempted continuously and is what has led to the greatest outpouring of life-sustaining creation in human history. It's called the Scientific Method and it's responsible for the standard of living we have today. If only we harnessed the methods of science holistically, we could see a true abundance of human ingenuity and production - to name just a few things.
This process is more of a progression. Just as the Agricultural revolution occurred because more and more people came to understand that 'new method', so will the same occur for the methods of science - ultimately leading us to what we call a 'resource-based economy'.
Brenton said this on January 5, 2010 at 4:52 am | Reply

I have no problem with science at all. I do, however, have a problem with people trying to convince me the Resource Based Economy is valid with no scientific evidence.
Zeitgeist members are like the Mormons knocking at your door. You tell them you are not interested and they say, "What you don't want eternal life?" They will continue to pester until you have to resort to slamming the door in their faces.
gillian said this on January 5, 2010 at 5:04 am | Reply

And what part do you specifically see as invalidated? It seems relatively experiential. The resource-based economy is based upon the use of the most up-to-date already validated methods - it's the methodology of science itself. There's really nothing 'new' about it per se, other than using scientific methods as the model for social conduct.
Brenton said this on January 5, 2010 at 5:13 am | Reply

It seems that at one time Brenton would have demanded proof that a Resource Based Economy was a viable alternative to the present system.
He stated this on the Prison Planet forum on April 8, 2009: Reply #2972
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=10002.2960
"I will not hold confidence, unequivocally, in this project (Venus Project) until I see working test cities."
I wonder what caused him to change his mind and decide to go on blind faith that a Resource Based Economy would work?
gillian said this on January 5, 2010 at 6:10 am | Reply

Very simply, because everything -has- to be tested - this is of course part of the methods of science.
It doesn't matter how valid the science is, it must still be put to the test and the parameters modified until the desired result is achieved.
Brenton Eccles said this on January 5, 2010 at 8:53 am | Reply

Brenton, you can harp on about the scientific process and the ways of science all you want, with the misguided illusion it makes you sound scientific.
But I am afraid that until you and the VP actually bring any data, and scientific evidence, with scientific studies, followed by some conclusions, then Gillian is 100% right in this case.
So I am afraid you are just trying to convince the educated, about science basics which they are completely aware of.
Dont forget, publishing and peer review process as well, we need your tests verified and checked by peers. Good luck with that.
And see if you can get Jacque to do some referencing, instead of never referencing or using anything to back up his claims, like in his books:
looking forward
redesigning the future
etc..
anticultist said this on January 5, 2010 at 12:03 pm

hi
I also agree that its foolish to just casually discard chomsky's ideas as if he is just some idiot who hasnt bothered to look at the material. this is just another example of the 'lalala not listening' attitude of zeitgeist members. then they even have the cheek to turn around and say that other people are closed minded.
And as for what brenton said. the thing is that the scientific method doesnt allow you to proclaim future of mankind levels of credibility BEFORE you have actually gathered your data. the kind of claims that tvp makes should only be considered after the solid scientific data has been presented. otherwise there is no trace of the scientific method about it.
I also have a real problem with this march to the future being led by fresco and peter joseph. i have so much to say on those two that i cant even begin in this short post. suffice it to say that if this had real substance fresco wouldnt have trademarked the tern 'resource based economy' and this idea would be worldwide and free to be developed by whoever takes an interest.
So what if people would have different ideas for these concepts than fresco. this is meant to be about 'mankind' remember not the venus project. he cant use the, 'oh they will use my ideas for evil' argument. what if what they invisage the future to be isnt evil to them.
Sorry guys im digressing waaaay to much here. lets try and stay on topic. the fact is that no hint of the scientific method has been applied to ANY of the venus projects actions so far. this could largely be on account of the fact that they havent actually done ANYTHING at all so far. but thats hardly an excuse.
And as for Chomsky. the fact is he is a hugely important figure in areas relevant to the zeitgeist movement. to have him say what he did is both a serious blow to both the movements and peters ego. and what he said shouldnt just be dismissed out of hand by the movement as some kind of unimformed skepticism.
I mean, i could say the same thing about peter (who really is uninformed) but i still listened to him for ages before i finally dismissed his ideas in the end. the movement though has seen fit to condemn chomskys words as soon as they left his mouth, and that to me seems just a little too hasty
logan86 said this on January 5, 2010 at 1:50 pm | Reply

chomsky had an arrogance about him during his email, as though he was too important to read or watch the material...How can you take his opinion seriously when he didn't read or watch any of it? You might as well go ask for rumors about TZM/TVP on the street...because they both come from the same point of ignorance...
s.mussared said this on May 19, 2010 at 4:42 pm | Reply

Chomsky is a world renowned academic and critic, I take his opinion over any of your members or admins.
He has valid points, TZM is sterile, useless, passive agressive and does little to make any real change come about.
Topped off with the fact its a conspiracy theorist movement with faulty evidence and zero scientific data.
anticultist said this on May 19, 2010 at 4:45 pm

I personally don't make a habit of blindly believing something someone says because of the reverence I have for them. A real critical thinker is someone who looks past that crap because it too is a method used by people to manipulate other people...
s.mussared said this on May 19, 2010 at 4:58 pm

And a true critical thinker would be able to establish the difference between someone with integrity and someone without any.
IE - Chomky has integrity
Peter Joseph Merola/Jacque Fresco = no integrity.
anticultist said this on May 19, 2010 at 5:01 pm

"He has valid points, TZM is sterile, useless, passive agressive and does little to make any real change come about."
perhaps it isn't the movements flaws that change comes about so slowly, perhaps it is the culture built around consumerism, nationalism, fear of change...and long list of other social problems that block social change. How would you cater to such a crowd when the things that you're trying to serve them cuts across the very grain of their egotistical existence...
s.mussared said this on May 19, 2010 at 5:04 pm

Without conspiracy theories, lies, angry mods, us vs them mentality, cult mentality and all the other crap that movement has.
Deal with the facts in the posts dont ask me how I would run your movement, because I would disband it in an instant.
anticultist said this on May 19, 2010 at 5:08 pm

what the hell does integrity mean in an objective argument. Trusting someones word based off what? The same reverence I mentioned before? The fact that you side with someone because of the way you feel about that person seems to lacks a lot of objectivity...
s.mussared said this on May 19, 2010 at 5:09 pm

Nonsense
The fact you havent even questioned the integrity of peter joseph and jacque fresco like we have shows your lack of dilligence and bias.
end game read the blog posts and do one. This conversation is over fan boy.
anticultist said this on May 19, 2010 at 5:12 pm

I can tell you that I don't like those things about the movement either and it is partly why i stopped being involved. But I am still convinced and have yet seen any real evidence or logical arguments that "debunk" what TVP stands for. I also want to ask you what would be the motivating factor in your desire to disband it so disdainfully?
s.mussared said this on May 19, 2010 at 5:12 pm

people make change on their own...
remember this quote?
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed, citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
-- Margaret Mead
Why do TZM wait and wait on collecting more people if this is true !!
Inaction inaction inaction
anticultist said this on May 19, 2010 at 5:14 pm

You don't need to call me names. What good does it do you or me. I'm not here to win an ego battle over being right or wrong w/ you. I'm here because I'm convinced that if humanity is going to survive itself, the best method by which to proceed is best portrayed by this movement.
"Inaction inaction inaction"
social change is painstakingly slow as history will show.
as for the Margaret Mead quote, of course I've seen it. but like a lot of the arguments on this blog, it's taken out of context. You're implying that perhaps Peter and jacque are seeking some other purpose behind all this and maybe you're right...I can't be certain, I'm not peter and I'm not jacque. But i know that if they are seeking to take advantage of me, they have failed in doing so...I haven't given a dime. I try to engage people I know on their level about these topics...I don't spout TZM TVP stuff because I know it'd scare people away... People don't like change...We're so mentally attached to this idea of surival and security...I'm sure you're familiar with this quote:
"New opinions are always suspected, and usually opposed, without any other reason but because they are not already common." - John Locke
You told me to make up my own mind after reading this blog and I have spent the whole morning doing just that. I am still not convinced that the ideas put for by this movement are as flawed as you say they are...
s.mussared said this on May 19, 2010 at 5:29 pm

ok in that case go make your change, prove us wrong.
Meanwhile I and the rest of the ex members will be waiting.
anticultist said this on May 19, 2010 at 5:34 pm

