Skeptic Project

Your #1 COINTELPRO cognitive infiltration source.

Page By Category

Forum - TVP vs TZM drama (yeah get the popcorn!) - Page 3

Tags: The Zeitgeist Movement, The Zeitgeist Cult, Edward was right, ragequit, civil war, splinter factions, choose your side, conspiracy cult, TZM Drama, Y U NO GIVE MONIES [ Add Tags ]

[ Return to The Zeitgeist Movement | Reply to Topic ]
anticultistPosted: Apr 15, 2011 - 12:13
(0)
 

Brainwashing you for money

Level: 15
CS Original

whoa post the link Matt I need to read that haha

#61 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Apr 15, 2011 - 12:14
(0)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original
#62 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
anticultistPosted: Apr 15, 2011 - 12:21
(0)
 

Brainwashing you for money

Level: 15
CS Original

OK thanks you can delete it now haha.

#63 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
EdPosted: Apr 15, 2011 - 13:31
(0)
 

Level: 10
CS Original

hahahah! Wow. Couldn't have predicted THIS... boy that's got to be embarrasing.

Btw I checked the Misc forum and I love how pookzta is still posting his crazy 911 stuff that no one there even cares about so gets no replies :D

#64 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
EdPosted: Apr 15, 2011 - 13:39
(0)
 

Level: 10
CS Original

"I talked to Jacque briefly about this when I visited TVP back in January, when he brought up similar issues, and I was a bit... confused. But he didn't say anything negative about PJ, in fact he talked a great deal about how proud he was of him and that he was doing a heck of a job with the movement. He just told me that there is a lot of weird bullshit on the forums that are not in accordance with the things he envisioned, to wit I replied that the forums are not the movement."

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=3&id=332402&limit=10&limitstart=10&Itemid=100114#332572

That... is hilarious. A Zeitgeister telling Fresco that whole "the forums/films aren't the movement" excuse

haha!

#65 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
anticultistPosted: Apr 15, 2011 - 13:43
(0)
 

Brainwashing you for money

Level: 15
CS Original

haha yeah that is pretty damn funny.

I bet Fresco was thinking 'oh fuck not that old trope...sheesh get lost son and make me some more money.'

#66 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
anticultistPosted: Apr 15, 2011 - 14:06
(0)
 

Brainwashing you for money

Level: 15
CS Original

K.
People- I'm not "going anywhere" in effect nor is The Zeitgeist Movement. The Zeitgeist Movement has existed to help TVP. If TVP doesnt want our help, we adapt.

Nothing Changes in the end.

My interest to remove myself from the forefront is not a reaction to Jacques' statements alone for I have been trying to get that done for a while; many who give talks & coordinate know I have been trying to do this for about a year. This is why I announced two weeks ago that the radio show would no longer be the "Peter Joseph..." but "ZM Global" for many others to talk. I also almost didn't attend Zday London for that reason as well.

Contrary to this idea of removing "hero" worship and the importance of not having a "cult of personality" notion... is the rhetoric now coming from TVP camp. Well, my feelings aside, their approach to make themselves the "source" of everything and demand credit will only backfire.

Also, TZM has been doing a DAMN good job of promoting this direction, with likely the largest mass following for such a thing in history, given the short time frame we have been in existence. So please don't let Fresco's comment make you feel otherwise.

At any rate, everyone please stop speculating on this and move forward!
~p
ps: and thanks for the supportive comments. I give Jacque the benefit of the doubt, of course, and think he is simply going through a strange time with perhaps some negative influences that are reducing his objectivity with poor information.

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=3&id=332402&limit=10&limitstart=100&Itemid=100114#332807

TVP are accusing TZM of having a cult of personality !!! LOL

Erm yeah OK Fresco and you arent involved in any of that are you !!! hahaha

ooh this is great.

#67 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
The Burger KingPosted: Apr 15, 2011 - 14:35
(0)
 

I can't stop posting pictures of poop, what the fuck is wrong with me?

Level: 5
CS Original

although I said I wouldn't talk about TZM/TVP I did say that if I did I'd talk in a way to not sound like a ass.

What Tanktop said

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=231&id=332402&limit=10&limitstart=90&Itemid=100114#332749

Reading through what Tanktop said I 100% agree with it all the way but do to the timing and the nature of the post I have to say this is more perceived of as a attack than criticism.

