Skeptic Project

Good point Kaiser, its very true... they have tried to muddy the water with what a leader actually is. Exaggerating the processes a leader does to define the label 'leader' is not a very smart or honest thing to do, particularly to provide a form of unnacountability of Merola from his leadership position.

It gets better.

Latest drama: Noel (Tanktop) quits TZM, rages at Fresco. Merola, in (predictably) supportive response, reveals that he has demanded an apology from Roxanne Meadows, which has not been forthcoming.

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=231&id=333146&Itemid=100114

The splinter is almost complete. It seems there will be a conspiracy-driven Zeitgeist faction, and a Fresco-driven Venus Project faction. Merola's faction will probably take the lion's share of the members, because of course most Zeitgeist Movement members are conspiracy theorists whose allegiances run deeper to Merola than they do to Fresco. Now the two groups will duel for legitimacy and each will focus on the other as the embodiment of evil that is preventing their mutual RBE fantasies from coming true.

This weekend has been really, really fascinating. I'm very interested to see how this is going to play out.

Last time I tried to apologize to Tanktop he didn't accept it :*(***

Tanktop is a nut I think I'm convinced that Tanktop was the one who said he "wanted to hurt me" in a irc chat I had with him and not some random person now but whatever I could take him. He's to sensitive and impulsive and it's showing. How long is VTV going to cling to TZM for? I suppose he'll cling the longest since he's got nothing else better to do. In my opinion if vtv goes away you got like 70% of the problem gone from TZM/TVP not saying ti still isn't bad it's just less bad.

Also Peter's letter to TVP reminds me of the RBOSE letter to Peter. I think maybe I should slip a copy of the "RBOSE letter to Peter" to Roxxane and Fresco in a e-mail possibly not to stir up anything but to show groups within TZM felt the same as them and it had some nice data inside of it showing how Peter is the leader of TZM.

Found the RBOSE letter on youtube for anybody wanting to look at what was sent to Peter. Just for anybodies information I'm no longer apart of RBOSE anymore.

RBOSE letter to Peter Joseph Merola in pdf:
http://www.4shared.com/document/eOt2Mebf/Letter_To_Peter.html</p>

here is a link to peters reply to RBOSE letter:
http://www.4shared.com/document/P4NaQPdw/Peters_Reply_to_the_Letter.html</p>

Again not trying to fuel the fire simply stating my opinion.

@[Judas] losing Tanktop isn't such a big deal from personal experience I've never seen Tanktop nor talked to Tanktop in any of the dev meetings that use to be held in mumble. Back in the day (a year or so ago) we would talk about Tanktop and we never knew exactly what he did besides coordinate people into other areas.

For example Tanktop would take a guy whose a actual active developer and place him with another guy that's full of ideas and tell them to work together but we've never seen Tanktop really do anything developmental wise. Tanktop would then go into these private global meters with Peter Joseph, some guy called Apollo, few other people, and take credit for other peoples works which made a few people a bit mad at him but they just shrugged it off. Talk about transparency ehhhh?

Tanktop was trying to win back some of the active dev's within RBOSE but eventually got sick of them and their demands so he put them on a global ban list on the forums for starting another group called RBOSE.

Tanktop is also the guy that shut down the TZM irc because he couldn't work it nor find another 16 year old kid to work it for him. Such is the case as Tanktop hired (for free) a guy called anarchy to to the TZm IRC eventually anarchy intentionally crash the IRC server into the ground which I give sympathy towards people in TZM who had to put up with that crap. The thing is you don't hire 16 year olds and put them into such positions at that I know Anarchy and I wouldn't trust the kid with anything... A IRC server isn't that hard to put up and run yet Tanktop couldn't manage to do that even getting paid under contract by Peter. Yet a 16 year old can?

I am loving this, it's so fun to watch. So much of what people on this site and others have been saying for so long is being proven true.

Welcome to the club. Literally hundreds of people gave their blood, sweat and tears, since the 1960’s, to help make Fresco’s dream possible. Once these followers are parted with their money, their services are no longer required, and they are dumped, and he leaves town.

This statement is taken from one of the founding members of the Venus project, he was one of the handful of people who established sociocyberneering inc in the 1970's with Fresco, Meadows and others with financial donations to buy land and help build on it.
It transpired that Fresco sold the land and cut all the people who donated to it out and then went to buy his venus land.