"A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in." - Greek Proverb
This isn't some quick fix to a problem. You can't expect it to be fast. People don't like fast changes. I wish like hell I could see this change happen in my life time but I doubt wholeheartedly I will. but that doesn't give you an excuse to dismiss it. The stonemasons of the medeival era spent there entire lives building cathedrals they knew they'd never see finished,....but they still built them...
I agree that TZM is pretty ineffectual. but is there anyone really to blame? Ultimately, we're all collectively to blame for the shortcomings of mankind...and we sure as hell have a lot of those...
s.mussared said this on May 19, 2010 at 5:43 pm

Yes TZM its members and its admin are to blame.
Grand claims require grand action, lets see some.
anticultist said this on May 19, 2010 at 5:49 pm

anticultist said this on May 19, 2010 at 10:55 pm

I don't know why you're posting this video. It has little to do with our discussion.
s.mussared said this on May 20, 2010 at 3:19 am

Merola believes 911 was an inside job, he used chomsky quotes in his videos I believe.
Chomsky doesnt even agree on the basics with merola.
anticultist said this on May 20, 2010 at 4:26 am

Chomsky isn't dispelling the 9/11 issue with sheer logic. He is making a huge assumption and that is all. I recommend you go to the architects and engineers for 9/11 truth website @ cms.ae911truth.org/ and actually read and listen to their scientific analysis of the incident instead of limiting your attention span to the overly cynical outlook of an MIT linguistic professor that you venerate.
s.mussared said this on May 21, 2010 at 4:49 pm

First up I dont venerate anyone.
Second been there done that.
And allow me to point you here stevie boy:
http://www.conspiracyscience.com
Get an education, have a blast.
anticultist said this on May 21, 2010 at 6:17 pm

Assuming I'm uneducated and condescendingly calling me stevie-boy are examples again of your immaturity. They're not necessary. I've spent another morning reading links you supply me and I'm still not convinced. Most of the articles on this webpage concerning 9/11 are general and do not present any credible counter arguments that would stand up against the hypothesis that WTC collapse was due to deliberately placed demolition charges.
Anticultist says:Telling someone to get educated is not the same as calling someone uneducated Stevie boy, think about it. If I was to say to you here read this page you can learn things from it, am I calling you stupid ? of course not !
Calling you Stevie boy is me being real with you, you are a boy, hence I call you Stevie because thats your name.
Would you prefer I call you suzie girl ?
You are a conspiracy theorist Stevie boy what else is there to say to you?
There is no hope until you stop hating on the 'nwo boogie men' and the mainstream media concerning 911, and think about things objectively. As far as I am aware you arent a 911 expert, you aren't an expert architect, you aren' a forensic invesigator, you aren't an expert fireman, you aren't a demolitions expert, you aren't a scientist, you aren't a social sciences expert, you aren't a psychologist, you aren't a doctor, you have just done a semester in school recently you said, so lets be real you are unqualified to tell me about the matter. You are just a boy with an opinion who has read a few articles and watched a few youtube videos
"First up I dont venerate anyone."....ok then why did you say this....
"Chomsky is a world renowned academic and critic,"
"IE - Chomky has integrity"
Anticultist says:Thats not venerating, its called assessing the level of credibility and academic skill a person has. Chomsky has a lot of credibility and academic skill
why would either of these (opinions on chomsky's character) have any influence over your belief about the scientific method? because that is what was used by AE911truth.org to prove the official reports wrong.
Anticultist says:I dont discount 911 as an inside job because of Chomsky, thats a huge leap of assumption you just made. I discount it because of all the pro and against evidence I have come across so far. period
AE911truth.org even addresses this knee jerk reaction that Chomsky depicted in the video you posted.
Anticultist says:And what did Chomsky have to say to the 911 truthers?
"Its seems to me to be extremely unlikely. Almost certain it would have leaked. Secrets are very hard to keep." Chomsky's words...
I'd have to ask you why you think that "Debunks 9/11 with sheer logic" because it's odd for me to think that you have forgotten such things as the manhattan project. Employed over 100,000 people and was kept secret for years. If you count me uneducated then I have to question your definition of "educated" because you seem to lack objectivity and an unbiased perspective in everything you want me to read...
Anticultist says:So because the manhattan project existed this makes 911 an inside job as a fact?
Have you forgotten about watergate? remember how that little escapade was uncovered ? So why havent 911 truthers managed to uncover the truth yet ? Maybe because theres nothing else to find out
So you want a semantic argument about the word educated? get a fucking grip of yourself
Dont cry about education so much, its no shame to be less educated than others particularly if you are much less younger and haven't been on the planet as long as others.
Speaking of objectivity go and read the articles in conspiracy science instead of just calling them down without ever reading whats there, have a chat with Ed you could learn a thing or two from him I am sure.
Anticultist says:911 has been debunked get over it
not to mention the webpage u linked me was littered with advertisements for selling gold and mortgage insurance and a myriad of other shady crap which completely undermines its credibility.
Anticultist says:Ever heard of ad blockers ?
Assuming adverts on a site make it shady is the ultimate come back you have ? Dear me how scientific of you
conspiracyscience.com is another website like yours where people claim to be critical thinkers are actually just spouting their own opinions and beliefs...There's no credible evidence for counterarguments that the official reports about 9/11 are utterly wrong...
Anticultist says:Afraid that is not true you clearly have not read their articles with out your conspiracy blinkers and mindset on
This is my last post because like Chomsky I think reading this crap is probably a waste of time and unlike him I actually took the time to read it...
Cheers
Anticultist says:Since its your last post I can politely tell you to fuck off then can't I :-)
s.mussared said this on May 21, 2010 at 8:14 pm

Logan, you're points immediately fall apart the moment you typecast all Zeitgeist members as having the same views. If you are not capable of rational discussion without building straw men here there an everywhere, why would anyone respond to you with anything meaningful?
What Chomsky said is a serious blow? That's your opinion - what people say about things has zero effect on their nature. Zero. None. It is their assessment - their opinion - it is subjective. In fact, the value system of this movement, essentially places no value in what Chomsky or anyone says.
Yes, you will find people who are insulted by Chomsky - just as you will find people who won't give a f**k. So like I said, your [personal attack removed] attempt to slander the movement and it's members fell at the first hurdle of sweeping statements and conceited arrogance that your perception of the effect of Chomskys words is absolute.
We are about to form a worldwide event in March, if Chomskys words had any real effect, I think Z-day would be off. Let's see if it is.
[anticultist] Hardly Michael, we all know Chomskys words dont shut down buildings, governments, or events, thats just plain nonsense.
But what Chomskys words do, is bring a point across which zeitgeist finds distasteful and seeks to throw away, and he homes in on the public consensus of your movements ineffective inaction.[end anticultist]
Michael said this on January 16, 2010 at 11:18 pm | Reply

NOAM CHOMSKY ON TVP:
"I've looked at some of this material. I see no argument that "money is stopping" all of these good things, and I think that Fresco seriously misunderstands the workings of contemporary society and how it should be changed -- to meet his goals, for example." Noam Chomsky [2009]
From here:
http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=229&id=100070#100070
anticultist said this on January 20, 2010 at 1:37 am | Reply