Tanktops attacks although valid should of happened before the Fresco decided to phase out Peter and TZM as it would of definitely be looked at as a TVP legitimate criticism. A possible reason why in my opinion Tanktop would attack TVP at that Jaque is because Tanktop is under contract in TZM and it of course benefits Tanktop to keep Peter in a power position so he keeps his job (can't fault Tanktop though).

Realistically here Peter/Tanktop (even though their are no leaders in TZm/TVP their; really are leaders in my opinion) should of made these claims long ago and it clearly shows a desperate person trying to keep his job in my opinion (again not faulting Tanktop for doing so just pointing out the obvious).

Questioning about Jacques work from day one as far as getting his blue prints and seeing his work is necessary and their is NO reason why not to have it. I'm sure we could dig up posts of Tanktop defending Fresco when people asked for blue prints and proof on the TZM site. For Tanktop to have completely turned 180 on TVP is because he has alterior motives. All you have to do is follow the money just like in ANY organization. VTV is probably going to stick with which ever group he can benefit the most in a monetary sense (naturally). VTV probably will pick no sides but actions speak louder than words and you'll probably see his actions be more with TZM to get his funding in my opinion. VTV will more than likely play a neutral role while attempting to mend fences but but will lean towards TZM.

TZM is looking more like a interest group at that a interest group that's lost it's ideology and faith and either needs to find a new fringe ideology to adopt, make amends with this ideology (making amends never works once the cut is their it's their forever) or it's followers will find another fringe ideology to cling to which of course would be in another group.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Peter has made some efforts to start scientific teams (we have project teams with fairly large number of members). Time and time again, the members of these teams come to me with comments such as "we can't get information from The Venus Project on what we should be doing." The standard response is to say that they were told they needed to come to Venus. Seriously, do they think they will build a new planetary system by tutoring scientists one at a time in Venus? If they want things to happen, they need to change this attitude. Jacque and Roxanne need to make public more of the designs, and set up systems where people can learn about them without having to come to Venus or buy Jacque's DVDs. If they can't do that, then someone else will, because it's imperative that we make progress before it's too late.

Although I'm not apart of RBOSE anymore I have to say you did have a good team within TZM dev at the time until they left. I remember when you called RBOSE members a bunch of retards consistently but the thing is you and Peter were a key factor for the split. A team of Dev's that wasn't paid money and did things FOR FREE. Now you have a all paid Dev team. Tanktop you don't handle situations well and this situation with TVP your not handling well at all (Can't say your the only person that doesn't handle situation well in TZM in my opinion).

Talking about change of attitude I'd have to say look in the mirror Tanktop. Speaking about progress what exactly have you done Tanktop outside of you being paid under contract by Peter to be the tech guy? I'm not attacking you but realistically as a tech guy people have noted that you didn't do much and saw you as a coordinator. I agree however that Fresco should stop pushing people to buy his DVD's and book's when people ask how can they can build TVP he should be telling them how, when what where and why build on TVP.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

I wish Tanktop would of added that "Opinions" are not a bad thing as it forms a curiosity to find the truth of a opinion but he didn't. Other than the fact I think Tanktop is doing this to keep his job (again I don't fault him) I 100% agree with his attack on TVP.

Just as a disclaimer: It may looks like I'm in some form of agreement with TZM/TVP at which I'm not. I don't believe in a RBE, I think money is good, I think the rate for technology growth is good and the reason we have is because money is a awesome incentive. The venus project is a Utopian project pie in the sky idea and the only thing that was interesting to me was that it had robots in it. At that i will not down a person for attempting to start a RBE I may even help them but I don't think their is any ONE answer to a problem and I'm the type of guy who believes their is always ways to improve and go farther.

Anyways Tanktop will probably give Peter a pep talk (to keep his job) and Peter will be back into TZM

#68 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Apr 15, 2011 - 15:16
(0)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

Criticizing Saint Fresco seems to be quite fashionable when Saint Fresco is criticizing Saint Merola.

Before this hilarious development, anyone who dared criticize Saint Fresco was instantly squashed. But now that he's talked smack about Saint Merola, all of a sudden whether or not any blueprints actually exist magically becomes a relevant question to ask. All of a sudden pointing out that Fresco's answer to every question is essentially nothing more than "give me money" is acceptable too.

Derp.