As you can see fresco has done the very same thing to TZM here, Fresco has got his income from them and because Peter and TZM do not see any point in generating millions more for him to fund Frescos 'movie' he has decided they are of no more use to him and has called them out and publicly dumped them. I like to think of the Fresco movie as another scam of Frescos to turn a profit from people, he would more likely sell the assets or take control of the funds and then use them for another profiting purchase for his own and meadows benefit.

The guy who made the above statement on my blog arrived out of the blue and told me all kinds of things about Frescos background and history in private messages, stuff which can not be published as it will expose him. All you really need to know is he predicted this would happen in his communications, he stated that Fresco would use these kids for their free labour and donations/advertising to increase his revenue stream. Then when that revenue stream began to dwindle or TZM started to question the revenue stream or stopped providing it, Fresco would dump them on the roadside like he did all previous people who have done the same thing in the past.

This person who told me this lost a substantial ammount of money to Fresco, and we are not talking about a chump change donation to buy a few DVD's here, we are talking about financing a plot of land worth hundreds of thousands of dollars today with a small group of people.

So let this be warning to any TZM member reading this, you were warned by my blog and the ex member and if you refuse to pay attention to it now then you deserve all you get for being a sucker.

Read some of his published comments in their entirity here:

http://anticultist.wordpress.com/2010/04/14/tvp-ex-1970-1980s-member-speaks/

Zeitgeister admits Fresco has held back on his designs and is trying to brainwash people:

Jaque has been hiding his most important work since he started, I wonder if he ever realized that if somebody actually 'exploited' his works in a commercial way, he would be doing him a favour to go in the trouble of actually implementing it, furthermore it would end up so sustainable(according to his teachings) that money would end up being unnecessary due to the access/abundance of such cities.

If this teaches us something, I think it is to leave the work to younger people when you are 95. If anyone arrives at that age somehow.

Jaque is senile, grumpy, unreasonable and repetitive. Sometimes I feel he is trying to brainwash people, but then I remember the majority of grandpas repeat stories over and over again until exhaustion, and they rarely agree with younger people, because "they know more". Even if one just repeats what he just said, but because it came out of one's mouth, it is no longer valid.

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=231&id=333146&limit=10&limitstart=10&Itemid=100114#333267

Wow. Total validation of what we've been saying about this guy.

Punks are still defending Fresco in there like it was fine of him to abandon them and all they have done for his business income.

It boils down to finances, Peter criticised frescos movie and refused to back it up, Fresco didnt like it so said that peter and TZM were useless and did not know a thing. Peter retaliated, tanktop retaliated, and still the brainwashed zombies can not see it.

This really is online entertainment, because you have a few people beginning to realise they have been taken for a ride at the top, and all the peons clueless as usual to the ramifications of whats happened, and the reality of why it has all happened.

That thread and the original one they locked discussing the Fresco video covers almost every point we have all criticised about them which they all denied existed or refused to be true for years.

Suddenly the following things are all truths and allowed to be said by followers :
Fresco is senile
Fresco is ignorant
Fresco does not have information
Fresco does not have any validity to modern life
Fresco does not have the technical knowledge or details
Fresco is a cult leader brainwashing people
There is a cult of personality in TZM/TVP
The movement actually has leaders
The TVP movie is a complete waste of money and effort

The only remaining point they have yet to address is the fact they have all been ripped off monetarily.

Enjoy this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CsUWk_U5JY

here you go Bill:

Peters comments:
comment 1:

Hello Everyone.
TVP Movie is a project which TVP has talked about for many years - long before I met them and I am in full support of it in general.

However, after much consideration, I find the financial necessity too extreme to be rational to become an Official ZM Project.

TZM was founded, in part, on the idea of using money only when needed and to make such projects very time specific and direct. We have yet to have such a need. While we have a banner for the VP film and show basic support, I am personally not pushing the issue more so due to the extremity of the project.

As a person who has worked in the industry for many years and on many feature productions (not my crappy z films), I know for a fact that the kind of money they require to remain independent in this is very extreme. The odds of that money being generated from TZM community is very slim.

I have been open with them on this issue and suggested they use what money they have to, say, get a script finalized or the like. But - then it would need to go to the studio submission stage. They need the film picked up by a studio that can afford the 30-50 million needed. They need real render farms worth millions to get just the 3d going they require. A real studio.

Those points aside, I would also like everyone to consider the following:

1) Most major Hollywood productions have a public life of 6-8 months at best. We live in a short attention span culture. A single film - even if a "blockbuster" has a low probability of keeping such attention in a way that could really make an impact over time. [Avatar? whats that?]