I definitely did not expect to see my name on the internet like this...I've been busy at school and not very involved in all things "zeitgeist"....Seems there is a growing anti-zeitgeist movement in the mix? I'm wondering where the motivations come from.
s.mussared said this on May 19, 2010 at 3:54 pm | Reply

Its a Lot of ex members who have grown past it and seen its flaws and failings. Combined with a lot of people who never joined and saw its flaws.
welcome back hope you got lots of constructive things done steve.
anticultist said this on May 19, 2010 at 3:57 pm | Reply

I did...a whole semester at school. What flaws have you uncovered?
s.mussared said this on May 19, 2010 at 4:07 pm

Just read the blogs and decide for yourself whats right and wrong, peace.
anticultist said this on May 19, 2010 at 4:11 pm

Change doesn't happen over night! Some of you seem like you want the whole planet to turn into a big venus project in two weeks time!
Activism...look at the climat talks in copenhaguen, two weeks of civil society protesting, making their claims, empirical evidence that some island nations were going to disspaear. After all that ranting and ragging, what happend? NOTHING. Heads of state came during the last few days, they met, secret documents where exposed and then they all left! On top of that, civil society was barred from participation with the heads of state! 2 weeks of activism and in the end, jack shit got changed! The talks were indeed a big sucesss because it was business as usual!
I have problem with those who are so antagonistic to the VP. What if you had a teacher during your elementary, and highschool years that mentioned some of things that the VP adovactes? Not trying to force it down your throat (as if education system doesnt already do that) but to suggest how the enviroment affects us? To talk about the Earth, our relationship with it. Too present history from different sides. No teacher, no text book, nor my parents or grand parents even HINTED to anything that the VP advocates. Imagine what you'd think if you'd had that opportunity.
I just spent a year doing a masters in conflict resolution in the netherlands. We read the most famous litterature about the topic, learned about the biggest theorists in conflict resolution but not once did any of these so called theorists even mention the arms industry, or how the 5 permamante members of the UN security council are responsible for nearly 90% of world weapons exports. None of these theorists even questioned the monetary system. How can the UN call for peace when they're making back deals to sell weapons??
I now see what is lacking, at least from my point of view. Even Oprah, conversations with God, ekart tolle and all th rest, they never questioned the monetary system. They want you to be this soort of self-realised individual in a monetary system where you have to pay to live. Its nearly impossible when one has to slave for 40 hours or more to live. How can one developp anything under this circumtances?
fresco and Peter joseph are not perfect nor saints nor claim to be. Some of you write as if they should be. Chomsky isnt either. Nobody is. Il tell you this, though. I have near heard or read such clarity as to how the world fucntions according to the VP. Whethar this amounts to any really empirical change, we have yet to see, but at least i can die with more clarity than i ever got from a book or tv show.
robert said this on July 28, 2010 at 8:04 am | Reply

Change doesn't happen over night! Some of you seem like you want the whole planet to turn into a big venus project in two weeks time!
I dont want the venus project to happen in two lifetimes let alone 2 weeks, there are so many things wrong with it that I would not want to put anyone through the shit its going to create.
I have problem with those who are so antagonistic to the VP.
And those of us who have a problem with TVP/TZM also have a problem with people who are so desperate to change the world they will accept any half ass theory that looks good but is not thought out at all. Do we worry about whether you dont like us for our antagonism towards TVP ? Not at all.
fresco and Peter joseph are not perfect nor saints nor claim to be
Nor are they qualified/experienced in any fields they discuss and claim to be knowledgable about, they are no more valid than anything we say here, and since that is the truth there is no reason for anyone here to hold either of them in any high regard or position of intellectual authority. They are both high school failures and artschool dropouts, neither of them holds any qualities that are likable or skilled in world affairs and political know how. Neither of them has the qualities necessary to bring about any positive change in the world.
Chomsky isnt either
At least Chomsky has a history of world experience in what he discusses as well an academic grounding and peer review process going on with what he says, hes no world leader or expert in the field of world changing but he sure has more qualities about him than either fresco or merola.
I have near heard or read such clarity as to how the world fucntions according to the VP.
Then you are not very well read and have clearly not encountered any of these peoples academic and published predecessors. Since everything they are talking about is lifted directly from the pages of early utopian and socialist authors, as well as thinkers such as Buckminster Fuller/Herbert Marcuse and many other authors. This notion Fresco puts forward is nothing more than an idea thats been floating about since the early 20th century in books and society. Nothing he says is original or his own, neither is the way he has strung his information together, its all been put forward before he existed.
There is nothing remotely convincing about it or original about it.
but at least i can die with more clarity than i ever got from a book or tv show
read some more books then, because you havent read anything of value or substance if thats the case
anticultist said this on July 28, 2010 at 7:46 pm | Reply

Did christinaity,or islam spread over night, in 100 years? Human evolution moves glacially slow. Very slow. However, it does change, there more an ample proof of that. Look at gay marriage, it is now accepted in a handful of countires and in mexico city!
There is nothing new under the sun.All the information from the VP,from all of these other so-called save the world books...can trace some of their roots to scorates! Its the packaging that changes, its the era in which the information that is revealed that changes.
Its funny how you made no comment about the maters prgoram. I'm doing. What about the contradicitions from the UN, what about the fact that these theorists never question the monetary system nor the defence industry. I just told you that we've read so much material, and on my over the past 15 years so much. I've read 2 books from chomsky, 2 books from stiglizt, several publications from Ulrich Beck, naomi klein, jimmy carter and many others. I've even read the Road to Serfdom by Hayek and Huntington. I've read a of stuff but yet, you say nothign about the contraints I mentioned about the maters program.
Is your intention to improve the human the condition or is it just to critizie, and you can do that of course, but do you have an alternative in mind? You might have written somethign here that i haven't come across yet, i dont know.
It is sooooo sooooo easy to trash and tear down, we are al gulity of that. Its delicious for our egos, I love it too!
I'm willing to drop the VP if in time I feel that what they advocate and how they package information, weather it be from other books or not (who is really original?)is no longer relevant to me.
robert said this on July 29, 2010 at 7:01 am | Reply

Did christinaity,or islam spread over night, in 100 years?
If you are comparing TZM/TVP to a religious ideology nice comparison. I think it is becoming more of a cultlike/religious ideology daily and the ideas have not evolved any further in a century than they were proposed originally by all the previous authors.
There is nothing new under the sun.All the information from the VP,from all of these other so-called save the world books...can trace some of their roots to scorates! Its the packaging that changes, its the era in which the information that is revealed that changes.
The so called Save the world books of Jacque Frescos are just repackaged ideas lifted from other authors I am glad we agree on that.
Its funny how you made no comment about the maters prgoram. I'm doing.
Why would I want to talk about you and your masters program? It is completely irrelevant to the topic of discussion, that is unless you consider your educational studies to be of major importance to this threads points, which I dont.
Is your intention to improve the human the condition or is it just to critizie,
My intention is to point out all the flaws and nonsense in TVP/TZM I will not stand by and watch a bunch of mediocre uneducated people to profess their superior intellect and originality when its all completely fabricated rubbish and also is potentially damaging in that its lies based on conspiracy theories.
So lets keep it on topic.
anticultist said this on July 29, 2010 at 1:04 pm | Reply

My intention is to viciously mock the human condition. I bet I'll be more successful than The Venus Project in my intentions.
NWO Agent said this on July 29, 2010 at 10:58 pm | Reply