Zeitards are suddenly finding themselves asking the exact same questions about Jacque Fresco that everyone else in the world always has. Well, provided they even knew who Fresco is, which is pretty much restricted to the few thousand people who watch RussiaToday on YouTube.

Its unfortunate that the answers they come up with are so completely wrong. No one seems quite ready to contemplate that maybe, just maybe, Fresco simply ripped them off. That's probably the saddest part of it all: they simply will not even entertain the notion that they've been played. It doesn't enter the equation, just like it never entered the equation for True Believers of people like Jimmy Swaggart and Ted Haggard.

I love Merola's mental gymnastics concerning why this happened. Apparently its more likely that "negative outside influences" are responsible rather than Fresco himself. Merola once again shows what a warped view of reality he has. Everything bad that happens is always the result of vague, nameless enemies that simply don't exist.

#69 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
anticultistPosted: Apr 15, 2011 - 15:59
(0)
 

Brainwashing you for money

Level: 15
CS Original

my thoughts exactly Matt.

The reason Jacque's so wound up about Peter, is if he is no longer doing videos about The Venus Project specifically and only, or if he is not actively asking his membership to fund him with millions of dollars for his 'movie', and finally not pointing all the people to him to buy his materials and pay to visit, then Jacque simply has no more reason to be interested in Peter.

This action of him saying Peter doesnt know what its about, or the movement dont know what its about is actually brutally honest of him, because the truth of it all is this.

If Peter and the movement is not making Jacque money, then Jacque has no use for them any more...its blatantly obvious. Yet as we all know they have not got the intelligence to look at it for what it really is.

BTW liked your point about Merola using the invisible enemy usurping the relationship, thats something I had overlooked. Its a goodpoint how even he is in denial about being played and used for cash.

Also liked Bills point about Tanktop protecting his position and income with Peter. Again other points that I have been on about, Tanktop and the members would never have said anything like this before and there are posts of them defending Jacque when people [actually us] said these same things directly to them.

#70 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Apr 15, 2011 - 16:13
(0)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

I can understand Zeitards' not wanting to accept that they've simply been bent over and reamed.

Just because I'm a hardcore skeptic does not mean I've never been fooled, because I have. Everyone has at one point. We've all bought into some absurd idea that turned out to be a total farce. It sucks. Its embarrassing. It doesn't feel good. Whether it was religion, the paranormal, conspiracies or being the victim of a simple con. We've all been there and we learned from the experience.

But the difference is that True Believers, when confronted with evidence that contradicts their beliefs quite often double down on said belief rather than re-evaluate it. You can see this by looking at people who have tried out for the JREF Million Dollar Challenge and failed. Its fascinating and mind boggling. They simply will not learn because they don't want to. The Zeitardian True Believers aren't much different than the dowser who chalks his failure up to "negative energy" rather than accepting that dowsing is simply a crock of shit.

#71 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
anticultistPosted: Apr 15, 2011 - 16:19
(0)
 

Brainwashing you for money

Level: 15
CS Original

Yeah agreed being taken for a ride is certainly no fun, and its even more painful when the thing you are being taken for a ride is something that you are so passionate about that you want it to work no matter what. The probability of this matter is they will not be willing to accept they were manipulated like you say, and that is probably only down to the fact they are desperate to change the world for the better. This being the closest option to their hearts is the one they will be most unwilling to let go of and realistically they should accept they need to look elsewhere and figure another way out.

#72 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Apr 15, 2011 - 16:22
(0)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

Some of the Zeitards are actually thanking Jacque Fresco for trashing them. They genuinely think that this is Fresco's zoo anecdote put into action: Jacque is insulting them so that they will be motivated to "study" harder and become better followers.

Belief is a hell of a thing.

#73 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
anticultistPosted: Apr 15, 2011 - 16:33
(0)
 

Brainwashing you for money

Level: 15
CS Original

Yeah I just read that final post it was utterly embarassing to read.
As if someone would be willing to accept that a 95 year old grifter with no proven skill sets, education, or technical know how of the modern era was somehow a much more powerful and important person than themselves. They were willing to allow this person to demean them and cuss them out for everyone else in the world to see, and then openly suck it up and make it into a valuable personal message and lesson !

That guy needs to realise that Fresco does not actually give a fuck about him, nor are Jacques points made for other peoples best intentions, if anything they are Fresco publically humiliating them intentionally and demanding more income from them .