2) It has been stated that the profits from the film would go towards the City Test System. Film profitability is also a risky, uncertain area. In many cases a studio spends 50 million on a film and 20 million on promo.. and they are lucky to make that money back after many, many years.
Given the 100s of millions or even billions needed to begin a city system, it is a bit overly optimistic to assume that such money will be generated from a mere single film release. (For example, even with the popularity of the Z series, I need to sell 80,000 DVDs of Moving Forward to just break even for material costs. At the given rate, it will be many years before this occurs given my model)

3) Let's assume, magically, 10 million or so was raised for this film via direct donation. Given the points above, wouldn't it be more beneficial to use that amount of money for direct, active technical expressions? Or funding for group research on certain issues? Or more deliberate, targeted PR campaigns?

Do you all really think another, single movie will change the world?

So, I leave you with those points. I love TVP and very much want to see Jacque's vision come to life... but I also want to see it actually get done... and in a proper, responsible way. Of course, I trust them completely. Any donations they do get will invariably go to a good cause one way or another… but I must voice my basic concern on the subject of donations for the "feature film".

As for me, I am working to find them real investors/studio contacts. Otherwise, it simply isn't going to happen on the scale/time frame they are interested in.

I am not here to direct anyone- if you want to donate to the Film Project do so and good for you- but given we will need to eventually use our fund-raising interests for more tangible issues in the future (perhaps for ZDay 2012), I am not personally advocating TVP's Film as an Official ZM project as a focus… though I do show passive support for the idea in general, of course.

It is simply too expensive to pull off and such large amounts of money could be used for better purposes.

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=231&id=327074&limit=10&limitstart=100&Itemid=100114#332250

comment 2

HI Luke,
I think I need to restate some basic issues as I see a tendency to misunderstand/emotionally distort.

>It is a COMBINATION of FACTORS . . . . ever-changing factors . . . . key components and conditions . . . people . . . financial backing . . . understandings . . timing . . . that evolves, and needs constant direction.

Important factors - factors & conditions which CONTRIBUTED - in the very astronomical exposure, and popularity of Peter's original Zeitgeist film . . .<

Agreed. But I am speaking on the core financial requirements only. If the goal for the fund-raising was 200,000$ then I would see the merit in donations.

>Peter DID NOT originally intend to create the Zeitgeist content - to CHANGE THE WORLD . . . but it has . . it HAS changed peoples lives . . . . and he created this work - AT A PRICE. He had to come up with money - to make it happen, and to continue it's usage & display. He is in NO way monetarily wealthy - but he had the fierce determination, intent - and belief in HIMSELF - to make it manifest. And so it does . . . and has continued . . evolved . . and WILL continue to do so . .<

The issue is the matter of degree. Going from 200k to 2 million to 20 million is quite the extension. This isn't about the issue of money/cost itself… it is about the extremity of it and the complexity of obtaining it in the current climate. And to restate a truly valid point: I think there would be much more productive uses for millions of dollars than another movie.

>Oh. My entire understanding was that the Zeitgeist movement was entirely created with a sole purpose . . . to support the aims and goals of The Venus Project. It was created to be the activist ARM of TVP . . . an active, visible EXTENSION of the aims and goals of TVP.<

TVP means a RBE. TZM is working for a RBE. We support the aims and goals- yes. But not necessarily large commercial projects on the vast financial scale as proposed.

>When the very PURPOSE for which the EFFORT was created - ends up GETTING LOST - in horeshit politics, or little rules - of who's in charge in the organization . . . or the ideologies others project - into the true meaning of the effort . . . .<

You are seeing what you want to see. People keep asking my view on the movie- there it is. If you are not mature enough to see me a single person with a train of thought… and rather derail the topic by implying that this is "political" or the like, you are only hurting yourself.

>All this - and this statement from Peter . . . . it seems like a repeat . . . . that which it was most opposed - has risen to rule. Self appointed management, rules, and hoops to JUMP THROUGH - or else. It should ALWAYS be a concern to - PETER - and ALL those - in positions - with TZM - that this never happens - RIGHT?<

This is an issue of 1) Feasibility 2) Practically. There are no "Hoops". How about we start project to generate 10 billion dollars to build a city system? You think that's a practical and feasible thing to seek public donations at the current stage of our movement? The film is the in the same camp.