So if you believe the current system we live is any better ( I don't know if you do) Why did the US, Canada, Denmark the UK, Ireland, Australia which are the most neoliberal countires along with the other 40 or so countries abstain from voiting in favor of the United Nations resolution to declare water and sanitation as human right? Why would any of those 41 countries, mostly wealthy ones, deny water, as a human right??
Billions of people are suffering from the lack of clean water ans sanitation. its appauling. Its digusting. And dont argue that this is not part of the venus project disscusion, or that i dont have the facts righ blah blah blah. This is exaclt what they're talking about and not just tvp but human rights groups around the globe. This is not nonsens as you so often do and offer no solution or idea yourself.
The countries that abstained are symptomatic of the profit driven system. They have vested interest..one of which is to commodify every apsect of human life. That is neoliberal policy in a nustshell. if you read the statments by each country that abstained you will see the curious excuses they gave to vote no against the resolution.
Naturally, not one country voted againt the resolution, they dare not but abstaining its almost the same.
robert said this on July 31, 2010 at 6:29 am | Reply

i dont know why it happened and neither do you:
The countries that abstained are symptomatic of the profit driven system. They have vested interest..one of which is to commodify every apsect of human life.
while it may seem this is so, you have no direct evidence to prove this is the reason the vote went the way it did, you are assuming this is the answer why.
anticultist said this on July 31, 2010 at 11:02 am | Reply

your comment is fantastic, is show how much avoid talking about anytthign serious except how nonsens and how everyboy has it wrong and you have it right. forget about the water as human right.....just remember you dont know why they abstained. i come on, c'est incroyable je te jure! les gens comme toi, ça me dépasse sans déconner
robert said this on July 31, 2010 at 8:18 pm | Reply

It's also amazing for me how you can assume that the entire political establishment is acting under the same influence worldwide as if every member is a part of a grand conspiracy to dominate and destroy the planet.
Can you explain why they abstained or refused to act other than state it is because of a worldwide conspiracy ?
If not then perhaps you know as little as anyone else why they chose to act as they did, and are merely grasping at the only reason or answer that serves your own personal preference.
Like I said I can not explain why it occurred I dont have enough information that can be verified and tested to prove a reason, so I am happy to say I do not know why. You on the other hand know as little to the reason as I do but you decide to conclude something from it without evidence. You are not using the scientific method to draw your conclusion you are just utilising confirmation bias to provide an answer that agrees with your own pre ordained belief system.
anticultist said this on July 31, 2010 at 8:26 pm | Reply

The problem with the venus project is that it has become sort of a dogma and that it is based on some prejudices, like for instance that we are all products of the conditioning of our enviroment and the circumstances we faced in our lifes.To a certain degree this is true, Hitler initially wanted to become an artist and had he not failed in his ambitions and had not gone through the hell of world war 1 he maybe wouldnt have become that psycopath he was.But other people went through similair expiriences without turning into evil monsters.Jaques Fresco often oversymplifies things and i also never saw him having a real discussion with his audience.He seemingly encourages discussions and questions, but i never saw him really answering a question, he has his memmorized storys which he is always repeating and when he is asked something he piks out one and hopes that it might answer the question.
However he seems to be really sincere in his intentions.It seems that he is concerned with mankind and its fate and he did what he could to workout solutions for many of the worlds problems.I mean , the man is 93, what earthly (or selfish) ambitions could he possibly have now.
And regarding his lack of originality:He admited repeatedly that he was influenced by others in his thinking and named them.
I definitively prefer him to chomsky because Chomsky is obviously a manipulator .His best method to effortlessly kill a theory he is not in favor of is to state:"it collaps on analysis"and thats it, he refuses to go into it, relying on his fabricated reputation as "the worlds leading intellectuell"and that the people will understand that he is not going to waste his precious time discussing "nothing" issues.There is enough information on the internet that point to the fact that Chomsky is actually serving the elites he seemingly opposes.One good article is written by Jeff Blankfort which i recommend.
Sammy said this on September 19, 2010 at 6:17 pm | Reply

[...] Noam Chomsky on Zeitgeist & Venus Project [...]
Zeitgeist Blogs: Zeitgeist is a Mind Heist « Zeitgeist Movement Exposed said this on November 10, 2010 at 9:09 pm | Reply

[...] Noam Chomsky on Zeitgeist & Venus Project [...]
Zeitgeist Blogs: Zeitgeist is a Mind Heist « Zeitgeist Movement Exposed said this on November 10, 2010 at 9:10 pm | Reply

I just stumbled upon this piece again and Chomsky just nailed it. TZM and TVP are still entangled in their inability to collaborate to an extent that even with proper management, which everybody IN the movement seems to admit they are lacking, they would be unable to have any major impact on the world, as their message is so outrageously imprecise and passive.
CJ said this on April 24, 2011 at 4:22 pm | Reply

noam chomsky is a smartass. He has written too many books and given too many lectures. He is suffocated with self pride and lacks imagination and charm. I´d rather stay with a new idea than with an encyclopedia plenty of analysis, which is the only thing chomsky has done.
Trueno33 said this on June 20, 2011 at 12:18 am | Reply

The idea you call'new' has been kicking about on Earth for decades, perhaps even ideologically for centuries, so your argument is meaningless. Also new does not mean better or correct, try to use your brain and analyse what he is saying about TZM. That is that they are analogous to a headless chicken flapping about doing nothing of value. If TZM could even manage to do something that was of substance maybe your 'new' idea might be of some value, but the fact remains TZM is all hot air with no direction or action.
anticultist said this on April 18, 2012 at 1:11 pm | Reply

Chomsky's point is that an RBE lacks a concrete political lever to implement it according to the current political landscape. It lacks a "militant" agenda.
What Chomsky fails to mention however is that all the points raised by TZM have never been scientifically debunked as of today's scientific knowledge (2012). And even if any of the points are refuted within the scientific method, TZM can and will adapt to the new knowledge. Ergo, it can never be ultimately debunked as it will always adapt to the latest scientific knowledge, which inherently is its very premise.
BTW, I read all the scientific literature presented in the Zeitgeist Moving Forward 2011 film long before I watched the film. Peter Joseph is just the messenger of this knowledge and never even claims to have produced evidence himself.
Femi said this on April 17, 2012 at 9:33 pm | Reply

Actually an RBE can and has been debunked all over the internet. Plus TZM no longer has anything to do with TVP ergo the RBE concept which they promoted no longer stands as it did in the movies.
Jacque Fresco himself stated that TZM and its members neither understood the concept of an RBE or would be of any use in bringing it about.
anticultist said this on April 18, 2012 at 1:06 pm | Reply

All the so-called debunking attempts lack scientific, measurable and falsifiable details. They are all solely based on economic and sociologic assumptions which have no leg from natural sciences to stand on. Nothing verifiable or falsifiable within the scientific method. Just blanket statements.
Besides, all people who state that RBE has been debunked never make the slightest effort to point to serious references from academic publications, papers etc in all due detail. All such "debunking" claims are based on opinions, conditioned by their respective social environments.
Femi said this on April 18, 2012 at 1:24 pm

That is just your opinion kid, your entire post is a blanket opinion statement, try harder.
anticultist said this on April 19, 2012 at 12:02 pm

You just revealed your lack of understanding of the scientific method.
Femi said this on April 19, 2012 at 9:30 pm | Reply

Yeah because your claims of TZM using it are true right ? LOL get the fuck off the internet and do some study.
anticultist said this on April 20, 2012 at 1:00 pm | Reply

You have actually disqualified yourself from the topic.
The fields of neuroscience and epigenetics gain new ground every day. The concepts of neuronal plasticity and mirror neurons are in fact observable and/or measurable in laboratory experiments. "Human nature" equals "extraordinary mental responsiveness to environmental influences". There is demonstrably no such thing as predetermined, set-in-stone human behaviour. That's the bottom line of all subsequent considerations in an RBE. Humans are born hungry and needy, and raised to be greedy. If you had read the most recent human biology literature and then watched the Zeitgeist 3 film you might understand what I'm referring to. But as I said, you only *might*.
Femi said this on April 24, 2012 at 9:59 am

Don't get all upset if we dont put your group in a good light, or prevent you from posting on here, remember, you have your own little group and forum to run to for that.