#74 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Omni-SciencePosted: Apr 15, 2011 - 18:25
(0)
 

Ordo Ab Chao.

Level: 8
CS Original

You know, even when I left Zeitgeist, I still was skeptical about Matt pegging Fresco as a grifter who's just looking for as much money as possible before he kicks the bucket. A little part of me thought he was just an idiotic old man with no idea of what he's doing.

But damn....

#75 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
anticultistPosted: Apr 15, 2011 - 19:10
(0)
 

Brainwashing you for money

Level: 15
CS Original

#76 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
BrentonPosted: Apr 15, 2011 - 20:56
(0)
 

Level: 0
CS Original

Biggest mistake "the movement" ever made was to adopt "the venus project" as actual ideology/framework, as opposed to political philosophy/ideology that stands on it's own without old man Jacque and an organisation, etc,.

Agreed @Omni.

And he thinks Jacque is going "through a strange time"? Oh, oh, oh my. Peter is just too willing to give him the benefit of the doubt...

#77 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
freeflyerPosted: Apr 16, 2011 - 08:53
(0)
 

Level: 0

Peter's note:
"Friends, a lot of weird talk and speculation has emerged with respect to the relationship of TVP and TZM. I work as a global coordinator for The Movement and will not be altering the need work for that.
In fact, up coming is the Zeitgeist Media Festival which should be fantastic. We already have some large celebrity interest.
Regardless, given my public position, I am subject to attack from both sides. Sadly, even people who support TVP in an often nearly blind obsessive way come up with ways to attack me due to my self-less perseverance and ability to bring this info to different circles in a productive way.
So, I want all those in this situation to remember one thing: without TZM, TVP doesn't exist - it has nothing but ideas and has no viable method to bring it to light. It takes community to do that. That is the point of The Movement. For 30 years they did little to progress. I still ask... what the hell have they been doing for 30 years?!
The problem was they need younger people who understand the zeitgeist and how to affect it, in part.
And with regard to my "lack of understanding" as was carelessly stated by Fresco. I have over 80 hours of recorded personal conversations with Jacque and 10 notebooks on him alone. In fact, I likely have the largest single documentation of this person in existence and I spent 2.5 years doing nothing but research on these issues... so I can admit I am bit insulted by the insinuation that I am "doing my own thing" irrespective of TVP.
For example, the first thing I noticed when I met them is that they have a few books and dvds... but with no technical sourcing or real details at all. It's simply too vague. My job was to un-vague it and get it truly technical/detailed- hence ZMF/Orientation Video/PDF. I think I have done that well and that info is now out there in a coherent way. Please note- I have written literally everything in TZM database online-pdf-video-website, etc.

However, as of now, since I do respect Jacque and his years are limited, I am going to also respect his grievance, regardless of how impulsive and unfounded it is- and refer all public appearances to them and we can see how well they do on their own.

My loyalty is to a train of thought...not gurus or entities... not Fresco, or anyone for that matter. Follow the data- not the people. Its the only way. Ego is the enemy of progress. If people here really want truth and a new world... it wont come from a single person or project."
----------------------------------

Also looks like his facebook account is back?!

#78 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
freeflyerPosted: Apr 16, 2011 - 08:55
(0)
 

Level: 0

Also, I personally think, Jacque is just gone senile and that is why those comments. As even if we consider this to be a money related issue, Jacque is shooting himself in the foot as TZM is his customer line.

#79 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
BrentonPosted: Apr 16, 2011 - 08:58
(0)
 

Level: 0
CS Original

"I still ask... what the hell have they been doing for 30 years?!"

LOVE. IT.

#80 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
anticultistPosted: Apr 16, 2011 - 09:02
(0)
 

Brainwashing you for money

Level: 15
CS Original

wow thats a fantastic comment from Peter [if hes said this] !

I am impressed at his comeback and brutality about Fresco.

Bring on the challenge let us see how well Fresco does on his own indeed !!!

I am almost certain him and Roxanne will fuck it up due to their inability to deal with people in a human way. I actually applaud Peter here to be truthful.