>
I have watched - as this movement has increasingly become MORE OF ITSELF - . . . it's identity . . it's management . . bigger . . bigger . . and seemingly further and further away from TVP developments . . . closeness . . . and direct connectivity - to TVP. I have watched - as alliances form - and people alienated - . . . .<

Not sure what you mean. What TVP "developments" are you speaking of? The World Tour? The tour that was facilitated by caring ZM groups all over the world? The Movement is about communication and TVP is about Fresco's designs/blueprints. You might need to recalibrate your view on this issue. TZM has facilitated the spreading of TVP and a RBE more than anything out there.

>"The odds of that money being generated from TZM community is very slim."

--Like going to the moon? Like a cure for cancer. Like a world without money?--<

Making a movie isn't going to the moon, curing cancer. This is why I state that if million were ever raised they should go to non-temporal projects which can assist in real technical development or the like.

>1) "Most major Hollywood productions have a public life of 6-8 months at best. We live in a short attention span culture. A single film - even if a "blockbuster" has a low probability of keeping such attention in a way that could really make an impact over time. [Avatar? whats that?]"

---You mean like "It's a wonderful Life? . . . . The 10 Commandments? . . . . .The Wizard of OZ? . . . 2001 a space odyssey?
Zeitgeist?<

Do this: Calculate the % of the number of films made in the 20th century that have the public life of "The Wizard of OZ".
You are dealing with low low probability and it would be different if the film's budget wasn't so extensive. If I had a million dollars, I would make 10 films, for example, so the public would be continually reminded over time. Dropping 20-30 million on a single film in this climate, given what that money could be used for otherwise, if raised, is not practical today… unless it is comes from a funder/studio who can spare it.

>-----Do you all really think another, single movie will change the world?

Arrrggghhh! How dare Peter say this. Is he in some kind of terrible mood? Do you REALLY think Gandhi made a difference? Or a mythic identity named Jesus - made a difference of the lives people had to, or were forced to live??<

A movie isn't Gandhi and since I have made 3 I know the minor impact single releases have in the long run. In one ear out the other for most… this is why our approach needs to be longterm--- not the seeking of "home runs" or putting all eggs in one basket financially.

>This question is almost - belittling . . . belligerent and . . . ugh! "Do you really think" . . . it's almost the same as - "people are saying" . . . .
the emperor has clothes - only stupid people can't see them . . . . . .?????????????????<

It is at this stage that I question why I have spent so much time writing this as your emotional instability is mounting. The question I ask is about the practicality of spending millions on a film that has a low probability of accomplishing what is sought both from an awareness and fundraising standpoint. It is an honest question which I suggest you actually objectively consider before allowing your brain to blinker it out for your own bias.

>---So, I leave you with those points. I love TVP and very much want to see Jacque's vision come to life... but I also want to see it actually get done---

>So to inflect or insinuate that it WON'T get done in this way . . . . discrediting???????

Single donation will not accomplish their goal alone. That is my point. If you don't believe that- then we will wait and see. But please silence your idiotic attacks or implications of me performing acts of "discrediting".

>---... and in a proper, responsible way.

Insinuation that the movie fund raising is not responsible. Just casting hopes to the wind? An irresponsible action and effort??<

Open ended, non-target based public donations for a project with such heavy financial requirements is not responsible from the standpoint of expedience. As stated before, not only do I think the money could be better applied to stronger projects- the expectation of this kind of money coming from ZM members (yes- they are the core pool of donators here at this time) is low prob. based on all the donation based schemes for film productions I have ever seen.

>Yes - only when you decided to post - did this thread topic - go to the top - to be always visible . . . . . which it should have been - from the beginning - and it probably should have been started - by Peter. It is the latest effort by The Venus Project - and that should be precedent - in TZM efforts.<

Are you high? This thread was stickyed before I commented and I didn't sticky it.

As far as the rest of your lazy, often offensive and dogmatic responses- I suggest you take pause as I will not be responding to such thoughtless comments and insinuations in the future.

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=231&id=327074&limit=10&limitstart=130&Itemid=100114#332523

Admin locking thread and saying:

Until a formal, public apology is made to TZM for Fresco's current comments, TZM Global will no longer facilitate fiscal support for TVP (which it has been doing, without demand or question, for almost three years).

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&func=view&catid=231&id=327074&limit=10&limitstart=170&Itemid=100114#333348

I just wanted to say how hilarious this entire thing is.

I wonder how all those goofballs who got Venus Project tattoos feel now.

Oh man, what a nerd.

I'm just laughing harder and harder at this whole thing.

Bill, go sit in a corner.