This is not your groups personal chat area, it is our personal area.
Users of forums [TZM] are constantly reminded that if they disagree they should go elsewhere and post, this is a place they can post, especially if they have differing opinions to said forums consensus.

Also don't be expecting debates here, this is a place to host information and ideas against movements for consideration purposes [at present TZM & TVP].

I don't think Peter Joseph disowned the first movie, I think he just calls it unproductive so that he doesn't have to answer to anyone who says its wrong. I think that his case leading up to his conclusions are still built on the premises of the movie -but just in case someone thinks the movie isn't accurate, he can say it's irrelevent. He can have his cake and eat it too.
anon said this on February 10, 2010 at 10:06 am | Reply

Yeah agreed thats my meaning really, but you have made clear my meaning.
He has made it easy on himself to be a hypocrit.
anticultist said this on February 10, 2010 at 3:15 pm | Reply

Really, really great post. Appreciate your view.
Shy said this on March 23, 2010 at 12:16 pm | Reply

Thank you shy
anticultist said this on March 23, 2010 at 7:35 pm | Reply

Yes, i see the same problem.
But it all starts in the first movie, take that as representative, was detrimental for all the movement. And that PJ not willing to clarify all the mistakes, just avoid, or "move forward" , it´s the same action, it´s not helping them.
Anyway, emergent, and symbiosis, is something that the venus project lacks, isn´t that a contradiction, of what his goal really is?
anon said this on April 14, 2010 at 6:32 am | Reply

I agree Anon there are still whackjobs that still beleive Archarya S's rubbish from the first movie.In fact both Peter and the idiot members of the movement use the same creationist logic with the astrotheology tripe word for word even going as far as saying "you obviously havent read or watched their work" or "do your own research" or even worse "you see they are not experts" or my favourite "he/she is defending their religion and are a christian apologists".Seriously there is no way whatsoever that these guys are going to last any more than two to four years.
Shane Nolan said this on April 14, 2010 at 11:30 am | Reply

two to four years might be a long stretch they wish they had lasted.
I'm solving these problems well ahead of them or frankly anyone and thats going to be increasingly the only thing
thats relevant to talk about.
TVP was a dead cult walking the moment they lied in public
about me regarding my presentation of factual knowledge
and called me crazy and painted me as ignorant when in
fact i was presenting expert knowledge flawlessly.
From there on out what matters most is that I am the autocad and multi expert whos shopping, and they are the toss away example of no place worth my time;
I'm the one with my hand in Gods cookie jar and they are
the ones who have blinded themselves with a demonic drum party dancing circles around their brains.
I'm the one whos now posting new autocad and sketchup images at RBEF based on meaningful not fanciful engineering, and TVP is left out in the cold;
with their ridiculous 70s drawings and then a redress they obviously paid somebody for and who didn't give them days and days the extra miles and extra miles, just did his work and got out.
Meanwhile, I could do all that work jaques would have to pay somebody for for free, including fix the mistakes he made on his social chalk board.
whos winning and whos losing and how fast will that ripple
through?
I give TVP 6 months tops.
Thats if i become utterly uninterested in them and they
are very boring and maybe even suddenly half wake up
due to the obvious lawsuits they are now advertising.
It could happen a lot quicker than that- their forums could be empty in less than 30 days.
Sorry for being morbid. now, who wants to play?
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=393&t=2027
prometheuspan said this on April 24, 2010 at 6:26 pm

You would hope that they would be open to emergence and evolution, but anyone who has experienced involvement in their forums will already know this simply does not exist.
Jacque makes the rules for his project, noone else gets to decide what it is affilliated with or how it progresses or changes. Its as simple as this:
Its a one man show and the rest of the people are just hangers on promoting it for him.
anticultist said this on April 14, 2010 at 11:50 am | Reply

Only when Acharya,Peter,Roxanne and Jacques are publicy humilated and/or exposed then we will have enough of this rubbish and probably have a proper examination and implementation of an RBE carried out(if possible).
Shane Nolan said this on April 14, 2010 at 12:25 pm

Hi,
The concept of a resource based economy belongs to everyone. An idea like this can't be owned or attributed to one group and i hope TVP and ZM understand this. Also, having worked at a grass roots level in my own local community, the idea of a world wide system is naive and even frightening. Better to keep it local and let it grow according to the local area a people occupy. The work should be centred on communication and shared values between comunities encouraging people to stay calm and develop good communication skills and to rise above their understandable fears.
The initial structure would probably be based on the resources available in each community and the respect and nurture of individual freedoms between the hopefully peaceful and progressive societies that emerge. There will be problems to sort, big ones and there will probably be bloodshed. A person who has lived in a war zone (and there are many) will agree. but we can limit this destruction if we work in smaller groups and communities and get a co-operative dialogue in place.
If it comes to the collapse of the current system and we truly care about our planet and the life apon it then we can rebuild from the local communities. this is where our strength will be and and to be practical, it will be our only hope! Basic needs will quickly come into attention and the value systems of a handful of individuals from a community on the opposite end of the globe, with it's different climates and resources will not apply to you - and your immediate experience.
Automating government is a ridiculous idea for now anyway, i have to say it, in my opinion. I'm currently active in the australian z movement to get the information out there about the system we are born into, and expose the growing madness of it and the real possibility of it's collapse.
I'm not into cults, titles or individual gurus of any kind. Social change only ever occurs at a local community level and usually when the rights of the individuals within it are disrespected or ignored...there are people who emerge as representatives that speak for the people of their immediate communities. This is the only leadership i feel has any value. If TVP and ZM has the real understanding and love for humanity, then it must relinquish it's ownership of titles and demands for conformity...otherwise it encourages division and devisive action and so the essential pearl is lost in the storm. I know what i'll be doing if and when this system collapses. I'll be attending to individuals who need assistance, organising food water and medical supplies, keeping the peace and calming people down with as much hope as i can muster. The implementation of an rbe will happen at a local level. The challenge would be to allow those with the people mangement skills to function without any overtly egoccentric bullshit emerging. Global will always mean ' many in co-operation' and not one dominant system - to me. I would be more impressed with an emergence of community independance and co-operation - because i can assure you, without it, it will just be chaos and the birth of sysemic global domination once again. If money isn't the driving force, it will become clear what each person is interested in, where their strengths are, who is willing to do what etc.. and the actual experience of a collapsing system and the survival strategies that arise will be the preliminary deciding factors of what is to come - in my opinion.
Rz said this on April 24, 2010 at 7:04 am | Reply

I agree, real change will actually happen on a local level and also by teaching people how to be survival-independent when the collapse happens. Waiting for the collapse and expecting TZM or TVP to save us is something I'm not going to do. The real activism comes from teaching people how to get by through the tough times that are more likely to come in an economic sense. There's many many local non-profit organizations in your own city/state/country - if one took the time to do research. That I've done and continue to. I think it's a bit egocentric for a movement that's almost two years old to talk as if it's good to have organizations under their umbrella while the organizations under that umbrella has done more activism for years and even decades - depending on who you are talking about. So you can see the activist-infighting happening already. On that note, I don't plan to waste my time with that unless I'm pulled in to explain my position. If anything, a real activist should dedicate themselves to humanity and Earth, not a movement or organization. There should be revolving door environments for space for collaborations because deep inside ourselves, we do care about where this planet is heading on the long run. The environment must be healthy first so that we can have healthy people and with healthy people, we can get more involved into doing actual activism. It's the first step of healing and looking into human behavior will be the very key of that. With all the ISMs in words we have knee-jerk reactions to coming from the Zeitgeist Movement or being in it still, being an activist is something we can still be proud of.
But...this is all my opinion also.
As far as my personal experience with the Zeitgeist Movement, I can relate a lot and confirm with what you're saying AntiCultist. I got some blog-reading to catch up on I see.
BranManFloMore said this on April 24, 2010 at 4:25 pm | Reply