Do we have a link to this comment please ? I need to verify it was Peters own words if possible

#81 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
anticultistPosted: Apr 16, 2011 - 09:29
(0)
 

Brainwashing you for money

Level: 15
CS Original

Nevermind I have found it as a comment on this video of VTV's on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9hO0DMcJ3o

#82 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
CyborgJesusPosted: Apr 16, 2011 - 09:31
(0)
 

Level: 6
CS Original

Oh for fucks sake, why does it need some form of administrative cat fight to have honesty on TZM?

it has nothing but ideas and has no viable method to bring it to light

Yeah, as if TZM was any different.

Ego is the enemy of progress

You mean banning people for criticizing your work, or the dishonest activities of moderators, or the core strategy of the movement, because their words would make you look bad, blocks progress? Gee, I would have never realized that, thanks Peter.

#83 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
anticultistPosted: Apr 16, 2011 - 09:51
(0)
 

Brainwashing you for money

Level: 15
CS Original

I made this blog about that post:

http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2011/04/16/new-mesage-from-peter-merola-about-jacque-fresco/</p>

Yeah agree with you CJ, while Peter has been an absolute Jerk about things for years, and he can not escape this and it will not be forgotten. The plus in all of this is he has finally come to realise some truths about his own movement and Jacque Fresco/TVP finally.

#84 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Apr 16, 2011 - 10:36
(0)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

Fresco and Merola are apples and oranges when it comes to their behavior and views.

Merola is an insufferably smug True Believer, east coast art fag. Fresco is a flat out con artist who has spent his entire life ripping off gullible useful idiots. While the former isn't exactly my cup of tea, the latter is far worse.

#85 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
CyborgJesusPosted: Apr 16, 2011 - 11:46
(0)
 

Level: 6
CS Original

Don't forget his partnership with Mark Joyner.

#86 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Apr 16, 2011 - 12:13
(0)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original

Do I believe Merola genuinely wants to make the world a better place, albeit in an extremely misguided way? Yes.

Do I believe the same of Fresco? Not no, but hell no.

#87 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Apr 16, 2011 - 12:50
(0)
 

HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
CS Original

Peter was never the leader. Despite propaganda to the contrary. And everything I point out above was part of that. He would share his views just like everyone else. He of course had some authority over the website that he pays for and administrates, but it's not like he called up every chapter coordinator and gave them directions or “orders”. It's not like he wrote every single newsletter article. It's not like he did all of the planning and the speaking.

There is a clear misapprehension here between a "leader" and an absolute authoritarian actor or leviathan. The idea that a leader has absolute control over every aspect of an operation or movement is woefully incorrect, and indeed finding any such system where this is the case is nearly impossible. When we consider even the most authoritarian models of governance and control, we find that every leader, patriarch, or autocrat has, beneath him, a wide web of systematic controls that diffuse power discretely. To suggest that because someone lacks total presence in everything a movement or organization does means they are not a leader is a rather wrongheaded approach and empirically misguided. Leadership, often times, rests upon the implicit veto- simply because things take place and are allowed to take place, does not mean that the actor who engaged in such an action is truly free and that there is no leader. We see this on any website that is administrated and where ideas are supposedly disseminated. What is posted and published is done so through an implicit consent on the part of the leader who has the ability to direct and control such action. Simply because others act does not mean they act in accordance with true freedom- they act with consent. And in such models, and I would argue TZM is just such an example, there is always the directing power of the leader at hand. The directing power to create ideas and then maintain control over what those ideas are (you misinterpret what i say in this film; you may disagree, but i maintain my position; this thread is deleted because it crossed this boundary I myself feel is worthy of being defended). To say "virtually every function of the movement was already being run by other people" does not abruptly do away with this already present form of power and leadership, as such is the case for all forms of governance. The Chinese Premier does not govern in daily, human life in China- there are other cabinet members, spokesmen, police, and the like who carry on this work. The issue is that there is an implicit veto lurking everywhere in this system. It is like Foucault's biopower can be allowed to function- people govern themselves- but that the modern apparatus that instituted this homeostatic relationship can still retain the ability to strike out and correct behavior. The above quote is a flaccid argument and only serves to try and ignore the basic principles which underline organizational behavior.

#88 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
CyborgJesusPosted: Apr 16, 2011 - 12:51
(0)
 

Level: 6
CS Original

I think they both do, Fresco just has even less respect for his followers. He strikes me as the "chaotic neutral" kind of guy.

#89 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
freeflyerPosted: Apr 16, 2011 - 14:44
(0)
 

Level: 0

Yeah I agree with cyborg.

#90 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]