It's true, that they seem not open to emergence or evolution even in person when it isn't directly affiliated with TVP. There is not much conversation happening and even on a one to one basis, it's all stock standard answers and no listening or spontaneous conversation of any kind. someone described them as 'programmed'
Well i saw that, but i have enough compassion to let it go becuae they have peoples attention, and that attention is very valueable as a vehicle for change.
I suppose it's about personal financial survival, ironically, within the monetary system! The value of keeping affiliations open and of allowing other groups to develop community specific project independently - may threaten their financial needs..even though it is absolutely necessary for the success of any transition from one system to the next! I understand their fears. But no one group will be able to cling to a resource based economy as their own concept. As i said before, the idea belongs to everyone and isn't that the point? As an alternative system, a resource based economy is emerging as the obvious one and their world tour should be about education and encouragement to independence from the monetary system. I don't think it would affect their financial survival as they are at present able to attract attention as spokespersons. I noticed they were unable to answer any questions about the transitionary plan - as they don't have one. I suspect that is because a transitionary plan would encourage a divergence away from them - especially financially? Maybe they just don't know?
After this world tour, the idea of survival, independent of the monetary system will spread quickly.
Future funds we raise could be used to create our own projects locally, buying some land and creating a tangible workable physical model that people could see for themselves. I'm not talking about hippy communes either! For example, we have had some success with inner city community gardens, where food and herbs are grown. The problem is the land was owned by the government and they took it back to build apartments! There is still a herb garden, but it isn't very big and we do need obviously visible gardens and projects so people can see the activity and get interested that way. Shelter is everywhere in the city! Food on the otherhand comes from a store. The models for hydroponic inner city farming could be put into place with some serious lobbying right now! It's important to remember, We have interested people in all sorts of places, including current council and government departments. Sure it's not easy, i know this to be the case, but it's not impossible.
In short, my interest in the concepts raised by ZM and TVP will always be about the application and support of an alternative system at a grass roots level. This is a great thing that's happening and despite all the usual bickering, ZM and TVP are of great value to raising awareness. I allow flaws and perceieved faults - especially my own :) because the purpose of presenting alternatives to the people of the world is served quite well anyway! Isn't that the real point at this stage, to raise awareness?
Preventing the collapse would be easier if we could somehow incorporate the idea of continuing to function even in the event of economic collapse. after all, economic collapse would also bring with it freedom - no bills or mortgages and so on. I have this crazy idea to get a survival booklet out to the whole city that encourages the people to keep on going in the event of a total economic collapse...to keep on doing what they do, just to see for themselves that we can survive without money.
Rz said this on April 24, 2010 at 9:37 pm | Reply

Thanks for the reply.
"It's true, that they seem not open to emergence or evolution even in person when it isn't directly affiliated with TVP."
Yeah, you can see the isolation begin.
"There is not much conversation happening and even on a one to one basis, it's all stock standard answers and no listening or spontaneous conversation of any kind. someone described them as 'programmed' "
Well, I did notice on the FORUMS in TZM that Peter Joseph is working on the Q&A more on the website. But yeah, I don't blame anyone if they called TZM 'programmed'. Especially passing their test to even enter in their FORUMS, I mean seriously.
"Well i saw that, but i have enough compassion to let it go becuae they have peoples attention, and that attention is very valueable as a vehicle for change."
The tenets, sure, but the movement has been proven to be unprofessional time and time again. I get tired of them saying that they are not perfect, as if the word perfect defines professionalism. I know, another ISM word. People have even shot suggestions and they are either ignored or replied back with threats or banning or to an insult. It's quite annoying. But if the people must, then they will create their own vehicles and carry out the same compassion. It would be a shame to see that compassion die down because of the level of ignorance that takes place.
"I suppose it's about personal financial survival, ironically, within the monetary system!"
I wouldn't know, but their must be monetary struggle to keep up the website I would imagine. But then again, the whole issue of transparency comes up.
"The value of keeping affiliations open and of allowing other groups to develop community specific project independently - may threaten their financial needs..even though it is absolutely necessary for the success of any transition from one system to the next!"
I don't see how collaborations with other organizations threaten them financially. If anything, it would help if the Zeitgeist Movement actually had a project to fund with transparency. More volunteers, more progress.
"I understand their fears."
If they understood their fears, they would have made a lot of changes regarding the rules they put out and moderation in general. But you don't see no change there and it has been pointed how much of a joke they are. Just look at the Public Moderation Forum alone and you'll see my point.
"But no one group will be able to cling to a resource based economy as their own concept."
That's true, if you're talking about trademarking. I can't remember who said it and I'm paraphrasing here, but someone said that trademarking RBE would be like trademarking Capitalism. With that said, trademarking would be a waste of time and I think they lost that case any ways. I haven't fully read up on that. But yes, more vehicles would have to be created, especially when the popular one crashes.
"As i said before, the idea belongs to everyone and isn't that the point?"
Yeah, common heritage.
"As an alternative system, a resource based economy is emerging as the obvious one and their world tour should be about education and encouragement to independence from the monetary system."
I agree. Hopefully the activism on a local level will be stronger after that and people won't be afraid to network.
"I don't think it would affect their financial survival as they are at present able to attract attention as spokespersons."
I don't think so either.
"I noticed they were unable to answer any questions about the transitionary plan - as they don't have one."
That was always an issue, I think people are going to try different economic systems as transitional methods. There's not going to be a leap of faith between now and there, especially with RBE existing.
"I suspect that is because a transitionary plan would encourage a divergence away from them - especially financially?"
That could be the case.
"Maybe they just don't know?"
I guess we'll have to find out.
"After this world tour, the idea of survival, independent of the monetary system will spread quickly."
We'll see.
"Future funds we raise could be used to create our own projects locally, buying some land and creating a tangible workable physical model that people could see for themselves."
As long as a group of people commit to transparency, I wouldn't see a problem with that. But I would however try to call whatever economic system inspired by RBE not RBE, because you never know if Peter, Roxanne or Jacque might have a problem with you going independent like that. Might cause more infighting, more groups leaving the Zeitgeist Movement or being independent with their activism. Right now, you're probably under their radar for even responding to this blog. And for me, I don't care.
"I'm not talking about hippy communes either!"
Of course not.
"For example, we have had some success with inner city community gardens, where food and herbs are grown."
That's great news.
"The problem is the land was owned by the government and they took it back to build apartments!"
Crazy.
"There is still a herb garden, but it isn't very big and we do need obviously visible gardens and projects so people can see the activity and get interested that way."
Wow, well that's amazing.
"Shelter is everywhere in the city!"
I would imagine.
"Food on the otherhand comes from a store."
Okay.
"The models for hydroponic inner city farming could be put into place with some serious lobbying right now!"
Interesting.
"It's important to remember, We have interested people in all sorts of places, including current council and government departments. Sure it's not easy, i know this to be the case, but it's not impossible."
Oh, don't be discouraged.
"In short, my interest in the concepts raised by ZM and TVP will always be about the application and support of an alternative system at a grass roots level."
Well, I'm going to stay open-minded for other solutions as well and try not to be narrow-minded.
"This is a great thing that's happening and despite all the usual bickering, ZM and TVP are of great value to raising awareness."
Yeah, people are actually doing something.
"I allow flaws and perceieved faults - especially my own :) because the purpose of presenting alternatives to the people of the world is served quite well anyway! Isn't that the real point at this stage, to raise awareness?"
By awareness, you mean by taking action and showing that other alternative or alternatives? Yes. RBOSE and RBEF does the same thing pretty much.
"Preventing the collapse would be easier if we could somehow incorporate the idea of continuing to function even in the event of economic collapse."
When people say "preventing", they might as well say patchwork. I understand that we don't want to see anyone struggle, but if everything is fine in your proximity, then you won't do anything. But if you see the economy failing locally where you live, then promoting alternatives is the thing to do now and you'll be motivated to do so instead of procrastinate about the matter at hand. It can be done in an okay area as well. The word "collapse" brings in fearmongering and that I understand. But we must prepare ourselves for the unexpected.
"after all, economic collapse would also bring with it freedom - no bills or mortgages and so on."
That's if you know how to stand on your own feet.
"I have this crazy idea to get a survival booklet out to the whole city that encourages the people to keep on going in the event of a total economic collapse...to keep on doing what they do, just to see for themselves that we can survive without money."
I wouldn't call it crazy, the Great Depression did happen and people need to know the possibilities of it happening again.
BranManFloMore said this on April 24, 2010 at 11:01 pm

Preventing the collapse would be easier if we could somehow incorporate the idea of continuing to function even in the event of economic collapse. after all, economic collapse would also bring with it freedom - no bills or mortgages and so on.
Assuming it will happen, but the side effects of an economic collapse you laid out above, IE no mortgage payments etc are the reason it wont happen, companies will claw their way to get back whats theirs some how some way.
And if a collapse does occur it wont be a matter of everyone is left alone to get on with it, far from that it will be a pandemic of violence and anarchy no less. Have you ever seen political unrest with anarchy and looting in the streets? Think of this on a global scale and you are somewhere near what will happen, irrespective of awareness or not, people take what they can and opt for the shortfall easy way until they have no alternative left but to figure a way out of the mess.
While TVP and their followers somehow think that they will miraculously make the world great from collapse, I dont see this at all.
I see mass aggitation and violence, selfish taking and stealing until there is nothing left and those that have things protect them.
This is all of course speculative and futuristic, but people are animals first and social creatures second, we are social because it serves a purpose to group together cohesively for trade/profits and survival, take away everything and people will either stay in the cities and loot or run for the hills and survive.
anticultist said this on April 25, 2010 at 12:15 pm

"I agree, real change will actually happen on a local level and also by teaching people how to be survival-independent when the collapse happens."
I'd very much appreciate it if we could just prevent the collapse.
all thats required to do that for a single transferable motto is;
go ask pan hard questions on RBEF that vtv and crew could never answer.
I will again repeat the obvious and most important thing to consider.
TVP always alienates people if they are competent and in direction proportion then to their competency.
Any group that forms end up at odds with the parent because the parent is fucking batshit insane.
and i do apologize for the lingua code violations there but truly,
just merely "insane" simply doesn't cover it.
understanding this then, they are a high competency vaccuum sink;
where they have good ideas but are incompetent to implement them.
Anyone whos actually got something worth doing or listening to will
make them nervous. They don't know how to collaborate; only hold the stage.
that last thing i will say twice; because i know and LIVE the difference.
they don't know how to collaborate;
on hold the stage.
collaboration is then driven out; thats why there are 7 splinter groups and facebook groups formed just to discuss them and this.
Whats the real moral of the story?
all seven groups should get it that this is about collaboration;
and we should collaborate.
by all means, help yourself to my drawings.
:)
http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=393&t=2027
prometheuspan said this on April 24, 2010 at 6:35 pm | Reply

I just checked out your designs on that thread and I think they are awesome. I didn't know Google had such an application such as SketchUp: http://sketchup.google.com
It looks like you can knock out a lot of designs for your models that way and anyone else who is interested in starting or keep it going.
I'll keep an eye on this.
BranManFloMore said this on April 27, 2010 at 4:38 pm | Reply

"I'd very much appreciate it if we could just prevent the collapse."
Then we should work from both angles.
"all thats required to do that for a single transferable motto is;
go ask pan hard questions on RBEF that vtv and crew could never answer."
Yeah, I wouldn't bother with TZM any more. Clearly RBOSE has been blacklisted and RBEF is spam.
"I will again repeat the obvious and most important thing to consider."
Okay.
"TVP always alienates people if they are competent and in direction proportion then to their competency."
Sadly, yeah.
"Any group that forms end up at odds with the parent because the parent is fucking batshit insane."
And abusive.
"and i do apologize for the lingua code violations there but truly, just merely "insane" simply doesn't cover it."
Oh, you were provoked for sure. A lot of us were.
"understanding this then, they are a high competency vaccuum sink;
where they have good ideas but are incompetent to implement them."
That's where branching comes in, rather the outcome is negative or positive, so far - it has been negative. That says a lot by itself.
"Anyone whos actually got something worth doing or listening to will make them nervous."
Yeah, being analytical is something they can't handle. So it's time for us to wear our own thinking caps.
"They don't know how to collaborate; only hold the stage."
I agree to that.
"that last thing i will say twice; because i know and LIVE the difference."
I can tell you speak from experience and I appreciate your comments here. I'm reading more into what you say in general.
"they don't know how to collaborate; on hold the stage."
Yup Yup.
"collaboration is then driven out; thats why there are 7 splinter groups and facebook groups formed just to discuss them and this."
I'm thinking about joining them myself.
"Whats the real moral of the story?"
I'm listening.
"all seven groups should get it that this is about collaboration;
and we should collaborate."
Agreed, we should tell them about RBEF and RBOSE, I should look more into RBEF myself.
"by all means, help yourself to my drawings."
Alrighty then.
":)"
;)
"http://www.rbefoundation.com/grouptopic.php?f=393&t=2027″
http://rbose.org/wiki/Projects
BranManFloMore said this on April 24, 2010 at 7:04 pm | Reply

Hey the rbose wiki project is a wonderful thing!
thanks for that link, i've set up an account x
Rz said this on April 24, 2010 at 10:23 pm | Reply

:)
You're welcome.
BranManFloMore said this on April 25, 2010 at 1:01 am

Also these groups are splinters needing of regrouping.
http://www.theresourcebasedeconomy.org/
&
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=113480501997370&ref=mf
anticultist said this on April 24, 2010 at 7:20 pm | Reply

&
http://www.thenzp.com/
anticultist said this on April 24, 2010 at 7:26 pm | Reply

Awesome website indeed.
BranManFloMore said this on April 27, 2010 at 4:59 pm | Reply

I just wish we could all get along! why do we always leave that to the last minute?!!! :) and why do we all take ourselves so seriously so much of the time? In my opinion it's because most of my brothers and sisters don't remember they were someone else once. Yep i'm talking about birth and death and the life cycle between them..the one that gets recycled, broken down into symbolic nutrients, planted in some nice warm dark nether region of a dimension and then drawn back into matter like a baby in mothers arms! The one's of us who do, can forget trying to explain this - half a lifetime will wear you down like a pebble, till youre so shiny, it's water off a ducks back with the disbelief. Proof, they want scientific proof...well i hope they find it. The experience is enough for me. The point is not about the 'reincarnation' the point is, if more people experienced this phenomena, they probably wouldn't take themselves so seriously - choosing instead to make a better world (from which it seems to me, at this stage, there may be no escape - not even death). Forget your grandkids...wait till everyone realises WE are our grandkids!
The tyrants of today become the victims of tommorrow and so forth. i don't know why this happens, i don't know how either. There are lots of complicated answers some are esoteric, some are bloody nuts..
No matter how low i may go, i still mange to raise my head up and find something to laugh about. Not enough laughter in this world exposure thing - and alot of paranoia too.
we should all cut the crap and just work this thing. Open up the field and communicate as politely as possible!
thanks for your replies as well.
Rz said this on April 25, 2010 at 7:01 am | Reply

I'm replying again ;]
"I just wish we could all get along!"
Yeah... Well... It's a waste of my energy, I rather just work on projects.
"why do we always leave that to the last minute?!!!"
When we were all introduced to the Zeitgeist Movement, I think 99.9 percent of us were positive and were totally hyped by it all. But I wouldn't say that being positive was something that wasn't tried before and something we should do as the last minute as it's the first time.
":)"
I appreciate you coming and trying to be positive.
"and why do we all take ourselves so seriously so much of the time?"
Because people would look at us as jokes if we don't take ourselves seriously and what we are trying to do.
"In my opinion it's because most of my brothers and sisters don't remember they were someone else once."
People do change depending on the type of people they meet. People just don't change just because.
"Yep i'm talking about birth and death and the life cycle between them..the one that gets recycled, broken down into symbolic nutrients, planted in some nice warm dark nether region of a dimension and then drawn back into matter like a baby in mothers arms!"
Hmmmm... Deep.
"The one's of us who do, can forget trying to explain this - half a lifetime will wear you down like a pebble, till youre so shiny, it's water off a ducks back with the disbelief."
Well, I think it's healthy for us to step back for a moment and come back to what we care about. Because once we're drained, we won't feel like doing anything. I was at that point once.
"Proof, they want scientific proof...well i hope they find it."
Me too. I'll have my microscope out.
"The experience is enough for me. The point is not about the 'reincarnation' the point is, if more people experienced this phenomena, they probably wouldn't take themselves so seriously - choosing instead to make a better world (from which it seems to me, at this stage, there may be no escape - not even death)."
If you're referring to empathy, I agree. But I think we should look at things seriously, if we don't - then we'll just be passive in general and well...that wouldn't do anything.
"Forget your grandkids...wait till everyone realises WE are our grandkids!"
Yes, we all have grandparents.
"The tyrants of today become the victims of tommorrow and so forth."
A victim of being drunk off authority therefore drowning in their own corruption and getting slapped by reality? I guess you can say that.
"i don't know why this happens, i don't know how either."
It'll happen by people learning the hard way sadly.
"There are lots of complicated answers some are esoteric, some are bloody nuts.."
I would say what you call "bloody nuts" and "esoteric" may fall into something I would call in the "gray area".
"No matter how low i may go, i still mange to raise my head up and find something to laugh about."
Yeah, comedians are social scientists. I have a favorite list of them myself. Comedy, art and music gets me by.
"Not enough laughter in this world exposure thing - and alot of paranoia too."
True.
"we should all cut the crap and just work this thing."
We are, but we're not going to work with those who we don't take seriously. If we did, people wouldn't feel true to themselves A.K.A. forced to throw fake smiles and be vexed.
"Open up the field and communicate as politely as possible!"
Attempts were tried. If people want to reach out to us, they know what to do. And an apology would be nice.
"thanks for your replies as well."
I appreciate the feedback.
BranManFloMore said this on April 27, 2010 at 4:56 pm | Reply

okay, wow, nice links. i will have to think on how to approach these
assorted groups.
Rhe rbose wiki is impressive.
the new zeland project also has some design work they have done ...
up on the front page...
:)
prometheuspan said this on April 25, 2010 at 9:16 am | Reply

They are nice links.
"i will have to think on how to approach these
assorted groups."
"Rhe rbose wiki is impressive."
:)
"the new zeland project also has some design work they have done ...
up on the front page...
:)"
Yes, I'm very impressed with what they are doing. I'll be watching other websites as well.
BranManFloMore said this on April 27, 2010 at 4:35 pm | Reply

Is this where everyone goes who gets kicked? Good read. Ive been at the forums since inception, and there is truth to this too. A lot of good people did leave. There was a lull if you will. I did notice the forums becoming sluggish overt time. Prom, good to see you man, I can't believe they bounced you. Classic example of WTF. They just bounced Nanos too. I mean almost everyone that has been there since it started from the beginning seems like they are gone. At least the most vocal. If you look at most of the posters they are mostly fresh faces. There is always a turnover. Not sure if it due to moderation or what. I do think most of the mods really try to do a good job, some are really over the top and have made bad choices by letting bad people stay and getting rid of good people.
I just like to think that the turnover can maybe have some good, because if anything, at least these people are just a little bit wiser for having been part of the site or seeing the movies. Maybe I am being way to idealistic.
Now devils advocate, you know how crazy the people can get in there and if the mods did do nothing then it would get out of hand. Im not marginalizing anything, but just saying, right or wrong, people have been trying to take down the forum since day one. Not just constructive criticism mind you.
Glad to see you guys. Are you at RBEF now?
triathlon4life said this on June 18, 2010 at 3:56 pm | Reply
A lot of ex members pass through here, a few post, but as you may have seen from reading the other blogs we get spammed by the rhetoric front line.
anticultist said this on June 18, 2010 at 4:38 pm | Reply

Yes I'm at RBEF, but moderation has been a joke at TZM for a long time and has been becoming more apparent ever since and no changes have been made- so expect more hiccups from their unprofessional behavior. My brain hurts from looking at the forums now. There's no need to defend them, I feel sorry for those who go through the mental abuse everyday though. But not all ban people or unregistered people come here, they visit other websites as well such as the ones AntiCultist linked through his webpage here.
Warning: You may be labeled as a level 3 troll, I'm sure they eye this webpage all day and everyday. And when I mean "they", I mean the higher-ups and yes-men.
BranManFloMore said this on June 18, 2010 at 6:41 pm | Reply

"Now devils advocate, you know how crazy the people can get in there and if the mods did do nothing then it would get out of hand."
I would have loved to help them generate a real metaprocess to handle that problem in an adult way instead of an evil way.
Alas, they are so evil, they banned me for trying to help them.
"Im not marginalizing anything, but just saying, right or wrong, people have been trying to take down the forum since day one."
And they are despite all of their hard work and efforts now increasingly nothing more than troll bait.
Every measure they have employed so far to solve that problem has only made it worse.
In the meantime, the real solutions which I have to offer because I studied game theory and systems theory and psychology are
posted (not entirely, but I'm waiting for the conversation to start) at RBEF.
If you want a window into what real moderation and metaprocess would look like- go look.
" Not just constructive criticism mind you.
Glad to see you guys. Are you at RBEF now?"
Well, yes, I'm hanging out there and I imagine it will be my base of operations.
I'm having some hiccups at the moment... mostly due to so few people there.
prometheuspan said this on June 18, 2010 at 9:46 pm | Reply

"The one's of us who do, can forget trying to explain this - half a lifetime will wear you down like a pebble, till youre so shiny, it's water off a ducks back with the disbelief."
I know exactly what you mean. I have multiple past life memories and this was arranged as a cheat methodology so that I could have a chance of saving the humans.
I'm an old hand at evolutionary emergencies. This is about the worst I have ever faced. Previously, the double think and ability to openly lie were not such big issues, all i had to do was place solutions in front of the population.
This is much harder, because 99 percent of the population is hell bent on not listening.
I try not to open too many conversations with "hi, I'm an extra-universal alien on a mission to save your planet with dozens of detailed past life memories including ones that inform me on how to build a warp drive."
But, thats the situation frankly as it is.
I'm the doorway to the stars.
All it takes is enough people to see that and start working to receive it.
prometheuspan said this on June 18, 2010 at 9:51 pm | Reply

sheesh prom thats a little off kilter, please dont open any more conversations like that you're beginning to freak me out :D
anticultist said this on June 18, 2010 at 11:45 pm | Reply

Coocoo for Coco Puffs.
NWO Agent said this on June 20, 2010 at 2:09 pm | Reply

Quote from The Burger King

Thank you, took some time and still trying to figure out if I'm going to transfer all this over to SP blog section.

Hmm, putting all of this in the blog section would be better. Thing is, it's a big pain in the @ss, and I take this from experience of posting Muertos' stuff on here. But, it is all worth it in the end, plus you have a more "clean" archive.

To be honest mate I am just glad you managed to salvage it, as it seemed like a shame for it to all just disappear because of some butthurt conspiracy theorists. So I am cool whatever happens now it's all here for posterity.